Who's The Better Wrestler?

[Kliq]

Some people are looking at this poll and saying "better wrestler=better draw".

If you put HBK in the 90's against Cena today, who had more fans and more viewers? You can't make this poll about HBK today, because today isn't his best. Overall this is just an opinion, and for you to look at it and try to decide which is the better wrestler as a FACT, that is just ignorance. I don't care how much evidence slyfox has for Cena, it is just an opinion and for him to carry on like he has, taking it personally and bashing other peoples opinions, is simply ridiculous.

My opinion? HBK is the better wrestler. Technique-wise he is more skilled and has more experience. On the mic he is just plain better than Cena. Again, slyfox says HBK's are repetitive. Cena says the same tired shit over and over. About how he goes all out, about how he has lots respect for the fans, and about his pride in the WWE. Blah blah blah. HBK just tells you that he is gonna kick you in the mouth and delivers.

I have yet to see an exciting match from Cena. I understand that his '5-moves of death' are underestimating him. He has more then five, but sadly he brings them out rarely. How ridiculous is it that everyone goes crazy when he does something drastic by varying his moveset? He should be doing this more then just at PPVs. On normal TV he is stuck to a routine. HBK goes all out in every match I've seen him in. Just his in ring energy makes even the small moves he does light up.

Again, this is based on opinion. I'm not going to be a dumbass and tell the rest of you what to think. Obviously HBK fans are going to be voting 'HBK' and Cena fans are going to be voting 'Cena'.

Let's knock off the 'Take off the blinders' and 'quit wasting my time with this'. For someone to get so caught up in someone elses opinion is literally ******ed. Get over the fact that not everyone has the same opinion as you, and quit trying to bring FACT into something that is purely OPINION.

 

[Slyfox696]

If you put HBK in the 90's against Cena today, who had more fans and more viewers?

It's actually a pretty tough call. HBK had a very poor drawing reign in 1996, so bad that people were cheering Psycho Sid when he beat HBK. Ratings bottomed out in '96, as did PPV buys, and the WWF was the closest they had ever been to bankruptcy.

You can't make this poll about HBK today, because today isn't his best.

Agreed. I think when comparing HBK today against Cena, Cena wins.

Comparing HBK's large body of work against Cena, I think HBK is ahead. Just keep in mind, Cena is only 30 years old.

Overall this is just an opinion, and for you to look at it and try to decide which is the better wrestler as a FACT, that is just ignorance.

No, it's the nature of wrestling forums.

I don't care how much evidence slyfox has for Cena

Yes, why worry about facts?

it is just an opinion and for him to carry on like he has, taking it personally and bashing other peoples opinions, is simply ridiculous.

Taking it personally? When?

Cena says the same tired shit over and over. About how he goes all out, about how he has lots respect for the fans, and about his pride in the WWE. Blah blah blah. HBK just tells you that he is gonna kick you in the mouth and delivers.

So, you're saying HBK says fewer things than Cena?

But, again, what is being said is only part of what makes someone good on the mic. It's also how it's delivered, and how well it's spoken. Cena is very well spoken on the mic. HBK, while he rarely flubs, speaks much slower and more deliberately.

I'm not bashing HBK, I'm just saying his mic skills are not that great.

I have yet to see an exciting match from Cena.

Then you should watch more Cena matches.

Start with Royal Rumble 2007. Then go to GAB vs. Lashley. HBK on Raw. HHH at Wrestlemania. RVD at ONS 2.

If you don't find those exciting, then I don't know what you enjoy.

I understand that his '5-moves of death' are underestimating him. He has more then five, but sadly he brings them out rarely. How ridiculous is it that everyone goes crazy when he does something drastic by varying his moveset? He should be doing this more then just at PPVs. On normal TV he is stuck to a routine. HBK goes all out in every match I've seen him in. Just his in ring energy makes even the small moves he does light up.

Again, moves don't make someone a good wrestler.

If people paid to watch wrestling just for a bunch of moves, then WWE training videos would be a hot seller. But, they're not, now are they?

Again, this is based on opinion. I'm not going to be a dumbass and tell the rest of you what to think. Obviously HBK fans are going to be voting 'HBK' and Cena fans are going to be voting 'Cena'.

I'm as big of a Cena fan as anyone here, and I voted for HBK, simply because of his large volume of high quality work.

But, to compare them now, I don't think it's really a fair comparison. HBK is old, and Cena doesn't have a comparable amount of time for a career. Cena is better than HBK now, and anyone who argues that is probably a Cena hater or an HBK fan. But, over their respective careers, at this point, HBK is better.

Let's knock off the 'Take off the blinders' and 'quit wasting my time with this'. For someone to get so caught up in someone elses opinion is literally ******ed. Get over the fact that not everyone has the same opinion as you, and quit trying to bring FACT into something that is purely OPINION.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kliq]

The way you take the things people say and twist them a little is quite frustrating, but its a talent I guess. So let me set you straight on a few choice issues you had with my post, of course 'quoting' each and every little thing that you don't agree with, which is my example of you taking it personally. Now I am going to do the same thing because at least I admit, I do take it personally when you incorrectly interpret what I say, even though I am pretty sure you knew what I meant. You just have a sarcastic personality I take it. First off:

It's actually a pretty tough call. HBK had a very poor drawing reign in 1996, so bad that people were cheering Psycho Sid when he beat HBK. Ratings bottomed out in '96, as did PPV buys, and the WWF was the closest they had ever been to bankruptcy.

If I meant 1996 alone I would have said it. But you backed yourself into a corner with this one pal, because if you look at drawing reigns by the crowd's vocal reaction to the wrestler, Cena has been shit outta luck more times then I care to recall. I'll admit the fans have been mostly with him as of late, but within the past year he has nearly been boo'd out of the building in all of his matches. The WWE might not be near bankruptcy now, but they are still at some of the lowest ratings in a decade. So while HBK might have had a 'Cena type year' in 1996, Cena isn't doing much better even now.

Agreed. I think when comparing HBK today against Cena, Cena wins.

Comparing HBK's large body of work against Cena, I think HBK is ahead. Just keep in mind, Cena is only 30 years old.

I respect your opinion when comparing HBK to Cena today, but I don't agree. Wrestlemania 23 was a perfect example of HBK versus Cena, and the crowd was just slightly more with HBK, and the match was great because HBK just had so much heart. When you look at Cena in the ring he acts like its a joke. The 'you can't see me' bologna is annoying, and you can actually hear the toddlers in the area saying it along with him. Its childish, but I guess that's what you call being a great 'entertainer' is all about.

No, it's the nature of wrestling forums.

The nature of wrestling forums is fact not opinion? I don't think so. I think it is a hearty mix of both, but when someone goes out of their way to try and prove peoples OPINIONS wrong, it is just silly.

But if you want to play the fact game, here you go: WWE superstar theme ringtones list Shawn Michaels in the top 10 most buys, but Cena is no where to be found.

Yes, why worry about facts?

Here is an example of how you twist people's words. I never said facts were a bad thing. I said this is an opinion poll. It would literally be impossible to actually know who is better, and I said 'I don't care how much Cena evidence slyfox has' because it doesn't matter. None of your evidence proves Cena is better. For every comment you have FOR Cena, there is one AGAINST.

I actually can't wait for Cena to return, I don't think he is too bad of guy, I just think the direction you are taking in this poll is a little outlandish.

Taking it personally? When?

It just seems to me that every time someone disagrees with you, or presents their opinion in a different way, you have to argue it. If that is in your nature, then I respect that, but sometimes I think you are a little harsh when picking apart the opinions of others.

So, you're saying HBK says fewer things than Cena?

But, again, what is being said is only part of what makes someone good on the mic. It's also how it's delivered, and how well it's spoken. Cena is very well spoken on the mic. HBK, while he rarely flubs, speaks much slower and more deliberately.

I'm not bashing HBK, I'm just saying his mic skills are not that great.

Haha, again you misunderstand. No, I am not saying HBK speaks less than Cena, you took my examples too literally. What I was saying, was that what HBK has to say sounds clearer and less corny than Cena. Cena does that thing where he gets up on one foot and continuously points to the ground with his arm outstretched while he yells into the mic. He is just wild, and if half of the things that he says were as great as his energy, he would be on par with HBK's promos. Right now, he is not even close. Again, my opinion, you might think differently.

Then you should watch more Cena matches.

Start with Royal Rumble 2007. Then go to GAB vs. Lashley. HBK on Raw. HHH at Wrestlemania. RVD at ONS 2.

If you don't find those exciting, then I don't know what you enjoy.

If I was to pull a 'slyfox', I would say something like "So Cena's matches have only gotten exciting since the Royal Rumble?". However, I do enjoy his matches, but there is a difference between 'enjoy' and 'find exciting'. He just doesn't do anything in the ring that jumps out at you. Sure he pulls a clever stunt now and then, but HBK just thrills me more. Again, personal preference.

Again, moves don't make someone a good wrestler.

If people paid to watch wrestling just for a bunch of moves, then WWE training videos would be a hot seller. But, they're not, now are they?

True, moves alone don't, but they certainly play a part. I love the finishing moves of superstars like DDP and HBK because they can come from no where, and these moves are apart of why I enjoy them. I actually agree fully about moves not mattering that much, which I find rare in wrestling forums. Mostly people judge wrestlers based on there in-ring ability, but I tend to look at personality more, which is why I am a huge Kevin Nash fan.

I have to say, though, if WWE training videos were actually for sale, I imagine they would be purchased by a select group of diehards. I personally would pay for the training vids. of some of my favorite wrestlers.

I'm as big of a Cena fan as anyone here, and I voted for HBK, simply because of his large volume of high quality work.

But, to compare them now, I don't think it's really a fair comparison. HBK is old, and Cena doesn't have a comparable amount of time for a career. Cena is better than HBK now, and anyone who argues that is probably a Cena hater or an HBK fan. But, over their respective careers, at this point, HBK is better.

I would have liked 'older' better than 'old', but that's just me.

It is your opinion that Cena is better, and I wont try to make you change your mind. However, even as of last monday night, I believe HBK is the better entertainer. You said a few posts ago that you could name 15 prowrestlers that are better than HBK. That stung a little, and I disagree whole-heartily. If this poll was between HBK and everyone else currently wrestling at this time, I'd still stick with the Show Stoppa.

Bottom line: It isn't a fact that Cena is better, and you don't have to be a Cena hater or HBK fan to figure that out. I respect your opinions, and thoroughly enjoy your posts, not only in this thread, but throughout the forum due to the amount of passion you seem to pour out in each.

I might just be stubborn about mine too, but isn't that what being a fan is all about?

 

[Slyfox696]

The way you take the things people say and twist them a little is quite frustrating, but its a talent I guess. So let me set you straight on a few choice issues you had with my post, of course 'quoting' each and every little thing that you don't agree with, which is my example of you taking it personally.

Meh, you'll soon come to find out that has nothing to do with taking something personally. I do it to any and everyone on anything I discuss.

If I meant 1996 alone I would have said it. But you backed yourself into a corner with this one pal, because if you look at drawing reigns by the crowd's vocal reaction to the wrestler, Cena has been shit outta luck more times then I care to recall. I'll admit the fans have been mostly with him as of late, but within the past year he has nearly been boo'd out of the building in all of his matches. The WWE might not be near bankruptcy now, but they are still at some of the lowest ratings in a decade. So while HBK might have had a 'Cena type year' in 1996, Cena isn't doing much better even now.

The difference between Cena and HBK though is their drawing ability.

As a long-term mainstay in the Cena thread, you think I just put that HBK was booed without realizing that Cena was as well? The difference was that people were still giving their money to Cena. That was not true of HBK.

Oh, and, you said "some of the lowest ratings in a decade"...you mean, back when HBK was champion?

I respect your opinion when comparing HBK to Cena today, but I don't agree. Wrestlemania 23 was a perfect example of HBK versus Cena, and the crowd was just slightly more with HBK, and the match was great because HBK just had so much heart.

Actually, Wrestlemania and the Raw in England was a PERFECT example of how good Cena really is. Name me all the other great matches HBK has had in the last 3 years, that didn't include Cena. 1? Angle at WM 21 (which I feel is overrated, but whatever).

It wasn't until HBK got into his feud with Cena that it seemed HBK actually started caring again.

When you look at Cena in the ring he acts like its a joke. The 'you can't see me' bologna is annoying, and you can actually hear the toddlers in the area saying it along with him. Its childish, but I guess that's what you call being a great 'entertainer' is all about.

What's wrong with entertaining children too?

Besides, I thought we were past this whole "Cena's only fans are women and children" nonsense.

The nature of wrestling forums is fact not opinion? I don't think so. I think it is a hearty mix of both, but when someone goes out of their way to try and prove peoples OPINIONS wrong, it is just silly.

I'm not going to spend time and go out of my way to say "In my opinion" every damn time I make a post. Clearly, in a matter like this, a lot of it is opinion, so why waste my time with needless information that should automatically be assumed?

But if you want to play the fact game, here you go: WWE superstar theme ringtones list Shawn Michaels in the top 10 most buys, but Cena is no where to be found.

Here's another fact for you.

Of the $56.4 million dollars the WWE pulled in from merchandise in 2004, Cena drew over $12 million dollars of that by himself, as an upper-midcard wrestler.

Now, combine that with the fact he was champion, number 1 guy in the company, with a ton of merchandise, and I think it's easy to see why merchandising revenue from the WWE has grown nearly $20 million dollars every year since 2004.

Here is an example of how you twist people's words. I never said facts were a bad thing. I said this is an opinion poll. It would literally be impossible to actually know who is better, and I said 'I don't care how much Cena evidence slyfox has' because it doesn't matter. None of your evidence proves Cena is better. For every comment you have FOR Cena, there is one AGAINST.

When stating an opinion, what makes it worthy and credible is facts. The best way to support an argument is with objective facts. That is what I try to do in any argument.

I actually can't wait for Cena to return, I don't think he is too bad of guy, I just think the direction you are taking in this poll is a little outlandish.

What's outlandish is when people come on this poll and say "this isn't even a debate". Because, it SHOULD be.

However, since there seems to be a "hate Cena" bias in the IWC, people tend to have trouble thinking for themselves. Thus, the increased need for facts, like I present, and you seem to hate so much.

It just seems to me that every time someone disagrees with you, or presents their opinion in a different way, you have to argue it. If that is in your nature, then I respect that, but sometimes I think you are a little harsh when picking apart the opinions of others.

Sorry?

With all due respect, and I mean no personal offense by this, but I really don't care. I've had so many people bash and flame and say anything to me, but I don't take it personal. I could argue violently with one person in one thread, and then joke around with them in another. If someone takes it personal, that's not my problem.

If someone disagrees with me, then obviously, I feel they are wrong.


But, one thing is for certain. Most threads seem to draw just a little more interest whenever I get into a heated argument with at least one person. Because, people love to discuss, and I'm not like most typical IWC fans.

If I was to pull a 'slyfox',

You're not worthy.

I would say something like "So Cena's matches have only gotten exciting since the Royal Rumble?".

And, if I were to pull a Slyfox, then I'd gladly point out that two of those matches happened in 2006. HHH at WM 22, and RVD at ONS 2.

But, thank god that's not the case.

However, I do enjoy his matches, but there is a difference between 'enjoy' and 'find exciting'. He just doesn't do anything in the ring that jumps out at you. Sure he pulls a clever stunt now and then, but HBK just thrills me more. Again, personal preference.

Again, no offfense intended, but who cares what YOU find exciting? What matters is what MOST fans find exciting, and time and again, wrestling fans on the whole and made it very clear they find Cena matches more exciting than anyone else. That's why his matches always have the hottest crowd, whether it be for, against, or split in favor.

It is your opinion that Cena is better, and I wont try to make you change your mind. However, even as of last monday night, I believe HBK is the better entertainer. You said a few posts ago that you could name 15 prowrestlers that are better than HBK. That stung a little, and I disagree whole-heartily. If this poll was between HBK and everyone else currently wrestling at this time, I'd still stick with the Show Stoppa.

I can name 15 wrestlers all-time who is better than HBK all-time.

As for naming 15 wrestlers right now who are better than HBK right now? I'm not sure, that'd be a lot tougher. But, all-time? Easy.

 

[Kliq]

The difference between Cena and HBK though is their drawing ability.

As a long-term mainstay in the Cena thread, you think I just put that HBK was booed without realizing that Cena was as well? The difference was that people were still giving their money to Cena. That was not true of HBK.

Oh, and, you said "some of the lowest ratings in a decade"...you mean, back when HBK was champion?

The ratings are currently lower then any of HBK's title reigns. ;]

Actually, Wrestlemania and the Raw in England was a PERFECT example of how good Cena really is. Name me all the other great matches HBK has had in the last 3 years, that didn't include Cena. 1? Angle at WM 21 (which I feel is overrated, but whatever).

It wasn't until HBK got into his feud with Cena that it seemed HBK actually started caring again.

I personally feel that his matches with DX were great. Anything he has done alone speaks for itself. Obviously you aren't going to agree because you are narrow minded. A fan of HBK is going to think everything he does is great, and it is ridiculous that you think what you have to say is right. Its not, get over yourself.

Here's another fact for you.

Of the $56.4 million dollars the WWE pulled in from merchandise in 2004, Cena drew over $12 million dollars of that by himself, as an upper-midcard wrestler.

Now, combine that with the fact he was champion, number 1 guy in the company, with a ton of merchandise, and I think it's easy to see why merchandising revenue from the WWE has grown nearly $20 million dollars every year since 2004.

Haha, so you couldn't find anything better? Until you give me numbers of at LEAST 2006, you don't have shit. My fact was as of TODAY.

What's outlandish is when people come on this poll and say "this isn't even a debate". Because, it SHOULD be.

However, since there seems to be a "hate Cena" bias in the IWC, people tend to have trouble thinking for themselves. Thus, the increased need for facts, like I present, and you seem to hate so much.

I agree, it should be a debate, which is why I love responding to your one-track way of thinking. No, I love your facts, what I don't love is the way you just can't take the fact that some people think Shawn Michaels is the best out of the two today.

And, if I were to pull a Slyfox, then I'd gladly point out that two of those matches happened in 2006. HHH at WM 22, and RVD at ONS 2

Okay so he had two good matches in 2006 and only started getting exciting since then?

No offense, but I think I do a better slyfox.

Again, no offfense intended, but who cares what YOU find exciting? What matters is what MOST fans find exciting, and time and again, wrestling fans on the whole and made it very clear they find Cena matches more exciting than anyone else. That's why his matches always have the hottest crowd, whether it be for, against, or split in favor.

I couldn't believe this particular segment. You are a hypocrite. You say you want this to be a debate, but 'who cares' what I find exciting? This whole THREAD is about that. Excitement is a whole portion of my basis for choosing who I did. So before you go around saying stuff like that, remember where you are.

And I have to say that I disagree with his matches being exciting when the fans reaction to him is negative. People chanting things about how they wish it was someone else wrestling instead of Cena, does not make for exciting matches.

I can name 15 wrestlers all-time who is better than HBK all-time.

As for naming 15 wrestlers right now who are better than HBK right now? I'm not sure, that'd be a lot tougher. But, all-time? Easy.

Okay, so 'all-time'. Again I disagree, but that is because I am an HBK fan. I respect how well certain superstars did for the business, but I can't name more than 5 who were better draws and no one that was more exciting.

 

[Slyfox696]

The ratings are currently lower then any of HBK's title reigns. ;]

No they're not.

http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm

Proof.

I personally feel that his matches with DX were great. Anything he has done alone speaks for itself. Obviously you aren't going to agree because you are narrow minded. A fan of HBK is going to think everything he does is great, and it is ridiculous that you think what you have to say is right. Its not, get over yourself.

You're calling me narrow-minded because I say HBK's been sleepwalking through the last 2-3 years and seemingly not giving a damn about exerting maximum effort in his matches, unless he's in the spotlight?

I hardly call that narrow-minded, but rather objective. Look at HBK from 93-97. Now, with the exception of Angle and Cena, which matches from 05-07 come cloase to matching some of those?

Face it, HBK has been less than stellar since Wrestlemania 21.

Haha, so you couldn't find anything better? Until you give me numbers of at LEAST 2006, you don't have shit. My fact was as of TODAY.

I just told you that WWE merchandising increased by nearly $20 million dollars over the last two years while John Cena was champion. Before Cena was champion there was a period of 3 or 4 years where figures hovered around the same mark, or even dropped.

And, your fact? Cell phone ringtones? Surely you are just having some fun if you're using that as some kind of fact.

I agree, it should be a debate, which is why I love responding to your one-track way of thinking. No, I love your facts, what I don't love is the way you just can't take the fact that some people think Shawn Michaels is the best out of the two today.

And, you can't take the fact that HBK is not far and away the better wrestler, and that some people think Cena is better.

Or, you can't take the fact that I take the time to correct those mistaken people who believe HBK is far and away the better wrestler.

1 of the 2.

Okay so he had two good matches in 2006 and only started getting exciting since then?

No, those were the matches I directed you to since you obviously haven't seen them, if you say Cena matches aren't "exciting".

Those were the tip of the iceberg. If you said that you didn't like Elton John, do you think I would refer you to his first album and say listen to all the songs? Or would I give you a good sample of his finest work, and hook you in that way? Yeah, probably the latter.

So it goes with Cena.

No offense, but I think I do a better slyfox.

If you can't even capitalize the name, you have no shot at being better. You lose.

I couldn't believe this particular segment. You are a hypocrite. You say you want this to be a debate, but 'who cares' what I find exciting? This whole THREAD is about that. Excitement is a whole portion of my basis for choosing who I did. So before you go around saying stuff like that, remember where you are.

It's amazing how particular wrestling fans have such high opinions of themselves. It DOESN'T matter what you find exciting. It doesn't matter what I find exciting. What matters is what the masses find exciting.

So, before you go around spouting off, you should probably understand what this thread is asking.

And I have to say that I disagree with his matches being exciting when the fans reaction to him is negative. People chanting things about how they wish it was someone else wrestling instead of Cena, does not make for exciting matches.

That's never happened. There may be Cena sucks chants, or cheering for the heel, but I can honestly say that I've NEVER seen a Cena match where fans were chanting another wrestlers name that was not involved in the match/feud.

I have seen several angles, however, where a heel beats up a face and the crowd starts chanting for Cena.

Cena's matches are hot. The crowd is electric for them. Even someone who would hate Cena has to admit that.

Okay, so 'all-time'. Again I disagree, but that is because I am an HBK fan. I respect how well certain superstars did for the business, but I can't name more than 5 who were better draws and no one that was more exciting.

Hogan, Andre, Bruno, Flair, Austin, Rock, Savage, Warrior, Piper, Hart.

There's 10 guys who are UNQUESTIONABLY bigger draws and were more exciting than HBK. And that was without even trying, or adding guys like Luger, Goldberg, Sting, Magnum, Von Erichs, Steamboat, Inoki, Muta, Mitsuhara, Rey, Liger, Undertaker, HHH....all guys who have legitimate claims to being better draws and more exciting than HBK.

 

[Mintball]

Cena by a mile and here is why

http://ujeb.pl/1880/

 

[Kliq]

I'm tired of arguing with you, you obviously don't understand the concept of this thread. This is an OPINION poll and to say that my OPINION on whether or not Cena and HBK are exciting doesn't matter is ridiculous. I'm not sure if you just like the tone of your own voice, but it wont get you far in life if you constantly try to better other peoples opinions. It is a sad fact of life my friend, and you aren't doing too well. I could continue to argue every little comment you give me, but I know it would be in vain due to your restless personality. I'll finish, however, with just one thing.

And, you can't take the fact that HBK is not far and away the better wrestler, and that some people think Cena is better.

Or, you can't take the fact that I take the time to correct those mistaken people who believe HBK is far and away the better wrestler.

1 of the 2.

I respect those who think Cena is the greatest thing today, I just don't agree. It is their opinion, and I can certainly see evidence to justify it.

You are right, I am completely appauled by the fact that you are trying to disprove peoples opinions. It can't be done.

Bottom Line (again): If someone says HBK is FAR AND AWAY the better wrestler TODAY, in their own opinion, who the hell are you to force your negativity on them? No one, you don't matter, and if you get off on the fact that you can try to change peoples minds, I feel sorry for you.

I just like HBK better and I would argue until I die to explain why I think that. Don't try to tell me facts about how that is incorrect when it is my personal preference. You would be shouting down an empty hallway.

I don't have any problem with your feelings toward Cena and HBK, but let me have my opinion just like I let you have yours.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnc2upz1lA8

HBK V SHELTON PART 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGG9lBBk79U

HBK V SHELTON PART 2

This proves why hbk Is the better wrestler, i dont believe this is about who draws, or who has the biggest pop, its about ability and i believe that HBK trumps Cena by miles.

HBK is a wrestler and Cena is merly a bi product of the sports entertainment industry

 

[hbk&triple h]

It's actually a pretty tough call. HBK had a very poor drawing reign in 1996, so bad that people were cheering Psycho Sid when he beat HBK. Ratings bottomed out in '96, as did PPV buys, and the WWF was the closest they had ever been to bankruptcy.

Agreed. I think when comparing HBK today against Cena, Cena wins.

So, you're saying HBK says fewer things than Cena?

But, again, what is being said is only part of what makes someone good on the mic. It's also how it's delivered, and how well it's spoken. Cena is very well spoken on the mic. HBK, while he rarely flubs, speaks much slower and more deliberately.

I'm not bashing HBK, I'm just saying his mic skills are not that great.

Start with Royal Rumble 2007. Then go to GAB vs. Lashley. HBK on Raw. HHH at Wrestlemania. RVD at ONS 2.

If you don't find those exciting, then I don't know what you enjoy.

Again, moves don't make someone a good wrestler.

[/QUOTE]



Shawn may have had poor ratings. Sure. As of lately though John hasn't been bringing in great ratings either.

Ummmmm comparing Cena to Shawn as of 2007 I agree. But still John has yet to surpass the skills of Shawn Michaels TODAY.

I've said before that John is very repetitive on the mic. But you have said its the way the bookers do things. The same can be said for Shawn. They are just going out there and being told what to say. BUt Shawn just puts more fire and rage into it when it is something serious. He can change to comedic as well. But when he does it, it doesn't seem like a knockoff of the Roc. John goes out there looking like a mad man every week. Just my opinion though.

Royal Rumble:It was a highly entertaining match.I'll give you that one. But the match was nowhere close of being a 5 star match though.

GAB:I found the match falling short of what it really was built up to be. Surprisingly an OK match but nothing special.

Raw:This was his best match so far and definetly Moty contender.

Wrestlemania 22efinetly a piss poor main event.This would be a match I would prefer in the mid card somewhere.

ONS 2:It was mostly enjoyable because of the rowdy crowd.

Kliq don't get mad at Slyfox's posts. I've dealt with them before and know how aggrevating they may become, :]. But he is educated in his posts. ANd really knows how to piss people off. Anyways,

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm tired of arguing with you, you obviously don't understand the concept of this thread. This is an OPINION poll and to say that my OPINION on whether or not Cena and HBK are exciting doesn't matter is ridiculous.

Have you even read the thread title or the opening post yet? When you do, get back to me where it says "in your opinion".

And, as far as that goes, why are you singling ME out for expressing my opinion as fact? There are nearly 250 posts in this thread, most of which express someone stating that it's not even close that HBK is better than Cena, and other arguing. I don't see any of them stating "in my opinion".

The thread title and opening post indicate that there is a right/wrong answer. No where in the opening does it say "what do you feel" or anything of the sort.

So, I'm giving my opinion as fact and backing it up with reasonable argument. I'm sorry if you have a problem with this, but I honestly could not care less.

I'm not sure if you just like the tone of your own voice, but it wont get you far in life if you constantly try to better other peoples opinions.

I don't recall asking for your advice on how to "get...far in life".

It is a sad fact of life my friend, and you aren't doing too well.

You don't even know a single thing about me, other than what I have posted in this thread primarily and in a couple other threads, and you think you know me well enough to know how I'm doing in life?

I could continue to argue every little comment you give me, but I know it would be in vain due to your restless personality. I'll finish, however, with just one thing.

At least I'm not the one including personal attacks in my post, calling you a failure at life and how you need to work on how you behave.

You are right, I am completely appauled by the fact that you are trying to disprove peoples opinions. It can't be done.

Then why do you continue to try and do it to me? Why not just leave me alone, let me post what I want, when I want, and don't say a thing about it?

It seems to me as if you're being slightly hypocritical here.

Bottom Line (again): If someone says HBK is FAR AND AWAY the better wrestler TODAY, in their own opinion, who the hell are you to force your negativity on them?

And, in my opinion, it is perfectly justified to point out all the mistakes I feel a person makes in their post, or underestimating what one wrestler does.

So, who the hell are you to tell me I'm not allowed to do so?

No one, you don't matter, and if you get off on the fact that you can try to change peoples minds, I feel sorry for you.

It's a discussion/debate forum. Is that not how discussion works in real life, when two people offer different opinions?

Shawn may have had poor ratings. Sure. As of lately though John hasn't been bringing in great ratings either.

2005 and 2006 completely DWARF HBK's '96 run, and until Chris Benoit killed his wife and son, 2007 was doing the exact same.

Ummmmm comparing Cena to Shawn as of 2007 I agree. But still John has yet to surpass the skills of Shawn Michaels TODAY.

Based on what? In what way is Shawn Michaels a better professional wrestler than Cena today?

Royal Rumble:It was a highly entertaining match.I'll give you that one. But the match was nowhere close of being a 5 star match though.

On the contrary, it was arguably the best match of the year. It's also a perfect example of how matches SHOULD be done. So many so-called "smarks" seem to think that a great match has to have big aerial spots or "technical wrestling" to be considered a good match. It's not true. So many posters on here don't seem to understand that a good match utilizes deeper intangibles, things that really make a match stand out.

That's why the same people who think Shelton Benjamin is a good wrestler, thinks Hulk Hogan sucks. And yet, there is absolutely ZERO evidence to support such a theory.

GAB:I found the match falling short of what it really was built up to be. Surprisingly an OK match but nothing special.

If it was just an OK match, then why did the crowd slowly build into what amounted to a near fever pitch for the end of the match? Watch the match again, and see the crowd's interest before, during and at the end of the match. Rate, on a scale of 1-10, the crowd's interest in the match as it goes along. See what happens.

Then, come back and try and explain to me your results, if it was only an "ok" match.

Raw:This was his best match so far and definetly Moty contender.

I prefer RR 07, but still a fantastic match.

Wrestlemania 22efinetly a piss poor main event.This would be a match I would prefer in the mid card somewhere.

What was piss poor about it? It had a solid story, Cena and HHH worked the crowd masterfully, the selling throughout was spot-on and psychology was decent enough.

How is it a piss poor main-event? In your mind.

ONS 2:It was mostly enjoyable because of the rowdy crowd.

Then why wasn't Batista vs. The Big Show enjoyable? Was there not a rowdy crowd there too?

The difference was the Cena is a MASTER at working a crowd. Cena manipulated those Hammerstein idiots like the fools they were. He was the master, saying, "Dance, puppets, dance". Cena owned that place. THAT'S why the match was so good.

Kliq don't get mad at Slyfox's posts. I've dealt with them before and know how aggrevating they may become, :]. But he is educated in his posts. ANd really knows how to piss people off. Anyways,

I don't understand why people get mad at my posts. Most of the time, people get mad at my posts, and I have no intention for them to do so. Why can people not understand that it's simply a debate, and no personal feelings are involved at all?

I've never been able to understand why people can't separate debate from feelings.

 

[a7xoff]

Ok lets see here... To avoid getting picked apart by Slyfox I'm going to explain a little bit why I say Cena. I do mean the HBK that we see today is mediocre compared to what he was. As far as the HBK that we see today goes, I think he sucks. No offence to him, but he is getting old and he's not as flashy to watch. Cena though his moveset is not all that impressive certainly draws the crowds. He is much more charismatic then HBK is, and is much more intense in the ring as well. Now should this question been asked a while back, and had Cena been in the WWE when HBK was facing the likes of Brett Hart or the original DX for that matter my pick would hands down be HBK. Times change though and that gives Cena my nod...

 

[psykohurricane]

Shwn Micheals is the best wrestler by far but i don't think it fair to put Cena against Micheals in this category simply because Cena doesn't have the same years of experience in the ring that Micheals has. Plus Shawn Micheals didn'T have to hold a whole company on is back at the beginning of his career like Cena. So to compare the 2 of them is like comparing Apple and Orange, Cena has become a pretty good wrestler even with all the pressure he was under for the last couple of years and i'm sure that as time goes by, he will become an even better wrestler that he is now, he just need experience and a break from the spotlight. I not going to say that Cena will ever become as good as Micheals but was in is prime but he still can evolve into a great wrestler.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Based on what? In what way is Shawn Michaels a better professional wrestler than Cena today?

On the contrary, it was arguably the best match of the year. It's also a perfect example of how matches SHOULD be done. So many so-called "smarks" seem to think that a great match has to have big aerial spots or "technical wrestling" to be considered a good match. It's not true. So many posters on here don't seem to understand that a good match utilizes deeper intangibles, things that really make a match stand out.

That's why the same people who think Shelton Benjamin is a good wrestler, thinks Hulk Hogan sucks. And yet, there is absolutely ZERO evidence to support such a theory.

If it was just an OK match, then why did the crowd slowly build into what amounted to a near fever pitch for the end of the match? Watch the match again, and see the crowd's interest before, during and at the end of the match. Rate, on a scale of 1-10, the crowd's interest in the match as it goes along. See what happens.

Then, come back and try and explain to me your results, if it was only an "ok" match.

I prefer RR 07, but still a fantastic match.

What was piss poor about it? It had a solid story, Cena and HHH worked the crowd masterfully, the selling throughout was spot-on and psychology was decent enough.

How is it a piss poor main-event? In your mind.

I don't understand why people get mad at my posts. Most of the time, people get mad at my posts, and I have no intention for them to do so. Why can people not understand that it's simply a debate, and no personal feelings are involved at all?

I've never been able to understand why people can't separate debate from feelings.

Maybe I will agree with you on the fact that Cena was the better wrestler this year but he has been around this while year where Shawn has not.

Matches to me at least do not need some flashy high move or a great technical masterpiece, but it needs something to make it stand out or it will just get thrown in the bunch of matches that have happened.That being said it was an entertaining match but nothing special happened, nothing memorable happened, nothing remotely close to making it the best match of the year.But great match.

On the contrary, I love Shelton but don't think Hogan sucks at all. Altough, I have not seen much of his work outside of the WWE I do not think he sucks.

See, the crowd was great.John Cena can work a crowd but the crowd is just one thing out of many things that make a match great.Overall, the match was OK.The crowd was probably a 9 but the overall match meh a 6.

Definetly a fantastic match.It was amazing.

For a main event at Wrestlemania the match needs to be great.The story and the crowd were good.The wrestling was not very good though.Sure they sold the moves, but half of the moves were clotheslines. They could have had better wrestling. And the entrances probably lasted longer than the match.The crowd was red hot and was a 10 for sure.

It was just piss poor because I expected something way better than what was received.Now I wasn't expecting anything amazing from this match but I was expecting something better because it was the biggest show of the year in the main event.

I dont get mad anymore.I've learned.

 

[tb93]

The difference was the Cena is a MASTER at working a crowd. Cena manipulated those Hammerstein idiots like the fools they were. He was the master, saying, "Dance, puppets, dance". Cena owned that place. THAT'S why the match was so good.







cena didnt work the crowd, that crowd just hates him. i guarantee that cena couldnt get the hammerstein ballroom to cheer for him. I know how much nyc hates him because ive been to all the ballroom shows. however i agree with most your other points.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

cena is a good entertainer but in the end he is not a wrestler, so as far as im concerned, there is no comparison, there is a difference between ability and entertainment, john cena can work a crowd, michaels can work a crowd, cena can hold the company, so can michaels, but when it comes down to matt work michaels trumps cena

 

[Slyfox696]

See, the crowd was great.John Cena can work a crowd but the crowd is just one thing out of many things that make a match great.Overall, the match was OK.The crowd was probably a 9 but the overall match meh a 6.

Working the crowd may be the single most important thing to a match. Because, in order to work a crowd well, you have to do the other intangibles well.

Matches to me at least do not need some flashy high move or a great technical masterpiece, but it needs something to make it stand out or it will just get thrown in the bunch of matches that have happened.That being said it was an entertaining match but nothing special happened, nothing memorable happened, nothing remotely close to making it the best match of the year.But great match.

Nothing special or memorable happened? How about Cena throwing the steel steps at Umaga? How about using the ring ropes to apply the STF-U?

That wasn't memorable?

For a main event at Wrestlemania the match needs to be great.The story and the crowd were good.The wrestling was not very good though.Sure they sold the moves, but half of the moves were clotheslines. They could have had better wrestling. And the entrances probably lasted longer than the match.The crowd was red hot and was a 10 for sure.

Wait, they told a good story, and had the crowd into a frenzy. Combine that with them selling the moves well, and how do you figure it wasn't very good wrestling?

cena didnt work the crowd, that crowd just hates him. i guarantee that cena couldnt get the hammerstein ballroom to cheer for him. I know how much nyc hates him because ive been to all the ballroom shows. however i agree with most your other points.

They hated Big Show and Batista too, and yet there was a very real difference between the two matches. They wanted Cena to lose, and lose bad. They wanted RVD to kill Cena by the time the show was over. That wasn't the case with Tista/Show. They just wanted the match to be over, and weren't even paying attention to the match towards the end.

Cena wasn't trying to get the crowd to cheer him. But, notice his demeanor, notice his attitude. Notice how loooooong it took for Cena to go from move to move, something completely uncharacteristic of him. Notice how after the 5 count on the STF-U, Cena STILL didn't let go. Notice how after a move, Cena would look around, just daring the crowd to keep booing him (which, of course, they did).

Cena worked the crowd to perfection, and what started as a hate transformed into unbridled rage. Cena owned that crowd.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Nothing special or memorable happened? How about Cena throwing the steel steps at Umaga? How about using the ring ropes to apply the STF-U?


Wait, they told a good story, and had the crowd into a frenzy. Combine that with them selling the moves well, and how do you figure it wasn't very good wrestling?

The steel steps has been done before and isn't memorable one bit.The ropes was something different and was actually somewhat smart.

The actual wrestling was not that great.Clotheslines have never been so overused before.The wrestling wasn't that great.

John Cena hasn't had very great Wrestlemania matches.Shawn on the otherhand has.

Simply put Shawn is the better wrestler. Maybe as of now John is but Shawn beat Cena in most categories of wrestling.

 

[BRandonkin]

Maybe I missing something. But HBK at the Rumble was classic. Michaels brought the best out of Cena this past year. Michaels put on some damn good matches this year even though it ended in may. Over the other parts of the years since his return(except for the DX moments) he has been part of the best matches of WWE events. And ask anyone to look over the past 5 years and look at HBK and Cena matches and tell me one match on any PPV card that was Cena had that was better than HBK.

 

[reddeve10]

according to PWI, Shawn has been in 7 MOTYs. He only won two of them. He's able to be a great performer and bring out the best in his opponents even when he's not 'the guy.'

 

[raulandjessica]

John Cena doesn't even compare to Shawn Michaels.Shawn Michaels is a legend.He's been here longer, he's done more,he's whoop more ass and he's had more belts.John Cena has alot more years to catch up to Shawn Michaels.So there's no question SHAWN MICHAELS!!!!!!!!

 

[Kcorthe]

Comparing John Cena to Shawn Michaels is something that shouldn't even be asked.

John Cena is a great asset to WWE, he is a really hard worker and has a lot of dedication. Cena is very reliable and respected, and an all-around nice guy.

BUT, he is not that great in the ring. He's okay; that's about it.

Shawn Michaels is probably in the Top 5 greatest wrestler of all-time, based on ability, as well as many other things.

John Cena does not compare to HBK in hardly any categories, and especially wrestling.

So. I guess you have my opinion.

 

[Slyfox696]

according to PWI, Shawn has been in 7 MOTYs. He only won two of them. He's able to be a great performer and bring out the best in his opponents even when he's not 'the guy.'

According to PWI, John Cena has been the Wrestler of the Year 2 years in a row, and finished 2nd three years ago. So, he's finished 2nd, 1st, and 1st the last three years.

Shawn Michaels is probably in the Top 5 greatest wrestler of all-time, based on ability, as well as many other things..

No he's not. He's not even in the Top 5 of the last 10 years.

 

[BRandonkin]

According to PWI, John Cena has been the Wrestler of the Year 2 years in a row, and finished 2nd three years ago. So, he's finished 2nd, 1st, and 1st the last three years.



No he's not. He's not even in the Top 5 of the last 10 years.

Top Five of the past 10 year, yes. Top 10 of all time maybe. Top 15, definitely. Nobody is as consistent wheather winning or losing as HBK. This year WWE PPV were much better since Royal Rumblw while HBK was the main man. I think that a testament to HBK. I'm sorry but I just cannot putCena in HBK league

 

[Slyfox696]

Top Five of the past 10 year, yes. Top 10 of all time maybe. Top 15, definitely. Nobody is as consistent wheather winning or losing as HBK. This year WWE PPV were much better since Royal Rumblw while HBK was the main man. I think that a testament to HBK. I'm sorry but I just cannot putCena in HBK league

Bret Hart, Benoit, Mysterio, Guerrero, Jericho, Austin, Rock, HHH and Hogan have all outdone HBK going back to 1997.

Hogan, Savage, Flair, Andre, Bruno, Sting, Warrior, Austin, Rock, Steamboat, Liger, Foley, Funk....I would put every one of them clearly ahead of HBK, with only Sting being the possible exception (and that's coming from a HUGE Sting fan).