Why can't Chris Benoit apply the Sharpshooter correctly?

[PlatynumX420]

. Benoit applies it probably exactly the same as Sting does.

I might be wrong but i always thought Sting's scorpion deathlock used the opposite leg that the sharpshooter uses and that was what made it different than a sharpshooter.

As far as the topic I always thought anyone using the sharpshooter other than Bret or Owen looked very sloppy,especially when The Rock used it, but i always figured that was because it was their trademark submission move and everyone else uses it as a secondary submission move.

This hold was first popularized by New Japan Pro Wrestling star Riki Chōshū, who called it the Sasori-gatame (Scorpion hold), so named because the move bends the wrestler's legs over his back in a shape that resembles a scorpion's tail.

In North America, it was first popularized by Sting in the National Wrestling Alliance and later World Championship Wrestling, under the name Scorpion Deathlock.

earlier parts of the article suggest sting didn't invent the move it was The NJPW guy.

 

[Afro-Ameri-Spawn]

Why is it that Chris Benoit can't put this move on correctly? By correctly, I'm using Bret Hart's Sharpshooter, the man who put the Sharpshooter on the map to WWF fans, as the reference. When Benoit does it, it looks sloppy and not very painful. To use as reference, I've included two pictures.

Notice the differences? Positioning of the opponents legs (Benoit with the ankles together, Hart with the ankle under a knee, while Hart cranks on the knee) and Hart sits down on his to prevent escape or loosening of the pressure, while Benoit stands straight up and doesn't put very much pressure on the move at all.


So, what is the difference? Why does Benoit, who trained with Stu Hart if I'm not mistaken, not apply the Sharpshooter correctly?

Actually, and I truly mean no disrespect, but this is a no brainer. It's called a
VERSION" of a finisher. It's no different than when Jericho used the Boston Crab or when Muhamed Hassan used the Camel Clutch or even when Chris Masters uses the Full Nelson. Nobody can pull off a move like the guys who you first saw do it. Nobody does a powerbomb like Sid Vicious or Danny Spivey and nobody does submission moves like they used to be done either. Plain and simple.

 

[Slyfox696]

About the picture Slyfox...how does Chavo leaning up change the fact that Benoit is still crouching and sitting on him, just like Bret Hart does?

Look at the degree of angle with Harts knees. They are at an almost perfect 90 degree angle. Benoit is at about a 120 degree angle. He's NOT sitting down on Chavo. I don't know how you can continue to argue this.

And yes actually you were correct, because it's Benoit, it looks painful.

This is just plain silly. Even the greatest wrestlers can perform moves that don't like particularly painful.

Benoit uses the move perfectly, always has, always will. I think you really just started this thread because of all the criticism about John Cena's STFU, which looks about as painful as a flick to the chest.

I want you to watch the following three video clips. One is Sting, one is Benoit, and the other is Hart. I want you to explain how Benoit or Sting's looks exactly like Hart's. Hart cinches it up differently, and sits down much further on it.

Sting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o68kCmRgo2o
Benoit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plLtgPLRX0c (about 30 seconds in)

Bret Hart: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHfrPpxDN4g


If you still say all three look the same, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Because very clearly they are not cinched in the same, nor are they executed the same. Also notice in the Bret Hart clip, how Bret is sitting all the way down on Austin, so Austin couldn't prop himself up on his elbows, like Chavo does in the Benoit pic.

And, this has nothing to do with John Cena. I assure you, I have wrestling thoughts independent of him, particularly with Bret Hart . I just noticed the other night (I think it was Raw) how Benoit applied a "Sharpshooter" and remember thinking how piss poor it looked.

It's fine if it is a different move that is just given the wrong name by the announcers or the WWE. I'll excuse Benoit for that. But....


On a side note, I'll get my 15 year old brother to help me see if Hart's Sharpshooter and Benoit's Sharphooter feel any different, particularly in the knees, next time I see him.

Actually, and I truly mean no disrespect, but this is a no brainer. It's called a
VERSION" of a finisher. It's no different than when Jericho used the Boston Crab

Except that Jericho didn't use a true Boston Crab, he used a modified Boston Crab, and gave it a different name. He didn't try to pass his move off as the Boston Crab.


That's kind of what I'm talking about.

 

[ExtremeIronChef]

From those three videos I can honestly say that Bret Hart's version looks the most painful, because it looks as if Hart's ass is touching Austin's lower back, keeping him from being able to get up at all. Benoit and Sting usually never sit all the way down on the opponent's back like Hart did, though Sting did it occasionally. But that was Bret's finishing manuver. Benoit's is the Crossface, so very rarely will a Benoit match end with the Sharpshooter, another reason why he doesn't sit down all the way, allowing his opponent to get to the ropes. Sting used it as his finisher but even he didn't sit down all the way most of the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNOyIGAGilE

He sits down in this video. Hogan vs Sting Starrcade 97. Near the end of the video.

But if we're debating whether or not Benoit can do it as well as Hart, maybe we should also ask if Hart did it as well as Riki Chōshū. If he truly invented the move then wouldn't his be the original and most likely the best?

 

[X]

I still don't understand how you're honestly trying to tell me that Benoit isn't sitting on Chavo. He very clearly is, just because Chavo is perched up on his elbows and Benoit's angle isn't perfectly 90 degrees or whatever, doesn't change the fact that Benoit's ass is on Chavo's ass. Therefore, he is sitting on him. What else would you call it when you plop your ass down on somebody? We're not talking about the execution of the move here, he very clearly IS sitting down on him and I don't understand how you can argue that.

Yes, even the best wrestlers can foul up moves and make them look silly, that's not what I was saying. I'm strictly speaking about submission moves, and even if Benoit did an STFU it would still look painful as hell because it's Chris Benoit. His gimmick is that he's one of if not the greatest submission wrestler of all time. Just like Austin is known as the greatest brawler of all time. Austin's punches didn't always look too well executed, but because it was Austin it always looked like he was beating the shit out of his opponent. I'm not saying Benoit always applies submission moves correctly or painfully, but it still appears painful because of his reputation. You get what I'm saying?

And really if you get down to it...you should be asking why Bret Hart can't apply the move correctly, because the Sharpshooter/Scorpion Deathlock was originally done without sitting on their opponent and with the opposite leg. So really, Hart never applied it correctly, so to compare the move with Hart's version of it wouldn't be fair, you need to compare it to Sting & Chosu's version, and if you do that they are almost exactly the same. Therefore, he applies the move correctly.

 

[The Untouchable RPJ]

I see where you coming from but i think bret always did right cause looking at him do looks like it hurt alot and plus when you sit on the person that applys more pressure belive me the times i do i make sure i sit to damage the back. when beniot does it reminds me of sting completely they both do it wrong at least in my eyes

 

[X]

But how can the person who originated the move perform it wrong? That makes no sense at all. That's like saying the Rock does the Rock Bottom wrong because he doesn't do it like Booker T does with the Book-End. It makes no sense. I'm not saying Bret's version of the move was inferior or looked weak, but it was applied very differently from the originators of the move, Sting & Chosu. Therefore, Hart didn't apply it correctly if you want to be picky about it(which is the point of this thread). Hart did it wonderfully and it always looked awesome, but he didn't do the move as it was originally intended to be used, he altered it, albeit very slightly.

 

[debisib]

bret looks the best, but give benoit a break, he does it better than anyone else aside from bret.
order of how good it looks...
1. bret
2. benoit
3. shawn
4. shane
5. sting
6. rock- sux ass

 

[Slyfox696]

I still don't understand how you're honestly trying to tell me that Benoit isn't sitting on Chavo.

If Benoit was truly sitting down on Chavo, and cranking back on the legs like he was supposed to, there is no possible way that Chavo could get on his elbows. If Benoit sits down on the butt, or the small of the back like Hart, then it is physically impossible to raise yourself like Chavo is. Because your legs are gone, so you can only use your arms to raise, not only yourself and Benoit, but also to raise the middle of the back from which you have nothing to push against. At best, you raise yourself from the chest up. Which only valleys your back more and is more painful. If Benoit was apply it correctly, and sitting all the way down on it, it would be impossible to raise yourself like Chavo has. Don't believe me? Try it. Get a friend to hold your legs and sit down on the small of your back. Try and force yourself up while he tries to hold you down. See how well that works.

Yes, even the best wrestlers can foul up moves and make them look silly, that's not what I was saying. I'm strictly speaking about submission moves, and even if Benoit did an STFU it would still look painful as hell because it's Chris Benoit. His gimmick is that he's one of if not the greatest submission wrestler of all time. Just like Austin is known as the greatest brawler of all time. Austin's punches didn't always look too well executed, but because it was Austin it always looked like he was beating the shit out of his opponent. I'm not saying Benoit always applies submission moves correctly or painfully, but it still appears painful because of his reputation. You get what I'm saying?

Then The Great Khali must be the greatest ass-kicker in the WWE, because one chop wipes someone out. And that is his gimmick, to wipe people out with one chop, so he is the greatest ass-kicker in the WWE, maybe in history.

And really if you get down to it...you should be asking why Bret Hart can't apply the move correctly, because the Sharpshooter/Scorpion Deathlock was originally done without sitting on their opponent and with the opposite leg. So really, Hart never applied it correctly, so to compare the move with Hart's version of it wouldn't be fair, you need to compare it to Sting & Chosu's version, and if you do that they are almost exactly the same. Therefore, he applies the move correctly.

Then, if he applied it differently from the Deathlock, and gave it a different name, then it wouldn't be the same move, now would it? I mean, is the Walls of Jericho and the Boston Crab the same move? Would you say that Chris Jericho is using the Boston Crab incorrectly? No. So it goes with Hart. It's different from the Deathlock, with a different name, so how can Bret be wrong?

But how can the person who originated the move perform it wrong?

Exactly. Bret Hart, by your own admission now, created a different move, albeit it only slightly, gave it a different name, and thus created a new move, or at least a modified version of the original. But, he didn't perform it wrong, because he invented, and the move he used was called the Sharpshooter.

But, that's not what we have with Benoit. Benoit is using a Deathlock, which you already have admitted is a different move, but it is called the Sharpshooter. He doesn't perform his Sharpshooter like Bret did, so clearly, he is using the wrong move.

Now, if they wanted to call it the Scorpion Deathlock, since that is the move Benoit is doing, then he would be performing the move correctly. But, he's trying to perform the Sharpshooter, which is a different move mind you, which was originated and named by Bret Hart, so Benoit is doing the Sharpshooter incorrectly.


So, Chris Benoit applies the Sharpshooter incorrectly.

 

[PlatynumX420]

Exactly. Bret Hart, by your own admission now, created a different move, albeit it only slightly, gave it a different name, and thus created a new move, or at least a modified version of the original. But, he didn't perform it wrong, because he invented, and the move he used was called the Sharpshooter.

Performing a variation of a move isn't creation of a new move.By that logic the Walls of Jericho is a new move? Yeah right. Its a modified (aka variation ) of a Boston Crab. Its not a new move and Jericho didn't invent it.He may have been the one who made that variation(i dont have a clue as to that)but he didn't reinvent the wheel ,so to speak,he just refined it to his personal use/needs w/e. Same with Bret and the sharpshooter/scorpion hold/scorpion deathlock. Bret didn't invent nothing.He changed it around and customized to suit him.

 

[Wrestlefan73]

Yeah actually Wrestlefan, the Peoples Elbow was just an elbow drop, and that too looked about as painful as a flick to the chest, as does the STFU, I was most certainly not being sarcastic about that. The STFU is one of the worst looking moves I've ever seen a wrestler use, ever.

And yeah, Benoit was trained by Stu Hart...nobody said he wasn't. But Stu Hart didn't teach him the Sharpshooter, Benoit picked it up after Bret Hart started using it AFTER Sting started using it. Sting invented the move, and Bret Hart learned the move from Konnan. So, whats your point? Stu Hart never taught anybody the sharpshooter because the move wasn't even invented yet when he trained Benoit & Hart. Sting invented it, nobody else, everyone who has used it since has taken it from Sting, and I mean that in the best way.

I was referring to "aerandir" who made a post here. #4 as a matter of fact when he stated to the person that started this thread that Benoit was not trained by Stu Hart. THAT was my point. But no worries, you were probably too busy looking for "double posts" to notice that.

 

[Slyfox696]

Performing a variation of a move isn't creation of a new move.By that logic the Walls of Jericho is a new move? Yeah right. Its a modified (aka variation ) of a Boston Crab. Its not a new move and Jericho didn't invent it.He may have been the one who made that variation(i dont have a clue as to that)but he didn't reinvent the wheel ,so to speak,he just refined it to his personal use/needs w/e. Same with Bret and the sharpshooter/scorpion hold/scorpion deathlock. Bret didn't invent nothing.He changed it around and customized to suit him.

Yes, but would you say that Chris Jericho is doing the Boston Crab incorrectly? And, anybody that proceeds to use the "Walls of Jericho" from here on out, but proceeds to sit down on it, would you not claim that they were doing the Walls incorrectly?

Let's put it in laymen's terms. Take Pepsi. Let's say they tried to remove all the calories of Pepsi. Isn't Diet Pepsi a new soda? Is it the same as regular Pepsi? Sure, it's made by the same company, and ideally has a similar taste, but it is still a different soda.

That's what is happening with The Walls/Sharpshooter.

 

[PlatynumX420]

Yes, but would you say that Chris Jericho is doing the Boston Crab incorrectly? And, anybody that proceeds to use the "Walls of Jericho" from here on out, but proceeds to sit down on it, would you not claim that they were doing the Walls incorrectly?

No,that's his version of the move and we re all supposed to get that. As for someone else using the Walls but actually doing a boston crab who said it was a Walls of Jericho? The wrestler or the announcers? I m gonna put blame on the announcers.Regardless of what the move is or not the wwe announcers are gonna use terms wwe fans already know for a move. I.E. why they call it a sharpshooter when someone could actually be doing the Scorpion version.

Let's put it in laymen's terms. Take Pepsi. Let's say they tried to remove all the calories of Pepsi. Isn't Diet Pepsi a new soda? Is it the same as regular Pepsi? Sure, it's made by the same company, and ideally has a similar taste, but it is still a different soda.

Is it a new soda? No,its based upon pepsi but with a different result desired(lower calories or w/e).And no it's not the same as a regular pepsi,it's a variation based upon something already established,much like the sharpshooter based on but only slightly different from the scorpion hold/scorpion deathlock. There is no new invention to any of this.Diet Pepsi differs from regular pepsi only in the sweetener ;nothing new invented there except some manmade sweetener that ll probably kill you while not having any calories that they use instead of the regular sweetener.A new soda would be Pepsi already being estabished and along comes Mountain Dew. Sharpshooter differs from Scorpion hold/deathlock in which leg the opponent's legs get wrapped around again nothing new there.Probably just a preference for a leftie or a rightie (handedness)as to what leg they use to do the move.

 

[Crow1]

Because Benoit doesn't usually use it as a finisher. If he sat down all the way, "there would be no way of getting out" Hart used it as a finisher, and if you notice when hart doesn't use it to finish his opponent, he looks like benoit. he gives his opponent the opportunity to move to the rope, like benoit.

 

[Afro-Ameri-Spawn]

Except that Jericho didn't use a true Boston Crab, he used a modified Boston Crab, and gave it a different name. He didn't try to pass his move off as the Boston Crab.


That's kind of what I'm talking about.

If you watch Jericho later on, during his WWE days, he used less modification on the move and used a full application of the Boston Crab, as you can see in the pic above.

 

[Slyfox696]

No,that's his version of the move and we re all supposed to get that. As for someone else using the Walls but actually doing a boston crab who said it was a Walls of Jericho? The wrestler or the announcers? I m gonna put blame on the announcers.Regardless of what the move is or not the wwe announcers are gonna use terms wwe fans already know for a move. I.E. why they call it a sharpshooter when someone could actually be doing the Scorpion version.

The Sharpshooter and Scorpion are clearly different moves. I thought that issue has already been put to rest.

And, the other wrestler using the Walls was merely a hypothetical. To the best of my knowledge, no one else has done it.

Sharpshooter differs from Scorpion hold/deathlock in which leg the opponent's legs get wrapped around again nothing new there.Probably just a preference for a leftie or a rightie (handedness)as to what leg they use to do the move.

It differs in other ways as well. For example, the opponents leg thats not going to be grabbed is placed lower generally on the second leg, with the ankle up more by the calf or under the knee. In the Scorpion, the legs are placed ankle to ankle. In addition, on the Scorpion, Sting only uses one arm to hold in the lock, where as in the Sharpshooter, Bret usually used is other hand to hold the knee, theoretically providing further cranking on the knee. They are different moves.

 

[Cangri]

First off, the Sharpshooter was invented by Konnan. He was the one who showed Bret Hart how to do the move.

Second, Chris Benoit does his variation of the sharpshooter because people were complaining that the move hurt their backs. It is the same reason why Chris Jericho could not use the Liontamer like he did in WCW.

Third, how dare you insult Benoit in any way. Benoit would make Chuck Norris look like crap, let alone Bret Hart.

 

[Slyfox696]

First off, the Sharpshooter was invented by Konnan. He was the one who showed Bret Hart how to do the move.

Actually, we've already established that Riki Chosu was the first to use the Deathlock. Now, we don't know how the Sharpshooter itself came to be. But, since Bret was the first to use it, then he set the standard for it.

Second, Chris Benoit does his variation of the sharpshooter because people were complaining that the move hurt their backs. It is the same reason why Chris Jericho could not use the Liontamer like he did in WCW.

This is the type of answer I've been looking for since my opening post. I know someone else mentioned to, just saying.

Third, how dare you insult Benoit in any way. Benoit would make Chuck Norris look like crap, let alone Bret Hart.

Insult Benoit? How is it an insult? He uses it improperly, as you yourself have already admitted. How is that an insult?

Besides, what makes Chris Benoit impervious to criticism? What makes him above bashing? Not that I am in any way, I'm just saying we can critically analyze Benoit just like we do for anyone else.

 

[RDoubleU]

I found this on wikipedia, for those who are interested.

"While Bret Hart is the wrestler with whom the Sharpshooter is synonymous, it was actually Sting who first popularized the move in the United States while working for WCW. Called the "Scorpion Deathlock", Sting used the move as his submission finisher throughout his career, particularly during the era when Hart was still a tag team wrestler (with the Hart Foundation) and not using the Sharpshooter in any of his matches. The one notable difference between both wrestlers' use of the move is that Sting would cross his opponent's legs over his own right leg, while Hart would use his left leg.
The move's most popular name in North America, Sharpshooter, was made popular by the World Wrestling Federation star Bret "The Hitman" Hart. Konnan originally taught him the Sharpshooter.[1] Hart originally referred to the move as the Scorpion Deathlock.[2]"

Both [1] and [2] were cited from Bret's DVD "The best there is, The best there was, The best there ever will be"

 

[PlatynumX420]

The Sharpshooter and Scorpion are clearly different moves. I thought that issue has already been put to rest.

clearly different moves?

Theres 3 pix of Bret doing the sharpshooter different.and the only pic of sting doing the deathlock. Notice how with the exception of sting using his right leg Bret and Sting have the opponent on the mat the same way in the same hold?
How are they not the same move only difference being which leg used?
I bet you also believe an RKO,twist of fate and the diamond cutter arent the same move too right?

Hart originally referred to the move as the Scorpion Deathlock.[2]"[/B]

Both [1] and [2] were cited from Bret's DVD "The best there is, The best there was, The best there ever will be"

If Bret even originally refered to it as the as Scorpion Deathlock isnt that him pretty much admitting it's the same move?

 

[JoshK1985]

Who cares how Chris Benoit puts on a sharp shooter? I mean c'mon people is it that important??? It's not like it is even his finishing move. Hell, I rather call it the scorpion deathlock... I mean why don't we talk about Benoit becoming the next ECW champion? Or about his legacy and he has never gotten the credit he derserves and not how he does some move that one of the biggest cry babies in wrestling made popular.. and by that I'm talking about Bret Hart not Sting.

 

[Slyfox696]

clearly different moves?

Theres 3 pix of Bret doing the sharpshooter different.and the only pic of sting doing the deathlock.

Did you not even read my post from before?

For example, the opponents leg thats not going to be grabbed is placed lower generally on the second leg, with the ankle up more by the calf or under the knee. In the Scorpion, the legs are placed ankle to ankle. In addition, on the Scorpion, Sting only uses one arm to hold in the lock, where as in the Sharpshooter, Bret usually used is other hand to hold the knee, theoretically providing further cranking on the knee. They are different moves.

Your pictures illustrated exactly what I said.

Notice how with the exception of sting using his right leg Bret and Sting have the opponent on the mat the same way in the same hold?
How are they not the same move only difference being which leg used?
I bet you also believe an RKO,twist of fate and the diamond cutter arent the same move too right?

Do you believe the RKO and the Stone Cold Stunner are the same move?

If Bret even originally refered to it as the as Scorpion Deathlock isnt that him pretty much admitting it's the same move?

First, the source you are getting that from is Wikipedia. If you don't know anything about Wikipedia it is a site where anyone can get on and edit it's pages. For example, I could go on right now and say that Bret Hart was the 43rd President of the United States.

Second, he may have used the Scorpion, and then altered it a bit to suit his needs, and thus called it the Sharpshooter. Someone would have to find proof of this Scorpion, before you could use that as evidence.

 

[xxCM_PUNKxx]

you people need to realize that benoit is not applying the sharpshooter, he is applying th scorpion hold/scorpion death lock. He is in no was rying to do the sharpshooter. Therefore, Benoit is not applying the move incorrectly, because he is applying a different move. It is clearly the announcers to blame, or not really to blame, because they probably arent aloud to call it the scorpion deathlock, so they just called it the shrpshooter. Bottomline is stop trying to compare the sorpion hold/deathlock and the sharpshooter as the same move, they are not the same move, yes, the sharpshooter is just a variation of the scorpioon hold/death lock, but benoit is not trying to do any variation of the move, he is doing the original move.

 

[X]

You need to take into account the following Slyfox: The name of "Scorpion Deathlock" is owned by Sting. They can't use that name; even if it wasn't owned by Sting, why on earth would they call it that when Sting has never been in the WWE and no one has ever had that move referred to as that. That'd be like if WCW called Booker T's "Book End" a "Rock Bottom", wouldn't make much sense there would it? Afterall, WWE's policy has always been to pretend that they are the only wrestling promotion to ever exist.

So, Benoit applies the Death lock, but they call it the Sharpshooter. Makes perfect sense. Kinda like how Cena does an STS but they call it an STF.

 

[PlatynumX420]

Your pictures illustrated exactly what I said.

i like how you cut off my line that said notice the pic of sting and the first one of bret how they have their opponents legs in the same position .leg behind the other leg ankle to ankle. Only difference is which leg they have their opponent's legs wrapped around.

As for this topic i m over it. Sly you would argue ,not debate, a black sheep was white.