Why are some people so afraid to criticize Vince McMahon?

[Ambiguous Turd]

Seriously.


I look around on here and I do see people that come down hard on Vince for things he deserves to be come down on:

- Stale Main Event

- Cruise Control weekly TV where nothing happens

- Stale product, in general

- His awful philosophies on how commentators should act on TV

- A boring, uninteresting product

- A product that is too toned down for the benefit of children

- Lack of storylines and character depth

- Lack of effort into both TV shows AND House shows



But there are others that when you try to critique Vince for very valid things, they absolutely can not and will not stand for it ... and come rushing to his defense. Why?

Are you that big of a mark for Vince that you simply can't bring yourselves to do it?

What I would like to know is why you feel this undying need to show loyalty to the man or to outright worship his product regardless of any and all conditions of it? In turn, why must you feel the need to bash the competition, just because it doesn't have the initials "WWE"stamped on it?

Anyone who became a fan of the WWE in either The Hogan Era, New Generation Era, Attitude Era, Post Attitude Era .... who still shows the exact same loyalty towards the WWE today that they did back then, really makes yourselves look like a bunch of marks. Why do you want to make yourselves look like that?

With that in mind, allow me this opportunity to deep dive into your heads and explain to everyone (if you are brave enough) why you feel this sense of loyalty towards the WWE and Vince McMahon.

And because there undoubtedly will be those who are too chickenshit to answer the question, if anyone else on the other end of the spectrum wishes to chime in and speculate, feel free to do so, as well.

 

[Coco]

I don't feel this loyalty. I'm sure you'll tell me that I do, delve into my subconscious to explain it all, and maybe even invoke "mommy issues" if you're feeling really inspired, but I don't feel this way at all. Truth is, I see a lot of what you see. The stale product, the over-exposed main event line-up, the lack of character depth, the utter lack of effort given on a weekly basis... I think our biggest disagreement comes with the "toned down for the kiddies" part.

You go on and on about how the best way to get a quality product and appeal to the masses is to go with pushing the envelope, use shock-TV, massive swerve and so-on and so-forth. I'm a bigger fan of smart TV. It can be adult oriented or be age-neutral. There can be better charcter depth and storylines in a PG environment than we're currently given. I don't think going back to ATTITUDE~! and edgy content necessarly means the product will improve as a result. Your over-eagerness to attribute such causation is what normally leads my brain to explode around you. We cat-call and talk about how one is this or that, but I think we feel quite similar about how uninspired the WWE is at the moment.

People defending Vince for the sake of it... I believe it. People buy into things like Mania or Taker being a great striker because Vince feeds it to them. It was the same when Kurt Angle was the best pure wrestler ever and it continues to be the same when Vince tells them DX is the most entertaining tag team of all time. The biggest contributor to this mentality is that many, many wrestling fans have known little else through-out their wrestling-watching life time or have stuck with Vince and nobody else for so long now that they've bought into some of the revisionist history and tales of greatness and genius that the WWE sells. It sucks, but WWE has branded itself VERY well as the end-all/be-all, especially over the last decade. If nothing else, you have to give them credit for that. People's willingness to suck up to Vince comes from a lack of exposure to other wrestling products, the CONSTANT reminders of Vince's greatness, and the easy at which they've been able to find Vince's product with for years on end.

You, of course, are free to cat call now.

 

[Tastycles]

I think it's for two reasons. The first is that no matter what anyone says, there are two promotions in the history of the United States wrestling industry that haven't ended, or are currently living through, failure. TNA and WWE. Every single other one has either been swallowed, gone out of business entirely or is so deeply in debt that its existence is perennially in the balance, ROH being the key example of that.

TNA is young, and while profitable, there is nothing about its product that is particularly earth shattering. It makes money without taking any risks. Vince on the other hand is probably going to die with a fortune in excess of a billion dollars, depending on when he dies, how the markets go etc, obviously. In many people's eyes that puts him above criticism.

What I think people fail to realize, and this goes for both the people you are talking about and their polar opposites, is that Vince's success hasn't come from being always right, but from being right more than anyone else. Vince has been and continues to be a success in any measurable terms, and the reason for that is because he has basically found a formula now, much in the vein of TNA until about a month ago, that works without taking any risks.

He is running the company now in the most consistent way possible, which is why everything from merchandise to ratings to PPV buys is pretty much constant across the board. What that means though is something which is incredibly formulaic, and some people are unable to disassociate creative and monetary success. In short, people think that because Vince knows how to make money, he also must be infallible from a creative point of view. The same applies across all art, and it is unsurprising that critical acclaim of just about every artist goes down throughout their lives, while their wealth increases.

 

[SickJames]

I'm a very loyal fan and I dont need to quit being loyal simply because the product isnt as good as it once was, that's crap. If you love something you love it and like a marriage I'll keep supporting the WWE in sickness and in health, the good times and the bad, till my death or its death, do us part.

I can be a loyal fan and still critique Vince McMahon and I do and this is the worse time in WWE to me, but everything has it's down moments. As much as I can critique it and hate this or that and be unsatisfied the thing that makes me feel okay and get through it is knowing that this wont last forever, cant last forever and I look forward to a Attitude Era Resurrection which is doable in the future.

Hell, MNWII is a good start to having wrestling fans in general be able to look forward to seeing both companies go all out to impress.

But again, nothing is always at its peak, thus why there's a build up to that, there can be a short decline and a rise again in the future. I'm not gonna turn off my TV though. The WWE has a special place in my heart, I'd like to be apart of it someday. It's something I've loved since I was 6 and now I'm 19 and I dont plan on turning away from it.

It may not be the same product I fell in love with during the Attitude Era, but it has something that keeps on drawing me back in. I'll always keep tuning it, keep attending live events. It's apart of my life and it changes over time. The WWE is going through a huge transitional period and you cant expect everything to change suddenly. When you think about it yes there's a lot that must get better, but there's a good reason that it does and it can be great again in everything it lacks or isnt doing and needs back

Vince needs to trust other ppl more within the company though. The Superstars and Divas and the Creative Team and let the commentators do their jobs and it's much more real when they dont know what's going to happen. And yes sometimes you can predict what's gonna happen.

As for bashing the competition, I hate TNA and will never watch it like that, but I do want it to compete with WWE to the point where WWE will have to go Attitude to beat it, that's my wish for the MNWII. It can be great, but it's unrealistic to think it can be like WWE vs WCW. That was just epic and with the involvement of ECW on the side.

I dont like the way everyone seems to sound scripted and someone was right when they stated at times it can sound like the same person talking for both wrestlers speaking in a dialogue. They do do something right here and there and I understand that it can only get better from here and there are signs pointing to that as well as things the WWE is improving on.

I dont rush to the defence of Vince if it's something in which I feel he doesnt deserve it, but I usually dont agree with a lot of your comments on the WWE just because I feel you and a lot of ppl get some cheap thrill from always having to process everything and bash it inch for inch each week and really sometimes you should just watch and wait and enjoy. I read Jim Ross' blogs every now and then and in one he made reference to the IWC and he was right though I cant quote him cause it was a while ago, he just made reference to how ppl always like to critique EVERYTHING as if they know so much better when it comes to every single thing that goes on in the programming.

Bottom line when it's all said and done is I dont like the WWE's current state, understand why they are doing it, but still dont agree. I know it will get better because it cant last the way it is and there are things pointing to it. People have legit reasons to critique Vince and the WWE, but often take it too extremes that are unecessary that just become repetitive and boring and old and start to sound whiny and as if they cant enjoy anything without overly critiquing and being completely negative and I have to wonder if people like that even enjoy life without doing criticism commentary on everything that they dont agree with.




I AM and will forever BE... a loyal WWE fan

 

[jackhammer_27]

I have to say I'm not so much a WWE fan as I am a fan of pro wrestling in general on all it's forms. I like storylines, but a good in ring product speaks to me as well. I'm pushing 31 and I've been watching wrestling since I can remember. While WWE programming today may be stale and stagnant at times and I don't suckle at the McMahon teat like lots of fans do, I really have to say it just doesn't get to me as badly as it does others. I can watch Raw, Smackdown, ECW, ROH, Impact, or any other program you throw at me and while I may not be riveted to my set and just praising everything I'm seeing, I can find something that I enjoy most times. I think alot of times we as fans lose touch with what wrestling should be to us, entertainment.

Too often on these very boards I read posts by guys who actually seem as if pro wrestling is their life. And I guess there's nothing wrong with that. I have a family, a job, and friends and other things going on that when i look to pro-wrestling for something, it's entertainment. That's all. And if the day comes that I turn on WWE and I feel no connection to anything, I'll turn it off. I just think as fans alot of times we lean to far in one direction or the other, either so hardcore that nothing is ever good enough, or so hardcore that we just fall all over ourselves praising every aspect of it all. I guess I'm just saying a collective lighten up to everyone.

Oh, and as someone who would love to pass on my love of the biz to my young son, I applaud Vince for toning down the sex and language. I really don't think as a respnsible parent I could allow my son to watch any Attitude Era type programming. That being said, Vince could freshen up the creative aspects by changing the stale main event scene and just allowing for some new creative ideas to flow outside of what he thinks is best. All of the problems could be solved without having to resort to lowbrow sex infused foul language ridden programming. Just my humble opinion. Sorry if I come off too preachy.

 

[arun_is_wrestling]

Seriously.


I look around on here and I do see people that come down hard on Vince for things he deserves to be come down on:

- Stale Main Event

- Cruise Control weekly TV where nothing happens

- Stale product, in general

- His awful philosophies on how commentators should act on TV

- A boring, uninteresting product

- A product that is too toned down for the benefit of children

- Lack of storylines and character depth

- Lack of effort into both TV shows AND House shows



But there are others that when you try to critique Vince for very valid things, they absolutely can not and will not stand for it ... and come rushing to his defense. Why?

Are you that big of a mark for Vince that you simply can't bring yourselves to do it?

What I would like to know is why you feel this undying need to show loyalty to the man or to outright worship his product regardless of any and all conditions of it? In turn, why must you feel the need to bash the competition, just because it doesn't have the initials "WWE"stamped on it?

Anyone who became a fan of the WWE in either The Hogan Era, New Generation Era, Attitude Era, Post Attitude Era .... who still shows the exact same loyalty towards the WWE today that they did back then, really makes yourselves look like a bunch of marks. Why do you want to make yourselves look like that?

How i am a mark if im loyal. How am i a mark if i enjoyed those era's. You are saying that we shouldnt enjoy the wwe, you stupid son of a bitch. Your comments and posts are ******ed.

With that in mind, allow me this opportunity to deep dive into your heads and explain to everyone (if you are brave enough) why you feel this sense of loyalty towards the WWE and Vince McMahon.

And because there undoubtedly will be those who are too chickenshit to answer the question, if anyone else on the other end of the spectrum wishes to chime in and speculate, feel free to do so, as well.

Here we go again. Lord sidious at it again, critising mcmahon for some things that arent even talked about anymore. Stale main event? not anymore my friend. Vince has pushed other young stars, made youung stars and freshened the scene up a little. You wanna talk stale main events? Angle vs Aj, 3 times in a month! Thats stale. But no sidious critising hogan or bischoff. You stupid ignorant tna mark. Just face it sidious, vince always has a plan b and it outshines anything tna does. Tna sucks up all the time. WWe had an awesome year and i feel 2010 will be awesome. why not support wwe as well as tna. Its the rumble in two days. Lighten up you ignorant pig.

 

[Thorion]

Lately there have been few changes in WWE like a couple of the new guys being pushed. Sheamus being WWE Champion being a big one. The problem is there was no real good build up to it. Sure they had Seamus and Cena argue a few times but the company needs to get back to story lines and feuds like they had in the Hogan and New Age eras. With all the pay per views every year that kind of kills that. I started watching wrestling before the Hogan era. I remember when Bob Backlund was WWF Champion. To sum it up the biggest problem I have with Vince is the last of character creation and interactions building up to big main events like they did 10 to 15 years ago.

I used to watch TNA but all they do now is reuse old WCW story lines. What they are doing now trying to push old guys is what finished off WCW in the first place. Looks like history is going to do a repeat on this one. Maybe that is why Vince is not making more improvements to the company. He has nothing to worry about.

 

[Schizophrenic]

Here we go again. Lord sidious at it again, critising mcmahon for some things that arent even talked about anymore. Stale main event? not anymore my friend. Vince has pushed other young stars, made youung stars and freshened the scene up a little. You wanna talk stale main events? Angle vs Aj, 3 times in a month! Thats stale. But no sidious critising hogan or bischoff. You stupid ignorant tna mark. Just face it sidious, vince always has a plan b and it outshines anything tna does. Tna sucks up all the time. WWe had an awesome year and i feel 2010 will be awesome. why not support wwe as well as tna. Its the rumble in two days. Lighten up you ignorant pig.

Yes let's flame a mod for stating his oppinion. By the way does calling someone a pig and stupid mark over the internet make ya feel tough? If so then enjoy your "Awesome" life of lonliness and D&D. By the way, while Styles vs Angle may get repetitive, they do new stuff every match unlike Superman and whomever he faces where I feel like i could watch the first match they ever had and not miss anything new unless weapons are involved. I'm a fan of both promotions but I'm getting bored with the same guys every week in the main event. Try to get on me about TNA but one week you see Joe, the next Angle, the next Dinero, the next Wolfe. Can't say the same about RAW. SmackDown is anoher story. It's better than any other show on WWE right now.

Anyway, I think the reason that people dont go after Vicne like they do the creative team is simply because it's easier to blame the creative because they come up with the stuff. But people seem to forget that Vince has the final say. He has the right to let it go or tell them they need to write better stuff. That's just my take.

I used to watch TNA but all they do now is reuse old WCW story lines. What they are doing now trying to push old guys is what finished off WCW in the first place. Looks like history is going to do a repeat on this one. Maybe that is why Vince is not making more improvements to the company. He has nothing to worry about.

You clearly are not watching the show. Sure The Band is being used but other than that the guys getting the pushes are the originals like Styles, Daniels, Joe and the new guys such as Dinero & Wolfe. Guys like The Band, The Nasties and Venis are being used to get the new guys over as legit. And just because Vince "has nothing to worry about" shouldn't mean you let your tv bore people to sleep or until they change the channel. I used to be an avid WWE fan but the only program I find myself watching all the way through is Smackdown. I have yet to watch a full episode of RAW in months. There is no excuse for having that much tv and not giving people what they want. No excuse.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

I think the mentality of a lot people who don't want to criticize Vince McMahon has something to do with the fact that....he IS VINCE MCMAHON. What I mean by this is, a lot of people probably feel like, "Who Am I to criticizes the great Vince McMahon? He is top dog when it comes to pro wrestling, so obviously he knows what he's doing. So why should I question him?" Yeah WWE has become stale as of late, and Raw in 2009 was pretty bad, but still, when you look at the numbers(money,ticket sales,TV ratings,merchandise sales, etc.) WWE is #1.

Call it loyalty, or ass kissing, but this why I think a lot of people are afraid to point the finger at Vince. As long as WWE remains #1, people will still think, "Well since Vince is always #1, he must know what he's doing."

 

[ZeroVX]

I think some people respect Vince more than he deserves, hence why they won't criticize him when he needs it. Think about it. If it wasn't for Vince, there would be no Wrestlemania, no Hulkamania, no Monday Night RAW, no Attitude Era, no Austin 3:16, nothing that has happened would exist if not for Vince.

In that regard, people need to realize that Vince couldn't have grabbed anybody he wanted and made them famous. Hulkamania worked because Hogan was so good at it. The Attitude Era worked because guys like Austin, Rock, and Foley made it work. Both sides are equally responsible for the ideas being as good as they were. Despite the people who find him dull or uninteresting, John Cena wouldn't be the top guy today if he wasn't good at his character.

That's one of the problems with not just how people view Vince, but with Vince himself. Vince seems to think that he and only he can make someone a star, that it requires no effort on the part of the person themselves. That's probably why he's pushing Sheamus so fast, to prove that he can take anyone and make them a star. That's why Drew McIntyre is the "Chosen One" (aka, Jeff Jarrett 2.0), because Vince says he is. Vince has a strong hold on the entire product, and hardly seems willing to let anyone else tell him otherwise.

As such, it's because of what he has done and not what he is doing that some people are willing to defend him. He could have Sheamus retain the title at Wrestlemania this year. He's still the one who created the first Wrestlemania. He could push Drew McIntyre to the moon. He still gave Hulk Hogan the title. He could make the WWE the most politically correct and kid-friendly product imaginable. He still started the Attitude Era. It's a big case of looking through rose-coloured classes.

 

[Schizophrenic]

Shut it already, I can tell your an ******** already.

Great way to start off your argument. Off to a great start already. Should I take any of your oppinions seriously or should I just stop caring about you altogether?

I dont mind sidious' opinion. But i do mind that he always seems to gather a crew around, under the influence of his biased opinions. Him and other people like him dont give wwe a chance to improve. WWE is still awesome. your saying the whole product is bad becus of cena. He's a top man. Great on the mic, works hard, its just his gimmick is stale. and his moveset. Hopefully there will be a heel turn but i dunno.

So because we share similar oppinions we are followers and have no mind of our own? So because you have similar oppinions to other posters does that mean that you are a follower as well, or is it ok for you to agree with people but no one who has opposing views? I for one want WWE to improve. I am yearning for the time when I could not miss RAW or SmackDown. It's just not like that anymore. I NEVER blamed all of WWE's problems on Cena, you came up with that one by yourself. I appreciate what Cena does for the buisness, and I respect him as a man and a wrestler but that doesn't mean I wont notice his flaws. Just like any other wrestler I watch.

WWE has made several stars and champions in the last 2-3 months. Tna has purchased a few. thats the key phrase you have to think about. it took 7 years for aj to be established as a champ. 7 years??

And it took them until damn near all the other guys were ready to retire to do it. And AJ was champ before TNA got on main tv but then again to most if it's not on TV they dont know about it. Too bad people cant open their eyes.

Dont get me wrong, i enjoy tna. Its exciting, but im loyal to wwe and just cus i am, doesnt make me a shareholder, doesnt make me a mark, doesnt make me a biased fanboy or whatever. Im a wrestling fan that enjoys wrestling and entertainment. wwe 4life.

Glad there is another wrestling fan out there aside from myself but your WWE 4life at the end kind of kills your argument. Sholuldn't it be Wrestling 4life?

 

[Razor]

Seriously.


I look around on here and I do see people that come down hard on Vince for things he deserves to be come down on:

- Stale Main Event

Meh. I liked Cena, and don't care how many times he's in my main event. He can put on good matches, no matter what you "liberated" posters seem to the think. Go back to AJ Styles vs. Kobashi vs. KENTA vs. Joe for the "BEST WRESTLER EVER NOT WWE LULZLUZLULUZLUZ" title.

- Cruise Control weekly TV where nothing happens

Last Raw was pretty good. And there is always feud progression. Maybe not the way we want it to progress, but there is feud progression.

- Stale product, in general

Can you use a word that isn't "stale?" Boring, maybe?

- His awful philosophies on how commentators should act on TV

Alright, the commentators are pretty shit.

- A boring, uninteresting product

I'm plenty interested.

- A product that is too toned down for the benefit of children

Is it toned because we aren't seeing any more hand babies? Or is it the lack of cars being driven or dropped on people? How about the death threats? No, you must mean the rapes and threats of rape. Yeah, can't have a good wrestling show without those.

- Lack of storylines and character depth

Meh. I think the characters are being built just fine. Swagger is showing character development, as is Cena. Orton is still crazy, but at least it's a hurting crazy.

- Lack of effort into both TV shows AND House shows

Why should I give a fuck about House shows?

But there are others that when you try to critique Vince for very valid things, they absolutely can not and will not stand for it ... and come rushing to his defense. Why?

I don't know, maybe some of your critiques are utterly inane and absolute drivel.

Are you that big of a mark for Vince that you simply can't bring yourselves to do it?

..Or maybe I like the current product?

What I would like to know is why you feel this undying need to show loyalty to the man or to outright worship his product regardless of any and all conditions of it? In turn, why must you feel the need to bash the competition, just because it doesn't have the initials "WWE"stamped on it?

I fail to see how liking today's product, honestly, incredibly enjoying today's product makes me a blind Vince mark. I would say it makes me a fan.

Anyone who became a fan of the WWE in either The Hogan Era, New Generation Era, Attitude Era, Post Attitude Era .... who still shows the exact same loyalty towards the WWE today that they did back then, really makes yourselves look like a bunch of marks. Why do you want to make yourselves look like that?

LULZ. So if they liked wrestling before, and like wrestling now, they have to do it only for Vince? They can't like it because they like it? You're spouting shit, Sid.

With that in mind, allow me this opportunity to deep dive into your heads and explain to everyone (if you are brave enough) why you feel this sense of loyalty towards the WWE and Vince McMahon.

I'm going to run and hide behind Norcal after I hit the "Submit Reply" button.

And because there undoubtedly will be those who are too chickenshit to answer the question, if anyone else on the other end of the spectrum wishes to chime in and speculate, feel free to do so, as well.

My god, the shit you spout. Seriously. You don't like the WWE, so you're better than everyone? And you can condescend to people who like what you don't? From the shit you spout, I can't quite see the point of this thread. Is it to say what you don't like about the WWE, or to shit on people who may like it despite what Vince says or what you feel is superior?

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

Here we go again. Lord sidious at it again, critising mcmahon for some things that arent even talked about anymore. Stale main event? not anymore my friend. Vince has pushed other young stars, made youung stars and freshened the scene up a little. You wanna talk stale main events? Angle vs Aj, 3 times in a month! Thats stale. But no sidious critising hogan or bischoff. You stupid ignorant tna mark. Just face it sidious, vince always has a plan b and it outshines anything tna does. Tna sucks up all the time. WWe had an awesome year and i feel 2010 will be awesome. why not support wwe as well as tna. Its the rumble in two days. Lighten up you ignorant pig.

I understand you counterpointing Sidious, because it sounds like you had some intersting points, however I gotta say WWE is no better than TNA on the idea of redundant matchups. Why do I say this?

Undertaker resumed his feud with Batista a couple months back and he just recently wound that down. I will say that this time it was different with Batista being a heel, but I just couldn't stand having to see that thing start all over again, their 2007 matches were more appealing to me. Drew McIntyre wrestled John Morrison AGAIN just recently after already have several matches.

Up until Sheamus won the WWE Title from John Cena, the only people we really saw in the title picture were Triple H, Cena and Orton, over and over and over again. Don't even get me started on the WHC scene over on SmackDown's side, I could only remember Batista, Taker and Edge fighting for that one months on end. Granted that shook itself up a bit when the title kept flipping back and forth to RAW and then back to Smackdown. But just the same, WWE is just as guilty of pulling the redundant card and that's even worse than in TNA's case, since WWE has a much LARGER roster. I'd hate to see the brand extension end in many ways, but maybe it's tie to consolidate the product once more and unite the roster. That has both good and bad points, and that's definitely for another thread. However like you pointed out arun it does indeed look like the changes that are a brewing will continue, well I hope at least...

But I will say though man, despite the insult hurling to Sidious, I'm with you on supporting both companies, because that's what it should be about. I would also take it with a grain of salt TNA's worked-shoot style comments coming from Hulk Hogan, it's all apart of the over the top nature of wrestling. I mean is Hogan's taunting of McMahon any different than those Huckster/Nacho Man skits back in 1996? I will admit though, I'd rather see them base their product by speaking with their action more than their words.

In the end though, I will have to say that WWE is still THE organization by which all other entities should strive to go toe to toe with, they are the blue print of what pro wrestling is whether you love or hate the product. They are the standard bearers. So I am definitely with you on what you said in regards to remaining bipartisan to both WWE and TNA.

There's no real reason to hate on either company, both have their good and bad points. One's an established brand (WWE) that through the thick and thin, still is doing something right to still be around after all this time, whether you like the product or not you can't argue with its successes. While the alternative (TNA) is trying to give us another company to watch.

So far I am excited to see Hulk Hogan back and in the new phase of his career, while I won't say I've liked everything there are some things I like in this current phase of TNA's existence. Hogan has spoken highly of the new talent that he's working with, to his credit his on screen character while in the spotlight more than most non-wrestlers would be, has so far been a man of his word and not wrestled, let's hope it stays that way. I'm not too high on the acquisitions of some of the older names, but I'll wait and see what's going on. So far so good, I mean after all Beer Money, Inc did get a one up on Nash and Pac at Genesis right? Over on WWE's side, Mysterio vs Taker should be a great match, that does break the plague of monotony in the WHC scene that I had mentioned was happening to it for a period of time. Then of course the Royal Rumble is always a good bet for intrigue.

In closing, I look at it this way, for as simplified as this might sound, this is how I want to look at my choice in wrestling product:

This isn't Soviet Russia we're not communists haha, if I want both Pepsi and Coke stocked in my fridge or Miller and Bud, then that's what I am gonna do. And what the hell why I am trying to make things light hearted here, I run a Macbook that boots into either Windows or Mac OS, that's how much I believe in bipartisan practices!!! Forgive me if that one was over the top, and now finally to get back to wrestling, when it comes to opening up the DVR menu on my cable box to see what shows I am recording, I like having both WWE and TNA in my recording archive. Competition is good folks, let's embrace this and hope for some good stuff to come!

 

[cole924]

Seriously.


I look around on here and I do see people that come down hard on Vince for things he deserves to be come down on:

- Stale Main Event

- Cruise Control weekly TV where nothing happens

- Stale product, in general

- His awful philosophies on how commentators should act on TV

- A boring, uninteresting product

- A product that is too toned down for the benefit of children

- Lack of storylines and character depth

- Lack of effort into both TV shows AND House shows

Usually I agree with you LS when it comes to your opinions on the wrestling industry. This time, I could not disagree more. The main point I want to drive home is that the WWE is a business and as the owner of that company, Vince has done a very good job. Right now the WWE is the leader by a wide margin and ratings are still staying above 3.0, stadiums are selling out, there are enough PPV buys, merchandise is moving, and the WWE is making money. That's #1 priority whether we like it or not.

Does that mean Vince deserves a pass forever? Absolutely not. The WWE has slowly grown over the last couple of years and we can all agree it's far from their best product. Realistically thinking, that is how business works. Not every single company grows and succeeds year in/year out. The WWE is not invincible either. I understand your expectations, but in an economy such as this....what don't you understand by Vince's decision making? He understands that wrestling as a whole isn't as hot of a commodity as it once was. He has to find a way through those waters and find the best output possible that makes money. Right now that is targeting the youth and giving us the same main events/shows over and over again.

Let's go deeper into the economic view and how it relates to this discussion. The attitude era was tremendous and targeted an audience 16-30. Those are the young people today that find internet streams of the PPV, don't buy merchandise, can't afford tickets to shows, etc. The target market for today's WWE is children who actually do get their parents to buy them merchandise, get the PPVs, and buy tickets to the shows. They are the loyal fans at this time and that's why the WWE markets to them. Do you truly believe the WWE could make more money by targeting a different audience? I'd love to see you back it up. There is no way the WWE would work as the attitude era today. I understand that isn't your argument, but I would love to hear a product that would succeed and grab all audiences as a whole.

Let's now talk about the "stale product" the "boring shows" the "lack of development" etc. Right now the WWE is more than surviving through a very tough economy. They are playing it safe and not taking a single risk. They are going after the market that is spending the money and not changing it up as long as that money continues to pour in. Why would the WWE even risk it at this time? They haven't shown up at the cross roads yet and they haven't lost money. As long as those things do not happen.. keep pushing the same ole same ole, whether it's good for you and I or not.

Now my personal opinion is actually along the same viewpoint that you have. It's stale and I'm quite bored right now. I wish we would even transition into something edgier w/ more risk taking. I wish characters would develop and storylines be more unpredictable. The difference is that I understand exactly why the WWE has taken the other route. It keeps the business alive. They don't risk ANYTHING because they know there will be a better time to make that jump. A time where they'll have the economy on their side.

Bottom line: If the internet fans ran the WWE, they'd be run straight into the ground. It sucks that we get the same ole same ole every night, yet we continue to watch. It sucks that we, for the most part, can guess the results, yet we still buy the PPVs.

So I ask you... what business decision would be better?

 

[d_henderson1810]

Yes.There are problems with WWE at the moment, and Vince must wear a lot of that. But here are some of the things I admire about Mr McMahon:

1. His backstory. Here is a guy who was raised in a trailer-park, by his mother and his abusive step-father. I seem to remember that he didn't discover who his real father was (Vince McMahon Snr) until later on. Once he met his father, he got involved in the wrestling business. To go from poverty, work to save the money to buy the company from his father, and then make it a mulit-million dollar industry, gets my admiration. He worked to get where he was, and he got it.

2. Now, on the above point, you will say he got success by buying out regional companies. But, come on, do you think, left untouched, those companies would survive today. Society has changed, and their tastes have changed. Vince McMahon was a "visionary". He could see that, long-term, wrestling had to become global. WWE was one of the pioneers for Pay-Per-View. Vince leaded about branding, marketing etc. Wrestling had to become more than some small tin-pot competitions in pool halls. Vince took those companies, took elements of them, and made wrestling HUGE! If Vince McMahon had not come along, wrestling in the United States would be dead today.

3. His biggest vision was "Wrestlemania"! I remember reading an interview with Roddy Piper, who said that everyone though Vince was crazy when Wrestlemania was first conceived. Vince apparently put all his finances into the show, and if the first Wrestlemania had failed, Vince would be bankrupt and WWF would close its doors. Everything was relying on Vince's gamble to pay off. It did, and it has become the biggest wrestling event ever (I ask the OP to deny that?). Vince got it right with Wrestlemania. Now, some cards have been better than others, but overall it has made wrestling where it is today.

4. The beloved "Attitude Era" you all talk about. Vince must get credit for that. Firstly, for seeing that WCW was a threat, and doing something to change it. Secondly, for making "Stone Cold" Steve Austin a star. I know Austin has a lot to do with that as well (he came up with "Stone Cold" , for instance), but Vince gave Austin the ball, and he ran with it. He also helped make Austin by changing his persona, and becoming "Mr McMahon", the embodiment of every narcassistic leader known to man. By playing the ultimate antagonist, he made "Stone Cold", and WWE, even bigger, which eventually finished WCW in the process. Now Vince's part in this storyline couldn't be understated, since they once tried an "Austin v Eric Bischoff" storyline, which was similar, but it didnt work. Vince also let Austin have the final word more often than not, and the fans lapped it up.

Look, I don't defend today's WWE. But I think that Vince isn't stupid, but may have gotten lazy. When challenged, (like with the "Monday Night Wars")he thrives. However, when there is no competition, he fails to take pride in being great for the sake of it. He also listens to too many others, such as Triple H, many of who have their own agendas. But knowing what Vince has done in the past, I hope that TNA's efforts to get Hulk Hogan and go Monday nights, may spark interest, and be a real threat. Because then, I am confident that he will drop the PG stuff, bag the leprachun, and produce the "crash TV" from a decade ago. Then if both companies vie for supremacy, and produce really good TV, the ultimate winner will be the fans.

I think some people respect Vince more than he deserves, hence why they won't criticize him when he needs it. Think about it. If it wasn't for Vince, there would be no Wrestlemania, no Hulkamania, no Monday Night RAW, no Attitude Era, no Austin 3:16, nothing that has happened would exist if not for Vince.

In that regard, people need to realize that Vince couldn't have grabbed anybody he wanted and made them famous. Hulkamania worked because Hogan was so good at it. The Attitude Era worked because guys like Austin, Rock, and Foley made it work. Both sides are equally responsible for the ideas being as good as they were. Despite the people who find him dull or uninteresting, John Cena wouldn't be the top guy today if he wasn't good at his character.

That's one of the problems with not just how people view Vince, but with Vince himself. Vince seems to think that he and only he can make someone a star, that it requires no effort on the part of the person themselves. That's probably why he's pushing Sheamus so fast, to prove that he can take anyone and make them a star. That's why Drew McIntyre is the "Chosen One" (aka, Jeff Jarrett 2.0), because Vince says he is. Vince has a strong hold on the entire product, and hardly seems willing to let anyone else tell him otherwise.

As such, it's because of what he has done and not what he is doing that some people are willing to defend him. He could have Sheamus retain the title at Wrestlemania this year. He's still the one who created the first Wrestlemania. He could push Drew McIntyre to the moon. He still gave Hulk Hogan the title. He could make the WWE the most politically correct and kid-friendly product imaginable. He still started the Attitude Era. It's a big case of looking through rose-coloured classes.

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You say that Vince shouldn't take credit for Austin 3:16, Hulkamania and Wrestlemania. But these worked PARTLY because of Vince McMahon's involvement.

If Steve Austin was solely responsible for becoming huge, then why didn't it happen until he got to WWE. He was jobbing to "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan in WCW, as one of the "Hollywood Blonds". Sure, he had great matches with Rick Steamboat in WCW, but it didn't make him a megastar. No, the attitude era did that, thanks in part to Vince McMahon. He made Austin something he couldn't do himself in WCW or ECW- be a star.

As for Hulkamania. Who booked that Hulk Hogan would win the title over the Iron Sheik at MSG? Hulk Hogan wasn't nearly as huge when he was in AWA. "Hulkamania" was not gracing lunchboxes and action figures then. Hogan didn't become the recognized face of wrestling, and appear in "Rocky 3" and "The A-Team" when he was "Sterling Golden", a heel managed by Freddie Blassie (bet a lot of you forgot that). Like with Austin, VInce gave Hogan the ball, and these superstars ran with it. So, yes they made themselves stars, but it was Vince seeing what no-one else did that gave them the chance.

Ever heard of Flex Kavana, Terra Ryzing or "Mean" Mark Callous. Just second-string wrestlers in their organizations. But Vince made them household names,
and they became the Rock, Triple H and the Undertaker, respectively. They were forgettable before Vince got hold of them, now they are mulit-millionaires (and Triple H got a wife out of it too) thanks to Vince. So, give him credit for this.

 

[The Underking]

You say WWE is stale look at TNA we have Kurt vs. Styles great match then at the main event of genisis Angle vs. Syles and then again Angle vs. Styles. Those matches remind me of smackdown vs. raw where some people get out of five hundred finishers and the finishers just look like regular moves at that point. Anyways yeah im always watching Raw and the only time i ever watched TNA was the nighth of Beermoney by accident and then like the january fourth one the rest i recorded. So why would i criticise Vince when his competition is doing worse. Hell if it wasn't for VKM im sure TNA would not even exist.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

If Vince does something I don't like, I'm happy to voice criticisms over it. However, my opinions differ on the quality of the WWE product. I don't need the Attitude Era in order to be happy watching wrestling. It was great while it lasted and, in my opinion, a lot of what's going on in the WWE is great. Doesn't make me a mark for Vince McMahon or the WWE, but I just know what I like.

My problems don't come from anyone necessarily saying that they don't like something about the WWE. I mean, that's all well and good because everyone has an opinion. My only problems come from those that honestly do think they could do a better job than Vince McMahon does in running his company even though none of them is willing to take that kind of risk. I think there are some good ideas posted sometimes on the forum and there are legitimate criticisms just as there are those that want to simply bust the WWE's balls no matter what. We can all sit at are computers and exchange our ideas, debate which ideas would work and which wouldn't, when it's appropriate do to certain kinds of matches, who should get pushed and so on and so forth. But, the fact of it is, I don't think any of us really have a clue how to run a wrestling company. With all the "wrestling knowledge" that's shared on this board so often, you'd think that there'd be a hundred companies as big as the WWE is but there aren't. Why? Because most of us are a bunch of windbags that think we know what we're talking about but, at the end of the day, we can't really be sure because none of us are going to take the financial risks of starting a professional wrestling company. We're not going to devote our time, money and effort to create something that we hope and pray will someday be competition for the WWE.

Vince McMahon has a huge ego. The man's probably an outright asshole in many respects. He's not some almight wrestling guru that doesn't make mistakes and doesn't miss out on opportunities. He's not some warm and fuzzy kitten that wants to cuddle in our laps. He's a ruthless capitalist that has run people out of pro wrestling and has decimated fortunes of men that he ran out of the wrestling business. That can be a positive or a negative depending upon how you view it.

However, does the man often get shit on just for the sake of shitting on? Absofuckinglutely he does. Do I think that he knows more than all of us on this forum about wrestling? Probably so. After all, he's proven it. I'm not suggesting that the fact that he is successful means he's immune from legitimate criticisms, but the fact that he has been successful does suggest that the man does seem to know what he's doing overall. We might not like what he does sometimes, hell that's only natural. Nobody can like anything that anybody does all the time no matter what the situation.

However, running a company probably demands that one has to look at the big picture and look ahead beyond the momentary. The IWC is notorious for caring primarily about what's in front of its nose at any given second and I would imagine running a large company forces those running it to look further than that.

 

[The Phenomenal One]

I have no problem criticizing Vince, when he deserves it. If Vince does something that I don't care for, I'll say something about it. I have no problem doing that. The man isn't perfect. All of his ideas don't work. Hell, I'm still pissed about the WM25 main event. A whole year and I'm still pissed over it lol. I also have no problem giving Vince some credit, which obviously goes against the norms of the IWC. That doesn't make me a "WWE Mark" or "McMahon fanboy". I'm a wrestling fan. I watch it all, WWE, TNA, ROH, AAA, PWO (An Ohio promotion. Still don't get how I got an Ohio channel when I live Houston. WTF is up with that? lol) PWG, ect. I just love wrestling. Been watching for 12yrs.

And what gets me though, as Jack-Hammer said, are the IWC smarks who think that they can run the business better than Vince. The IWC smarks who, for some un-Godly reason, feel that they know the business better than McMahon. Believe it or not, but there isn't one person on this forum that knows the business better than Vince McMahon. He's actually in the business. We just watch the show and read the behind-the-scene info. It's so easy to sit in front of a computer and say what needs to change in WWE (usually those changes benefit the IWC and nobody else) It's so easy to bash McMahon and act like you know more about the business than he does. It's entirely different when you're actually in charge of a billion dollar corporation, and your having to meet the needs of millions....not the needs of the IWC smarks. Same thing I say to the internet computer idiots who act as if they can run Microsoft or Apple better than Gates or Jobs.

Vince McMahon and WWE get bashed to no end by the smarks apparently b/c that's the "cool" thing to do. No more can a person just watch The E if they want. No, now in order to be considered a "real" fan you have to hate on anything related to McMahon. If you like WWE or praise McMahon, you get bashed. If you say that WWE is the best you get bashed for not knowing what "real" wrestling is, even though saying Danielson/Tyler Black is real wrestling has about as much validity as saying Cena/Orton is real wrestling. It's all a matter of opinion that's backed up with more opinions. You get bashed for being a WWE mark b/c you prefer The E. Yet, it's perfectly fine to jizz over anything ROH or TNA does.

People bashed McMahon and WWE over the MSJ at Breaking Point during the Punk/Taker match. Hell, the majority of the IWC bashed it before it even happened. TNA does the samething and suddenly the same people who bashed McMahon over it, then turn around and say how awesome TNA is for doing it? That's bullshit! What's up with that double standard? Is it b/c hating WWE/McMahon is the "cool" thing to do nowadays? Bottomline, we're all wrestling fans here. If a person watches WWE, they shouldn't get blasted for it. That's one thing about the uppity ass smarks with their, "I'm better than you and I know more than you" attitude, that pisses me the hell off. You like WWE and the said smarks have the fucking audacity to look down their noses as if they're the gold standard of what a wrestling fan should be. You automatically get labeled a "McMahon mark". WTF? Why can it be that person likes WWE b/c well they just like the product. Just b/c some of the smarks hate the product doesn't mean that everybody hates it. For the most part, I do enjoy the product. I know it's not perfect. I also enjoy TNA, and I realize that it isn't perfect. I just wish the uppity ass smarks would get off their damn high horse for once. And stop acting as if they are the "Gold Standard" of what a fan should be. B/c truth be told, if every fan had the mentality of the uppity smark then wrestling would be in serious jeopardy.

And IMO, a better question would be "Why are some people so afraid to give McMahon some damn credit?" Seriously, why is it so hard for people to positively aknowledge McMahon instead of constantly bashing the hell out of him? The guy seriously gets no credit for anything. The mass of smarks have no problem saying things like "Bischoff is a wrestling genius", even though he had a hand in atleast one nail in WCW's coffin. Or "Heyman is a wrestling genius" even though his ECW is dead and buried. Yet hardly anybody wants to give McMahon his due. And the few who do, get bashed to no end over it.

Like I said, I have no problem admitting when Vince messes up. I know that he isn't perfect. He isn't some "Wrestling-God". He does make mistakes. He's only human. But at the sametime, I will give him some credit. And I refuse to have the attitude that I know the business better than him. Contrary to popular belief, watching wrestling for years and reading behind the scenes info does not = Knowing The Business.

 

[hellod245]

Some people just cant hate Vince Mcmahon. All those wwe marks will never hate Vince. They dont want to coz they are happy in the world that Vince allow them to live. Vince is just made to be hated. he is a disgrace to this business. Look where wwe used to be in 2002 or before that. WWE produced the highest rating in TV history with Rock n sock this is ur life and Edge's live sex show. But now Vince made it just pg show.Bt thats a topic for another thread. I am not a big TNA fan but i want both companies to suceed so that we can have another MNW.