Week 8: Gelgarin -versus- Falkon

[Mr. TM]

If a heel gets a cheer, is it bad?

FalKon is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends + 24 hours after Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

 

[Viola Moonlight]

My argument: If a heel gets a cheer, it is not bad. However, I will post my side of the argument later on as I have got a few shifts to do. If Gelgarin wants to go first he can... but I won't be posting my side within the next 24 hours. After that, I will.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Professional Wrestling as a whole commotity incoporates many factors that makes the entire "sports entertainment" if you will successful. It is basically a show of roleplaying characters, creating storylines between these characters & having all the issues be resolved in the ring, which attempts to continue along with the storytelling whilst these characters are performing. For one factor to work, there needs to be a definitive line between who are the evil villians of the plot & who are the good heroes defending rightful honour. Generally, it is depicted that the good characters face off against the evil characters where the audience watching the story sides with the good character, naturally. The story goes back & forth between the characters, emphasising both sides roles giving feeling & emotion to the feuds. It all cultimates into that one final match where the story tends to lean for the good hero overcoming all odds in defeating the evil villian. This is something that has made professional wrestling very successful over its years during the "kayfabe era" & always provided a solid foundation for any wrestler.

As the industry grew with the development of the internet, the mainstream media devulging its thoughts on the matter & professional wrestlers starting to move away from their "kayfabe" characters outside of life... the professional wrestling audience watching the shows began to understand how the business works & how these stories are scripted for the purposes of entertainment. Fast-forwarding through time to the modern day shows how the industry has been impacted on since the whole world discovered that it was all scripted from the beginning & how a team known as the "Creative & Booking" decided how the stories would play out to the audiences. Along with this, came the realisation of the fans knowing or having an idea of how the wrestlers themselves would portray their characters & emphasis their roles in the story now knowing that "kayfabe" only was applicable to the ring.

The knowledge of internet sources, professional wrestlers seperating their personal & wrestling lives as well as people from the business sharing their sides of the stories, fans have become more intelligent about how stories & matches go. They know that they can sit back & relax whilst watching these matches, systematically analysing what is occurring in the ring & how the characters in the match/story are effectively showcasing themselves for fans entertainment & the business. Fans have started to moved away from the mystery that is "kayfabe" by cheering on the heroes & booing the villians, instead substituting it for cheering the characters that is doing the better role of utilising their characters to further develop the story/match & booing the one who is not contributing to their full potential.

Take the Randy Orton versus John Cena match at the recently aired Breaking Point PPV where they went against each other in an "I Quit" for the WWE Championship in a rivalry that has been "on & off" for the past couple of years. Randy Orton plays the villianous evil character known as the "Viper," someone who slithers & consistently processes & updates himself to become part of the situation who is very sadistic in doing so. John Cena took the position of the hero that is determined to never give up & mimick that of a real life superhero in the form of a human being, showing that the right thing to do is be a good person in life. Throughout the match, both Orton & Cena were met with a mixed reaction from the audience where Randy Orton was cheered moreso than John Cena, despite the fact that Cena was the man to led the audience onto his side. The reasoning behind this was because of the fan's knowledge being able to point towards Randy Orton saying that he is the better character playing the role better than John Cena is. They felt it was neccessary to show their support for (Orton,) the man who was giving them the entertainment the company & the feud was attempting to deliver to them. Most of these same people decided to boo John Cena as they feel that he is becoming a stale character that is losing the audience's interests yet someone who still has potential to become one of the best.

One notable point in the match where this occurred was when Randy Orton handcuffed John Cena's hands together & hung Cena on the outside on the turnbuckle, leaving him practically swinging about defenceless. Orton then assaulted & mocked Cena in the corner, delivering an offense that was met with no negative reactions from the audience. They felt that they did not need to say anything negative as they were enjoying what they were seeing to add the fuel to the fire. When Orton got kicked in the testicles & sent him to the ground having a chance for Cena to escape, the crowd started to voice their opinions by letting them know that they did not want this to stop at that point. Another notable point was when John Cena found the strength to get up & handcuff himself to Randy Orton. He then proceeded to "fire himself up" to take out the villian from the pain & suffering he received from the sasdistic one. Orton acted in cowardice to play up Cena's role that you do not mess with the hero at all. Despite the fact that the crowd should be displaying their love for Cena and cheer him on, there were still parts of the crowd that acted in a negative manner to voice theit opinions about why Cena is about to go crazy over Orton. They did not enjoy the fact that Randy Orton was in complete control of the match throughout the entire time, inflicting punishment that will make a lesser man quit by now & suddenly have the strength to go on a barage of offense.

What I am trying to explain here is that the crowd has understood that the "kayfabe" of the ring & the stories/matches made by the company they are watching is aimed at entertaining the audience. They have realised the best thing for the company in feedback from a live majority is that they need to express their opinions about how everything has been scripted, whether it has been positive or negative in their eyes. This does not neccessarily mean that cheering the heel is detrimental for the product, but a clear indication of who the crowd would rather see in the spotlight & who they think has no chance of succeeding in the business. After all, the best critics are the fans. If they aren't happy, then they will eventually turn their backs on the business & find something else. The business will start to see a noticable shift in fan viewings & realise the amount of buyrates/profits will drop, thus indicating something to the business that there needs to be a change.

 

[Gelgarin]

Good evening. I'm still suffering a little from my feud with Finley, but I think I've got just enough strength within me to successfully argue that the sky is blue.

Forgive the lack of chauvinistic introduction today, but arguing that people cheering a performer who's entire function is to get the crowd to boo him doesn't really inspire me with competitive urges. Reading my opponents opening I think I am for the first time coming to realise why the judges have a thing for bold text and sub-headings, so I guess I'll go that route today.

Reasons why heels getting cheered is a bad thing.

Reason 1) It hurts the show.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Those fans who consider themselves bigger than the product and set out to route for the bad guy are nothing more than a vocal minority. If you look the polls they run on WWE.com or the merchandise figures you can swiftly come to the conclusion that the faces are the most popular men in the company, and John Cena's millions of fans probably find it somewhat undermines the TV experience to hear a small section of the crowd booing their hero.
Lets look at Triple H's last stretcher job. The whole point of the angle build heat on whoever beet him down (damned if I can remember who it was) and generare sympathy for HHH.
Unfortunately for the WWE, and few douche bags in the crowd decided to start singing "Na na, hay hay, goodbye" whilst he was being carted off, and transformed an effective angle into a total farce.
It goes the other way as well, when Randy Orton punts a war widow in the head it is supposed to make the crowd hate him, and pay to watch somebody beet him up. This won't be as effective if people are cheering him on whilst he does it.

Fans who think they are above the show ironically end up undermining it.

Reason 2) Vince says it's a bad thing.

Weak title I'll concede, but in the circumstances apt. When in comes to getting people to pay to watch wrestling, there is nobody in the world better than Vince McMahon. He's had decades in the industry,and has had far more success booking than anybody else alive. I think we can agree that Vince knows what he's talking about.

That being said, Vince is firmly of the opinion that heels shouldn't get cheered, and has gone to great lengths to try and ensure it to be so. I'm sure you read that Kennedy interview off of the front page a couple of weeks ago, when he talks about how Vince kept telling him "not to be entertaining". The reason for that is because that's not what he's for.
The faces are there for being entertaining; the heels are there to work with the faces. If people start cheering heels then they become faces automatically, which means that all the old faces loose all their value. That hurts both booking and buy rates, since it has been proven time and time again that the battle between good and evil is the most effective way to draw money in pro wrestling.

Reason 3) Because heels don't want to be cheered.

If a baby face is getting booed out of the arena every night then it's a fairly good indicator that he's not doing a good job. The exact same logic holds true for the heels. The job specification is to go out there and draw heat, and having read your opening post several times, I'm still left unsure why you think that people failing to do this is a good thing.
Perhaps if I try to take a closer look.

Professional Wrestling as a whole commotity incoporates many factors that makes the entire "sports entertainment" if you will successful. It is basically a show of roleplaying characters, creating storylines between these characters & having all the issues be resolved in the ring, which attempts to continue along with the storytelling whilst these characters are performing. For one factor to work, there needs to be a definitive line between who are the evil villians of the plot & who are the good heroes defending rightful honour. Generally, it is depicted that the good characters face off against the evil characters where the audience watching the story sides with the good character, naturally. The story goes back & forth between the characters, emphasising both sides roles giving feeling & emotion to the feuds. It all cultimates into that one final match where the story tends to lean for the good hero overcoming all odds in defeating the evil villian. This is something that has made professional wrestling very successful over its years during the "kayfabe era" & always provided a solid foundation for any wrestler.

Mostly accurate, but for the assertion about the kayfabe era. Kayfabe went ages ago, and wrestling has still remained built around the concept of the good guy against the bad guy. The reason being that this is what works.
Kids are a massive section of the wrestling audience, and want the show to be booked round heroes. To get heroes you have to have villains, and if the villain is getting cheered then they're failing to be a villain.

As the industry grew with the development of the internet, the mainstream media devulging its thoughts on the matter & professional wrestlers starting to move away from their "kayfabe" characters outside of life... the professional wrestling audience watching the shows began to understand how the business works & how these stories are scripted for the purposes of entertainment. Fast-forwarding through time to the modern day shows how the industry has been impacted on since the whole world discovered that it was all scripted from the beginning & how a team known as the "Creative & Booking" decided how the stories would play out to the audiences. Along with this, came the realisation of the fans knowing or having an idea of how the wrestlers themselves would portray their characters & emphasis their roles in the story now knowing that "kayfabe" only was applicable to the ring.

The knowledge of internet sources, professional wrestlers seperating their personal & wrestling lives as well as people from the business sharing their sides of the stories, fans have become more intelligent about how stories & matches go. They know that they can sit back & relax whilst watching these matches, systematically analysing what is occurring in the ring & how the characters in the match/story are effectively showcasing themselves for fans entertainment & the business. Fans have started to moved away from the mystery that is "kayfabe" by cheering on the heroes & booing the villians, instead substituting it for cheering the characters that is doing the better role of utilising their characters to further develop the story/match & booing the one who is not contributing to their full potential.

What you appear to be using these three hundred words to say is that people know it's scripted... to which I respond so what. People know 24 is scripted, that changes nothing. The show is built around the concept of good vs evil, and if people are cheering for evil then it means something has gone wrong.

Take the Randy Orton versus John Cena match at the recently aired Breaking Point PPV where they went against each other in an "I Quit" for the WWE Championship in a rivalry that has been "on & off" for the past couple of years. Randy Orton plays the villianous evil character known as the "Viper," someone who slithers & consistently processes & updates himself to become part of the situation who is very sadistic in doing so. John Cena took the position of the hero that is determined to never give up & mimick that of a real life superhero in the form of a human being, showing that the right thing to do is be a good person in life. Throughout the match, both Orton & Cena were met with a mixed reaction from the audience where Randy Orton was cheered moreso than John Cena, despite the fact that Cena was the man to led the audience onto his side. The reasoning behind this was because of the fan's knowledge being able to point towards Randy Orton saying that he is the better character playing the role better than John Cena is. They felt it was neccessary to show their support for (Orton,) the man who was giving them the entertainment the company & the feud was attempting to deliver to them. Most of these same people decided to boo John Cena as they feel that he is becoming a stale character that is losing the audience's interests yet someone who still has potential to become one of the best.

And the argument in there is what? Given that John Cena is the company's top draw and the best wrestler in the world, all you appear to be pointing out is that a handful of fans who want to show everyone how smart they are decided to try and spoil the atmosphere for everyone.

I'm not going to bother with your next block of text; I'll just summarise it as "fan feedback", which is the first coherent argument you've put forward. That being said, you've immediately handed me a massive weakness to exploit when you say that "the fans are the best critics". Whilst this sounds nice, it's totally untrue. What a handful of smarky twenty-somethings feel the need to shout has absolutely no baring on the wrestling audience as a whole. If that minority had been taken seriously then John Cena would have been fired years ago, instead of developing into one of the most popular wrestlers in the company.
Vince already knows how to draw money from wrestling. It's the same way money's been made for the past fifty years. Good vs Evil; and they do not want people undermining that.

Of course people cheering for the bad guy is a bad thing.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Rebuttal To Initial Statements:​

Reason 1) It hurts the show.

This is a big statement to make without the sufficient evidence to back it up. Luckily for me, it is much easier to disprove this. By the way, I would like to also mention that hometown heroes do not count in this discussion as these cannot be argued upon for this certain topic in an accurate manner.

As we can both agree on, the majority of the audience understands the concept behind professional wrestling about who they cheer for & who they boo for. There is a small minority that seems to become the rebels & do the exact opposite, sometimes to the point where the audience is completely split down the middle about how they are supporting. Much like the Randy Orton vs. John Cena matches. However, everytime there seems to be some sort of rebellion amonst the fans, those that fully understand the mechanics of the show will try to narrow the playing field or eliminate the "heel cheerers/face booers" by voicing their own opinions about the matter. From here, the audiences seem to either drown out those who aren't doing the correct thing or the two sides battle each other for dominance.

When we get to this point, this is doing everything but hurt the show. One of the most important factors of professional wrestling is the audience. If the crowd is dead, everything about that entire evening will become lackluster. Not even the match between Shawn Michaels & Undertaker could garner anything above a 4 star match rating. When the crowd is electric where the camera's are shaking from the noise, what you hear in the ring is being overtaken by the crowd & the people at home are subject to chills down their backs from the noise, it is up to the show to put on anything decent or above to achieve a 4 star rating. By having the rebellion from the crowd & the retaliation from the other audience members can attribute to the crowd becoming more electric. This gives off the impression that the crowd are being sucked into the show to believe it is real-life by displaying the passion & enthusiasm to what they are witnessing. In turn, their reactions give a sense that the match is worth something more. The atmosphere given by the audience in doing this process definitely helps the show in this regard.

I must also re-iterate that the fans reactions during the matches can be considered null & void if the match is a classic bout where nothing goes "wrong." When the time comes for wrestlers to enter a match, even after storied rivalries take place & there is a definite split between the faces & the heels, the audience becomes into the mode where they judge how the wrestlers incorporate their characters & what has happened previously into the match to entertain them. For the most part, they do what is intended of them by cheering the faces & booing the heels that does add something more to the show. However, during some certain spots of the match, the audience might appreciate what they are seeing & are completely blown away from what has happened. They intend to give the respect the spot deserves, whether it may be applause to both competitors for the execution or by a specific wrestler performing perfectly. There are situations where the heel character does so where the crowd has no choice but to give thanks as it is entertaining them. Though it is sacrificing what the character is geared to do by garnering hate, it is a small price to pay in fulfilling a satisfied audience & solely entertaining them. They know, by the majority's reaction of boos/cheers, who is the face/heel is & what the story is about... but they feel that they need to express what they think about the entertainment being given forth to the crowd.

An example of this was the Mickie James vs. Trish Stratus match at WrestleMania 22 for the WWE Women's Championship. Throughout the whole feud, the audience showed their hate towards the psychopathic James in order to will on Trish through the end & become the victor. No matter what James did, she was able to gain heat from the audience & thus fulfill her job. When it came time to have the match between the two girls that would ultimately be the match of the feud, the crowd responded postively to the newcomer James, cheering for her due to her excellent portrayal of a psychopath, offering something new to the division & being entertaining. As for Trish, the audience felt that it was time for the rookie to be handed the torch & have Trish lose the match for this to happen. They negatively responded to anything Trish did to shift the momentum her way as it could lead to the victory. Sure, the crowd reaction detracted from the match & what each character represents, but the crowd's involvement in a diva's match where the entire division receives no reaction at all besides anything "sex-related" was huge. What the crowd was achieving was showing how much they have been entertained throughout the feud & pointed out that Mickie James would be the future of the company. After WrestleMania, the audience went back into "normal" mode & continued to boo heel James for the rest of her villianous run. Today, she is the greatest female wrestler the WWE has who continues to gain support. If it weren't for the crowd that night to make that match seem more than it was worth, James could not have made it to the big time as quick as she did.

This may detract from the show, but it ultimately leads to an entertained audience. This is something every party involved is looking to achieve.

Reason 2) Vince says it's a bad thing.

Agreeed on the fact that this argument is a little weak. I will treat it with the same respect as you did nonetheless.

Vince McMahon knows what he is doing as the who he thinks deserves the push & who does not. One of the factors he takes into account is the crowd reaction & all of its components such as connections between fan/wrestler, heel/face reactions given to the right person & crowd appreciation for what is deemed entertaining to them. Ultimately, an entertainment business needs people who can deliver some form of entertainment on a consistent basis in this area. For any judgements to be made, you need to suppress the effects of the heel/face reactions & focus you're attention on crowd connection between fan/wrestler & crowd appreciation for entertainment. This may go against the ethics of Vince as he does look for people to be able to draw heat from the crowd if heel or garner support as a face, but how can make something work if it is not entertaining?

Let's take Shelton Benjamin for example. During his last couple of year's, the man was not able to gain anything from the crowd at all. The audience took one look at Benjamin's character & decided that he did not entertain them at all concerning character. He had little connection with the crowd & his only use for entertainment was in the matches that was on a rare occassion. Sure, he can perform heelish acts & garner face support from the crowd, but his lack of entertainment/crowd connection did not help him positively whatsoever.

So what if a heel gets cheered if he is entertaining the audience. You can't draw money from someone who does not entertain can you?

Reason 3) Because heels don't want to be cheered.

Yes, of course that is the case. I understand this that the purpose of having a heel is to draw heat from the crowd & the face is to garner support from the crowd. For the good vs. evil storyline to work, this might hold true. For the majority, the crowd plays along with the "script" and becomes emersed into cheering faces & booing heels. They hold this storyline true for the most part & if anyone steps out of line when not neccessary, the crowd & the characters will correct the situation. Nothing else I can say about this.

However, WWE has subsequently changed itself into becoming an entertainment company rather than a sports orientated company whilst still holding themselves as "sports entertainment." So, rather than the audience cheer for the team that has done everything correct instead of a team that has cheated or done dirty deeds to get to their spots, they decide to show their respects to the people in the industry that are entertaining them moreso than other wrestlers. They appreciate that the likes of Hornswoggle is entertaining on the shows by cheering for them. On the same token, there are members of the audience that agree heel Mickie James was entertaining to them.

Having the crowd cheer for a heel here isn't all that bad as it gives the management an idea as to who to give the next face spot to when the time roles around to switch wrestler's fan alignments. An example of this is Mr. Kennedy. What he did as a heel achieved an entertainment factor that the audience liked. The "skills" that he possessed at the time was sufficient enough to allow him to gain heat from the crowd & become the heel. However, as time grew on, the crowd felt they were entertained by his antics & decided to give their backing for him. Slowly but surely, the crowd's influence pushed Kennedy into the face position so he could entertain the audience, something the face was built to do.

If you are entertaining where the crowd is in sheer shock & awe for what you offer, why shouldn't they cheer for you to give an indication that you need a push to use you're entertaining skills to a much more higer or relevant position, regardless of fan alignment?

My Rebuttal For The Opponent's Rebuttal:​

Mostly accurate, but for the assertion about the kayfabe era. Kayfabe went ages ago, and wrestling has still remained built around the concept of the good guy against the bad guy. The reason being that this is what works. Kids are a massive section of the wrestling audience, and want the show to be booked round heroes. To get heroes you have to have villains, and if the villain is getting cheered then they're failing to be a villain.

- If you are failing to be a villian, then shouldn't that constitute a fan alignment change? If you are a character that seems to entertain the fans to the point where they are in agreeance with what your actions & words suggest by cheering you on as a heel, they are voicing their opinions to say that they think having the character playing the face role would become more successful.

- The kids are an essential part of the audience that gets the situation of cheering the heroes on & fulfill their job well. They help promote the good vs. evil storyline and keep the tradition alive. The older fans of the audience are there to not only do the kids role, but to show who they think deserves to be heel or face judging by each wrestlers/characters entertainment factor & expressing that in the form of cheers/boos.

What you appear to be using these three hundred words to say is that people know it's scripted... to which I respond so what. People know 24 is scripted, that changes nothing. The show is built around the concept of good vs evil, and if people are cheering for evil then it means something has gone wrong

- You say that it does not matter the show is "scripted" yet you keep insisting that the good vs. evil storyline is a major part of the show. Well, in professional wrestling having a storyline needs to be "scripted." Thus, the angles will not work as efficiently if done "on the fly" consistently.

- The show's "scripted" intentions is the concept of good vs. evil. The company's intentions is to entertain the audience. What good is it if the audience does not agree that the heel of the storyline should be a heel & cheers them on? The most effective way of letting management know of the fans thoughts is by the live audience fan reaction as they are the majority compared to the internet fans.

And the argument in there is what? Given that John Cena is the company's top draw and the best wrestler in the world, all you appear to be pointing out is that a handful of fans who want to show everyone how smart they are decided to try and spoil the atmosphere for everyone.

- The argument here is not what you suggest at all. Apart from the statement of calling John Cena the best wrestler in the world, which he is not & something for another topic, having a few people spoil the atmosphere could not be further from the truth. The crowd was merely expressing their love for what they were being presented with & felt entertained by Orton's actions. Even though he is a heel, they cheered him on as he was offering something different in these torturous situations. His character went hand-in-hand with the situation & the crowd felt it was their duty to applaud how Orton entertained them.

I'm not going to bother with your next block of text; I'll just summarise it as "fan feedback", which is the first coherent argument you've put forward. That being said, you've immediately handed me a massive weakness to exploit when you say that "the fans are the best critics". Whilst this sounds nice, it's totally untrue. What a handful of smarky twenty-somethings feel the need to shout has absolutely no baring on the wrestling audience as a whole. If that minority had been taken seriously then John Cena would have been fired years ago, instead of developing into one of the most popular wrestlers in the company. Vince already knows how to draw money from wrestling. It's the same way money's been made for the past fifty years. Good vs Evil; and they do not want people undermining that.

- If the fans are not the best critics in passing judgements on who entertains them, than who else fulfills that role? You can study & research all you want about being what the fan knows what they like as a fan & their entertainment needs being satisified, but unless you are one, you still don't have a clue.

- You say that the minority is a huge influence on the professional wrestling companies like the crowd's perceptions of a man like John Cena, yet you disagree on the minority of the audience that influences the company to switch fan alignments or feature stars more prominently because the fans seem to cheer on people who entertain them regularly. This is major exploit here that renders your argument null & void. If it weren't for the minority, John Cena would not have received the face alignment turn as quickly as he did. He entertained the audience enough where they cheered him & the company switched to keep the good vs. evil storyline alive.

Of course people cheering for the bad guy is a bad thing.

Of couse people cheering for the bad guy is not a bad thing.

 

[Gelgarin]

Bout time.

We've got huge blocks or narrative here that don't make any kind of tangible argument; so if you don't mind I'm just going to cherry pick through your post and deal with the relevant bits.

When we get to this point, this is doing everything but hurt the show. One of the most important factors of professional wrestling is the audience. If the crowd is dead, everything about that entire evening will become lackluster. Not even the match between Shawn Michaels & Undertaker could garner anything above a 4 star match rating. When the crowd is electric where the camera's are shaking from the noise, what you hear in the ring is being overtaken by the crowd & the people at home are subject to chills down their backs from the noise, it is up to the show to put on anything decent or above to achieve a 4 star rating. By having the rebellion from the crowd & the retaliation from the other audience members can attribute to the crowd becoming more electric. This gives off the impression that the crowd are being sucked into the show to believe it is real-life by displaying the passion & enthusiasm to what they are witnessing. In turn, their reactions give a sense that the match is worth something more. The atmosphere given by the audience in doing this process definitely helps the show in this regard.

If crowd noise were truly that important then Ring of Honour would be doing considerably better right now. The WWE has the tamest live audiences outside of Japan, yet is light years ahead of any other promotion in terms of success.

A hot crowd can make a show better, as long as it works together with the storyline. Similarly, a hot crowd that works against the storyline can turn a good match into a complete joke. I'd present an example to back this up, but you've already done it for me, so we'll just carry on.

However, during some certain spots of the match, the audience might appreciate what they are seeing & are completely blown away from what has happened. They intend to give the respect the spot deserves, whether it may be applause to both competitors for the execution or by a specific wrestler performing perfectly. There are situations where the heel character does so where the crowd has no choice but to give thanks as it is entertaining them.

First, there is a difference between fans cheering for a match, sand cheering for a heel. "That was awesome" is absolutely fine, and hurts nobody (provided it doesn't follow Orton punting a crippled child in the face).

However, once you get onto the grounds of the crowd specifically cheering for the heel, then you get towards what I like to call RVD syndrome.
RVD was brought into the WWE as a heel, but had no idea of how to work the style properly. He insisted on building matched around athletic high spots to try and get himself over, the result being that he could never draw heat, and was a complete miserable failure as a heel.

The WE was forced to turn his face because he couldn't get over as a heel, and when your bad guy can't get over as a bad guy, that is not a good thing.

An example of this was the Mickie James vs. Trish Stratus match at WrestleMania 22 for the WWE Women's Championship. Throughout the whole feud, the audience showed their hate towards the psychopathic James in order to will on Trish through the end & become the victor. No matter what James did, she was able to gain heat from the audience & thus fulfill her job. When it came time to have the match between the two girls that would ultimately be the match of the feud, the crowd responded postively to the newcomer James, cheering for her due to her excellent portrayal of a psychopath, offering something new to the division & being entertaining. As for Trish, the audience felt that it was time for the rookie to be handed the torch & have Trish lose the match for this to happen.

Here's the example I was waiting for. One smarky crowd turning the entire angle into a complete joke. In this particular Mickie had been interfering in matches, assaulting the divisions top face, and as memory serves even kidnapped another diva. So goes out on the biggest stage of them all, and gets a standing ovation.

Now I'm a cynical twenty year old, so I think it's funny. But if I were young, as the vast majority of wrestling fans are, then I'd have been left confused and unsatisfied by the match. In this case it was women's wrestling so nobody gave a shit, but when it happens in real match it can totally undermine the storyline that the WWE are trying to tell.

Let's take Shelton Benjamin for example. During his last couple of year's, the man was not able to gain anything from the crowd at all. The audience took one look at Benjamin's character & decided that he did not entertain them at all concerning character. He had little connection with the crowd & his only use for entertainment was in the matches that was on a rare occassion. Sure, he can perform heelish acts & garner face support from the crowd, but his lack of entertainment/crowd connection did not help him positively whatsoever.

What has Shelton Benjamin got to do with anything? Last I heard the crown never reacted to him at all.
Well, that small minority who boo Cena and Batista have an unfortunate habit of cheering for him, which just goes to further show that live crowds do not make good critics.

So what if a heel gets cheered if he is entertaining the audience. You can't draw money from someone who does not entertain can you?

Except you can't draw money from a roster of babyfaces, it's never worked. For sports entertainment to sell you need to have good guys and bad guys, and if the bad guys can't get people to boo them then the show falls apart.
If a heel gets cheered then it means their character is not working, and usually when something stops working it is considered to be a bad thing.

Yes, of course that is the case. I understand this that the purpose of having a heel is to draw heat from the crowd & the face is to garner support from the crowd. For the good vs. evil storyline to work, this might hold true.

Thankyou. You've pretty much conceded that argument here. Let me quote you again.

the purpose of having a heel is to draw heat from the crowd

That is what heels are for. If they're not doing that then they're not doing their job, and that's a bad thing. If Orton, Edge and Jerecho were getting cheered all the time then the WWE would have nobody to build a program around, and wouldn't be able to make money. It's really that simple.

Having the crowd cheer for a heel here isn't all that bad as it gives the management an idea as to who to give the next face spot to when the time roles around to switch wrestler's fan alignments.

Having the crowd cheer a heel shows that they're not working as a heel. If it happens to one guy then it's not ideal, but can be easily remedied by a shift in gimmick or alignment. If it happens a lot then it shows that your product has got major problems, and is a very bad thing.
Something not working the way its supposed to is never a good thing.

If you are failing to be a villian, then shouldn't that constitute a fan alignment change? If you are a character that seems to entertain the fans to the point where they are in agreeance with what your actions & words suggest by cheering you on as a heel, they are voicing their opinions to say that they think having the character playing the face role would become more successful.

And then what? Those douche bag fans are going to cheer for the heels regardless, and once you turn them all face you don't have a product.

The kids are an essential part of the audience that gets the situation of cheering the heroes on & fulfill their job well. They help promote the good vs. evil storyline and keep the tradition alive. The older fans of the audience are there to not only do the kids role, but to show who they think deserves to be heel or face judging by each wrestlers/characters entertainment factor & expressing that in the form of cheers/boos.

Except the kids (and their parents) massively outnumber the smarks in terms of the TV and PPV audience. There is a reason that the WWE doesn't book for the internet wrestling community, and that reason is because there's hardly any of us.
On the whole people on the internet hove no idea what draws in professional wrestling. If Vince booked based on those people's voices then Shelton Benjamin would have defeated John Cena in a 60 minute iron man match long ago, and nobody would have paid to watch it.

You say that it does not matter the show is "scripted" yet you keep insisting that the good vs. evil storyline is a major part of the show. Well, in professional wrestling having a storyline needs to be "scripted." Thus, the angles will not work as efficiently if done "on the fly" consistently.

Seriously, either I've suddenly gotten dumber, or you need to put some serious work into delivering a coherent point, because once again I don't have a clue what you're on about.

Everyone watching wrestling knows that it's fake... but then everyone watching anything on TV knows that it's fake. The point is allowing a viewer to suspend disbelief, which is difficult to do in the face of ridiculous crowd reactions.

The argument here is not what you suggest at all. Apart from the statement of calling John Cena the best wrestler in the world, which he is not & something for another topic, having a few people spoil the atmosphere could not be further from the truth. The crowd was merely expressing their love for what they were being presented with & felt entertained by Orton's actions. Even though he is a heel, they cheered him on as he was offering something different in these torturous situations. His character went hand-in-hand with the situation & the crowd felt it was their duty to applaud how Orton entertained them.

Well... Cena is the most successful wrester in the world today. I didn't think anybody on this forum was dumb enough to argue against that any more.

You say that the minority is a huge influence on the professional wrestling companies like the crowd's perceptions of a man like John Cena, yet you disagree on the minority of the audience that influences the company to switch fan alignments or feature stars more prominently because the fans seem to cheer on people who entertain them regularly. This is major exploit here that renders your argument null & void. If it weren't for the minority, John Cena would not have received the face alignment turn as quickly as he did. He entertained the audience enough where they cheered him & the company switched to keep the good vs. evil storyline alive.

Once again, 'what the fuck are you on about?' comes to mind as an apt response. John Cena is the best face in the world of professional wrestling. That's pretty much indisputable and totally irrelevant. We're talking about heels and the effects of fans cheering them.
I've already explained that this undermines the product, complicates the booking and shows that the heel is not functioning in his roll.
There is a reason why the WWE has never tried to make serious money out of Cena as a heel, because he is too entertaining to make it work.

Heels are supposed to get booed.
If you can't get booed then you are a bad heel.
Having a bad heel is bad for business.
Heels getting cheered is a bad thing.

How about instead of pages on incomprehensible drivel, you explain to me exactly which part of the above you do not understand.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

It seems like the seven days of work & having final's matches with all high-profile Australians sports have started to take its toll, the reasoning behind not posting as fast as my opponent.

May I say that the only way to combat an aggressive offense, is with aggressive defense. As the best defence is a good offense, so I will not be the more on the offensive. Also, at the cheap shot about my huge chunkings, may I reply back that I would rather include some more descriptive information than frequently spell words incorrectly. How do you spell someones name wrong when its present when you check through my works? Please, let's keep this debate specific as I am enjoying this too much.

If crowd noise where truly that important then Ring of Honour would be doing considerably better right now. The WWE has the tamest live audiences outside of Japan, yet is light years ahead of any other promotion in terms of success.

A hot crowd can make a show better, as long as it works together with the storyline. Similarly, a hot crowd that works against the storyline can turn a good match into a complete joke. I'd present an example to back this up, but you've already done it for me, so we'll just carry on.

ROH is your example? That's as weak as you're "Vince says its bad" argument. Have you seen the arena's these guys fill compared to the likes of the WWE? They are nowhere near the size that WWE seems to fill week in, week out. The crowds that TNA & ROH draw are ravenous & avid fans of the alternative wrestling, where they are consistently hot. WWE fans are completely different as it attracts & appeals to tame fans as you stated, which varies in audiences & who is on the card that appeals to them. The audiences in ROH & TNA seem to be in favour of what the wrestlers themselves provide where the WWE fans abide more to the rules of heel/face alignment & fan expression. The point I make is what you use in your defense?

Hot crowds is a factor of making the show overall better. There is nothing else that can be added to this. The show is entertaining the live audience enough to get them so excited & getting a step closer in sending home satisfies customers from the ticket purchase. Thus, the WWE gain a good report with the fans & people spread the word about how good the product was. This is one factor that leads to entertaining audiences & drawing money for the business. Does it matter if the WWE sacrifices storyline structure in order to gain money & send home happy customers? It is like the James vs. Stratus match. A heel James was being cheered over the face Stratus. The audience did not detract from the match as this is considered to be one of the greatest diva matches ever to take place & did nothing but elevate both Trish/Mickie with the crowd being entertained.

First, there is a difference between fans cheering for a match, sand cheering for a heel. "That was awesome" is absolutely fine, and hurts nobody (provided it doesn't follow Orton punting a crippled child in the face).

However, once you get onto the grounds of the crowd specifically cheering for the heel, then you get towards what I like to call RVD syndrome.
RVD was brought into the WWE as a heel, but had no idea of how to work the style properly. He insisted on building matched around athletic high spots to try and get himself over, the result being that he could never draw heat, and was a complete miserable failure as a heel.

The WE was forced to turn his face because he couldn't get over as a heel, and when your bad guy can't get over as a bad guy, that is not a good thing.

1) First point is correct, nothing to debate here. I do find it humourous that Randy Orton is used as the example though.

2) There is a term used in the science world that I like to bring up: "There is no such thing as a failed experiment." Considering that professional wrestling characters require psychology, which is a science, I figured this will come into play. Rob Van Dam did not do very well for himself in establishing himself as a heel. However, what does this mean when he gets cheered for the most part? It is a clear indication by the people buying you're product that the wrestler would benefit more from being a face. So, they made the switch & RVD continued to entertain the fans contributing in Vince drawing money. This ultimately ended up as a good thing stemming from a bad thing. Not a bad move by the crowd in deciding his fate all because they went against the "traditional" boo all heels no matter what understanding.

Here's the example I was waiting for. One smarky crowd turning the entire angle into a complete joke. In this particular Mickie had been interfering in matches, assaulting the divisions top face, and as memory serves even kidnapped another diva. So goes out on the biggest stage of them all, and gets a standing ovation.

Now I'm a cynical twenty year old, so I think it's funny. But if I were young, as the vast majority of wrestling fans are, then I'd have been left confused and unsatisfied by the match. In this case it was women's wrestling so nobody gave a shit, but when it happens in real match it can totally undermine the storyline that the WWE are trying to tell.

I love how you contradict yourself. You say that no-one gives a damn about women's wrestling yet calling the standing ovation that Mickie received alongside the massive heat Trish garnered a failure? This crowd reaction did absolute wonders for the division that seemingly does nothing, created Mickie James into becoming one of the best ever solidifying herself with the crowd & entertained the audience. This match was considered one of the best on the card, so I can assume that this drew something for Vince. If it weren't for the crowd showing their support for the torch passing to Mickie from Trish, this might not have been taken as well as it did when Mickie became the face of the division.

Let me devulge my personal experiences. I have not been a womens wrestling fan since I first started. Hell, I was one who viewed them as eye candy & a toilet break during the show. Nothing these women did pleased me in the ring & I was continuely dissatisfied by the division even going to the lengths some suggest by ridding them. The first time I ever felt satisfied by anything WWE Diva related in a wrestling match was in this match between Mickie & Trish. I was amazed by the match & bought the WrestleMania 22 DVD only because of this match. Ever since, I have expanded my knowledge & poured my money into quite a few things womens wrestling related. So, as the average wrestling fan watching this match, I was indeed entertained & the WWE satisfied its purpose, regardless of storyline intentions.

What has Shelton Benjamin got to do with anything? Last I heard the crown never reacted to him at all.
Well, that small minority who boo Cena and Batista have an unfortunate habit of cheering for him, which just goes to further show that live crowds do not make good critics.

To the audience, Shelton did not entertain them. So, they delivered a dead reaction to him showing their opinions about a man whose character has nothing to connect with. So, how can you make someone a heel to gain boo's when they can't draw if their life depended on it? The only thing Shelton got was praise for his matches by the crowd in the form of applause & cheers directed a Shelton. So, the right thing to do was to make him turn face as he seems to get more cheers than boos nowadays. Go check the ECW episode when Shelton got attacked by Sheamus or the time he had multiple matches with Yoshi Tatsu. The crowd gave him a decent reaction & felt what he did entertained them.

Live audiences are there to be entertained. If they the show does this, they will cheer/applause for who they think satisfies them the most. If something or someone on the show isn't doing anything, it will be met with boos/dead reaction. If you send home unsatisfied customers, you have lost your business. You can't say to the customer that their opinions are wrong as what you are trying to achieve from them will dissipate. Who else will judge the company's product via an objective format within the wrestling community that isn't involved with the business?

Except you can't draw money from a roster of babyfaces, it's never worked. For sports entertainment to sell you need to have good guys and bad guys, and if the bad guys can't get people to boo them then the show falls apart.
If a heel gets cheered then it means their character is not working, and usually when something stops working it is considered to be a bad thing.

Who said anything about a roster full of babyfaces? There are wrestlers out there that are better suited to being heels & gain heat from the crowd than others. The team of Jerishow or the Hart Dynasty are examples of those that consistently gain heat on a major basis outside of their hometowns. They know what is going on & can do so. They do get the odd cheer here and there, but this is more of a sign of respect shown from the audience in direct relation of the heel wrestlers entertainment ability. Remember Gelgarin, this is a debate about whether a cheer for a heel is a bad thing. Nothing plural is involved. So, by having a for a bad guy will not completely derail the show from its tracks. The show will ultimately benefit from the show in the long run as proven many times & won't hurt anything. I refer to the previous Orton/Cena & James/Stratus matches as to which I have stated before.

Thankyou. You've pretty much conceded that argument here. Let me quote you again.

Mocking me? Not a good move Gelgarin. I simply agreed about the purpose of the heel in professional wrestling. I understand this completely & will admit this. However, this is ultimately up to the fans to decide if they would like to swallow certain wrestlers as heels or faces by showing what they really think. If the crowd is entertained by a heel as a heel feeling that they should continue as a heel, they will boo them. If not, expect some cheers to come their way to influence a face turn as the crowd feels that they could be better suited for a face run. For a while, Edge was gaining cheers as the crowd decided that it was time for him to turn face. With the Edge/Jericho storyline, this was supposed to happen. Punk & Jericho's return were not welcomed in open arms fully as faces as there were some sections of the audience not giving a care about them were some people booed them. What happened? They became heels & are now successful in their endeavours as the crowd is entertained by their heel runs continuing to show hatred towards them.

Having the crowd cheer a heel shows that they're not working as a heel. If it happens to one guy then it's not ideal, but can be easily remedied by a shift in gimmick or alignment.

Thankyou. You've pretty much conceded that argument here. Where did I hear that before? There are a couple of paragraphs that follow but I have already addressed these issues before in detail multiple times that it would lead me to repeat myself, despite the fact that it is contained somewhere in my "big scary chunks" that you are too afraid or lazy to read.

I have been reading what you quote me on as incorrect. You are merely picking on anything that could possibly validate your points further without addressing everything you have said. I, have rebuttaled everything you post despite how difficult it may be to rebuttal back. A good debator will try to prove everything the other person says as wrong or discuss something that was correct to tune it into a new point about the debate.

And then what? Those douche bag fans are going to cheer for the heels regardless, and once you turn them all face you don't have a product.

Not true. If you are doing you're role correctly in the eyes of the fans, they will support the good vs. evil storyline by cheering the faces & booing the faces. If they feel otherwise, they will voice their opinions otherwise. Do realise that there are heels that do this properly like Jericho, Hart Dynasty & Legacy [Rhodes/DiBiase] on a regular basis.

Except the kids (and their parents) massively outnumber the smarks in terms of the TV and PPV audience. There is a reason that the WWE doesn't book for the internet wrestling community, and that reason is because there's hardly any of us.
On the whole people on the internet hove no idea what draws in professional wrestling. If Vince booked based on those people's voices then Shelton Benjamin would have defeated John Cena in a 60 minute iron man match long ago, and nobody would have paid to watch it.

What does this contribute? It is a stupid move to cater to the internet fans, they are a minority. In saying this, the average fan & the internet fan are two completely different sections. Wrestling companies would much rather listen to the minority of their average fans than listen to the IWC. So, if the average fan sees something wrong with having a character as a heel as they feel they should be face where a pattern emerges on a regular basis with more support being garnered by the audience via cheering to change the alignment, I would think the company would listen as they are a part of the majority of the wrestling community.

Seriously, either I've suddenly gotten dumber, or you need to put some serious work into delivering a coherent point, because once again I don't have a clue what you're on about.

Everyone watching wrestling knows that it's fake... but then everyone watching anything on TV knows that it's fake. The point is allowing a viewer to suspend disbelief, which is difficult to do in the face of ridiculous crowd reactions.

From what we are arguing, you have gotten dumber. Or you do not have the coherency to understand the serious work that I am delivering, because I still have no clue why you keep giving me malnutritioned-points with little details. Unlike you however, I understand as I am able to comeback at you about everything you have said.

You say kayfabe is out the window yet you say crowds must be suspended in disbelief with wrestlers & how they are aligned with the fans. The average is smarter as of now & will continue to expand in knoledge. Yes, they know it is fake & therefore look at the business as more of an objective observer. The average fan can look at the show & describe to you as an objective observer in support for the business

Well... Cena is the most successful wrester in the world today. I didn't think anybody on this forum was dumb enough to argue against that any more.

So you change the statement on me? You said he was the best professional wrestler in the world today, which this was not true, then go to he is the most successful in the world today, which is more accurate. Outside Undertaker's#1Fan, there is no-one who would argue that point. Get your facts straight first before making a shot or claim such as this. Oh, I never said Cena sucks because I feel as an objective viewer he doesn't.

I've already explained that this undermines the product, complicates the booking and shows that the heel is not functioning in his roll.
There is a reason why the WWE has never tried to make serious money out of Cena as a heel, because he is too entertaining to make it work.

Heels are supposed to get booed.
If you can't get booed then you are a bad heel.
Having a bad heel is bad for business.
Heels getting cheered is a bad thing.

How about instead of pages on incomprehensible drivel, you explain to me exactly which part of the above you do not understand.

1) I know what we are talking about & what you posted. Hence why I am replying in this debate.

2) You proved my point yet again about the heels turning face. The crowd cheered him when he was heel as they felt that he deserved something better than being a heel & it worked. So, the business made a lot of money from the initial crowd being defiant & is now entertaining many people around the world. So, Cena's role is done.

3) At least my drivel can be varied & contains detail, essential in a debate. In a debate, I can't agree with everything you sai nor can you. We must defend our side to the best of our abilities. However, I advise you to take those eye-flaps over you're head to make you become something more than seeing in tunnel-vision & be able to comprehend every possible aspect that can go into something.

 

[Gelgarin]

It seems like the seven days of work & having final's matches with all high-profile Australians sports have started to take its toll, the reasoning behind not posting as fast as my opponent.

Given the amount of everyone's time you manage to waste in the bar room, I'm going to interpret this as you trying to sneak the final post at the last minute.
Didn't work.

How do you spell someones name wrong when its present when you check through my works?

It's chiefly facilitated by what is known in the medical profession as "not giving a flying fuck".

ROH is your example? That's as weak as you're "Vince says its bad" argument. Have you seen the arena's these guys fill compared to the likes of the WWE? They are nowhere near the size that WWE seems to fill week in, week out.

You said that a hot crowd benefited the show. I showed that the most successful wrestling promotions in the world had the most sedate crowds (we can tack the big Japanese promotions onto this argument if you'd like), effectively proving your argument to be void.
Conversely, the promotions that have permanently hot crowds but can't get the fans to cheer the faces and boo the heels (RoH and TNA) constantly struggle to sell PPVs.

Does it matter if the WWE sacrifices storyline structure in order to gain money & send home happy customers?

Yes. Because it won't sell merchandise or PPVs. Which is how the WWE makes it money. Thanks to Slyfox for the information.

Last year the WWE made $335,000,000 (Almost 65% of its total revenue) from pay-per-views and merchandise sales.
The average crowd to a live event numbers 6,000 people, compared to the 400,000 who will pay to watch on TV.
I think this pretty clearly shows where the WWE's focus should be set.

You say it's fine for the WWE to fuck story lines and face/heel dynamics if it gets over with the live crowd,

Does it matter if the WWE sacrifices storyline structure in order to gain money & send home happy customers?

but it's the story lines that get people to buy the pay-per-views. It's the baby faces who move the most merchandise (It's well known that John Cena, Ray Mysterio and DX are the best moving items) and the baby faces require the heels to draw heat in order for them to get over.

So yes. It does matter if the WWE fucks it's own booking to send the crowd home happy.

Rob Van Dam did not do very well for himself in establishing himself as a heel. However, what does this mean when he gets cheered for the most part?

It means he's a shit heel. It means the baby face who's supposed to be getting over isn't, because RVD isn't doing his job. It means to program that RVD is working isn't going to get over, and people aren't going to pay to see it's conclusion. It means that the WWE is essentially going to be forced to turn RVD face, and turn someone else heel to maintain the balance.
The WE is already juggling a dozen story lines at all time, and they do not want to have to keep dropping them because one of the workers can't do his job properly.

RVD went on to do OK as a face, which you described as;

a good thing stemming from a bad thing.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Let the record show that Falcon just conceded that a heel getting cheered was a bad thing.

Let's look at the question again.

If a heel gets a cheer, is it bad?

Yep. Looks like I've won. Might as well go for a post match beat down.

This match was considered one of the best on the card, so I can assume that this drew something for Vince.

Let me get this straight. You think that Trish Stratus against Mickie James was one of the best matches at Wrestlemania 22? Personally I think most people, when considering the best match on the card, would be more inclined to go for the Money in the Bank Match, or Edge and Foley having one of the best brawls in history, or Michael's match with Vince that was PWI match of the year, or the company's top baby face defeating the company's top heel in the main event.
Those drew money. Trish/Mickie was an opportunity to visit the bathroom.
Not that any of this is remotely relevant to the debate, I'm just bringing it up because you said something stupid.

To the audience, Shelton did not entertain them. So, they delivered a dead reaction to him showing their opinions about a man whose character has nothing to connect with.

This gives me an idea. Your logic is that heels being shit at their job is a good thing, because it shows that they should be given a different job. Can we extend this to prove that wrestlers not getting any reaction at all is also good, because it shows that they need to be repackaged? That's essentially the same argument isn't it?

Live audiences are there to be entertained. If they the show does this, they will cheer/applause for who they think satisfies them the most. If something or someone on the show isn't doing anything, it will be met with boos/dead reaction. If you send home unsatisfied customers, you have lost your business.

Except I've allready shown you that the WWE's business is in PPV's and merchandise. If you add up everyone in America who attended a WWE show live in 2008 (Including house shows), you get approximately the same number of people who ordered Wrestlemania that year.
242 live events probably cost more to put on, and deliver less revenue than a single PPV, so you probably shouldn't undermine your business based on them.

So, by having a [cheer?] for a bad guy will not completely derail the show from its tracks.

This is true. I think it was also true when I pointed it out last post. As a singular event it's a bad thing, not a disaster, but still a bad thing. It shows that one guy isn't getting over probably, and has to be accommodated for.

If one guy picks up an injury it's a bad thing. Not a disaster. It shows that one guy can't work for a while and has to be accommodated for. Same principle. Part of the show stops working, and things not working is a bad thing.

Mocking me? Not a good move Gelgarin.

I was trying to follow your example.

I simply agreed about the purpose of the heel in professional wrestling. I understand this completely & will admit this. However, this is ultimately up to the fans to decide if they would like to swallow certain wrestlers as heels or faces by showing what they really think.

And if a heel can't make the crowd swallow his character then he's not good at his job. Bad heel. Bad thing. Simple.

For a while, Edge was gaining cheers as the crowd decided that it was time for him to turn face.

Edge was getting cheered for years, which is why the WWE had to keep pulling stuff the Vickie Guerrero to keep him over as a heel. They turned him face simply because he got injured, not because of some sudden shift in crowd response.
You asked who said anything about a roster of baby faces. You did. If you think the WWE would be smart to turn anyone who get's a reaction similar to Edge face then we'd have face Orton, face Jericho, and face Punk. Big Show can't feud with everyone at the same time.

Not true. If you are doing you're role correctly in the eyes of the fans, they will support the good vs. evil storyline by cheering the faces & booing the faces.

Another concession there I think. Obviously your inability to make sense hurts the quote slightly (you meant to type heels instead of faces the second time right?) but you've pretty much admitted that if heels are doing their job properly they should be trying to generate heat. If they're generating cheers then they're not doing their job properly, and I still don't have a handle on why you think somebody failing at their job is a bad thing.

What does this contribute? It is a stupid move to cater to the internet fans, they are a minority.

Exactly, so when the IWC starts cheering Orton to show how smart they are it's a bad thing.
You know you're supposed to be on the other side right.

From what we are arguing, you have gotten dumber. Or you do not have the coherency to understand the serious work that I am delivering, because I still have no clue why you keep giving me malnutritioned-points with little details. Unlike you however, I understand as I am able to comeback at you about everything you have said.

Right. Before you get too far into the petty bitching, I suggest you go look up the words coherency (which you used in completely the wrong context), rebuttaled (which isn't even a real word) and anything else you crowbarred into your walls of text to try and sound intellectual.
My spelling might not be perfect, and I care very little what your name is, but I try to avoid both the writing and reading of nonsense. Which is why I've trimmed large gratuitous chunks off of your posts.

You say kayfabe is out the window yet you say crowds must be suspended in disbelief with wrestlers & how they are aligned with the fans.

Yes. Exactly like every other fictitious television show in the past twenty years. Is this really that hard to understand?

So you change the statement on me? You said he was the best professional wrestler in the world today, which this was not true, then go to he is the most successful in the world today, which is more accurate.

I'd say success is a pretty good barometer of ability.

Now, nothing else in this post is worth reading. Thus far you still haven't explained why heels failing to do their job is a good thing. That being the case, I'm just going to round off with last posts argument.

Heels are supposed to get booed.
If you can't get booed then you are a bad heel.
Having a bad heel is bad for business.
Heels getting cheered is a bad thing.

Falcon's entire counterarguments can be boiled down to;

a) Gelgarin is correct, it's a bad thing. But it's not a very bad thing, so I should still win.

b) Heels failing to do their job means that they should become faces, which is apparently a good thing.

and

c) Sulk that Gelgarin won't separately pick apart twelve different lines of text all making the same argument.

That's it. I'm probably over the deadline by now, but that's because Falcon waited so long to post. I think we're through. Bring on Savage Taker.

 

[Mr. TM]

Clarity: Gelgarin is so pretty. Well laid out posts, that cut right to the point. Studied Thomas Paine?

Punctuality: Falkon was late twice, Gelgarin was late once. You do the math. Dont forget to carry the 1 point Gelgarin

Informative: *claps* Not to doubt you Falkon, but Gelgarin is pretty proven around this part. but I must say, you did a good job coming at this debate from a different angle. You deserve this point.

Emotion: Gelgarin gets this point again and again. How can he be stopped? We shall see. I am sure he'll be in the playoffs.

Persuasion: Interesting debate. in wrestling's mainstream, we have had Anti-heros, heels that are pumped by the IWC, heels that are cool to love, faces that get little reaction and so forth. But should it be this way? Falkon argued strongly on one side, and Gelgarin argued better on the other side. I am coming out agreeing that the status quo should be kept.

TM scores it Gelgarin 4, Falkon 1.

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Gelgarin started out well, highlighting each point. FalKon's was good, but not as clear in terms of points trying to be made.

Point: Gelgarin

Punctuality: What TM said.

Point: Gelgarin

Informative: FalKon had his work cut out for him against the stout Gelgarin. I'll give him this point with good information and a good fight.

Point: FalKon

Emotionality: I just love how Gelgarin goes after his opponents, cutting down each post, but not going too far with it.

Point: Gelgarin

Persuasion: Cheering heels is really not that good of a thing to happen. It is like in real life, are you going to cheer someone who just hacked a family or person you didn't like, just because you didn't like that person? Leave it the way it is, heels get booed.

Point: Gelgarin

CH David scores this Gelgarin 4, FalKon 1.

 

[Miko]

Clarity: Gelgarin as usual was easy to read

Point: Gelgarin

Punctuality: Gelgarin

Point: Gelgarin

Informative: Gelgarin had the more and better information here

Point: Gelgarin

Emotionality: Gelgarin has a funny side, this gets him the point here

Point: Gelgarin

Persuasion: Gelgarin was the more convincing of the two

Point: Gelgarin

This round is as

Falkon - 0
Gelgarin - 5

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Debate - FalKon, space things out a bit next time. You seemed like a sanitation worker when you made your first full-length argument *that is to say, you just dumped out a lot of information without taking the time to see how it fit into your overall argumentative strategy). Also, don't be lazy: use "and," not the ampersand.

Point: Gelgarin

Punctuality - Read TM's post.

Point: Gelgarin

Informative - You did bring a lot of information, FalKon, I can't deny this.

Point: FalKon

Emotionality - Both of you were pretty evenly matched here. I'll split the point.

Point: Split

Persuasion - Gelgarin, I expected a little bit of ingenuity on your part. But, you gave us the same old and tired arguments about why the audience shouldn't cheer heels; kayfabe is an extremely outdated concept, and, frankly, if WWE gets pissed at fans cheering heels, then maybe they should do something about being more creative or making their faces more interesting than blocks of cheese. FalKon, you were able to overcome Gelgarin's argument nicely, and you made some pretty good points yourself.

Point: FalKon

tdigle's Score

FalKon - 2.5
Gelgarin - 2.5