Who's The Better Wrestler?

[BRandonkin]

Hart, Benoit, Austin, Hogan and Taker are the only ones I think eclispe Michaels. And Warrior and Foley and Andre, Give me a break. No one consistenly puts on top tier matches like HBK. I think Hart, Benoit, Flair, Steamboat have an art to wrestling matches. Being over and popular with the fans does not equate wrestling greatness.

 

[tb93]

Bret Hart, Benoit, Mysterio, Guerrero, Jericho, Austin, Rock, HHH and Hogan have all outdone HBK going back to 1997.

Hogan, Savage, Flair, Andre, Bruno, Sting, Warrior, Austin, Rock, Steamboat, Liger, Foley, Funk....I would put every one of them clearly ahead of HBK, with only Sting being the possible exception (and that's coming from a HUGE Sting fan).

Its weird i didnt take you as a foley fan. Anyway i still think that shawn is 10x better than cena, but cenas catching up. All he needs is to be able to actually wrestle. His matches in his heel run were really great.

 

[Slyfox696]

Hart, Benoit, Austin, Hogan and Taker are the only ones I think eclispe Michaels. And Warrior and Foley and Andre, Give me a break. No one consistenly puts on top tier matches like HBK. I think Hart, Benoit, Flair, Steamboat have an art to wrestling matches. Being over and popular with the fans does not equate wrestling greatness.

Please. Andre the Giant puts HBK to shame in terms of greatness. Foley and HBK is probably close to a wash.

As for Warrior? Let's put it this way. When Hulk Hogan in his prime is jobbing to you, you know you are doing something right. I stand by what I said.

Its weird i didnt take you as a foley fan. Anyway i still think that shawn is 10x better than cena, but cenas catching up. All he needs is to be able to actually wrestle. His matches in his heel run were really great.

I'm not really a Foley fan, but the man was good. Damn good.

And, when you say "able to actually wrestle", do explain.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

OK, Slyfox is picking on newbies. Time to interject.

Andre the Giant? Yes, he was great because of his size. But the man was pure, unadulterated boredom on two tree-trunk legs. He could barely move around in the ring. He fell asleep during a match. He had less moves in his moveset that Cena or The Rock. In fact, he had a moveset on par with Khali.

Don't get me wrong. Andre told a story of "the unstoppable mammoth who could not be defeated by normal men" very well. But how much of a stretch was that? How much of that story needed telling?

Vince loved him because he was a freakshow. Shawn Michaels is a far better wrestler and a far better entertainer than Andre, for one because he could do things Andre wasn't capable of. Like jump, run, and climb to the second rope.

Foley and HBK a wash? I'd want to think about that one before debating it.

 

[Slyfox696]

OK, Slyfox is picking on newbies. Time to interject.

Andre the Giant? Yes, he was great because of his size. But the man was pure, unadulterated boredom on two tree-trunk legs. He could barely move around in the ring. He fell asleep during a match. He had less moves in his moveset that Cena or The Rock. In fact, he had a moveset on par with Khali.

Don't get me wrong. Andre told a story of "the unstoppable mammoth who could not be defeated by normal men" very well. But how much of a stretch was that? How much of that story needed telling?

Vince loved him because he was a freakshow. Shawn Michaels is a far better wrestler and a far better entertainer than Andre, for one because he could do things Andre wasn't capable of. Like jump, run, and climb to the second rope.

Foley and HBK a wash? I'd want to think about that one before debating it.

You should try watching Andre back before he wore the over-the-shoulder strap and was heel. Buy yourself the Andre the Giant DVD. It's only like 10 dollars, and while it is not near the caliber of other DVDs in terms of production, it definitely shows an Andre the Giant you obviously have not seen. Also, Youtube some matches from Japan.

The man was MUCH more talented than you are giving him credit for. If he was pure boredom, how come he was selling out shows for years? You think he was the only wrestler who was tall? Seriously, try watching some Andre before Wrestlemania 3. Before his knees and back were shot and he was in constant agony. The man is fun to watch, and some of the stuff he did in the ring was pure genius. He did moves back then you don't even see today. He was very innovative.

In conclusion, just watch some Andre the Giant back during his prime.

 

[tb93]

Please. Andre the Giant puts HBK to shame in terms of greatness. Foley and HBK is probably close to a wash.

As for Warrior? Let's put it this way. When Hulk Hogan in his prime is jobbing to you, you know you are doing something right. I stand by what I said.


I'm not really a Foley fan, but the man was good. Damn good.

And, when you say "able to actually wrestle", do explain.

Basically i dont want to see the five knuckle shuffle or the f-u anymore. Yes there wrestling moves but they just dont work for me. Yes i know it gets a pop from the audience. This is why i want him heel SO BAD! I want to see wrestling manuvers. I dont want to waste my time watching a glorifed fist drop, that never connects(seriously he always clearly misses the head) all this stuff has become extremely repetitive. Watch his match with danielson and youll know what i mean by real wrestling. Hell i wouldnt mind if he goes back to using the quick protoplex. Or if he did the throwback off the top, now that would be sick.

 

[Milto]

While John Cena is a great athlete and is starting to become a better wrestler than he was in the beginning, he still does not compare to the Heartbreak Kid.
I was a little annoyed when HBK and Cena were wrestling as HBK became another one on a long list of Cena's wins but HBK would have been the perfect person to stop that run.
It's weird that HBK has only been the champ 4 times in his career. When you think of guys like Batista or Edge who are also very good being champ as many times as HBK, when HBK has been around longer than anyone and still puts everything on the line, I feel he's been a bit hard done by.
But definitely HBK oveer Cena.

 

[Slyfox696]

Basically i dont want to see the five knuckle shuffle or the f-u anymore. Yes there wrestling moves but they just dont work for me. Yes i know it gets a pop from the audience. This is why i want him heel SO BAD! I want to see wrestling manuvers. I dont want to waste my time watching a glorifed fist drop, that never connects(seriously he always clearly misses the head) all this stuff has become extremely repetitive. Watch his match with danielson and youll know what i mean by real wrestling. Hell i wouldnt mind if he goes back to using the quick protoplex. Or if he did the throwback off the top, now that would be sick.

So, you think "real wrestling" is just stringing together a bunch of random moves that have little to do with any kind of psychology or storytelling, and have absolutely no regard to realism what so ever?

I see.


I'll tell you what. You try to put a Cattle Mutiliation on me, and I'll try to drop my fist in your face, and let's see who gets farther. God, this whole "real wrestling" garbage is ridiculous. Does anybody understand what professional wrestling is REALLY about?

Hey, if you want to see a bunch of cool looking moves, buy a wrestling training video. If you want to see wrestling at it's finest, watch someone who can sell a match, tell a good story in the ring, use good psychology, and be able to work a crowd into believing the match is real, and having viewers on the edge of their seat, through use of their storytelling. Because THAT'S what professional wrestling is about. If it wasn't, there'd be a whole lot more wrestling training DVDs flying off the shelves.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

The man was MUCH more talented than you are giving him credit for. If he was pure boredom, how come he was selling out shows for years? You think he was the only wrestler who was tall? Seriously, try watching some Andre before Wrestlemania 3. Before his knees and back were shot and he was in constant agony. The man is fun to watch, and some of the stuff he did in the ring was pure genius. He did moves back then you don't even see today. He was very innovative.
In conclusion, just watch some Andre the Giant back during his prime.

Perhaps I do need to go back a little further for some old-school Andre, but you and I both know it was a lot easier to get over despite being fairly one-dimensional in the 70's and 80's than in the 90's and 00's. Andre got over, my dear Sly, not because his matches had people enthralled or on the edge of their seats, but because they were in awe of the sheer size of the man. It's like the idiots who go to the "State Fair" and shell out $.50 to see the tiny horse or the bearded lady. It's also why we have rubbernecking delays every damn day in Jersey. Because people want to see something totally out of the ordinary, and Andre was that because of his size.

To be fair, Sly, I will try to watch some of his old matches. Otherwise, you're right, I'd be going off of the debilitated man from WM3 and on.

Also, to be fair, we should create an Andre - Overrated? thread because this thread is supposed to be Cena vs HBK. I goaded you into this off topic discussion, so that's my bad.

 

[Slyfox696]

Perhaps I do need to go back a little further for some old-school Andre, but you and I both know it was a lot easier to get over despite being fairly one-dimensional in the 70's and 80's than in the 90's and 00's.

Bull. That is nothing more than a cop-out. Why was it easier? Because you think it was?

Andre got over, my dear Sly, not because his matches had people enthralled or on the edge of their seats, but because they were in awe of the sheer size of the man.

Wrong again.

Andre was over because the man oozed charisma. Everywhere he went, people wanted to be near him, wanted to talk to him. He wasn't a sideshow freak, he was a charismatic professional wrestler, a guy that everyone wanted to meet. And some of the stuff he did in the ring was much more entertaining than some of the garbage we are subjected to these days.

It's like the idiots who go to the "State Fair" and shell out $.50 to see the tiny horse or the bearded lady. It's also why we have rubbernecking delays every damn day in Jersey. Because people want to see something totally out of the ordinary, and Andre was that because of his size.

Yes, because Andre was the only 7 foot person in the entire world.

To be fair, Sly, I will try to watch some of his old matches. Otherwise, you're right, I'd be going off of the debilitated man from WM3 and on.

You need to. Pick up the Andre DVD. Like I said, it's not a good DVD in terms of match selection or production, but it does show you a side of Andre you clearly have not seen. Look up some stuff in Japan as well. There's a decent match on Youtube or Dailymotion, where Hogan and Andre team up against Inoki and...someone. Pretty rare video, but kind of chilling to think all these guys were in the same ring at the same time.

Also, to be fair, we should create an Andre - Overrated? thread because this thread is supposed to be Cena vs HBK. I goaded you into this off topic discussion, so that's my bad.

I would think the thread would better be named "Andre - Underrated" if you ask me. Because most people think of the bad back, bad knees overgrown Andre, not the athletic Andre who would climb the second rope, deliver dropkicks, do a row with three guys etc.


To tie it to HBK, people are trying to claim that HBK is better than Cena, because HBK is one of the Top 5 All-Time. My point is that HBK is no where close, and thus brings this closer back to discussion with Cena. Make sense?

 

[kabby420]

i actually had to think about this one and well cena is clearly the next generation style of wrestling, he's intense... no matter what anyone says he's intense. and i agree that the 5 knuckle shuffle is ******ed and teh FU was only good when he was feuding lesner. but i mean hbk is old school, he does the same moves he's always done... the only difference is sometimes the elbow drop gave him the win, or a sharpshooter. so i mean every great wwe performer was repetitive and did certain things to please the audience it's what they are told to do.. i mean c'mon look at hogan, so your prayers and eat your vitamins.... and the part he left out was take your roids and scam the entire public with your image. it all just depends on what generation we are a part of. i was watching wrestling in the early eighties as a kid and lookin back on what i was a fan of back then was ******ed.

cena is better simply because he is the younger generations main guy because he does his 5 knuckle shuffle and fU and still has intensity and moves that make ya go wow for teh older people....
HBK not so much like i said it's kinda liek watching an early ninties re run of monday night raw is war

 

[salopstick]

i dont like cena as is personality in the ring always seems forced. i dont like the way he is shoved down my throat week after week however
i quite like the 5 knuckle shuffle which is not that different from the peoples elbow. if cena could tweak his 5 moves so you never knew what was coming would make him more entertaining

the best wrestler is the wrestler who draws the much money and generates the heat (face or heel) from the audience. at this moment in time it is cena.

over a career though his body of work will never come close to that of hbk

 

[bigshot316]

cena is better simply because he is the younger generations main guy because he does his 5 knuckle shuffle and fU and still has intensity and moves that make ya go wow for teh older people....
HBK not so much like i said it's kinda liek watching an early ninties re run of monday night raw is war

Oh come ON!!
I am a massive HBK fan, and have been since the day he threw Marty Jannetty through that barbershop window.
Everything about Michaels was amazing. He was one of the best bumpers ever! I used to love watching cocky heel Shawn get chucked around a ring, he made it look so real and exciting.
Secondly, he had a good all round package; his aeriel skills, technical skills and even on occasion simple brawling technique all added to the complete package. On top of that, throw in one of the most entertaining characters ever (and i'm not talking about slightly gay, face hbk with Jose Lothario here!) and I just don't see what there is to doubt.
Granted, he has lost his edge since he 'found God' and all that crap, but even now he has proven time and again that he can put together an exciting, tense match, can still get beaten up better than anybody, still cuts a damn mean promo and is just alround !
Now I used to be in the I hate Cena gang, but I will admit that over the last year, I have developed a guilty secret where I started to quite enjoy watching him. I even like his promos. In fact I find him funny and charismatic!
So Cena is O.K in my book, but I think he would be a better heel. Mind you I say that about everybody!!!

I don't think that you can answer the question of who the best wrestler of all time is as everybody will have a different opinion of what this means and who it is.
Basically, if somebody has entertained you, through their ringwork and through their mic work then what does it matter?

I would throw all these names in the 'best ever wrestlers' category, all for different reasons;
Michaels, HHH, Cena, Foley, Rocky, Stone Cold, Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Jericho, Pillman, Raven, Benoit, Angle, AJ Styles, Jushin Liger, Eddie Guerrero, and I'm sure if I sat here a while I'd think of a hundred more!
I just love wrestlin!!!

 

[kabby420]

aiight i can agree with you that HBK is fun to watch get thrown around. he does it well and it always looks like he just injured himself... so on that level i can agree with you.... HBK is a great talent and he always will be, i just don't think he has the same sting, and the same attitude he had when he was great.

 

[UmagaFan2100]

Erm... I'm not sure if I can keep my rage out of the equation on this one, but I'm going for HBK on this one. Cena is injured, not even wrestling right now, but Michaels is active and still gunnin' for the WWE title, even though (because of his Survivor Series loss to current WWE champ Randy Orton) he can't go for the WWE title again 'till after Orton loses the title to someone. That, and I'm pissed that he doesn't have the title already, due to some cheap shots by Orton the past few times they've gone in the ring together.

 

[BIG FAT AL]

Micheals for one simple fact.He got over by being good at wrestling.Cena got over by lifting 500 Pounds of Flubber onto his shoulders and FUing it.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Them two aren't even in the same category. Please, Shawn Michaels and John Cena?
Shawn Michaels is The showstopper. He puts a show on every night, and has been doing so since he started. He is one of the best, if not the best, wrestler of all time. He has an outstanding amount of talent,and I challenge any other wrestler to come back from the back injury he had and still be better than the rest.
John Cena's only fans are 5 year old kids and women who only watch wrestling for the mens bodies (I hate people like that). Yeah, he has great mic skills, makes good promos. But, at the end of the day he has limited wrestling talent. With Cena you get the same thing week in and week out. He bores me.

 

[Gabes]

Been watching WWF/WWE since brett the hitman heart started and i can tell you cena is no where close to the heartbreakkid. Cena, Orton, and batista are being shoved down the throats of fans cuz WWF is just realizing their biggest stars from the attitude era are about done. thank god for Y2J because wwe is running out of people who can talk. Really wish they would do more with triple h

 

[TooXtremeT]

WHY IS THIS EVEN A QUESTION?! I will tell you how you can tell who is better....put Cena in a 60 minute Iron Man Match with the top guy of the decade and say "not only do you have to hold you own, but you have to compete with him at his own game" HBK went move for damn move with Bret in a lot of that match and it was a classic....Cena would've lost the crowd in ten minutes....Cena does not deserve to be in the same breath as HBK.

 

[Slyfox696]

WHY IS THIS EVEN A QUESTION?! I will tell you how you can tell who is better....put Cena in a 60 minute Iron Man Match with the top guy of the decade and say "not only do you have to hold you own, but you have to compete with him at his own game" HBK went move for damn move with Bret in a lot of that match and it was a classic....Cena would've lost the crowd in ten minutes....Cena does not deserve to be in the same breath as HBK.

Hahaha.

You must have missed that match on Raw between Cena and HBK. When Cena went toe to toe with HBK for 40-50 minutes, and actually out-performed HBK.

At NO point has Cena ever been in a match where the crowd was not hot.

 

[Skillz]

Bret Hart, Benoit, Mysterio, Guerrero, Jericho, Austin, Rock, HHH and Hogan have all outdone HBK going back to 1997.

Hogan, Savage, Flair, Andre, Bruno, Sting, Warrior, Austin, Rock, Steamboat, Liger, Foley, Funk....I would put every one of them clearly ahead of HBK, with only Sting being the possible exception (and that's coming from a HUGE Sting fan).

Slyfox, could you go into detail on why you think HBK isn't as great as he is made out to be? And why he isn't as good as all of those guys you mentioned? I'm a fan of HBK, however I do think that he is slightly overrated by the IWC.

As for who's the better wrestler out of Cena and HBK... If you're talking about who's better right now, it's a close call but I'll go with Cena. If you're talking about who's been better throughout their respective careers, then obviously it's HBK. In 10 years however, when HBK is retired (hopefully he won't do a "Flair"), and Cena's best years are behind him (like HBK's are now), and this same question is asked again, I think that Cena will be the one who's had an overall greater career.

 

[BRandonkin]

I doubt it. Michaels has five star classics left and right. Michaels was not forced down everyones throat like Cena. Michaels never had this much hate love relationship with fans. Michaels athleticism and resourcefulness is far beter than Cenas. at Cena age currently, Michaels had 2 five star matches to his credit. cena has not even had one, or he might with Michaels which wouldn't say much for cena. Michael has been in match of the year over and over again. Cena is the most popular yet not the favorite match of the year, I just think HBK is the one that stand out for all he can do. At 42 he still puts on better matches than Cena and that saying something.

 

[Rusty]

I like both of these guys, they are both outstanding performers. HBK is 1 of the best and still puts on classic matches for a guy his age. I would rather see a HBK match than a HHH match anyday.

However, even though Cena is currently my fav wrestler, how can u pplz honestly say he isnt good. He had to main event PPV after PPV for almost year straight. None of his main event ppv matches were crap, hell even Cena vs Khali matches were passable IMO.

Cena vs Edge matches were great, Cena vs Umaga matches were good, Cena vs HBK matches were great, Cena vs Lashley was pretty good, Cena vs Orton @ Summerslam was pretty good 2, and Im not sayin Cena vs Orton @ Unforgiven as that wasnt the Main event.

Also before he was injured 9/10 times he would wrestle on Raw every week. Batista hardly ever wrestles on SD even though he should coz he is World Champ.

During his time being a WWE wrestler, he even starred in a movie and made his own CD. Now if I had to say who would be my hero out of HBK and Cena, I would definately say Cena. He is great in and out of the ring, and how can Cena be carried through every match if he constantly never fails to disappoint and always gives 100% during his matches. Remember it takes 2 wrestlers to put on a great match not just 1.

 

[Shocky]

I wouldn't say Michaels wasn't forced down people's throats. Watch Shawn Michaels from 1996 and John Cena from 2006, and there are more similarities there then differences. For the most part, you're dealing with two guys that were over as heels, because the characters were custom made to be heel. They make face turns with some elements of their heelish character remaining at first, and people begin to resent that.

The best thing I've read, especially concerning John Cena and Shawn Michaels, is that they simply are too good looking for their own good. The WWE fans, especially males, resented both of them as faces and as the man, therefore the backlash.

Now after watching the Michaels DVD, even John Cena himself admits that Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time. He admits that if you don't bring your "A" game, Michaels will make you pay in the ring, which is a big hint that Cena himself admits he didn't have the best Wrestlemania match possible. But, that being said, Cena/Michaels II was a clinic, and shows that Cena is very, very receptive and is a quick learner.

Personally, this is no contest. Michaels matches are legendary and so much better then Cena's, but you also have to remember with Cena, he's young. He's already had the title for over two years, and he's only 30. That's how old HBK was when he won his first world title.

Cena has potential to be a great performer. He might not ever be the greatest on a technical level, but that's just something people are going to have to get used to. Cena is here for a long time, so you either get used to it, or flip the channel.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

At NO point has Cena ever been in a match where the crowd was not hot.

I know this will likely spark you, but to a point.. that statement is.. wrong. John Cena had a down period, at the very beginning of this career, when he didn't have any type of "identity."

When he broke in, he was basically known as "the guy under Taker's wing." That was his gimmick. And he had literally, next to, if NONE at all.. reaction from the crowd. John Cena was then booked with Bull Buchanon, later renamed "B-2." And the crowd slightly boo'd him, but nothing major.. in fact, it wasn't until he started talking more on the mic. & putting great raps (if ever a rap could be considered great. lol) together, that the fans started to react to him.

Furthermore, for myself at any rate.. I never even fully took notice about John Cena even exsisting, until his feud with Brock Lesnar, when he named the "F-U" specifically for Lesnar.