Who's The Better Wrestler?

[hbk&triple h]

At NO point has Cena ever been in a match where the crowd was not hot.

While I agree that he always has a crowd pumped, have you realized at least half the times are him being the one getting boo'd when he shouldn't. Wrestlemania 22 is the perfect example. John Cena went in being face and got ripped apart by the crowd.Not all the times is the crowd on the right side. Other than that I agree that he has a way with energizing a crowd.

But in all honesty, Shawn has enetertained a crowd to a level a lot of men haven't. Shawn Michaels at almost every Wrestlemania manages to enetertain the crowd more than John Cena has. The only match that comes close in crowd reactions to Shawn's matches are Wrestlemania 22 and ONS 2.

 

[Slyfox696]

I know this will likely spark you, but to a point.. that statement is.. wrong. John Cena had a down period, at the very beginning of this career, when he didn't have any type of "identity."

I was referring to the time he's been in the main-event. Same goes for Shawn Michaels.

While I agree that he always has a crowd pumped, have you realized at least half the times are him being the one getting boo'd when he shouldn't. Wrestlemania 22 is the perfect example. John Cena went in being face and got ripped apart by the crowd.Not all the times is the crowd on the right side. Other than that I agree that he has a way with energizing a crowd.

1. Who cares?
2. If heels are getting cheered, then they are not doing a good job. Heels are what make faces popular, not the other way around.
3. Cena is only booed by fans who think they know a lot more about wrestling than they really do. He's booed by fans who think that 17 arm bars, headlocks and key locks are good wrestling, and anything else is crap.

The fact that SO many people, every where he goes, cares about a John Cena match speaks volumes of his ability.

But in all honesty, Shawn has enetertained a crowd to a level a lot of men haven't. Shawn Michaels at almost every Wrestlemania manages to enetertain the crowd more than John Cena has. The only match that comes close in crowd reactions to Shawn's matches are Wrestlemania 22 and ONS 2.

Let me guess, you watched the new HBK DVD right? John Cena got a massive reaction wrestling piss poor JBL at WM 21, Cena's match outdid HBK's at WM 22 in reaction easily, and they wrestled each other in WM 23.

I'm not saying HBK isn't a good wrestler, or that, over his career, he hasn't been better than Cena over his career, but right now, Cena is probably better. And by the time both have retired and we can measure careers equally, who knows who will come out ahead.

 

[Shocky]

2. If heels are getting cheered, then they are not doing a good job. Heels are what make faces popular, not the other way around.

In all fairness though, there are sometimes where no matter what the heel does, the fans don't allow them to be a heel.

Sometimes the fans simply control the direction of a character. It doesn't matter how hard someone plays a heel, if they strike a chord with the audience, then the audience is going to cheer for them, regardless of how heelish they become.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I was referring to the time he's been in the main-event. Same goes for Shawn Michaels.

2. If heels are getting cheered, then they are not doing a good job. Heels are what make faces popular, not the other way around.

Ah, then I agree. Neither Shawn Michaels, or John Cena were truly accepted until they hit a form of stardom. But, Michaels in the Rockers got a bigger reaction from the crowd than Cena as "Taker's understudy."

And regarding the "2." thing.. couldn't the same be said about John Cena being a face, thats boo'd? I mean, its a heels job to get boo'd, but its a faces job to get cheered.

Heels are suppose to make faces look strong, by attacking them from behind. But faces are suppose to make heels look bad, by gaining more crowd pop.

 

[hbk&triple h]

1. Who cares?
2. If heels are getting cheered, then they are not doing a good job. Heels are what make faces popular, not the other way around.
3. Cena is only booed by fans who think they know a lot more about wrestling than they really do. He's booed by fans who think that 17 arm bars, headlocks and key locks are good wrestling, and anything else is crap.

The fact that SO many people, every where he goes, cares about a John Cena match speaks volumes of his ability.




Let me guess, you watched the new HBK DVD right? John Cena got a massive reaction wrestling piss poor JBL at WM 21, Cena's match outdid HBK's at WM 22 in reaction easily, and they wrestled each other in WM 23.

I'm not saying HBK isn't a good wrestler, or that, over his career, he hasn't been better than Cena over his career, but right now, Cena is probably better. And by the time both have retired and we can measure careers equally, who knows who will come out ahead.

I agree exactly with what Paul said. Triple H couldn't control how the crowd cheered for him. John Cena had the title for a year and the crowd wanted it off of him. Triple H was dominating Cena, therefor the crowd was rooting for Triple H. Sometimes the wrestler can't control what the crowd does.

Example:Mickie James at Wrestlemania 22. The same exact thing happened. Trish got ripped apart. And she did nothing to make the crowd hate her.

Honestly, I think he is boo'd by people who dislike his character, and people who are sick of long, monotonous title reigns. I don't think it is out of wrestling ability.

Shawn's matches get talked about greatly as well. Everyone wants to see Shawn's matches because we usually get something out of it. At Wrestlemania 21, more people walked out of that building that night talking about Shawn and Kurt rather than John and JBL. I was there. I live twenty minutes away. He was in the main event that night and still people weren't talking about him winning the title.

And I haven't seen the new DVD yet actually.

 

[HeartBreakKid_Michaels]

Shawn Michaels all the way dudes! I mean Michaels is the man...though he really doesn't show up as much like when he was super popular he's still one of the best! He's the man that will always have fans!
I love Shawn & Jeff!

 

[Slyfox696]

In all fairness though, there are sometimes where no matter what the heel does, the fans don't allow them to be a heel.

I disagree, but I'll say this.

If it doesn't matter what heels do they get cheered, couldn't you say the same about faces getting booed? Thus, negating the point that Cena is inferior to HBK because he got booed?

And, if your statement is true, then explain how Kurt Angle got cheered, and Edge got mega heel heat. It's all in how you play the heel role. Edge did it far superior to Kurt Angle.

Ah, then I agree. Neither Shawn Michaels, or John Cena were truly accepted until they hit a form of stardom. But, Michaels in the Rockers got a bigger reaction from the crowd than Cena as "Taker's understudy."

Cena's crowd reaction when he showed up on Raw is greater than anything Shawn Michaels has done outside of one of his numerous post-retirement comebacks.

And regarding the "2." thing.. couldn't the same be said about John Cena being a face, thats boo'd? I mean, its a heels job to get boo'd, but its a faces job to get cheered.

Heels are suppose to make faces look strong, by attacking them from behind. But faces are suppose to make heels look bad, by gaining more crowd pop.

You can't have faces without good heels. See TNA or ROH up until about 2005 for proof. If everyone is cheered, then there's no such thing as faces, just guys who are liked more than others. Heels are what make faces.

I agree exactly with what Paul said. Triple H couldn't control how the crowd cheered for him. John Cena had the title for a year and the crowd wanted it off of him. Triple H was dominating Cena, therefor the crowd was rooting for Triple H. Sometimes the wrestler can't control what the crowd does.

Why not? Edge did.

Edge came out to a massive applause in Toronto, fans cheering his every move. It took 5 minutes on the stick for fans to turn on him and cheer overwhelmingly for Cena.

Kurt Angle and Edge both played piss-poor heels, although I still do'nt think HHH tried that hard in his program with Cena.

Shawn's matches get talked about greatly as well. Everyone wants to see Shawn's matches because we usually get something out of it. At Wrestlemania 21, more people walked out of that building that night talking about Shawn and Kurt rather than John and JBL. I was there. I live twenty minutes away. He was in the main event that night and still people weren't talking about him winning the title.

Most people don't even remember Shawn Michaels being on the Wrestlemania 8 card. Most people struggle to remember who his opponents were during the '96 run after Hart. Nobody talks about his match with Vader at Summerslam, because it was awful. I mean, how many matches did he have in his first run that people talk about? Heck, in his second run, who besides Austin did HBK have a great match with?

I'm not arguing that Cena's career is better than HBK's, just that they are not so far apart as people want to believe.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Cena's crowd reaction when he showed up on Raw is greater than anything Shawn Michaels has done outside of one of his numerous post-retirement comebacks.

I'm not entirely sure about that. I assume you're refering to the St. Louis Monday Night Raw, in which Cena was drafted there.

When you refer to Shawn Michaels & pop.. are you discounting the pop he's received on & off when he'd randomly show up for events? Such as when he was made commish.. or when he joined the n.W.o.? Because the reaction Cena got in St. Louis, to my knowledge, was not as big as the reaction H.B.K. got with either his debut as commish, or his n.W.o. debut.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm not entirely sure about that. I assume you're refering to the St. Louis Monday Night Raw, in which Cena was drafted there.

When you refer to Shawn Michaels & pop.. are you discounting the pop he's received on & off when he'd randomly show up for events? Such as when he was made commish.. or when he joined the n.W.o.? Because the reaction Cena got in St. Louis, to my knowledge, was not as big as the reaction H.B.K. got with either his debut as commish, or his n.W.o. debut.

Those would be post-retirement return pops, at least the commish was (I wasn't watching during the nWo thing). I'm talking about when he was a consistent regular performer.

Cena's reaction when he was drafted was enormous, and on a consistent basis, his matches get mega heat.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Those would be post-retirement return pops, at least the commish was (I wasn't watching during the nWo thing). I'm talking about when he was a consistent regular performer.

Cena's reaction when he was drafted was enormous, and on a consistent basis, his matches get mega heat.

So, you don't think even Shawn Michaels, & his Wrestlemania 12 entrance received as much pop? Or H.B.K.'s Royal Rumble 1996 victory got huge pop? (bigger than Cena's Raw debut)

 

[hbk&triple h]

Cena's crowd reaction when he showed up on Raw is greater than anything Shawn Michaels has done outside of one of his numerous post-retirement comebacks.

Why not? Edge did.

Edge came out to a massive applause in Toronto, fans cheering his every move. It took 5 minutes on the stick for fans to turn on him and cheer overwhelmingly for Cena.

Kurt Angle and Edge both played piss-poor heels, although I still do'nt think HHH tried that hard in his program with Cena.


Most people don't even remember Shawn Michaels being on the Wrestlemania 8 card. Most people struggle to remember who his opponents were during the '96 run after Hart. Nobody talks about his match with Vader at Summerslam, because it was awful. I mean, how many matches did he have in his first run that people talk about? Heck, in his second run, who besides Austin did HBK have a great match with?

John Cena's pop in St. Louis was big. Bigger than some of HBK? Definitely not. How about when Shawn won the title at Wrestlemania 12? Or his win in the Elimination Chamber at Survivor Series? Or him winning the Rumble? All of those were larger pops then Cena's Raw debut.

Wasn't Edge supposed to be boo'd considering he was the heel.?

Piss poor heels? Both men are great heels and Edge gets more heat than anyone on the roster today. Kurt Angle was a great heel.

I really didn't care about the HHH/Cena program. I kind of agree that it wasn't much effort on HHH's part.

His match at Wrestlemania 8 was great. But it was before he was seen as a big player. How many people talk about Cena's match at Wrestlemania 20?

In 96, they were sticking him with lousy people to wreslte in my opinion. Except for Vader, he was facing Goldust, Pyscho Sid, Bulldog, Diesel. Besides Bulldog how many people had talent from that list. However, Shawn's match with Mankind is amazing.

His second reign I believe one of his first matches was against Ken Shamrock. But he had a great Casket Match with the Undertaker.

 

[HBK-aholic]

3. Cena is only booed by fans who think they know a lot more about wrestling than they really do. He's booed by fans who think that 17 arm bars, headlocks and key locks are good wrestling, and anything else is crap.

The fact that SO many people, every where he goes, cares about a John Cena match speaks volumes of his ability.

Actually, he's only loved by fans who think they know more about wrestling than they actually do. Real wrestling fans see through the fact his matches are predominately all the same. That his wrestling skill didn't warrant the amount of time as champion, if a championship run at all. He isn't the worst wrestler of all time, but there are a hell of a lot better ones around today.

So many people care about his matches, because they wanted to see him actually get beaten when he deserved it! Which is a lot more often than he actually did get beat. His main fan base is women and young children, that much I could tell from a live event I went to.
I don't particularly care for his matches anymore, because I get bored of the fact their is no difference in any of them.

 

[Slyfox696]

John Cena's pop in St. Louis was big. Bigger than some of HBK? Definitely not. How about when Shawn won the title at Wrestlemania 12?

Approximately the same I would say.

Or his win in the Elimination Chamber at Survivor Series?

That was his retirement comeback nostalgia.

Or him winning the Rumble? All of those were larger pops then Cena's Raw debut.

This one easily was not.

Wasn't Edge supposed to be boo'd considering he was the heel.?

Yes. That's my point. He got booed and HHH and Angle did not.

Piss poor heels? Both men are great heels and Edge gets more heat than anyone on the roster today. Kurt Angle was a great heel.

I didn't mean Edge, I meant to say HHH. And both played piss poor heels against Cena.

And, Angle was not a great heel. His constant need to throw in high spots, playing to the crowd, and crowd popping moves makes him the antithesis of a good heel.

His match at Wrestlemania 8 was great. But it was before he was seen as a big player. How many people talk about Cena's match at Wrestlemania 20?

Many, considering that's when he FU'd the Big Show.

In 96, they were sticking him with lousy people to wreslte in my opinion. Except for Vader, he was facing Goldust, Pyscho Sid, Bulldog, Diesel. Besides Bulldog how many people had talent from that list. However, Shawn's match with Mankind is amazing.

Vader, Dustin Rhodes, and Bulldog were all TREMENDOUSLY talented wrestlers. Sid is underrated, and Diesel was in his prime.

He had plenty of people to have solid programs with.

His second reign I believe one of his first matches was against Ken Shamrock. But he had a great Casket Match with the Undertaker.

The casket match is not really that good. I don't understand why people constantly praise the match.

Actually, he's only loved by fans who think they know more about wrestling than they actually do.

Actually, he's loved by all types of fans. Except Internet fans.

So, I stick by my original statement.

Real wrestling fans

see through the fact his matches are predominately all the same.

Yes, except that they are completely different.

That his wrestling skill didn't warrant the amount of time as champion, if a championship run at all. He isn't the worst wrestler of all time, but there are a hell of a lot better ones around today.

I wonder whether you even understand what makes a good wrestler.

So many people care about his matches, because they wanted to see him actually get beaten when he deserved it!

They why did people care about his matches with Umaga? Did Umaga deserve it? Why did they care about his matches against The Great Khali? Did Khali deserve it? Why did they care about his match against Lashley? Did Lashley deserve it?

His main fan base is women and young children, that much I could tell from a live event I went to.

So was Shawn Michaels's fan base back in the mid 90s. What's your point?

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Approximately the same I would say.

But wasn't your original debate that John Cena's Raw Debut in St. Louis, the biggest pop you've heard, & bigger than anything Shawn Michaels has had? (before his comeback)

If so, doesn't this statement contradict that of what you said before?

Actually, he's loved by all types of fans. Except Internet fans.

Actually, there are many people in this world who aren't "Internet fans" that dispise John Cena because he's "Hogan-ised" the company & his "spot."

Young Children & Women love John Cena, even some older guys like him, but many people cheer & boo for their favorites & they don't exactly have to be considered "Internet fans" because of that. I know several people who aren't Internet based, that simply hate how Cena seems to "fake." (by overcoming all the odds, time in & time out - similar to how Hogan did it, in the early 90's)

They why did people care about his matches with Umaga? Did Umaga deserve it? Why did they care about his matches against The Great Khali? Did Khali deserve it? Why did they care about his match against Lashley? Did Lashley deserve it?

People would classically want to see him overcome the likes of Umaga, or The Great Khali because of any number of reasons.. but more so, because they were heel.

I know millions of people, all across the world wanted to see Shawn Michaels (face/tweener) go into Wrestlemania 23 & uncrown Cena. Shawn Michaels, deserved it.. but because he's no longer in his prime, he allowed Cena to showcase over it. Shawn Michaels did what was right for the company, but that doesn't mean that Cena didn't deserve to lose.

Bobby Lashley could've easily defeated Cena, & the worst thing they could've did was that segment on Raw, where Lashley speared Cena. W.W.E. is so afraid of people booing the face, that when they matched Lashley & Cena up, as face v. face, they didn't want their top baby face (Cena) to get out cheered, by a glorified midcard main eventer.

 

[Slyfox696]

But wasn't your original debate that John Cena's Raw Debut in St. Louis, the biggest pop you've heard, & bigger than anything Shawn Michaels has had? (before his comeback)

If so, doesn't this statement contradict that of what you said before?

It wasn't the biggest pop I've heard, and yes I said it was bigger than any HBK. And, I still believe it was bigger than WM12 or any other moment in HBK, excluding comeback pops.

However, it probably is too close to be able to definitively say, so it's not worth going into as there is no way to really gauge it. I still believe that Cena's was bigger.

Actually, there are many people in this world who aren't "Internet fans" that dispise John Cena because he's "Hogan-ised" the company & his "spot."

Hogan was the most popular wrestler ever. If Cena is "Hogan-ised" then wouldn't that mean that most people would like him?

Young Children & Women love John Cena, even some older guys like him, but many people cheer & boo for their favorites & they don't exactly have to be considered "Internet fans" because of that. I know several people who aren't Internet based, that simply hate how Cena seems to "fake." (by overcoming all the odds, time in & time out - similar to how Hogan did it, in the early 90's)

I would argue that most people who dislike Cena range from 15-25. People always talk about who loves John Cena, but everyone seems to gloss over the fact that there seems to be basically one demographic that dislikes Cena.

Which just happens to coincide with the general demographic of today's IWC.

People would classically want to see him overcome the likes of Umaga, or The Great Khali because of any number of reasons.. but more so, because they were heel.

I know millions of people, all across the world wanted to see Shawn Michaels (face/tweener) go into Wrestlemania 23 & uncrown Cena. Shawn Michaels, deserved it.. but because he's no longer in his prime, he allowed Cena to showcase over it. Shawn Michaels did what was right for the company, but that doesn't mean that Cena didn't deserve to lose.

Bobby Lashley could've easily defeated Cena, & the worst thing they could've did was that segment on Raw, where Lashley speared Cena. W.W.E. is so afraid of people booing the face, that when they matched Lashley & Cena up, as face v. face, they didn't want their top baby face (Cena) to get out cheered, by a glorified midcard main eventer.

The point was that people care about a Cena match, no matter who he is against, whether it be Angle, HHH, RVD, Edge, Umaga, HBK, Khali, Lashley, Orton...the list goes on and on.

People cared about his matches. He wrestled faces, heels, tweeners. He wrestled legends and newcomers. He wrestled smark favorites and smark hated wrestlers. He's faced big guys and little guys, brawlers and technical wrestlers.

John Cena has wrestled ALL types of wrestlers, and fans have ALWAYS cared about his matches. To try and say that people only cared for this reason in this instance, or that reason in that instance is missing the boat. The real explanation is much easier.

People care about John Cena matches, but John Cena makes them care about his matches. Which is the mark of a truly great professional wrestler.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

It wasn't the biggest pop I've heard, and yes I said it was bigger than any HBK. And, I still believe it was bigger than WM12 or any other moment in HBK, excluding comeback pops.

However, it probably is too close to be able to definitively say, so it's not worth going into as there is no way to really gauge it. I still believe that Cena's was bigger.

Would you say that Cena's Raw debut, was an even bigger pop than his Wrestlemania 21 Championship win, over J.B.L. to become (for the first time) a World champion?

And its not exactly easy to gauge any one number of fan response because each city & town is different. Each arena could echo sounds differently, & also, you can't discount the fact that W.W.E. has the shear ability to manipulate sound through air-waves. Whos to say they didn't "pump up the volume" on Cena's debut?! Or on any Shawn Michaels pop, for that matter.

That this for exactly.. No Mercy, 2001, The Rock was BOOED out of the building, I was there.. I seen the shit happen. Yet when I returned home to watch the p.p.v. on tape, hardly ANY boos could be heard.. & random "Rocky" chants were filtered in! Therefore, it (to me, especially because of that) is a known fact that W.W.E. has manipulated the sounds you hear through television.

Hogan was the most popular wrestler ever. If Cena is "Hogan-ised" then wouldn't that mean that most people would like him?

Just because Hulk Hogan was one of the most popular wrestlers, doesn't mean that over a course of time people didn't begin to get bored of him, or feel that he became stale.

Thats what was happening with John Cena, I'd say since Unforgiven of 2006, when he beat Edge. (The Toronto crowd not included) The general feeling is that Cena is only in the main spot, because the highest "demographic" is children & oddly enough, women.. both of whom attract to Cena more than any other.

But you ask any child or female about whether they feel Cena is the same in every match, & they'd be blantantly lying if they said no. Every wrestler does the same sets of moves.. but when was the last time Cena ever stepped outside of that?! One Night Stand, 2006. (in my opinion)

The point was that people care about a Cena match, no matter who he is against, whether it be Angle, HHH, RVD, Edge, Umaga, HBK, Khali, Lashley, Orton...the list goes on and on.

Define care? As in, people love to WANT to see Cena overcome the odds, or lose? But look who he's matched up with. People only care for Cena to "overcome odds" when he's facing the likes of Khali, or Orton.. because honestly noone feels either of those two deserve the Main Event spot.

But when you look at Cena v. Angle, H.H.H., H.B.K., or even Edge.. people get upset when he wins, because they feel any one of the others would be much greater for the spot Cena was currently taking.

People care about John Cena matches, but John Cena makes them care about his matches. Which is the mark of a truly great professional wrestler.

I'll admit he has the ability to attract heat & pop at the same time, & that in itself is unheard of, from anyone else.. but the thing is.. he isn't suppose to be attracting heat.. therefore, he's not doing HIS job.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Approximately the same I would say.

That was his retirement comeback nostalgia.

And, Angle was not a great heel. His constant need to throw in high spots, playing to the crowd, and crowd popping moves makes him the antithesis of a good heel.

Vader, Dustin Rhodes, and Bulldog were all TREMENDOUSLY talented wrestlers. Sid is underrated, and Diesel was in his prime.

The casket match is not really that good. I don't understand why people constantly praise the match.

I don't see Cena's pop being bigger than his championship win. I was there that night in Anaheim and it was huge.

Yes but still your statement was that his debut pop was larger than anything of Shawn Michaels. Even though he was still fresh out of retirement the pop he got when he won was huge.

Angle was an amazing heel to me. Absolutely great. Who didn't love him mocking the beer truck. i agree a little bit with the fact that he tends to throw in a lot of high spots.

Oh. I meant to say ader as well because he is damn good. Rhodes I think is decent at best. Sid is terrible and is way too stiff in the ring. Diesel has about six moves in his repertoire. And there No Holds Barred match wasn't that great considering they couldn't use the weapons on each other I believe.

The match was great because it was the first truly violent Casket Match. You had the nice piledriver on the steps, the Tombstone off of the apron into the casket, Shawn diving into the casket, Kane turning on his brother, lighting the casket on fire, etc.

 

[Slyfox696]

Would you say that Cena's Raw debut, was an even bigger pop than his Wrestlemania 21 Championship win, over J.B.L. to become (for the first time) a World champion?

Hmm...I don't know.

Just because Hulk Hogan was one of the most popular wrestlers, doesn't mean that over a course of time people didn't begin to get bored of him, or feel that he became stale.

Did you not hear his pop at Wrestlemania 21. Hogan is still loved by fans.

Thats what was happening with John Cena, I'd say since Unforgiven of 2006, when he beat Edge. (The Toronto crowd not included) The general feeling is that Cena is only in the main spot, because the highest "demographic" is children & oddly enough, women.. both of whom attract to Cena more than any other.

That's what people said of HBK back in 1996. What's your point?

But you ask any child or female about whether they feel Cena is the same in every match, & they'd be blantantly lying if they said no. Every wrestler does the same sets of moves.. but when was the last time Cena ever stepped outside of that?! One Night Stand, 2006. (in my opinion)

Bull. Are you going to try and tell me that his match with Lashley and his match with HBK on Raw were anything alike? Or that his match with Umaga was like his match Edge at Unforgiven? Or that his match at ONS was like his match with Orton at Summerslam?

These were all completely different matches. This notion that Cena does the same thing comes because most people only watch his Raw matches, where Cena does the same face routine as everyone else in the company on free TV. Watch his PPV matches, and look at the difference.

Define care? As in, people love to WANT to see Cena overcome the odds, or lose? But look who he's matched up with. People only care for Cena to "overcome odds" when he's facing the likes of Khali, or Orton.. because honestly noone feels either of those two deserve the Main Event spot.

Whether you want him to lose, or want him to win, you want him to do SOMETHING. Compare that to Charlie Haas, who fans don't give a rat's ass about, no matter what he does.

But when you look at Cena v. Angle, H.H.H., H.B.K., or even Edge.. people get upset when he wins, because they feel any one of the others would be much greater for the spot Cena was currently taking.

All of those guys had their chance. And none of them capitalized on it, with the exception of HHH.

I'll admit he has the ability to attract heat & pop at the same time, & that in itself is unheard of, from anyone else.. but the thing is.. he isn't suppose to be attracting heat.. therefore, he's not doing HIS job.

His job is to bring fans to the shows, and make those fans pay money. He did that better than any other wrestler so he IS doing his job, and doing it better than anyone else.

Yes but still your statement was that his debut pop was larger than anything of Shawn Michaels. Even though he was still fresh out of retirement the pop he got when he won was huge.

Actually my original statement was this...

Cena's crowd reaction when he showed up on Raw is greater than anything Shawn Michaels has done outside of one of his numerous post-retirement comebacks.

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showpost.php?p=300653&postcount=308

Angle was an amazing heel to me. Absolutely great. Who didn't love him mocking the beer truck. i agree a little bit with the fact that he tends to throw in a lot of high spots.

Angle isn't supposed to be making you love him and cheer him. He's supposed to make you love and cheer Cena.

Oh. I meant to say ader as well because he is damn good. Rhodes I think is decent at best. Sid is terrible and is way too stiff in the ring. Diesel has about six moves in his repertoire. And there No Holds Barred match wasn't that great considering they couldn't use the weapons on each other I believe.

Dustin Rhodes is a VERY good wrestler. How is Sid terrible, when his matches consistently receive great reaction from the crowd? Same goes for Diesel.

 

[hbk&triple h]

Bull. Are you going to try and tell me that his match with Lashley and his match with HBK on Raw were anything alike? Or that his match with Umaga was like his match Edge at Unforgiven? Or that his match at ONS was like his match with Orton at Summerslam?

Angle isn't supposed to be making you love him and cheer him. He's supposed to make you love and cheer Cena.

Dustin Rhodes is a VERY good wrestler. How is Sid terrible, when his matches consistently receive great reaction from the crowd? Same goes for Diesel.

No they aren't alike. But look at the huge differences between the wrestlers he is facing. None of them have the same style. Umaga and RVD are completely different as is Orton and Edge.

Angle isn't making you love him. I loved the mocking. The crowd must have hated him for doing it considering Austin was super over with the fans. And he played a great heel against Cena. Most of his opponents did. All of them were hated by the crowd until it came time till the actual match and the crowd hated Cena. Angle was hated and then when it came time for him to face Cena everybody was against Cena. That shows how many people wanted the belt off of him. And Angle did not do huge spots in his matches with Cena.

I honestly do not think Rhodes was that great. I think he did an outstanding job of playing his roll. While the crowd is a huge oart of a match that does not mean the match was good or not.

Example:Wrestlemania 20. The Goldberg/Lesnar match. The crowd was hot but the match was terrible. Proving that a crowd does not decide if a match is good or not.

Sid might have had a good crowd but name 10 really good matches of his.

 

[AnthonyMango/NoFate007]

Though this debate is going to continue no matter what, all I have to say is to look at the poll. Shawn Michaels wouldn't be winning with such an amazing margin if there was that much of a debate. Nitpicking little details such as a few random pops here and there is far too circumstantial (WWE editing, the particular crowd that night, the previous time they've seen them, etc). The IWC is different than the non-involved fans, but that doesn't separate them. In fact, those are the true fans if you think about it, because the fans that get really worked up about things and can support their positions with more knowledge about the business than the "average fan" are generally those people that will be buying your ppvs, voting online for Cyber Sunday, etc. Merchandise you can sell anywhere and reach the children that have no sizable point of view, so although its a good way to judge whether or not someone is POPULAR, it isn't the best way to judge if someone is BETTER. If you could poll every fan of the WWE, I'd say that chances are people would say that Michaels is the better performer, Michaels is more impressive superstar career-wise, but at the moment, Cena is more popular in an overall sense. This thread, however, is based on who is a better wrestler, not "who would sell the most money".

 

[jamesjd66]

This is a ridiculous thread and I wish the poll showed who voted for who.

Cena can't lace Michaels' boots (in terms of wrestling). The matches HBK puts on are always good no matter who the opponent is::Cena's matches are good if HBK is in them.lol

Michaels can chain wrestle well, and in his heyday was a great high flier as well. Not to bring up Cena's "5 moves of DOOM" but it's true. Lets face it, even though towards the end of Michaels matches he has the same routine week end week out, the first half of Shawn's matches are filled with other moves like submissions, backdrops, etc; Nothing like Cena's punch, punch, closeline, shoulder block, clothesline, >repeat<.FU
Lets not also forget Cena's 'no sell' to HBK working his leg for 20 friggin minutes. Thats a mistake I've never seen HBK make.

 

[toddyarbroughjr]

It's not fair to put a veteran like Micheals up against a semi-newby like Cena. The only way you could compare the two is to wait until they are both at legendary status, and compare who was the better of the two overall. Of course at this time Micheals will take the votes hands down, but give Cena another ten years and look back. Now it could be a different story.