I'd like to give a genuine thank you to DragonSlayer for being upstanding and civil, I agree with a lot of what you said and you made some good points as we both have. You remained respectful and have I and we made a good debate on the matter. On the other hand I have this Andy Zones guy attempting to berate me and make me look bad because he's so biased.
Guess what Andy, I could careless what you have to say to me. I gave my unbiased opinion because of such strong biases like yours. I tried to present both sides of the argument, and tell truths of the incidents surrounding the two performers. I had to point out the things that are credits to Shawn Michaels because of people like you who are so biased they wouldn't give him credit for anything he's done. The truth is, BOTH wrestlers are great, both have had great careers, and the reason this discussion is such a heated one is because of how good each one is. Your accounts of things you claim Shawn Michaels has done here or there have no support or merit. The only things that do, were undoubtedly done in the show, as a part of the show, and if your such a mark you can't discern between the two than you need a reality check. I had to bring up the things Bret has done to contrast what you and others claim Shawn has done to show that he is also at fault in many ways making them even in a lot of ways. If the argument wasn't so one sided I wouldn't have to even it out, but I did. Too bad, so sad. Don't try to flame me again either, it just makes you look bad, and frustrates me because I then have to make one of these ******ed speeches to clarify things for the likes of someone like you. Now I will show you how stupid you made yourself look by trying to argue in a heated rage.
Calling Bret hart unprofessional is like spiting in every true hart fan. Thats as low as you can get.
Yep, that's it alright. Let it be known to everyone that, that is exactly what I was doing. I gave good and bad marks to both guys but I just wanted to spit in the face of every Bret Hart fan. I guess that means I'd have to try and spit in my own face too, that might be difficult. I just wanted to take every cheap shot I could and try to make myself look like an ass, you got me!!(that's sarcasm for those who might not pick up on that right away)
What the hell you are talking about. If you are screwing a guy out of his pride, integrity, his own existence in front of his family, friends and in his own home country what do you expect him to do. If I was Bret I would have given McMahon the beating of his life in front of the crowd .
There you go again, showing what a mark you can be. No one was screwing anyone of their pride, integrity, existence, country, whatever else you can come up with. He was asked to do one thing, and refused. That was unreasonable and as a result Vince had to do what was best for his business and Shawn had very little to do with it, that's the funny thing. Vince told him what was going on and just not to say he knew anything about it, that's it. Other than that Shawn just wrestled the match, and did his job, that is professionalism. What Bret was expected to do was loose his title fair and square, and because of his grudge against Shawn for whatever reasons valid or not, and his own ego's sake he refused and if you think I am wrong look around, others agree. You go on making yourself look silly by stating that if you were Bret Hart you would have given Vince the beating of his life in front of the crowd. That just shows how ridiculous you are, and why Bret Hart is more of a professional than you ever would be. I will give him the credit that he waited to do that until later against his urges. you're just making yourself look bad.
We all know wrestling is based on storylines and every wrestler has to play his character as told by the story makers and by the way Bret was doing that in Montréal. He was doing what he was asked to do by vince McMahon and that was a lead to finish the match via disqualification
Which part was Bret doing as instructed according to storyline? Would you be referring to his spitting in Vince's face, writing WCW in the air, making a scene? was that all storyline? No, it was uncalled for regardless of what happened and only made him and the WWF look bad. One of the things I stated about what Bret was doing, also referred to storyline and him going outside of it in his in ring commentaries talking about his personal feelings towards Shawn when he was supposed to be talking about Anti-American stuff to draw heat, and hype thier rivalry. Next point.
Bret wanted to shook HBK s hand but instead Shawn yelled at him and told him to get the fuck out of my ring.
I actually covered this one earlier. That was Shawn's moment and should have had it his way which he did. Do I think it was a nice thing to tell him to get out the ring? no, I already said that. If Bret wanted to shake his hand he could have waited until backstage or something and let Shawn have his moment in the ring with his first world title. Like I said I already went over this, just a regurgitated statement on your part.
Sure Bret hart refused to lose the title to Shawn . But it was due to Shawn s own fault.
How was that??? For being the next up and comer??? for being a guy Bret didn't like??? oh ok,that makes sense, and since it's Bret Hart it doesn't matter, obviously he can do no wrong according to you.
Shawn is known for bashing Legendary Hart family in reality. Once he called Legendary stu hart as a dead man walking in the streets of Calgary. Is that professional towards a fellow wrestler s father. Michaels Refused to do the job for bret at wrestlemania 13 after Bret did the job for him at wm12, instead he forfeited his title with a fake injury and gave an stupid lost my smile speech. Is that Professionalism. Shawn accused Bret of having an affair with a women in the same business.
First on talking about Stu Hart, I remember him doing that on the show in storyline, and that is completely different than the accusation you make. People always talk trash like that in the show and it is understood between the wrestlers that it is all done for the show and that those things are never reflections of their true feelings because they all respect each others families enough to be able to do that in the show. Looks like you read way too deep into the storylines, which shows you to be a real mark. The lost my smile thing was legit, Shawn was injured, and had little if anything to do with not wanting to drop his title to Bret, that is a fabrication by people like yourself who have some kind of grudge against Shawn Michaels for nothing, what proof is there that Shawn refused, where is it? Some story you once heard? That's what I thought. Oh yeah, the accusation of the affair was actually true as well, Bret was taking shots at Shawn and Shawn fired back by revealing some dirty secrets of Bret's. It was also admitted later that Bret had numerous infidelities on the road so I wouldn't be trying to paint him as some saint if I were you.
Shawn accused Bret of having an affair with a women in the same business. Is that professionalism. When bret said he has no problem in putting Shawn over Shawn responded by refusing to do a job for bret or any other wrestler in the territory.
Oh yeah I forgot, you were there when Shawn said all that, sorry I was wrong. How dare I question as reliable a source as you.(sarcasm once again)
Hell even Shawn refused to drop the title against Austin at wm14.
Once again you humble me with your unquestionable sources of information. Especially since Shawn did do just that as he had a back injury that he wrestled through the entire match with.
After Montreal , he promised Bret he will drop the title next night on raw to show his disappointment over the whole screw job and instead he came out with making fun of bret hart with his midgets.
Oh yeah you were there for that too, I should have known that, silly me. Even if he did after the show, what else was he supposed to do? Tell Bret then and there he knew about it when Vince already told him to just deny any knowledge of the incident? Yeah, that would have made it all better. As for the midgets, keep in mind that Shawn doesn't do what Shawn want's to do, he does as told. So if anyone is to blame for that it's the writers, or maybe Vince. There you go again making false accusations about things you haven't thought out, and frankly don't know about.
Recently when wwe went for a show in UK , during his entrance shawn saw a bret hart fan wearing bret s trademark sunglasses , He grabbed those sunglasses off the fans head , wore it and yelled I Screw Bret ,When the fan tried to get his sunglasses back he manhandled him and called security to throw the fan out of building and same happened .
Wow, I would hate to see your frequent flyer miles, cause you are all over the place. You must have free trips around the world built up by now because apparently you have been everywhere Shawn Michaels has for the last 13 years to document anything and everything he has ever done to make fun of Bret Hart or his fans. You must be a busy guy. All this sounds like a bunch of garbage. What proof do you have, how would you know any of this? Hearsay? Well, that's about as reliable as Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels booked for Wrestlmaina 25.
I can give You a dozen more example which could prove that Shawn was a biggest asshole then , I dont know what he is know.
I bet you could, obviously you know about shit that no one else on the planet does. You must be talking to Miss Cleo on her psychic hot line. The only thing of truth you've said is that you don't know about Shawn Michaels. Since the rumored incidents you've stated he's been a workhorse for the WWE, headlined Wrestlmania, been a locker room leader, one of the most dependable guys in the company, put on amazing matches over and over again, and while Bret Hart has been retired due to reasons beyond him, Shawn was sidelined for four years, came back to win another title in the elimination chamber, had an amazing feud with Triple H, Chris Jericho, Batista, Retired Ric Flair, and is always a guy you can put in the title picture, and I am missing a lot of stuff, this is what I could think of of the top of my head. Overall he's cemented his status as arguably the greatest wrestler of all time, and that's from Ric Flairs mouth, and everyone else who doesn't carry some crazy bias.
Bret never jumped ship , he was forced to leave the ship because Vince McMahon wanted him to.
Wrong again. He could have stayed and took a pay cut just like Shawn, and he did offer to defer the payments but Vince couldn't do that in case the company folded. You'd have to be crazy to think that Vince actually wanted him to go, that's absurd.
Bret got the spotlight from his birth as he was born in a great wrestling family. Bret was getting spotlight in wwe lot before HBK ever thought of. He was in the lead role from late 1992 while HBK won his first title in early 1996.
How much more naive could you be? That is the exact reason why he was jealous, why he was pissed, and why he hated Shawn. He felt that he was so much better that no one else should have what he deemed as his spot. You make it like he was such a great guy to let anyone else be there when he had no choice. He was pissed about Shawn getting the focus he was well before he got the title because he saw what was coming, that being someone taking his place and he didn't like that.
If anybody who bret thought was the person to take his position then it was steve Austin not Shawn micheals.
Exactly my point, it was anybody but Shawn because he couldn't stand him so much. By the way, at the time when Shawn was set to go over him Steve Austin wasn't even up there yet, he was the Ringmaster so, so much for that argument.
Shawn was never a threat to bret s throne..Hell It was bret who put him over at wm12 .. It s disgusting to call shawn a threat to bret s throne
If that was true than Bret would never had had to put Shawn over at Wrestlmania. You seem to think that Bret had the ability to just decide who he would or would not win or lose to as a true mark would. That's not how it works. He saw Shawn getting all the hype all the attention, and furthermore fan support and didn't like it, again because of his utter dislike of Shawn for nothing more than that, jealousy. Like I said, he thought he was so much better that everyone should like him, should nice him, and that he should have stayed the champion.
He was given all those accomplishments because he worked hard for it and deserved it completely.
I never argued that, but others tried to act like he just got dumped on the whole time, including Bret himself. He was kept in the title picture and given his own faction. I pointed that out, and that he didn't like the fact that he had this faction, and they had gold but he didn't, and that he was so much better, had been the guy, and wasn't anymore suddenly to a guy that he thought was so far beneath him. Never did I state that he didn't earn anything he got. I simply pointed out that he got more than he gave credit to having.
You have missed no opportunity to disgrace and degrade bret hart s legacy by calling him disloyal and self righteous and you are calling yourself a fair guy. Disgusting.
You don't pay attention to detail much do you? I said that his actions were disloyal in some ways, as were his actions. Never did I just try to tear him down if anything I made the right point as obviously you see that it was or you wouldn't be pissed off if there was no truth to it. I was fair in every way. I argued both sides but had to argue more for Shawn because so much in his favor was overlooked. Had I not pointed out those things in Shawn's favor that would have been biased for Bret Hart.
The company responded by taking life of his brother.
I can't believe you even dared to say such a thing. This only shows your lack of information, complete bias, and how poorly thought out ever word you said was. How could you ever say such a thing. What happened to Owen was a tragedy and simply that. He and Vince had tested the stunt numerous times that day, it was a freak accident, that's all. You just make yourself look even stupider and even more of a thoughtless extremist with that comment.
MR . Wrestlemania my ass
If you call shawn mr wrestlemania who was guy with whom his greatest match at wrestlemania come against.
One of his greatest matches may have been with Bret Hart, but arguably his best match at Wrestlmania was with Chris Jericho at WM19, or even John Cena at 23. How about WM 14 with Stone Cold, or maybe WM 24 with Ric Flair, WM 11 with Diesel, WM 21 with Benoit and Triple H,WM22 with McMahon, or any of the other great matches he's had, tons of them. That's why he's called that. He's headlined almost every Wrestlmaina he's been in, or had a show stealing match, and been the main event, the showstopper, all of it every time he's stepped in the ring, so once again you look like an idiot.
Shawn never been showstopper he has been a show stealer.
Yet another testament to his greatness, thank you.
Bret hart doesnt need your certificate to prove that he was the best in the business , we all true hart fan know that already.
I never said he did, we all know he was one of the best, and I am a true Hart fan. I just won't overlook the less desirable things he's done in blind fanboy style because I like him, just the same as I wouldn't for Shawn.
You Say He has done it professionally and respectfully yeah he lied, screwed, back stabbed , ass kissed promoters, Professionally and respectfully
He did what he had to do nothing more. Back stab, never, did his job, always. Ass kissed? No proof, if by ass kiss you mean be respectful to his bosses, his co workers, and do as told I guess so. The only thing we know he lied about had it's purpose and you know why. Here all you have done is slander Shawn Michaels without reason, and once again for the umteenth time make yourself look bad, stupid, like a mark, and an uninformed mark. please, don't ever, ever try me again. I am not one to flame, and I don't like even having to do what I just did but you asked for it. Now I will finish.
I guess for me I felt Bret took things too personally and let his ego get in the way too much and I think so highly of him it is a big let down to me hence the reason I have to choose HBK over him. He is someone I hold to high standards as he does himself and it felt to me like that all went out the window because he was unwilling to come to reasonable terms. As a wrestler few can rival him but I believe Shawn is one of the few easily. I think that Shawn's style is more spectacular to the viewer and his gimmick as HBK is part of it. Obviously with the loudmouth and flamboyance and flashy outfits he was meant to appeal to the crowd in a bigger way, he was just flashier, with a flashier style which in turn makes him the bigger showman if you can see my logic there. Shawn has had the longevity in his career despite career ending injuries, and performed at a level not even Bret Hart has over a long period of time. He has literally given his body to the sport, the fans, and his peers. I'm not saying Bret never did, but he hasn't been wrestling for years now. He's been recognized for his accomplishments and inducted into the Hall of Fame, he has received his accolades. Shawn get's a lot of unwarranted heat from people like Andy Zone, who fail to recognize anything Shawn has done or refuse. It is people like DragonSlayer though who are a credit to the Bret Hart fan base, who are willing to recognize both mens abilities accomplishment, and credits to their character as do I. We have our differences of opinions, and agree to disagree respectfully and have both made great points regarding both men and thier careers. That is what these forums are all about.
