Why can't Chris Benoit apply the Sharpshooter correctly?

[Slyfox696]

(note to mods...I had no idea where to put this, as it could fall under numerous threads. If it needs to be moved, my apologies)


Why is it that Chris Benoit can't put this move on correctly? By correctly, I'm using Bret Hart's Sharpshooter, the man who put the Sharpshooter on the map to WWF fans, as the reference. When Benoit does it, it looks sloppy and not very painful. To use as reference, I've included two pictures.

Notice the differences? Positioning of the opponents legs (Benoit with the ankles together, Hart with the ankle under a knee, while Hart cranks on the knee) and Hart sits down on his to prevent escape or loosening of the pressure, while Benoit stands straight up and doesn't put very much pressure on the move at all.


So, what is the difference? Why does Benoit, who trained with Stu Hart if I'm not mistaken, not apply the Sharpshooter correctly?

 

[Pone]

If i'm not mistaken the move had to be changed due to the amount of injuries it was causing...specifcally Shawn Micheals back issue if the sharpshooter was appiled with the amount of pressure Bret used it could seriously injure someone

 

[hatehabsforever]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I also think Hart is a little taller than Benoit, which would give him a leverage advantage and allow him to hypothetically apply more pressure and to sit down more when applying the move.

Plus Hart invented the move. With all due respect to Benoit, no one can do someone else's move as well as the original.

 

[Mexican Geek]

agree with Pone, this movement done the wrong way could cause serious injuries. But in the other side, agree with you Sly, i think Hart's sharpshooter is better executed, both men are exactly same height, same weight, both trained by Stu Hart!!(no, you are not wrong..) So i guess is because the infamous "Modified and banned moves list" or only because this move is not the ultimate finisher of the "Crippler", so he dont need to do it that good..?

 

[X]

No offense Slyfox, but what the fuck are you talking about? Benoit applies the Sharpshooter perfectly. You say that he doesn't sit on him and is standing straight up when in the picture you clearly see him hunched over, sitting down on Chavo(notice how both of their asses meet?). Benoit applies it probably exactly the same as Sting does. Hart always applied the move differently then anyone else I've ever seen do the move, he would tuck the leg almost like it was in a figure four behind the leg and pull back, very similiar to a Texas cloverleaf.

But Benoit has always applied the move perfectly, and it always looks painful as all hell---I mean it's Chris freakin' Benoit, any submission move he uses looks painful as hell, any at all.

Honestly I don't know what you're getting at---Benoit does it perfectly, always has, always will. The things you say he does wrong are clearly contradicted by the picture you've supplied. Plus, like I said before, Hart never really applied the move correctly himself, he always tucked the leg too much and made it look like a clover leaf instead of like it should, with the legs crosses and tucked under one arm.

 

[Slyfox696]

Benoit applies the Sharpshooter perfectly. You say that he doesn't sit on him and is standing straight up when in the picture you clearly see him hunched over, sitting down on Chavo(notice how both of their asses meet?).

Only because Chavo is propped up on his own elbows, which straightens out Chavo's back, which minimizes the damage done. Thus, not making the move effective. Not too mention, the degree of angle on Hart's Sharpshooter is much deeper than Benoit's.

Benoit applies it probably exactly the same as Sting does.

So, then, why doesn't he call it the Scorpion Deathlock? Or whatever the official name of the move is?

Hart always applied the move differently then anyone else I've ever seen do the move, he would tuck the leg almost like it was in a figure four behind the leg and pull back, very similiar to a Texas cloverleaf.

Where did Bret Hart get the move from?

But Benoit has always applied the move perfectly, and it always looks painful as all hell---I mean it's Chris freakin' Benoit, any submission move he uses looks painful as hell, any at all.

You're right. Because it's Benoit, clearly he can't ever do something improperly. And, no, his Sharpshooter doesn't look painful. It looks ridiculous, as if it wouldn't hurt at all. Hart's looks much more painful, as it looks like it not only hurts the back, but also the knee.

Owen Hart applying the Sharpshooter.

 

[Shocky]

I'm pretty sure the Hitman himself says he got the move from Japan on the DVD a couple years ago. I think the Hitman certainly put his own twist on it. Bret does have more of a bend in the opponents back, and he applies his hands around the knees.

Benoit maybe applying the Japanese version of it, since we all know he spent plenty of time in Japan. The reason they wouldn't call it the Scorpion Death Lock, is because it could be trademarked by Sting. The Sharpshooter is a WWE name, so any move that looks like it will be probably called as such by the WWE. It's no different then WWE calling a clothesline a clothesline, and WCW calling it a lariat.

I'm guess Hart's Sharpshooter is a variation, and Benoit is probably more of the original version, but honestly, i couldn't tell you.

 

[thraxiusrex]

I honestly think Benoit probably does it slightly different intentionally just for the sake of not copying the move exactly. For one thing, Benoit bends the legs around his right leg and not his left, as shown in the pictures above. Also, in the picture above, Chris is probably lifting himself in order to allow Chavo to try and crawl toward the ropes. After all, one of the more important aspects of a submission is the dramatic attempts to break, pulling him back to the middle of the ring, etc. I think if it were time to end the match, Benoit would probably sit deeper into it.

 

[Slyfox696]

If The Sharpshooter is the WWE name, then wouldn't that mean that Hart's Sharpshooter would be the WWE Sharpshooter?

I mean, I could live if it was called something different, but it seems clear to me that Benoit and Hart's moves are different. Thus, if the Sharpshooter is the WWE name, then Hart's move would be the actual Sharpshooter, making Benoit's improperly applied.


Is the move called The Sharpshooter in Japan?

 

[Shocky]

I'm not sure, I'm pretty sure Hart went into detail on the DVD about the origin of the move. I'll check it out and write down what he says. and edit my post as such...

 

[Slyfox696]

Are you talking about the Bret Hart DVD released late in 2005? Because I have that DVD, but don't remember anything about that on there. But it has been a while. If you do find out anything let me know.

 

[TheRazorReturns]

In Bret's own words he was taught 'The Sharpshoter' by Mexican wrestler Konnan in the dressing room one night. He said a lot of people thought his father taught it to him, all the while it was actually Konnan.

 

[Slyfox696]

In Bret's own words he was taught 'The Sharpshoter' by Mexican wrestler Konnan in the dressing room one night. He said a lot of people thought his father taught it to him, all the while it was actually Konnan.

You know, now that you say that, that does kind of ring some bells. Was that on the Bret Hart DVD? Or an interview?

 

[TheRazorReturns]

You know, now that you say that, that does kind of ring some bells. Was that on the Bret Hart DVD? Or an interview?

It was on the DVD, under the 'Extras' I do believe. Not to get off topic, but the WWE did an awesone job with that particular DVD project.

 

[Shocky]

I was beat to the punch. It is on the Bret Hart DVD release from 2005, and it's an extra. To paraphrase, Bret was familiar with the move from japan, most people thought his dad taught him the move, he didn't. He was in talks with Pat Patterson about a submission maneuver for his finisher. The Scorpion Death Lock was thrown around, ahh so the Scorpion Death Lock is the real name. Bret asked the guys in the locker room if anyone knew how to apply the Death Lock, and Konnan was the one to teach him.

I forgot all about that, and never would have guessed Konnan in a 1000 years. Why didn't you like the DVD out of curiosity. I thought Bret was very candid and tried to fight back tears a couple times when talking about Hennig, Rude and Owen.

 

[Slyfox696]

I was beat to the punch. It is on the Bret Hart DVD release from 2005, and it's an extra. To paraphrase, Bret was familiar with the move from japan, most people thought his dad taught him the move, he didn't. He was in talks with Pat Patterson about a submission maneuver for his finisher. The Scorpion Death Lock was thrown around, ahh so the Scorpion Death Lock is the real name. Bret asked the guys in the locker room if anyone knew how to apply the Death Lock, and Konnan was the one to teach him.

So, then, Benoit uses the Scorpion Death Lock? With the Sharpshooter being a different move, a slightly altered Death Lock by Bret?

And, so does that mean Benoit applies the Sharpshooter wrong, the WWE announcers don't know the difference, or the WWE doesn't want to use the term Scorpion Death Lock because of Sting?

I forgot all about that, and never would have guessed Konnan in a 1000 years. Why didn't you like the DVD out of curiosity. I thought Bret was very candid and tried to fight back tears a couple times when talking about Hennig, Rude and Owen.

Who didn't like the Bret DVD? I know I loved it, and still watch the matches all the time.

 

[Mexican Geek]

Just for the record, the name for konnan's move was "Tequila Sunrise" and is a Single leg crab with armlock...(Thank u Wikipedia...)

 

[Shocky]

So it's safe to say that Bret's move maybe slightly different, thus being the Sharpshooter instead of the Deathlock. Or maybe it's supposed to be the Deathlock, and the WWE renamed it to that to go along with the "Hitman", cute huh?

I guess the big thing would be is to check Sting's Death lock and compare and contrast it to Benoit. And I'm pretty sure the WWE wouldn't want to call it the Scorpion Death Lock, because they don't want to acknowledge any other company in anyway. So this begs the question, was the Scorpion Death Lock named before Sting, or did Sting base his gimmick around his finisher, hmmm.

 

[Slyfox696]

Just for the record, the name for konnan's move was "Tequila Sunrise" and is a Single leg crab with armlock...(Thank u Wikipedia...)

You know that the Tequila Sunrise and the Deathlock/Sharpshooter are not the same thing right?

So it's safe to say that Bret's move maybe slightly different, thus being the Sharpshooter instead of the Deathlock. Or maybe it's supposed to be the Deathlock, and the WWE renamed it to that to go along with the "Hitman", cute huh?

I didn't think about the Sharpshooter/Hitman connection. That's funny.

I guess the big thing would be is to check Sting's Death lock and compare and contrast it to Benoit. And I'm pretty sure the WWE wouldn't want to call it the Scorpion Death Lock, because they don't want to acknowledge any other company in anyway. So this begs the question, was the Scorpion Death Lock named before Sting, or did Sting base his gimmick around his finisher, hmmm.

I'm pretty certain that Sting and Benoit's moves, both in application and in execution are alike.

So, then its probably more on the WWE's end than on Benoit's end?

 

[batboy129861]

i prefer the rocks sharpshooter to anyones

 

[Mexican Geek]

You know that the Tequila Sunrise and the Deathlock/Sharpshooter are not the same thing right?

Yes man, just was for the record indeed...
more examples of the moves mentioned:
The Scorpion deathlock applied by Mexican Luchador "Pierroth" to "Atlantis"

The sharpshooter applied by the immortal Owen Hart to some guy..

the only difference for me its Pierroth's arm between his leg and the leg of Atlantis by the front, while Owen used a different grab.

Amazing move this one.....

 

[X]

Damn I was beat to the punch! Indeed, Sting invented what is known as the Sharpshooter, however they are exactly the same move, the only difference being which leg they use to put inbetween their opponents. Sting always used the right leg, while Bret always used the left. But the move WAS invented by Sting, and its original name being the Scorpion Deathlock(or Scorpion Hold originally). Don't be fooled however, they are exactly the same move.

About the picture Slyfox...how does Chavo leaning up change the fact that Benoit is still crouching and sitting on him, just like Bret Hart does? It doesn't, thats just a BS excuse. And yes actually you were correct, because it's Benoit, it looks painful. Benoit's name isn't the "Crippler" for any old reason, its because the man has broken many people's bones using his submission moves (the Crippler name originally came from when he broke Sabu's neck). So you may think it looks weak in your opinion, and you're always entitled to one, but I don't think anyone at all is going to agree with you on that one.

Benoit uses the move perfectly, always has, always will. I think you really just started this thread because of all the criticism about John Cena's STFU, which looks about as painful as a flick to the chest.

As always, no offense meant mate.

 

[Wrestlefan73]

If all the Hart Family, Brian Pillman, Chris Jericho, Lance Storm, and Chris Benoit all trained in the Stu Hart Family house basement, then YES, Benoit WAS trained by Stu Hart. It has been reported many many many times that Benoit was trained by Stu Hart. Don't you remember the Owen Hart tribute match in WcW? Bret v/s Benoit the night after Owen died. Watch the Benoit DvD, or Wrestlings Most Powerful Families.

You should appolgize to him for doubting his knowledge.

 

[Wrestlefan73]

Cena's STFU looks as painful as a flick in the chest? I know that's a sarcastic statement, but remember, the People's Elbow was nothing more than an ELBOW DROP!

 

[X]

Yeah actually Wrestlefan, the Peoples Elbow was just an elbow drop, and that too looked about as painful as a flick to the chest, as does the STFU, I was most certainly not being sarcastic about that. The STFU is one of the worst looking moves I've ever seen a wrestler use, ever.

And yeah, Benoit was trained by Stu Hart...nobody said he wasn't. But Stu Hart didn't teach him the Sharpshooter, Benoit picked it up after Bret Hart started using it AFTER Sting started using it. Sting invented the move, and Bret Hart learned the move from Konnan. So, whats your point? Stu Hart never taught anybody the sharpshooter because the move wasn't even invented yet when he trained Benoit & Hart. Sting invented it, nobody else, everyone who has used it since has taken it from Sting, and I mean that in the best way.