Week 9: SkeptiKal -versus- Tastycles

Mr. TM

Throwing a tantrum
Benoit or Guerrero: Whose death is WWE more at fault for?

Tastycles is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
 
(Note to Tastycles: Sorry if I’m late this week, just started uni and hectic at the moment, mainly with going out rather than work but I’m sure you understand.)

Benoit or Guerrero: Whose death is WWE more at fault for?

The WWE is more at fault for Eddie Guerrero’s death. Sure, the WWE was at fault for both deaths, but both were really quite different and in much different circumstances. Benoit’s death was and still is more shrouded in mystery than Guerrero’s. There is one main argument as to why the WWE are more at fault for Guerrero’s;

The WWE’s had no talent wellness program before Guerrero died.

This means that they weren’t strongly trying to stop their wrestlers from taking any kind of drug, this is completely irresponsible by the WWE as the wrestlers weren’t checked up on therefore leaving themselves completely vulnerable. This for me is where the WWE becomes more at fault for Guerrero’s death rather than Benoit’s.

The WWE are obviously also at a level of fault for Benoit’s death, however, the WWE talent wellness program was implemented before Benoit’s death, meaning that the WWE did actually try to cut down on wrestlers taking steroids and other dangerous drugs. Purely by implementing this program, the WWE become less at fault because this shows that they had clearly outlined what drugs were legal, and were actually trying to stop wrestlers from using them.

Before Guerrero’s death, the number of wrestlers within the WWE must have been a lot higher, obviously there is no way knowing, but you’d have to assume that the wellness program certainly deterred wrestlers from taking steroids in fear of being fired. Now, this does make sense as well, Vince doesn’t want wrestlers dying in his company due to steroid use, I mean WWE openly suspended/released 11 performers immediately following release of their names in conjunction with anabolic steroid purchases. In this context, this means that before Guerrero died, Vince wasn’t as worried and didn’t check as much whether wrestlers used steroids. This puts the WWE at huge fault for the death of Guerrero, at least when Benoit died, the WWE were trying to stop steroid use, now while the talent wellness program isn’t 100% reliable and wrestlers aren’t constantly tested, they were at least making some effort to stop wrestlers taking illegal steroids.

It took Guerrero’s death to make Vince implement the wellness program, that alone shows that he knows he was at fault for Guerrero’s death and something had to be done. Benoit’s death was also partly WWE’s fault for not testing wrestlers more often, but at least the system was there. Benoit knew he could be caught and fired, but he still took the drugs making Benoit himself at more fault for not only risking his life, but his livelihood. Before Guerrero’s death, whilst he was foolish for taking the drugs and risking his life, there were no threats to be fired or caught, no wellness program to try and prevent this. That is why the WWE is more at fault for Guerrero’s death.
 
Ladies, or lack thereof, and gentlemen, tonight I will explain why the WWE is more responsible for the death of Chris Benoit than for that of Eddie Guerrero. I intend to do that in two ways, firstly by showing that they were responsible for Benoit's death, and secondly for showing that they weren't to blame for that of Eddie Guerrero.

I will begin my argument by making my own contributions, before addressing those of my opponent. I don't mind that my opponent will be slow, you only have one freshers week in your life, make the most of it. When you get to your last year, it becomes more acceptable to eat cereal and post on a wrestling forum in your boxers.

Anway, onto my argument...

Steroids didn't make Benoit kill his wife...

But the impact that sustained drug abuse had on him probably had an impact on it. The WWE may not have had a talent wellness policy before Guerrero died, but they weren't imposing it when Benoit died, despite the fact they should have been doing so. Benoit bought steroids in February 2006, it was later shown, and yet, the WWE didn't pick him up on that in over 16 months before he murdered his family, which seems very odd, doesn't it?

A little time off wouldn't go amiss

By all accounts, Chris Benoit moved into himself and struggled to cope with the death of Eddie Guerrero. Seeing as the wrestlers are away from home and on the road more than 200 days a year, it would surely have been noticed that Benoit was unstable, to say the least. The fact that this wasn't picked up on by anyone in the company, from talent relations to the company doctors allegedly carrying out these wellness inspections, suggests to me that they are neglecting the wellbeing of their talent, which is a bad move in any business, especially one as intense as professional wrestling.

Brain of an 85 year old with Alzheimers

That title was the description of Benoit's head after 20 years of head cracking chair shot action. It has been hypothesised that this brain damage led to the dementia that cause Benoit to kill his family, as it has been seen in 4 NFL players who also caused harm to themselves and others.Christopher Nowinski said that Benoit was one of the only wrestlers stupid enough to take a chair shot to the back of the head. This raises two questions: firstly, if some nobody wrestler like Nowinski is aware of the dangers of a chair shot to the back of the head, and most of the talent is, then why the fuck were the WWE letting him do take those shots?

Secondly, and perhaps more pertinantly, even without a wellness policy, the WWE should have been giving their talent regular medicals, to make sure they aren't going to die in the ring, or give their opponents AIDS and stuff. A sport like wrestling should treat a head scan as pretty essential in such a medical, afterall, brain damage and aneurysms are what will kil most people that die in the ring.

They should have known something was up

Benoit had a history of beating his wife, who had opened divorce proceedings twice against him for his violent behaviour. When Benoit started acting bizarrely and missing shows, the WWE should have tried to find out exactly what was wrong. Benoit was scheduled to fight on PPV, and they should have sent a doctor to diagnose the problem in his family, or at least called him to see where he was. In the end, he called them and described what was wrong with his family. He said he was at a hospital, but didn't say where, not to mention the fact he changed his story between speaking to a co worker and talent relations. The WWE didn't act, didn't question him, even though he was clearly troubled on the phone, as proven by Chavo calling him back.

That's it for now on Benoit, we move on to them not being to blame for Guerrero.

Guerrero was clean when he died

This is something that may suprise you, but there was nothing that shouldn't have been in Guerrero's system that shouldn't have been there. The WWE cannot be held responsible for what happened to Guerrero in the past. IT was drug abuse that killed Guerrero, but several years after the fact. If I died tomorrow because I breathed in asbestos at a factory job I had three years ago, it is not my current employer's fault. Its the same here.

1999 and all that...

Guerrero's problems began after he was rushed back from a car accident in 1999. That was when he worked for WCW, not WWE. It could be argued that Benoit's problems stemmed from his pre-WWF days too, but there is a problem with that. When Guerreo's problems came to light, he was put in rehab, then released. It was only when he returned much cleaner that he was given his job back. That is the WWE showing some responsibility.

Those are my arguments for the time being, I will now address my opponents...

SK said:
This means that they weren’t strongly trying to stop their wrestlers from taking any kind of drug, this is completely irresponsible by the WWE as the wrestlers weren’t checked up on therefore leaving themselves completely vulnerable. This for me is where the WWE becomes more at fault for Guerrero’s death rather than Benoit’s.

There are two problems with this. 1 Guerrero wasn't taking drugs when he died. 2. Benoit was when he died. It is true that there wasn't a wellness policy before Eddie, but it is also true that they didn't enforce it at all before Benoit died, which is probably worse, because the talent would be reliant on a wellness policy that wasn't even there.

The WWE are obviously also at a level of fault for Benoit’s death, however, the WWE talent wellness program was implemented before Benoit’s death, meaning that the WWE did actually try to cut down on wrestlers taking steroids and other dangerous drugs. Purely by implementing this program, the WWE become less at fault because this shows that they had clearly outlined what drugs were legal, and were actually trying to stop wrestlers from using them.

I think I'm correct in saying that they punished 1 person before Benoit died. It later emerged that at least 11 had been in receipt of drugs before he died, seemingly proving that the wellness policy was a waste of time until Benoit died.

Before Guerrero’s death, the number of wrestlers within the WWE must have been a lot higher, obviously there is no way knowing, but you’d have to assume that the wellness program certainly deterred wrestlers from taking steroids in fear of being fired. Now, this does make sense as well, Vince doesn’t want wrestlers dying in his company due to steroid use, I mean WWE openly suspended/released 11 performers immediately following release of their names in conjunction with anabolic steroid purchases. In this context, this means that before Guerrero died, Vince wasn’t as worried and didn’t check as much whether wrestlers used steroids. This puts the WWE at huge fault for the death of Guerrero, at least when Benoit died, the WWE were trying to stop steroid use, now while the talent wellness program isn’t 100% reliable and wrestlers aren’t constantly tested, they were at least making some effort to stop wrestlers taking illegal steroids.

The problem being that those guys should have failed drug tests. Those 11 all took drugs before Benoit died, but didn't get punished until after he did. The wellness policy before Benoit was a complete and utter dud. Afew developmental guys and Orton were the only suspensions before Benoit died, and in the time since we have seen over 20 times that figure. I sincerely doubt usage has gone up since then, so we have the only possible outcome being that the wellness policy wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

I leave this debate with this closing statement. My opponent has based his entire argument on a useless wellness policy, whereas I have looked deeper into the circumstances of both deaths. It seems apparent that the on the one hand we have the sudden death of a performer against a suicide of an unbalanced, unhealthy man. The WWE should have seen the signs with Benoit, and they didn't, and as a result, I have shown that the WWE were more responsible for the death of Chris Benoit than that of Eddie Guerrero.
 
I will begin my argument by making my own contributions, before addressing those of my opponent. I don't mind that my opponent will be slow, you only have one freshers week in your life, make the most of it. When you get to your last year, it becomes more acceptable to eat cereal and post on a wrestling forum in your boxers.

Thanks mate, it’s been a great week, I’ve been so busy and it’s been my birthday so I’m sure you can appreciate why I haven’t really posted. Sorry I could give you the debate I wanted to as I’m sure it would have been great.

Steroids didn't make Benoit kill his wife...

But the impact that sustained drug abuse had on him probably had an impact on it. The WWE may not have had a talent wellness policy before Guerrero died, but they weren't imposing it when Benoit died, despite the fact they should have been doing so. Benoit bought steroids in February 2006, it was later shown, and yet, the WWE didn't pick him up on that in over 16 months before he murdered his family, which seems very odd, doesn't it?

That and all those unnecessary, unprotected chair shots to the back of his head that Benoit decided he could take. Sure, he took steroids, so did Guerrero. However, the wellness policy was in place when Benoit died, which at least gave him a chance. However, Benoit decided he was made of steel and by choice, pounded his head night after night with chair shots. No other wrestler took the same chair shots, he didn’t have to and this may have had the biggest effect on Benoit, making the WWE less at fault.

A little time off wouldn't go amiss

By all accounts, Chris Benoit moved into himself and struggled to cope with the death of Eddie Guerrero. Seeing as the wrestlers are away from home and on the road more than 200 days a year, it would surely have been noticed that Benoit was unstable, to say the least. The fact that this wasn't picked up on by anyone in the company, from talent relations to the company doctors allegedly carrying out these wellness inspections, suggests to me that they are neglecting the wellbeing of their talent, which is a bad move in any business, especially one as intense as professional wrestling.

Nobody in the WWE gets time off, if Guerrero had time off, maybe he’d be alive. Most wrestlers in the WWE are on the road over 200 days a year, yet only 2 have died. The WWE maybe does work their wrestlers too much, but they worked Guerrero just as much as they worked Guerrero, working all the time doesn’t help. However, it’s personal choice. Benoit & Guerrero didn’t have to work for the WWE, but both did and whilst having no time off may have hurt, it was the same for both men.

Brain of an 85 year old with Alzheimers

That title was the description of Benoit's head after 20 years of head cracking chair shot action. It has been hypothesised that this brain damage led to the dementia that cause Benoit to kill his family, as it has been seen in 4 NFL players who also caused harm to themselves and others.Christopher Nowinski said that Benoit was one of the only wrestlers stupid enough to take a chair shot to the back of the head. This raises two questions: firstly, if some nobody wrestler like Nowinski is aware of the dangers of a chair shot to the back of the head, and most of the talent is, then why the fuck were the WWE letting him do take those shots?

So yeah his brain was fucked up, but why’s that the WWE’s fault? No other wrestler is labelled as having the brain of an 85 year old with Alzheimers. This is Benoit’s fault, why the fuck would he take chair shots to the back of the head? No other wrestler in the WWE did this, it’s not in their contract, they don’t have to do it. So you have to ask the question, why the hell would Benoit take unnecessary chair shots to the back of the head? That’s purely HIS fault, those chair shots may have done the most damage, and this isn’t the WWE’s fault, this is Benoit’s fault. Benoit - due to his own stupidity, allowed himself to be hit in the back of the head, unprotected - this is may have what lead to his and his families death.

Secondly, and perhaps more pertinantly, even without a wellness policy, the WWE should have been giving their talent regular medicals, to make sure they aren't going to die in the ring, or give their opponents AIDS and stuff. A sport like wrestling should treat a head scan as pretty essential in such a medical, afterall, brain damage and aneurysms are what will kil most people that die in the ring.

I can concede this, but it’s exactly the same with Guerrero, this point doesn’t make the WWE more at fault for Benoit’s death, it’s the same for both men, there should be more health tests, then maybe neither man would be dead. However, at least Benoit had the slimmest chance with the wellness policy, whereas Guerrero had nothing, no tests, no help which makes the WWE at fault for his death.

They should have known something was up

Benoit had a history of beating his wife, who had opened divorce proceedings twice against him for his violent behaviour. When Benoit started acting bizarrely and missing shows, the WWE should have tried to find out exactly what was wrong. Benoit was scheduled to fight on PPV, and they should have sent a doctor to diagnose the problem in his family, or at least called him to see where he was. In the end, he called them and described what was wrong with his family. He said he was at a hospital, but didn't say where, not to mention the fact he changed his story between speaking to a co worker and talent relations. The WWE didn't act, didn't question him, even though he was clearly troubled on the phone, as proven by Chavo calling him back.

So he had history, so do most wrestlers, Austin beat his wife, he’s not dead, he didn’t kill his family. At some point you have to draw the line between your work and personal life. My boss doesn’t ring me up asking about my personal life and I don’t think the WWE can be expected to keep a constant watch over every employee they have. They rang Benoit multiple times, they had people sent to his house, one phone call does not mean the WWE should be rushing to his house, they can’t be considered at fault for not reacting to a phone call.

Guerrero was clean when he died

This is something that may suprise you, but there was nothing that shouldn't have been in Guerrero's system that shouldn't have been there. The WWE cannot be held responsible for what happened to Guerrero in the past. IT was drug abuse that killed Guerrero, but several years after the fact. If I died tomorrow because I breathed in asbestos at a factory job I had three years ago, it is not my current employer's fault. Its the same here.

He may have been clean at the time, but that’s not to say he didn’t take drugs, whilst in the WWE, infact it was highly expected that he was according to Sports illustrated; “Sports Illustrated posted on its website an article in its continuing series investigating a steroid and HGH ring used by a number of professional athletes in several sports. This article mentioned several current and former WWE wrestlers, including Guerrero, who was alleged to have obtained hCG and the steroid stanozolol in early 2005.”

1999 and all that...

Guerrero's problems began after he was rushed back from a car accident in 1999. That was when he worked for WCW, not WWE. It could be argued that Benoit's problems stemmed from his pre-WWF days too, but there is a problem with that. When Guerreo's problems came to light, he was put in rehab, then released. It was only when he returned much cleaner that he was given his job back. That is the WWE showing some responsibility.

Just because his problems didn’t start in the WWE doesn’t mean that they didn’t continue into the WWE, and just because Benoit wasn’t proven to have problems in WcW, doesn’t mean he didn’t have them. WWE showed little to no responsibility, they got rid of him to try and preserve their image, they welcomed him back but weren’t responsible enough to keep an eye on a former drug abuser. That is why the WWE is more at fault for Guerrero’s death.
 
There are two problems with this. 1 Guerrero wasn't taking drugs when he died. 2. Benoit was when he died. It is true that there wasn't a wellness policy before Eddie, but it is also true that they didn't enforce it at all before Benoit died, which is probably worse, because the talent would be reliant on a wellness policy that wasn't even there.

Guerrero still died because of years of drug abuse, granted he didn’t die taking the drugs but you can’t deny that the drugs eventually killed him and the WWE did not even pretend to care whether wrestlers took steroids. We can’t really say how well they enforce this as we don’t wrestle in the WWE, maybe it is useless, but it’s certainly more than they had before Guerrero died.

I think I'm correct in saying that they punished 1 person before Benoit died. It later emerged that at least 11 had been in receipt of drugs before he died, seemingly proving that the wellness policy was a waste of time until Benoit died.

That doesn’t really ‘prove’ much. No sport in the world does drugs test after every single performance, they couldn’t have been guaranteed to catch all 11. I’m not saying the wellness policy is amazing, but before Guerrero died, the WWE would allow the wrestlers to do whatever they wanted, take whatever they wanted. The wellness policy at least set boundaries and warn wrestlers of the consequences. By not having this before Guerrero died, there was no way they could of caught and stopped Guerrero’s drug abuse, this is irresponsible by the WWE and ultimately made them partly at fault for Guerrero’s demise.

The problem being that those guys should have failed drug tests. Those 11 all took drugs before Benoit died, but didn't get punished until after he did. The wellness policy before Benoit was a complete and utter dud. A few developmental guys and Orton were the only suspensions before Benoit died, and in the time since we have seen over 20 times that figure. I sincerely doubt usage has gone up since then, so we have the only possible outcome being that the wellness policy wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

Still, it has caught people, people have been suspended, Benoit himself might have been if he was alive longer. However, there was no chance in hell that the WWE would have caught Guerrero’s drug use, it took Guerrero’s death for Vince to recognise that they needed the wellness policy. This admission alone tells us that the WWE knew they were at fault and had to do something to try and stop drug use, they had to implement a wellness policy to try and stop wrestlers from dying. Nobody except Benoit has died in the WWE since Guerrero‘s death and the wellness program implementation, showing that Benoit is the anomaly and maybe the WWE is not that much at fault.

I leave this debate with this closing statement. My opponent has based his entire argument on a useless wellness policy, whereas I have looked deeper into the circumstances of both deaths. It seems apparent that the on the one hand we have the sudden death of a performer against a suicide of an unbalanced, unhealthy man. The WWE should have seen the signs with Benoit, and they didn't, and as a result, I have shown that the WWE were more responsible for the death of Chris Benoit than that of Eddie Guerrero.

I can appreciate that I have to look deeper, so I’ll look at some more reasons as to why the WWE are at fault for Guerrero’s death…

Guerrero’s death wasn’t just a ‘sudden death’.
He had been known to take drugs before the WWE, he was in rehab and the WWE just got rid of him to preserve their image. However, when they welcomed him back, they knew he took drugs, yet they didn’t check up on him, they let him do what he wanted, which included taking more steroids. This puts the WWE at fault, they knew he was a drug abuser, yet they let him go unnoticed and take more drugs, resulting in his demise. They should have checked up on him, but they didn’t, making them largely at fault.

Benoit took unnecessary chair shots by choice, possibly affecting him the most.
As I’ve already mentioned, Benoit took these by choice, they aren’t contracted to do this, no other wrestlers did this. However, Benoit thought he could. These chair shots may have seriously affected his brain, they may have done the most damage and caused his death. This is not the WWE’s fault, it’s Benoit’s, why did he think he could take these chair shots? Many doctors have alluded that it wasn’t the steroids that killed Benoit, but rather the constant impact to his brain e.g chair shot.

The WWE was more at fault for Guerrero’s death.
They should have seen the signs, he had been to rehab, but was allowed to do what he wanted, including taking steroids. They had no wellness policy in place to check on hi, unlike with Benoit’s death. The WWE is not as at fault for Benoit’s death because they at least had a system in place to check on wrestlers, they also didn’t make Benoit take those chair shots which may have killed him. The WWE was clearly more at fault for Guerrero’s death, they knew this and that's why they implemented the wellness policy, because they knew they had to try and stop anyone else dying.
 
Clarity of Argument - Tasty was the cleanest poster, and his well organized post gets him the point here.

Punctuality: Tasty was on time.

Informative: Well unfortunately, SK was late with his debate, and it did not give Tasty enough time here. But SK provided a lot more proven information.

Emotionality: Tasty due to his ability to keep his post in line.

Persuasion: SK had the bigger opportunity, so he had the ability to persuade me here.

TM rates this 3 points Tasty, 2 points SK.

Edited for mistake
 
Clarity: Both were good, but Tasty's was more outlined and easier to distinguish his points.

Point: Tastycles

Punctuality: Tasty was on time.

Point: Tastycles

Informative: SK used his posts to his advantage. Tasty used one post for his, SK added a little more in his.

Point: SkeptiKal

Emotionality: I didn't feel a whole lot of emotion coming from either of them.

Point: Split

Persuasion: Tasty gets this point. He pointed out that Eddie's previous drug use was the cause, and that it wasn't a current habit when he passed. All of the headbutts and chair shots Chris did were for the company.

Point: Tastycles

CH David scores this Tastycles 3.5, SkeptiKal 1.5.
 
Clarity: Tastycles made the best posts

Point: Tastycles

Punctuality: Tastycles

Point: Tastycles

Informative: SK had a longer time to gather information, he used it wisely

Point: SkeptiKal

Emotionality: Split

Point: Split

Persuasion: Tastycles won me over in the end

Point: Tastycles

I score this one

SK - 1.5
Tastycles - 3.5
 
Clarity Of Debate - Your layout was clean, Tastycles, but remember to keep your arguments and rebuttals separate. SK, your debate was almost as nicely laid as Tastycles'.

Point: Split

Punctuality - Tastycles gets the point here.

Point: Tastycles

Informative - Both guys brought in a good amount of information. I will split the point here as well.

Point: Split

Emotionality - Tastycles was passionate without being either condescending or derisive.

Point: Tastycles

Persuasion - As TM said, SK had the harder task, but he was definitely up to it. Good job, man.

Point: SK

tdigle's Score

SK - 2
Tastycles - 3
 

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