Who is REALLY better?? Bret Hart Vs HBK

[agentmichaelscarn]

I don't think she said that Shawn could do a move better than Bret she said he could do anything that Bret could, and that's true he could. That's not to say Shawn was a better wrestler than Bret but he could do any move Bret could do just as good.

Name one actual move that Shawn couldn't do just as good as Bret could. This thread shouldn't be about who was the better in ring preformer because as far as I'm concered they are eqauls in that regard.


So while Bret may be on a high and mighty horse he was in the wrong too.

Sure he might have been able to do every move but that doesnt mean anything unless you can execute it as well which he couldnt. Everyone of Bret Harts moves looked so crisp and real particularly his back breakers and suplexes, nobody could deliver a better backbreaker then him, nobody. Shawn's selling and psychology or storytelling isnt in Bret's league either. Bret Hart sold better then anybody I can ever remember seeing. Bret is also a guy that Vince McMahon himself called the greatest storyteller of all time. Bret is a guy that Vince said (paraphrasing) "Could have a match with a broomstick and make it look good". And this is Vince a guy that has been around wrestling more than anybody and a guy that isnt exactly Bret's best friend. So for him to say that shows just how good Hart was.

Now I will admit that Shawn does things that Bret couldnt do namely aerial moves. Bret didnt have that in his arsenal like Shawn does and I will say that Shawn was more charasmatic and flamboyant then Bret. And Im not a Hart fan that is going to knock HBK and downplay everything he does because he is a great worker and a hell of an athlete but I just dont think he is as good as Hart when you put it all together and there is nothing that can change my mind. Just like Im sure there is nothing that could change a pro-HBK's mind about Bret.

 

[Emmet]

What makes Hart so much better than Shawn? I fail to see the huge difference you seem to be insinuating.



I agree with your opening statement. Hell I'm the biggest Shawn fan I've ever spoke to and even I won't try and say he was more professional than Hart. He wasn't, and trying to say he was is stupid. Hart had his moments, but Shawn did some damage to his career in the earlier years people will never forgive him for.

And your statement of Hogan being a prick is one I agree with, and which answers a lot.



LOL this is what pisses me off the most about Hart fans. The fact that when talking about him, they have to be nothing but disrespectful about Shawn, and bash him. I've said it so may times I'm sick of it. Stop bashing him because of Bret and just watch. You're missing out. There are a long line of people that dislike most wrestlers. But a hell of a lot more that like them.

What makes Bret better than Shawn? His execution of moves, his storytelling, his vision for wrestling matches, his making his opponents look as good as him. Shawn could do the lucha libre style pretty well, but some of his spots were pointless to me. Bret could also sell alot better than Shawn, anytime ive seen HBK sell moves he bounces about the ring and flops around like a fish out of water. You wouldnt do that in a real fight would you?

I dont believe Im missing out on not watching HBK matches. Personally I cannot stand him, ive already seen his best matches (except the one against Foley at Mind Games), and i'd rather watch a Bret match over a Shawn match anyday of the week.

Any chance we could convert you onto the Bret side of the fence HBK-aholic?

 

[HBK-aholic]

What makes Bret better than Shawn? His execution of moves, his storytelling, his vision for wrestling matches, his making his opponents look as good as him. Shawn could do the lucha libre style pretty well, but some of his spots were pointless to me.

Everything you just named, Shawn can do. Shawn is amazing. So is Bret. And they had some great matches together.

Bret could also sell alot better than Shawn, anytime ive seen HBK sell moves he bounces about the ring and flops around like a fish out of water. You wouldnt do that in a real fight would you?

And tell me what out of a wrestling ring you'd see in a real fight?

I dont believe Im missing out on not watching HBK matches. Personally I cannot stand him, ive already seen his best matches (except the one against Foley at Mind Games), and i'd rather watch a Bret match over a Shawn match anyday of the week.

Funny simply because if you weren't such a big Hart fan you wouldn't feel this way.

Any chance we could convert you onto the Bret side of the fence HBK-aholic?

Actually, as you can probably tell from most of my posts, I'm very much in the middle, despite being a huge Shawn fan. I can accept Hart was an amazing wrestler. The 2 really are a lot more similar than you seem to think. Probably another reason they dislike each other. Shawn is one of the best. So is Hart. You really are missing out on a lot.

 

[The Roid Rage]

I maintain that I was pretty damn balanced about the whole thing. I am the one who brought up the professionalism thing and I think you should listen to Vince McMahon on his view of Shawn in that light especially since that's his boss. I think he's a more credible source than any of you and he calls Shawn one of the most professional people he's ever worked with.

I will not deny Bret Harts loyal service to the WWF/E before he had to turn heel, but after that he just became a cry baby bitch and started thinking about nothing but himself and his own interests. You also have to realize that he is the one who caused a problem of any kind with Shawn. He had problems with him before they ever had a match because he just didn't like him. Why? Basically because he was everything Bret wasn't which incidentally went over huge with the fans and he couldn't figure it out.

I take nothing away from either man, They are both two of the greatest performers of all time. I only brought up professionalism because I thought they were so evenly matched up in every other way and that was the one thing that stood out to me. I don't care what anyone says, when you look at the 97 situation Bret blew it. I already explained why in great detail that I say these things and I have pretty water tight arguments, feel free to go back and read them as to further your education on the matter.


It looks like this thing has turned into almost somewhat of a flame war. Everyone want's to argue at each other about who did better moves, or this or that. I said earlier that they complimented each other perfectly. Where one lacked the other excelled and vice versa, they were both great. I think the thing that puts Shawn over the top though is the fact that he still wrestles today at the same level he did before if not damn close, and that's a testament to his entire legacy.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Well, as for Vinne Mac saying HBK is one of the "most professional people" ever... I think that should also be taken with a grain of salt. We all know VKM and WWE like to interpret history the way they like to see it - which is not always necessarily the way it really went down. Some things get played up, others are played down. Of course VKM will say HBK is one of his "most professional" guys; he still is a big active star for WWE, an important asset. Of course you will want to present him in a good light. Bret Hart is, at the end of the day, a thing of the past for VKM. Maybe an important one - but one that was important ten years ago, and not one that still is important now. HBK is almost ten years younger than Bret, he is still active; thus he is the one VKM has to put over; not Hart, who left WWE on not exactly good terms and is not active anymore in the business, nor will ever be again.

But I will let that argument stand, as we do not have first hand proof one way or the other that whatever information we might have gathered from internet reports, DVDs, biographical books etc... is actually accurate and true. Because in all these different media, we usually do not get a sober reporting of facts, but usually a biased view of things from the perspective of either WWE and VKM (in the case of DVDs), or the athletes themselves (in the case of the books), or from more or less reliable "insiders" who are not always accurate on their statements in order to create excitement (in the case of the internet reports etc.). So what remains is simply what we can see, as average fan, on TV. And yes, there we saw Bret Hart act unprofessionally at one point in his career. But we also saw HBK act unprofessionally on several occasions. We saw both men put on great matches, we saw both men perform on very high levels in- and outside the ring. We saw - and this is all arguable - HBK perform slightly better on the mic, we saw Bret Hart perform slightly better inside the ring, in terms of move execution, storytelling.

So I must agree with you in the end - The two are indeed very evenly matched, with a lot of similarities and a lot of differences at the same time. Both need to be regarded as great stars, both deserving of their spots in the Hall Of Fame (which will not take long for HBK anymore these days). But judging from all those things mentioned, I personally still pick Bret Hart over HBK at the end of the day, simply because his style probably was more appealing to me, because I enjoyed the way he performed inside the ring more than I enjoyed HBK's way, because I grew up knowing Bret Hart as the champion and not a few years later HBK. So I guess what it comes down to is really personal preference, as on a purely wrestling-level, both are on a pretty equal level, and you just have to pick your poison as to whose style you personally enjoy more. Objectively, there is not much that sets them apart; so to then base the choice between them alone on the matter of "professionalism", which we will never truly know about as accurately as we can know the things in the ring which we see with our own eyes, I think is a bit out of place, and actually takes away from the great performers that both men undeniably are/were inside the ring. Because this is what this thread is all about: It is about who the better wrestler is; not who the better person.

 

[DC24]

I have been more of a HBK fan but I always thought Bret was better IMHO. To me his championship reigns were better and fought tougher opposition for belts. As far as the screw job I felt what Bret did was perfectly right in whooping Vince's ass. People love to say he did the best for the company for fear of Bret showing up in WCW with the WWF belt. Well if Bret wanted to he could have never shown up Survivor Series and did that if he wanted to his contract was up in WWF he didn't have to show up but he gave his word to drop the belt the next night and Vince pulled that bullshit and paid for it and he's paying for it now to with Karma for trying to bury the people who made the company what it is *ie* Hogan and Savage and company is in its worst shape since when WCW was beating them for 3 years straight.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

I maintain that I was pretty damn balanced about the whole thing. I am the one who brought up the professionalism thing and I think you should listen to Vince McMahon on his view of Shawn in that light especially since that's his boss. I think he's a more credible source than any of you and he calls Shawn one of the most professional people he's ever worked with.

I will not deny Bret Harts loyal service to the WWF/E before he had to turn heel, but after that he just became a cry baby bitch and started thinking about nothing but himself and his own interests. You also have to realize that he is the one who caused a problem of any kind with Shawn. He had problems with him before they ever had a match because he just didn't like him. Why? Basically because he was everything Bret wasn't which incidentally went over huge with the fans and he couldn't figure it out.

I take nothing away from either man, They are both two of the greatest performers of all time. I only brought up professionalism because I thought they were so evenly matched up in every other way and that was the one thing that stood out to me. I don't care what anyone says, when you look at the 97 situation Bret blew it. I already explained why in great detail that I say these things and I have pretty water tight arguments, feel free to go back and read them as to further your education on the matter.


It looks like this thing has turned into almost somewhat of a flame war. Everyone want's to argue at each other about who did better moves, or this or that. I said earlier that they complimented each other perfectly. Where one lacked the other excelled and vice versa, they were both great. I think the thing that puts Shawn over the top though is the fact that he still wrestles today at the same level he did before if not damn close, and that's a testament to his entire legacy.

You have no doubt had a non-biased view and I agree with most of what you said but I just had to comment on the professionalism. I just dont see how you can think Shawn was more professional. Yes Ill admit that Bret was unprofessional during "the incident" but that was one time in 14 years. Yes he was a cry baby during his heel run but that was his character. He was supposed to whine and bitch over everything. I mean Shawn started a klique of guys to try and control all the booking and hold guys down, how could you get any more unprofessional then that? They even asked Bret to be their leader but he turned them down. Shawn was also known for being a total pillhead in the 90s hopped up on them all the time and downing them like candy. So this is a guy that wrestles and another man puts his body in his hands and he's high most of the time. That is not professional at all. He was also suspended during that time for drug abuse. Nothing like that happened to Bret. I will say that Shawn looks like he might be a different man since his return but I dont think there is any denying that he was less of a professional then Bret while Bret was there.

 

[Slam Master]

I'm a huge fan of both of them. They are my 2 favorite wrestlers ever. These are just my opinions based on things that happened in the past.

Someone stated that HBK and Sid were the worst draws in WWF history...hmm I wonder why....Maybe because the WCW took many made WWF guys and turned them into the nWo (Nash, Hall, Hogan, Macho). It was fresh, reality based, and cutting edge. It may have been one of the best ground-breaking pro wrestling storylines ever. The WWF was still stuck in the cartoon age. One guy can't be blamed for the company doing bad as a whole. If it wasn't for Shawn being as good as he was, they might have shuttered completely. When the WWF recovered in time for WM14, they tripled the PPV buyrate with Michaels headlining. If his back didn't break, he would have vastly improved the drawing capability.

HBK did all the moonsaults and flying moves because he could and cus he enjoyed it, not cus he had to. He was versatile, great on the mic, and knew what the fans wanted and could change with the times(innovative). I'm a fan of both of them, but I give Shawn the edge. He had great matches with everyone and was versatile. One of Bret Hart's downfalls was that he had to have every match HIS way. And once he got into his routine; backbreaker, legsweep, elbow off 2nd rope, and sharpshooter, nothing changed. He also was stuck in the heroes vs villains angles and didn't want to adapt to cutting edge angles. Granted he had certain values and morals but he held others down by being selfish. Bret was a great worker and gifted wrestler but as soon as he went down the ladder to HBK he became resentful and acted like a spoiled child. The thing that needs realizing is that Bret and Vince are basically the same guy. They were both sons of promoters that were selfish, spoiled and felt they knew what was best for the company.

 

[Lu Nortd Court]

Well, I respect Shawn...in the 90's he was a poision. Since his return he's erased some of the stigma that was painted on him in the 90's. That being said, Bret is better. Simply put. He has had a much bigger impact on the real wrestling fans than shawn. And the older causual fans too. This man hasnt had a match in 10 fuckin years and still he is maybe the most talked about guy on these forums. Mostly positive I might add. IMO Bret is far superior ...in the ring, behind the scenes and drawing power..worldwide michaels cant hold a candle to Bret's popularity. That's FACT. Shawn has had almost another 10 years of great matches since bret left wrestling and he is still not considered by most to be as good as Bret. That says it all. Jesus imagine if Bret wrestled even another 5 years...OMG...Shawn wouldnt even have a chance people. So your question of who is really better????????? The Hitman...Simpy JUST BETTER

 

[Emmet]

I'm a huge fan of both of them. They are my 2 favorite wrestlers ever. These are just my opinions based on things that happened in the past.

Someone stated that HBK and Sid were the worst draws in WWF history...hmm I wonder why....Maybe because the WCW took many made WWF guys and turned them into the nWo (Nash, Hall, Hogan, Macho). It was fresh, reality based, and cutting edge. It may have been one of the best ground-breaking pro wrestling storylines ever. The WWF was still stuck in the cartoon age. One guy can't be blamed for the company doing bad as a whole. If it wasn't for Shawn being as good as he was, they might have shuttered completely. When the WWF recovered in time for WM14, they tripled the PPV buyrate with Michaels headlining. If his back didn't break, he would have vastly improved the drawing capability.

HBK did all the moonsaults and flying moves because he could and cus he enjoyed it, not cus he had to. He was versatile, great on the mic, and knew what the fans wanted and could change with the times(innovative). I'm a fan of both of them, but I give Shawn the edge. He had great matches with everyone and was versatile. One of Bret Hart's downfalls was that he had to have every match HIS way. And once he got into his routine; backbreaker, legsweep, elbow off 2nd rope, and sharpshooter, nothing changed. He also was stuck in the heroes vs villains angles and didn't want to adapt to cutting edge angles. Granted he had certain values and morals but he held others down by being selfish. Bret was a great worker and gifted wrestler but as soon as he went down the ladder to HBK he became resentful and acted like a spoiled child. The thing that needs realizing is that Bret and Vince are basically the same guy. They were both sons of promoters that were selfish, spoiled and felt they knew what was best for the company.

You trying to tell me Bret vs Austin wasn't cutting edge at the time? The Bret/Austin fued completely pisses over the Austin/HBK fued of a year later. Completely. Bret never always wanted to have his way, Bret knew the way wrestling worked, inside out, he knew when to take care of guys and when to make them look good, he made Owen and Austin look like a zillion bucks. He even made Kevin Nash look good.

Bret had no problem losing to HBK at WM12, Bret has said that many times. Him and HBK were close friends at that time, what happened was that Vince did to HBK and Bret as what he did to Hogan and Bret in 1993, was that he played them off each other, like his own 2 personal wrestling dolls which he would bash together whenever he felt like it. HBK was big time on pills back in 96 and 97, and was a paranoid wreck from what ive read and heard.

Bret and HBK had talked about this long drawn out program between the 2 which would last a year and a half with Bret and HBK both jobbing to each other for the title, and eventually they would make up and become a tag team. Bret wasn't resentful of people clibming the ladder over him (if that was the case he wouldn't have made Austin look as good as he did).

Bret was more than a team player, except for the event we all know about.

 

[jrcongine]

i voted for hbk. He always had more emotion involved in his matches than bret. Both great workers but hbk seemed to do more to involve the storyline than just straight wrestling as bret focused on.

 

[god-soldier]

There is no doubt let alone no question that the Hitman is better than that loser HBK. HBK only beat Bret twice and the second and the first time you can say were false victories. The iron match was over and he won in a sudden death overtime which was a lucky win and Montreal were not going to even talk about that bullshit. In actualty Bret has deafted HBK more than a 10 times including 6 times in 1992 3 times in 1993 and probably he beat him again in 1994 and maybe up until his face turn in 1995. But wrestling skills and resilence definatly the Hitman who faced all the same competitors Michaels faced when he was champion and he beat Goldberg 3 times and Micahels got squashed by him in the elimantion chamber just look at the title records and prestige it all points to the Hitman 5time WWE Champion 2time WCW Champion 1993 King of the Ring Winner Royal Rumble winner in 1994 2 time I-C champ and US champ WWF tag team champs 2 times and WCW tag champs 1 time HBK hs held WWF title 3 times World Champion 1 time European Champ 1 time I-C champ 3 times and Royal Rumble Winner 2 times tag champs 2 times The tale of the tape Hitman all the way best there is best there was and the best there ever will be

 

[Slam Master]

You trying to tell me Bret vs Austin wasn't cutting edge at the time? The Bret/Austin fued completely pisses over the Austin/HBK fued of a year later. Completely. Bret never always wanted to have his way, Bret knew the way wrestling worked, inside out, he knew when to take care of guys and when to make them look good, he made Owen and Austin look like a zillion bucks. He even made Kevin Nash look good.

Bret had no problem losing to HBK at WM12, Bret has said that many times. Him and HBK were close friends at that time, what happened was that Vince did to HBK and Bret as what he did to Hogan and Bret in 1993, was that he played them off each other, like his own 2 personal wrestling dolls which he would bash together whenever he felt like it. HBK was big time on pills back in 96 and 97, and was a paranoid wreck from what ive read and heard.

Bret and HBK had talked about this long drawn out program between the 2 which would last a year and a half with Bret and HBK both jobbing to each other for the title, and eventually they would make up and become a tag team. Bret wasn't resentful of people clibming the ladder over him (if that was the case he wouldn't have made Austin look as good as he did).

Bret was more than a team player, except for the event we all know about.

Like I said I like Bret just as much as Shawn. I'm not saying Bret and Austin wasn't a cool feud, I agree, but when the WWF started to rebound with the Tyson angle they tripled the PPV buyrate with HBK headlining from the previous year. WM13-.77 WM14-3.2...If you read the books, Bret's in particular, he was the one who brought up the drawn out feud to Shawn, and came up with HBK losing to him and then HBK winning it back, suggesting it to Vince and JR. Vince never said that it was going to happen, just that he liked the idea(Brets book, the chapter during WM12). Vince did use their animosity for personal gain for the company like you said.

HBK was a serious drug addict that escalated the situation due do perception problems. Of course both books are going to be biased. HBK was no angel and played a part in the negative stuff that happened, but Bret isn't completely innocent either. Vince layed out the plans for him if he chose to stay cus he woulda been able to pay him everything on time; losing to HBK 3 more times before beating him for the title only to drop it to Steve Austin and WM14. Obviously he didn't wanna be under the main event and not be the champion. He also admitted he wasn't gonna stay for any less money. Someone who talks about loyalty, pride and respect shouldn't mind putting the younger buck who's gonna carry the company into the throne. Bret carried the torch for basically 3 years and didn't want to back out for the new breed of stars bad enough to stay. Bret didn't believe in the attitude stuff and made in known in the back. It had to be about him.

And Dr. James Andrews documented Shawn Michaels knee injury and the fact that he needed time off. The office and the boys built it up to Shawn that Bret literally wanted to beat his ass.