Week 5: Franchize1990 -versus- Tastycles

Mr. TM

Throwing a tantrum
Should Ring Of Honor incorporate more entertainment aspects in their program?

Tastycles is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
 
Ring of Honor: Fine the Way it Is

In many of America's eyes, and to some around the world, Ring of Honor (ROH) is considered as the top Indy wrestling promotion around. Some argue that in order for ROH to get better, they should incorporate more entertainment aspects in their program. Here are a few reasons why ROH should NOT change that aspect.

Quality of Matches

Ring of Honor has somewhat of a reputation of putting on great matches consistently as of late. Matches like the four way dance between Nigel McGuinness, Bryan Danielson, Claudio Castagnoli, and Tyler Black at Death Before Dishonor VI, Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson at Rising Above, and the tag match between the Muscle Outlawz and Typhoon at Supercard Of Honor III are talked about as some of the top matches from 2008. To see matches of this quality consistently, they need to keep the show the way it is. Adding more of an entertainment aspect to the show would hurt the quality of matches because the more entertainment you add, the more they would have to take away from the actual wrestling.

Individuality

ROH is known for its pure wrestling and no real soap opera storyline. Also, there's no over the top pyro or any big fancy arena that they needed to fill. This separates Ring of Honor from most Indy wrestling shows and the two national promotions that we have. If they were to add more entertainment to their show, not only do they lose their reputation as a pure wrestling promotion but, they start to become a cheap TNA rip-off or a wannna be WWE.

Economy

The financial differences between Ring of Honor and other companies such as the WWE is a very noticeable thing. The need to use more entertainment will cost more and more money the longer they try to stay afloat, money that ROH doesn't have despite the $22.5 million backing a Cody Reeves has given the promotion (Lordsofpain.com). If they incorporate more entertainment, it also means more gimmick matches that would again take away from some great matches and would probably include more matches that would involve more steel cages and more weapons. ROH is also known for their stars leaving for more money or better recognition. CM Punk and Samoa Joe going to the WWE and TNA respectively, and most recently Brian Danielson moving from ROH to the WWE. Adding more entertainment betters the chances that the wrestlers who get noticed become more popular, gain a big ego, and ask for money that ROH can't afford, which would result in a higher rate of wrestlers leaving for the bigger promotions.

In conclusion, Ring of Honor doesn't need to incorporate more entertainment aspects into their program as they are doing just fine and would be better off without it.
 
In many of America's eyes, and to some around the world, Ring of Honor (ROH) is considered as the top Indy wrestling promotion around. Some argue that in order for ROH to get better, they should incorporate more entertainment aspects in their program. Here are a few reasons why ROH should NOT change that aspect.

But what is an independent these days? There was a time, when the NWA, AWA and WWF were in full swing that being an independent promotion meant something. Even in the 90s, with the juggernaughts that were WWF and WCW being an independent promotion that anybody cared about was well donw. Nowadays, to be an indy you essentially have to not be WWE. I don't know when TNA stopped being an "indy", but it seems to be when people started to care about it, in which case the world's greatest indy appears to be as prestigious a title as world's tallest dwarf.


Quality of Matches

Ring of Honor has somewhat of a reputation of putting on great matches consistently as of late. Matches like the four way dance between Nigel McGuinness, Bryan Danielson, Claudio Castagnoli, and Tyler Black at Death Before Dishonor VI, Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson at Rising Above, and the tag match between the Muscle Outlawz and Typhoon at Supercard Of Honor III are talked about as some of the top matches from 2008.

Rated as the top matches by who exactly? The 1,000 people that have seen them on DVD or the 5 people who were there? If you asked 80% of the wrestling audience what their best match of 2008 was, they'd say a WWE match. Of the other 20%, 19% would say a TNA match, leaving the 1% of people to bicker over matches in AAA, Japan and ROH.

To see matches of this quality consistently, they need to keep the show the way it is. Adding more of an entertainment aspect to the show would hurt the quality of matches because the more entertainment you add, the more they would have to take away from the actual wrestling.

The quality of matches is irrelevant if nobody gets to see him. The matches I used to have on Griff Rhys Jones' trampoline could have been as good as Savage vs Steamboat, but if nobody sees them, it doesn't help the product in any way, shape or form.

A good wrestling promotion can balance entertainment and good in ring entertainment. Dave Melzer, the kind of guy who rates those ROH matches has awarded The Undertaker 2 thirds of the amount of 5 star matches that he as awarded the entire ROH promotion. A deadman in a hat doesn't exactly scream realistic competition does it? The Undertaker is all about entertainment, and the fact that he has almost single handedly had more good matches as the entire ROH roster, according to Melzer, should show that entertainment can have a place in good matches.

Individuality

ROH is known for its pure wrestling and no real soap opera storyline. Also, there's no over the top pyro or any big fancy arena that they needed to fill. This separates Ring of Honor from most Indy wrestling shows and the two national promotions that we have. If they were to add more entertainment to their show, not only do they lose their reputation as a pure wrestling promotion but, they start to become a cheap TNA rip-off or a wannna be WWE.

You can be individual and have entertainment. Compare the WWF product to the WCW product in 1996 and you will find very little in common. Compare ECW, which had entertainment and soap opera storylines in abundance, and you have a product that was far removed from the mainstream at the time.

The Ring of Honor "way" has already failed. When the company started, there was no faces and heels, and people competed "for the competition". However, nobody is remotely interested in a fake physical competition, so they changed the rules a little. They brought in heels and faces and begun to have DQ endings. If anything ROH just looks like a company that is too crap to afford pyro rather than one which is trying to find a new way.

Economy

The financial differences between Ring of Honor and other companies such as the WWE is a very noticeable thing. The need to use more entertainment will cost more and more money the longer they try to stay afloat, money that ROH doesn't have despite the $22.5 million backing a Cody Reeves has given the promotion (Lordsofpain.com). If they incorporate more entertainment, it also means more gimmick matches that would again take away from some great matches and would probably include more matches that would involve more steel cages and more weapons.

This is ridiculous. TNA and ROH started at the same time from similar backgrounds. For a while, they were on level pegging. Now, TNA is on national TV, iMPACT is watched more than one of the WWE's shows and the company makes a profit.

Meanwhile, ROH finds itself on an obscure network that most people don't have and most people don't watch. The company is haemorrhaging money left, right and centre and they can't fill the Hammerstein Ballroom while TNA are filling Wembley Arena. The difference is that TNA are giving the public what they want, and ROH aren't.
ROH is also known for their stars leaving for more money or better recognition. CM Punk and Samoa Joe going to the WWE and TNA respectively, and most recently Brian Danielson moving from ROH to the WWE. Adding more entertainment betters the chances that the wrestlers who get noticed become more popular, gain a big ego, and ask for money that ROH can't afford, which would result in a higher rate of wrestlers leaving for the bigger promotions.

So making your wrestlers more popular is a bad thing? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, now does it? If ROH's wrestlers become entertaining, then people are more likely to pay to see them, which means ROH can reach the dizzy heights of having 1,000 people in attendence and then be able to afford to pay their talent. When TNA and ROH started, they basically shared a roster. One of them went the entertainment way and plundered the talent pool, the other didn't and now has D'Lo Brown and Jerry Lynn compared to TNA's Sting and Mick Foley.

In conclusion, Ring of Honor doesn't need to incorporate more entertainment aspects into their program as they are doing just fine and would be better off without it.

ROH are doing just fine. Oh wait. No. No that's not what this says at all said:
Distant third promotion Ring of Honor is experiencing some financial difficulty not too unlike the original ECW, in the sense that checks are beginning to bounce.

The first sign of a problem came when Cary Silkin removed long time internet darling booker Gabe Sapolsky in order to refresh the product for a wider audience. Unfortunately DVD sales have seen a drop since the change (although they were dropping before) and the PPVs and HDNet TV show have done next to nothing to help the company.

Although the depth of the financial trouble is not yet known, ROH will need to find either a new way to monetize their current product or a new avenue to promote it. The only other option would be to downsize and do low budget shows for their core audience.

That story was published 10 days ago.


In short, throughout the history of wrestling, the ones who focus on soley the wrestling end up being left behind (AWA, NWA) and the ones who focus on being an entertainment sideshow also do (WCW). The promotions that have flourished are the ones that found the correct balance. The WWF has shown us time and again that it is possible to have fantastic wrestling matches on cards that have entertainment only shows. Lets not forget that an hour after Shawn Michaels beat Chris Jericho in one of the matches of the decade, two men with an average age of 54 had a street fight. 54,000 people were in attendance that night and another 620,000 paid to watch it at home. ROH don't even have 1% of that kind of audience for their PPVs, which is pathetic.

Wrestling used to be able to survive on the in ring competition alone, but that was when boxing was the only other in ring sport and the layman thought that wrestling was real. Nobody now thinks that, and MMA is here to stay. Given the choice between a fake fight at face value and a real one, 99.99% of the world would go for the real one. However, if you get comedy and drama from the fake fight, the product becomes less one dimensional. This essentially means that ROH can either continue down the path it is on to bankruptcy, or admit that their model is a failure and move onwards and upwards with an entertaining product and get people tuning in. Otherwise, they cannot survive.
 
The quality of matches is irrelevant if nobody gets to see him. The matches I used to have on Griff Rhys Jones' trampoline could have been as good as Savage vs. Steamboat, but if nobody sees them, it doesn't help the product in any way, shape or form.

ROH isn't trying to be the next big wrestling promotion. They have steadily gained new fans by staying the way they are. Only if they are trying to compete with some other company like the WWE or TNA for ratings should they try to incorporate more entertainment. Seeing how that isn't likely to happen anytime soon, there is no reason to drastically change anything up.

A good wrestling promotion can balance entertainment and good in ring entertainment. Dave Melzer, the kind of guy who rates those ROH matches has awarded The Undertaker 2 thirds of the amount of 5 star matches that he as awarded the entire ROH promotion. A deadman in a hat doesn't exactly scream realistic competition does it? The Undertaker is all about entertainment, and the fact that he has almost single handedly had more good matches as the entire ROH roster, according to Melzer, should show that entertainment can have a place in good matches.

Entertainment does have a place in wrestling and ROH gives their fans a different kind of entertainment. One that feels unique compared to your typical WWE or TNA type of entertainment. And Taker is not all about entertainment. He is a great wrestler as well as an entertainer. His 5 star matches are probably rated that high due to his great wrestling ability and not because he is a "deadman in a hat".

You can be individual and have entertainment. Compare the WWF product to the WCW product in 1996 and you will find very little in common. Compare ECW, which had entertainment and soap opera storylines in abundance, and you have a product that was far removed from the mainstream at the time.

The Ring of Honor "way" has already failed. When the company started, there was no faces and heels, and people competed "for the competition". However, nobody is remotely interested in a fake physical competition, so they changed the rules a little. They brought in heels and faces and begun to have DQ endings. If anything ROH just looks like a company that is too crap to afford pyro rather than one which is trying to find a new way.

ECW was the first promotion to drop in the Monday Night Wars because the majority of the wrestling fans wanted to see real, pure wrestling and not watching performers use anything and everything they could get their hands on to use as weapons.

This is ridiculous. TNA and ROH started at the same time from similar backgrounds. For a while, they were on level pegging. Now, TNA is on national TV, iMPACT is watched more than one of the WWE's shows and the company makes a profit.

Maybe TNA is on national television because TNA has the old, memorable names that people grew up with like Sting, Foley, Jarrett himself, Angle, Taz, Booker T, Nash, the Dudley Boyz, and Scott Steiner that the people at Spike knew people would watch regardless if they were entertaining or not. ROH did not have the established stars to become as big as TNA.

Meanwhile, ROH finds itself on an obscure network that most people don't have and most people don't watch. The company is haemorrhaging money left, right and centre and they can't fill the Hammerstein Ballroom while TNA are filling Wembley Arena. The difference is that TNA are giving the public what they want, and ROH aren't.

They did start from similar backgrounds but I feel that a big difference was who was running each promotion at the time. Rob Feinstein, the owner of ROH at the time, made a living selling ECW DVD’s and making appearances as a part of the Blue World Order but didn't wrestle. Whereas Jarrett had runs in both WCW and the WWE, giving him much more knowledge and experience than Feinstein. Jarrett also had the money Feinstein did not


So making your wrestlers more popular is a bad thing? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, now does it? If ROH's wrestlers become entertaining, then people are more likely to pay to see them, which means ROH can reach the dizzy heights of having 1,000 people in attendence and then be able to afford to pay their talent. When TNA and ROH started, they basically shared a roster. One of them went the entertainment way and plundered the talent pool, the other didn't and now has D'Lo Brown and Jerry Lynn compared to TNA's Sting and Mick Foley.

Making your superstars more popular is not a bad thing but, it will lead to more superstars asking for money that ROH won't be able to afford. That would lead to either the superstar in question leaving the company for the money he feels he deserves or he becomes a disgruntled member for the company who starts to become a cancer to the entire locker room thus hurting the program more than helping it.



In short, throughout the history of wrestling, the ones who focus on soley the wrestling end up being left behind (AWA, NWA) and the ones who focus on being an entertainment sideshow also do (WCW). The promotions that have flourished are the ones that found the correct balance. The WWF has shown us time and again that it is possible to have fantastic wrestling matches on cards that have entertainment only shows. Lets not forget that an hour after Shawn Michaels beat Chris Jericho in one of the matches of the decade, two men with an average age of 54 had a street fight. 54,000 people were in attendance that night and another 620,000 paid to watch it at home. ROH don't even have 1% of that kind of audience for their PPVs, which is pathetic.

Wrestling used to be able to survive on the in ring competition alone, but that was when boxing was the only other in ring sport and the layman thought that wrestling was real. Nobody now thinks that, and MMA is here to stay. Given the choice between a fake fight at face value and a real one, 99.99% of the world would go for the real one. However, if you get comedy and drama from the fake fight, the product becomes less one dimensional. This essentially means that ROH can either continue down the path it is on to bankruptcy, or admit that their model is a failure and move onwards and upwards with an entertaining product and get people tuning in. Otherwise, they cannot survive.

Well, in reality, the WWE has been the only company to find the "correct" balance between entertainment and wrestling. TNA's ratings continue to slip and now barely beats WWE Superstars in terms of ratings. Their model is not a failure if more people tune in and take notice. Just because it may never pass the level of the third promotion doesn't mean that it will be the failure you claim it is.
 
ROH isn't trying to be the next big wrestling promotion. They have steadily gained new fans by staying the way they are. Only if they are trying to compete with some other company like the WWE or TNA for ratings should they try to incorporate more entertainment. Seeing how that isn't likely to happen anytime soon, there is no reason to drastically change anything up.

So, what you are saying is that ROH want to be in debt, want to have next to no audience? Because that is the status quo. The company is not beinging a new product to new fans, it isn't making money and it has no company loyalty. You said your self that wrestlers leave as soon as they are good enough to go elsewhere. Why? If the company was good they would stay. ROH is an abject failure no matter how you want to look at it. Your saying that ROH shouldn't change, because to do so would make it more successful, which is ridiculous.


Entertainment does have a place in wrestling and ROH gives their fans a different kind of entertainment. One that feels unique compared to your typical WWE or TNA type of entertainment. And Taker is not all about entertainment. He is a great wrestler as well as an entertainer. His 5 star matches are probably rated that high due to his great wrestling ability and not because he is a "deadman in a hat".

But that is precisely my point. Undertaker is a juxtaposition of good wrestling and good entertainment, and he headlines shows watched by millions of people. Nigel McGuinness is all about the wrestling and headlines shows watched by a thousand people. The distinction is obvious. A good wrestler is one that has entertaining matches and who is entertaining to the audience, ROH do not have suh wrestlers, or do not utilise them cleverly, and end up having nobody in the audience.
ECW was the first promotion to drop in the Monday Night Wars because the majority of the wrestling fans wanted to see real, pure wrestling and not watching performers use anything and everything they could get their hands on to use as weapons.

That is literally the most wrong statement in history. ECW failed because it was badly run, and because it wasn't pushed by its network. ECW lasted for as long as ROH has now, and it had significantly more of an impact on the industry, on the ratings and on the audience. If ROH collapsed tomorrow, nobody would be talking about it in 9 years. Nobody would be talking about it in 9 months, in all likelihood.

People wanted pure wrestling? Is that what they were getting on WWF which was winning at the time? Beaver Cleavage, was that pure wrestling? Undertaker "marrying" Stephanie, was that pure wrestling? Steve Austin wrecking the bus, was that pure wrestling? Nobody has wanted pure wrestling since the early 1980s, ask the NWA and AWA.

Maybe TNA is on national television because TNA has the old, memorable names that people grew up with like Sting, Foley, Jarrett himself, Angle, Taz, Booker T, Nash, the Dudley Boyz, and Scott Steiner that the people at Spike knew people would watch regardless if they were entertaining or not. ROH did not have the established stars to become as big as TNA.

Except Sting, Foley, Taz, Angle, Booker T, Nash, Scott Steiner and the Dudleys weren't members of the TNA roster when they signed their TV deal with Spike. So, either you are attributing Jeff Jarrett with having the drawing power to get a TV deal, or you have to accept that TNA was just a better product.
They did start from similar backgrounds but I feel that a big difference was who was running each promotion at the time. Rob Feinstein, the owner of ROH at the time, made a living selling ECW DVD’s and making appearances as a part of the Blue World Order but didn't wrestle. Whereas Jarrett had runs in both WCW and the WWE, giving him much more knowledge and experience than Feinstein. Jarrett also had the money Feinstein did not


Right, so the Jarretts, who know what they are talking about when it comes to wrestling, went down the entertainment avenue. The Jarretts didn't have money, that's why they had to sell the company, but because they set the foundations for an entertainment based company that was very sellable. As it is, ROH has nothing worth buying, because you could start a wrestling company that nobody was arsed about from scratch.

Making your superstars more popular is not a bad thing but, it will lead to more superstars asking for money that ROH won't be able to afford. That would lead to either the superstar in question leaving the company for the money he feels he deserves or he becomes a disgruntled member for the company who starts to become a cancer to the entire locker room thus hurting the program more than helping it.

But you are completely missing the point. If the wrestlers are more popular, ROH will be able to spend more on bringing in new talent and on keeping the talent they have. The popularity of AJ Styles meant TNA could afford to bring in Rhyno. The popularity of Rhino eant they could bring in Sting. The popularity and success of Sting meant they could bring in Angle... The list is endless. Essentially, TNA has successfully managed to deliver a product that people want to see, so it can afford to keep its wrestlers. ROH cannot even afford to keep its wrestlers, because nobody wants to watch them. An unpopular product is useless in all respects. If one wrestler gets too big for his boots, thats a price worth paying, but there isn't much of a precedent, to be honest.

Well, in reality, the WWE has been the only company to find the "correct" balance between entertainment and wrestling. TNA's ratings continue to slip and now barely beats WWE Superstars in terms of ratings. Their model is not a failure if more people tune in and take notice. Just because it may never pass the level of the third promotion doesn't mean that it will be the failure you claim it is.

TNA's ratings continue to slip? Why is it that their average for 2009 is 1.19 and for 2008 it is 1.05? Thats an increase. Up, the numbers go up. The ECW rating average for 2009 is 1.22, so practically the same, while the Superstars average rating is 0.91, so like I said TNA is competing with ECW, and it is nowhere near Superstars, which is what you said. If we're talking ratings do you think ROH even has 10% of the Superstars audience? Because I don't.


It seems to me like your only argument is that ROH will lose some of its uniqueness if it adds entertainment. While it may be true, it is irrelevant. ROH is a business, and if it wants to give its consumers what it wants and make money, it needs to add entertainment. ROH may have a small fan base, but loyalty to the fans will get you nowhere. They have to at least try to broaden their horizons, or they will fail. Its all well and good having a hardcore of 1,000 fans, but unless you start to rip those fans off, you need more of them through the gate and buying your merchandise. The ROH way doesn't add fans, so it has to change or die.

If it wants to be a martyr and be unique, then power to it, but its going to go out of business sooner rather than later. WWE and TNA are making huge profits and TNA is growing at a huge rate, ROH is losing money hand over fist, and it isn't going to get better unless it changes. Nobody wants pure wrestling as the demise of the NWA and AWA have shown us. To get with the times, ROH has to encorporate an entertainment aspect, otherwise it will go down the tube in a few months.
 
So, what you are saying is that ROH want to be in debt, want to have next to no audience? Because that is the status quo. The company is not beinging a new product to new fans, it isn't making money and it has no company loyalty. You said your self that wrestlers leave as soon as they are good enough to go elsewhere. Why? If the company was good they would stay. ROH is an abject failure no matter how you want to look at it. Your saying that ROH shouldn't change, because to do so would make it more successful, which is ridiculous.

The company is bringing in new fans. If ROH wasn't, how come it landed a tv deal or is selling more DVD's now than when they started? Wrestlers leave because Ring of Honor doesn't have the money to support the big egos that come with the popularity you'd think the wrestlers would receive. You posted that they hardly have any money left to keep the company from bankruptcy so how are they going to be able to support and maintain that level of sucess? Seems like ROH would be a fad for a couple of months at best before falling off completely. You got to have money in order to spend money on all of the entertainment aspects that TNA and WWE have the luxury of spending, something that ROH does not have. The best thing for them to do is stay the course and please the loyal fans, who will then in turn get a few of their friends to watch and so on and so forth


But that is precisely my point. Undertaker is a juxtaposition of good wrestling and good entertainment, and he headlines shows watched by millions of people. Nigel McGuinness is all about the wrestling and headlines shows watched by a thousand people. The distinction is obvious. A good wrestler is one that has entertaining matches and who is entertaining to the audience, ROH do not have suh wrestlers, or do not utilise them cleverly, and end up having nobody in the audience.

Undertaker headlines shows that the company has produced for over thirty years as the WWF/E, which is probably worth billions of dollars while McGuinness is the champion of a company that has been in existance for only seven years. Obviously the WWE has had a much longer time establishing a core fan base that will watch no matter what it does than Ring of Honor. I'd like to know how to utilise a wrestler to create a multi-million dollar superstar on a very, very limited budget. If you know how to use Punk, Joe, and Danielson please tell me because I can't see how it'd be possible.




But you are completely missing the point. If the wrestlers are more popular, ROH will be able to spend more on bringing in new talent and on keeping the talent they have. The popularity of AJ Styles meant TNA could afford to bring in Rhyno. The popularity of Rhino eant they could bring in Sting. The popularity and success of Sting meant they could bring in Angle... The list is endless. Essentially, TNA has successfully managed to deliver a product that people want to see, so it can afford to keep its wrestlers. ROH cannot even afford to keep its wrestlers, because nobody wants to watch them. An unpopular product is useless in all respects. If one wrestler gets too big for his boots, thats a price worth paying, but there isn't much of a precedent, to be honest.

So ROH incorporates more entertainment in their product and becomes a cheap knock-off of TNA, which is a cheap imitation of the WWE. That annoys the loyal fans who now leave because they watched soley for the pure wrestling. Meanwhile, the casual fans that watch WWE or TNA won't watch ROH because the other two shows put on a better show from an entertainment standpoint. You still have ROH, who is now wasting money on all of the extra entertainment aspects that they believed would've help. Now you have to pay extra for those superstars with the egos or release them and watch them wrestle in another promotion, driving more of the fan base away to the other promotions. Next thing you know, ROH is out of business in the next few weeks.

TNA's ratings continue to slip? Why is it that their average for 2009 is 1.19 and for 2008 it is 1.05? Thats an increase. Up, the numbers go up. The ECW rating average for 2009 is 1.22, so practically the same, while the Superstars average rating is 0.91, so like I said TNA is competing with ECW, and it is nowhere near Superstars, which is what you said. If we're talking ratings do you think ROH even has 10% of the Superstars audience? Because I don't.

Why is it that ECW is now starting to average around a 1.3 weekly rating while TNA, who was averaging somewhere between 1.2 and 1.3 at the beginning of the year, is now receving 1.0s and 1.13s on Spike TV. Superstars is getting 0.9s on a channel that doesn't have many people watching. It's almost safe to say that the pure wrestling show for WWE would be pulling in higher numbers than TNA if they were on Spike instead of WGN.


It seems to me like your only argument is that ROH will lose some of its uniqueness if it adds entertainment. While it may be true, it is irrelevant. ROH is a business, and if it wants to give its consumers what it wants and make money, it needs to add entertainment. ROH may have a small fan base, but loyalty to the fans will get you nowhere. They have to at least try to broaden their horizons, or they will fail. Its all well and good having a hardcore of 1,000 fans, but unless you start to rip those fans off, you need more of them through the gate and buying your merchandise. The ROH way doesn't add fans, so it has to change or die.

If it wants to be a martyr and be unique, then power to it, but its going to go out of business sooner rather than later. WWE and TNA are making huge profits and TNA is growing at a huge rate, ROH is losing money hand over fist, and it isn't going to get better unless it changes. Nobody wants pure wrestling as the demise of the NWA and AWA have shown us. To get with the times, ROH has to encorporate an entertainment aspect, otherwise it will go down the tube in a few months.

As you said in another post, ROH is "on an obscure network that most people don't have and most people don't watch". So like I said, why would ROH drive away their loyal fans, who do watch for the pure wrestling and to get away from all of the entertainment aspects the WWE and TNA have to offer, just to cater a fan base that won't be able to watch because they don't get HD Net. Now instead of having the 1,000 loyal pure wrestling fans, they now have less than 500 fans who are on the verge of finding another indy to watch pure wrestling. Changing up their show would result in ROH going down the tube in the matter of weeks instead of the few months you say they're on the road to.
 
The company is bringing in new fans. If ROH wasn't, how come it landed a tv deal or is selling more DVD's now than when they started?

The company isn't bringing in new fans. The channel isn't attracting anyone, because firstly nobody has it, and secondly nobody who does have it watches it. For a channel not to be on Neilsen, it means it never gets ratings above 0.1, so its contribution is negligible. It may be selling more DVDs than the day it started, but it certainly isn't selling anymore than it was 2 years ago. The growth has stopped.
Wrestlers leave because Ring of Honor doesn't have the money to support the big egos that come with the popularity you'd think the wrestlers would receive. You posted that they hardly have any money left to keep the company from bankruptcy so how are they going to be able to support and maintain that level of sucess? Seems like ROH would be a fad for a couple of months at best before falling off completely. You got to have money in order to spend money on all of the entertainment aspects that TNA and WWE have the luxury of spending, something that ROH does not have. The best thing for them to do is stay the course and please the loyal fans, who will then in turn get a few of their friends to watch and so on and so forth

You have to spend money to make money. At the rate they are going, they are gaining no new fans, they aren't selling out their live shows and nobody is buying their PPVs or DVDs. If the McDonald's brothers hadn't taken a risk and bought a second store, McDonald's would still be a drive in restautrant in San Bernadino and Ray Kroc would never have bought it. If ROH spend the money they have on shrewdly making a more entertaining product, then there will be more money for wrestlers and for growth.
Undertaker headlines shows that the company has produced for over thirty years as the WWF/E, which is probably worth billions of dollars while McGuinness is the champion of a company that has been in existance for only seven years. Obviously the WWE has had a much longer time establishing a core fan base that will watch no matter what it does than Ring of Honor. I'd like to know how to utilise a wrestler to create a multi-million dollar superstar on a very, very limited budget. If you know how to use Punk, Joe, and Danielson please tell me because I can't see how it'd be possible.

Your argument keeps coming back to this "WWE can do that because they have more money/more experience/better facilities". Does it ever occur to you that maybe they now what they are talking about? I'm not a wrestling booker, so it isn't for me to make Joe a star, but TNA managed it on a similar budget. Punk's first ECW push was very simplistic, but it worked. Even so, AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels are 100 time more recognisable than Danielson. Why? Because the company they stuck with used entertainment to market its wrestlers.
So ROH incorporates more entertainment in their product and becomes a cheap knock-off of TNA, which is a cheap imitation of the WWE. That annoys the loyal fans who now leave because they watched soley for the pure wrestling.

I'm not saying that they should turn ROH on HDnet into a 3 hour Nitro. What I am saying is that they should focus on entertainment more. The matches would be the same and most fans wouldn't leave, in the same way the pure fans didn't leave NWA/WCW when it got with the times.

Meanwhile, the casual fans that watch WWE or TNA won't watch ROH because the other two shows put on a better show from an entertainment standpoint. You still have ROH, who is now wasting money on all of the extra entertainment aspects that they believed would've help. Now you have to pay extra for those superstars with the egos or release them and watch them wrestle in another promotion, driving more of the fan base away to the other promotions. Next thing you know, ROH is out of business in the next few weeks.

You have way too much respect for wrestling fans. Nobody watched WCW, then it started doing entertainment like the WWE and lo and behold it became mega popular. We can ignore what happened at the end, because that wasn't about entertainment, that was about unbelievable stupidity. Next, TNA has also been an imitation of WWE, and it to has grown as a company. ROH hasn't and its going to go bankrupt. People will watch whatever they are shown as long as it is entertaining. With absolutely no advertising ECW (original) was getting ratings of 1.0, not exactly earth shattering, but still a hell of a lot more than ROH.


Why is it that ECW is now starting to average around a 1.3 weekly rating while TNA, who was averaging somewhere between 1.2 and 1.3 at the beginning of the year, is now receving 1.0s and 1.13s on Spike TV. Superstars is getting 0.9s on a channel that doesn't have many people watching. It's almost safe to say that the pure wrestling show for WWE would be pulling in higher numbers than TNA if they were on Spike instead of WGN.

Firstly, ECW's ratings at the start of the year were frequently in the 1.4s, now they've dropped, just have TNAs. This is due to a little quirk of nature called summer when the ratings of everything drop by a point or two.

Next, how often does Spike promote TNA? Not very much. How often does WGN promote Superstars? Well, its only their flagship show alongside Chicago Cubs baseball.

Thirdly, did you seriously call Superstars a pure wrestling show? Hornswoggle against Natalya involving juggling and a water pistol. Thats hardly Lou Thesz against Bret Hart is it?

Fourthly, I can tell you for a fact that as a global brand ROH has nothing. TNA gets more viewers in the UK and Ireland, for example, than Raw, Smackdown and ECW. Partly because of the channel its on, but it still gets it nonetheless. Now, considering that market is basically number three after Canada for north American wrestling, that is significant. Meanwhile, ROH's show gets precisely 0 viewers because nobody is interested in picking it up.
As you said in another post, ROH is "on an obscure network that most people don't have and most people don't watch". So like I said, why would ROH drive away their loyal fans, who do watch for the pure wrestling and to get away from all of the entertainment aspects the WWE and TNA have to offer, just to cater a fan base that won't be able to watch because they don't get HD Net.

Basic case of supply and demand. If people hear that ROH is producing a decent product, then the demand for the channel will go up in exactly the same way that the presence of Raw made TNN become Spike and Smackdown has revamped Mynetwork. There isn't an agreement when you sign for HDnet that says "you can only get this channel if you like the current ROH product." There are more people who aren't fans of ROH with HDnet that could be enticed to watch than there are current viewers.


Now instead of having the 1,000 loyal pure wrestling fans, they now have less than 500 fans who are on the verge of finding another indy to watch pure wrestling. Changing up their show would result in ROH going down the tube in the matter of weeks instead of the few months you say they're on the road to.

I'll put this simply. If 1% of the audience of Raw started to watch ROH, then they would have incresed their viewership significantly. Now that in itself should suggest why adding entertainment would make a difference to the company. If they managed the dizzy heights of 3%, then they'd get on the ratings list.

There's no reason to expect that this would fail, but even if it did, all they'd lose is a few weeks before they would have gone bust anyway. The worst case scenario in my way is that they go bust, which is the best case and indeed the only case scenario that they have now. Its better to have died trying, than to go out with a whimper. ROH should add entertainment, because if it doesn't, it will die. The margin to successs is a thin one, and they don't need to shift mountains. TNA has about 30% of the Raw audience, which is an admirable feat, now ROH needs 3%, significantly easier. ROH has a choice, try and stick to its ways and fail, or make a few concessions and thrive. To me, the choice is simple.
 
Clarity Of Argument: Tastycles, it is extremely important that you always open up a debate with an argument than a rebuttal (or, at least present an argument at a later time).

Point: Franchize1990

Punctuality: Tastycles, you get the point here.

Point: Tastycles

Informative: Both of you brought in quite a bit of information. Tastycles, you brought in more data, so I'll give the point to you here. But, in the future, please remember to bring in citations as well.

Point: Tastycles

Emotionality: Franchize1990, you always keep your cool under pressure; from previous encounters, I know that Tastycles can be quite quite aggressive. I give you props for keeping level-headed throughout the debate and never failing to come back with reasoned responses.

Point: Franchize1990

Persuasion: Tastycles, take a look at the first point I made again, as the same logic applies here. This debate was, more than anything, a case of Franchize1990 defending his view against a very smart and formidable opponent. While this made for an interesting read, it nonetheless still made for a lopsided debate.

Point: Franchize1990

tdigle's Score

Franchize1990: 3
Tastycles: 2
 
The last of week 5 debates, and after a hell of a week, I thank all the posters here.

Clarity Of Argument: Franchize, you did a wonderful job at keeping you posts lined up, organized and clear. You get this point here.

Punctuality: Tastycles was always on time, you get this point.

Informative: Franchize failed to really bring up some statistics that could have helped him make his points. I have to give Tastycles this point because of it.

Emotionality: I like Tastycles's vigor in this match, but I look at Franchize and I notice one thing. He is getting hungrier. He does not get this point, but I bet if he kept it up, he would get the next one for Emotion.

Persuasion: Interesting to say the least that I am giving his point to Franchize. He persuaded me to think that ROH can get by and slowly build up. I think that Tastycles focused too much on the supposed competition.


TM rates this match Tastycles 3 points to Franchize1990 2.
 
Clarity: I thought that Franchize presented his side in a clearer, and more to the point.

Point: Franchize1990

Punctuality: Tastycles gets the point.

Point: Tastycles

Informative: Tastycles started bringing in more data into the mix, and only then did Franchize start to use that information for himself.

Point: Tastycles

Emotionality: Both seemed like they were really getting into it, but I liked what I saw out of Franchize. He seemed to want it just a little bit more.

Point: Franchize1990

Persuasion: I would have figured at the start that Tastycles would have won, adding entertainment seems like the better idea, but Franchize was able to get me thinking that if it does happen, how the loyal fans will probably go away due to going away from the familiar formula, and new fans probably won't happen due to being on a network not all people can get.

Point: Franchize1990

CH David scores it Franchize1990 3, Tastycles 2.
 
Clarity Of Argument: Franchizes arguments were clear while Tastycles refused to start with an opening statement.

Point: Franchize1990

Punctuality: Tastycles, you get the point.

Point: Tastycles

Informative: Both had some information but I believe Tastycles went further with his information.

Point: Tastycles

Emotionality: They both did a good job and both wanted it, but I think Tastycles wanted it a little more.

Point: Tastycles.

Persuasion: Franchize was able to get me thinking about the topic. He kept it interesting while Tastycles failed to do so.

Point: Franchize1990

Tastycles - 3
Franchize-2
 
Clarity Of Argument: Franchize had an opening post and all that shit, point for him

Point: Franchize1990

Punctuality: Goin with the flow, giving the point to Tasty

Point: Tastycles

Informative: Tasty was the more informative, logic dictates he gets the point

Point: Tastycles

Emotionality: Franchize1990 is not known to me, but he seems to have the stuff I like. So kudos, on having the stuff.

Point: Franchize1990

Persuasion: I found myself in Tasty's corner for this one, probably because I am elitist

Point: Tastycles

I've got Chuck Norris in my sig, and my scores are;

Tastycles - 3
Franchize -2
 

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