Round 1: Gelgarin -versus- SkeptiKal

[Mr. TM]

Is Hulk Hogan's entrance into TNA good for the company long term?

SkeptiKal is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific​

 

[SK]

Hey Gelgarin, I'll be debating that it is in fact not a good thing for TNA in the long term. I'll post first, expect my post to be up tonight. I can see that this is going to be a very hard one for me but i'll try, good luck.

 

[Gelgarin]

Can't wait. Well, actually I can because I'm taking an early night... but come tomorrow morning I'll be looking forward to this a great deal.

 

[SK]

Is Hulk Hogan's entrance into TNA good for the company long term?

I’ll be arguing that Hulk Hogan’s entrance to TNA is actually not good for the company in the long term. There are obvious advantages of Hogan joining TNA in the short term, however, I feel that they are outweighed by the negatives which I will proceed to explain.

1. Hogan can’t wrestle on a regular basis.
First and foremost this is the most obvious drawback of Hogan joining TNA. Hogan is 56, he’s in bad shape and gets riddled with injuries. Now, I’m sure he could have the odd match every year, but it wouldn’t be of good quality and could do a lot of damage to Hogan. What this means is that TNA is paying top dollar for a non-wrestler, a very big drawback for TNA’s wage budget and with the following reasons, may prove to be a costly price for TNA.

2. Hogan really isn’t that popular anymore.
Look at Hogan Knows Best, Hogan’s celebrity wrestling, both were failures, got low ratings and really just showed Hogan to be a dick. I can’t deny that Hogan isn’t a big or possibly the biggest name in wrestling, sure a lot of people know who he is. However, this does not mean that people will tune in, couple this with the fact that Hogan can’t wrestle on a regular basis, people are in no way guaranteed to tune in and why should they be? He’s old news, he can’t wrestle and has shown himself to be a dick who will do anything for publicity.

3. Hogan has shown in the past that he puts himself and his friends over.
You only have to look back at WCW, however, this isn’t to say it will definitely happen again, but let’s be honest, Hogan has a huge ego that as we’ve seen he loves to feed and he likes his close friends to reap the benefits of his power as well.

4. Hogan may try to create WWE-Lite.
When Hogan and Bischoff went to WCW, we saw them turn it into WWE-Lite and try to go head to head with them. Now this could be already apparent. Now, while this was good for WCW in the short term, just look what happened in the long term. This could be the exact fate of TNA with Hogan at the helm. He’ll most likely sign ex-WWE guys, try to make them big and completely alienate the TNA ‘originals’ who the fans love to see and what a lot of them watch for, something diverse from the WWE.

This is just my opening arguments, I obviously have more to make but will save them for later. But what I have summed up here is that Hogan going to TNA is not good for them in the long term because of his high wage, age, injuries, declining popularity and possible effect on the booking/style of the show.

 

[Gelgarin]

FUUUUUUCK - Just accidentally deleted my entire post. Ignore this.

 

[Gelgarin]

You're late. By rights I should be mortally offended at this discourtesy. I think you should count yourself very lucky that I'm the serene and tranquil individual that I am. Now...

Is Hulk Hogan's entrance into TNA good for the company long term?​

To answer this is a word, I'd be forced to go with the rather unoriginal "Yes". Hulk Hogan will not only constitute a significant draw for TNA, but will also prove invaluable in the areas of promotion, marketing and growth. Hogan has been followed by success for his entire career, across three wrestling promotions, and there is no legitimate reason to suspect that this success will not follow him to TNA as well.

If you will permit me to begin.

Hulk Hogan can bring unparalleled name recognition.​

Who in this business do we know better than Hulk Hogan? If your answer was anything besides "nobody" then I'm going to be forced to call you a liar at the opening bell. Hulk Hogan is both the biggest draw, and the biggest celebrity, in the history of Sports Entertainment.
A fundamental part of TNA's business strategy has always revolved around selling the retro factor to the old Monday Night Wars audience. That's why guys like Nash, Foley, Steiner and the rest of the broken down army are still on the books, despite no longer being able to do what people here refer to as wrestling. It's because there is a significant cross section of fans who still want to see their old favourites on TV, and Hulk Hogan brings nothing but benefit in this area.

Hulk Hogan can bring unparalleled media attention.​

If you listen to people on this forum, the current consensus is that the one thing TNA needs more than any other is mainstream exposer. Other proponents of this philosophy involve the one and only Disco Inferno, and if you're going to slander Mr Gilberty by calling him a liar then I'm going to have to ask you to step outside. Unfortunately for TNA, thirty seconds of prime-time advertising space retails in at approximately £200,000 and TNA quite simply cannot afford a conventional advertising campaign. As such, for the past seven years, they've been forced to do the best they can with what they have.

Now, over the company's first seven years, do you know when TNA has managed to get the most media attention? It was when Chris Benoit murdered his family, and a few of their guys were able to get on main stream media to talk about it. That's it... beyond that TNA simply cannot get its name out there to a wider audience, and potential fans are left utterly unaware of the company's existence.

Now, let me ask you the same question, but instead of the opening seven years, let's ask when TNA has managed to achieve the most media attention over the past seven years and four months. The answer suddenly changes from the Benoit tragedy to the signing of Hulk Hogan, and it's not even close.

Hulk Hogan is a one man media machine, capable of getting serious time with credible media whenever he wants it. Over the pest few weeks TNA has been mentioned on more significant media than during its entire existence up till that point. If Hogan can get this kind of time out of the media simply to promote his book, then he can get it to promote TNA, and that is massive for the company.

Hogan not only constitutes a draw, but he represents a high profile and cost effective avenue through which TNA can promote their product, and I'm sure even my opponent will acknowledge that this is a good thing.

Hulk Hogan has a proven track record of helping companies grow.​

AWA. WWF. WCW. - The greatest period of growth for all three of these companies has come during a time when Hulk Hogan was stood firmly on the helm.

It was Hulk Hogan's feuds with Bockwinkle and Blackburn that allowed the AWA to become relevant in the sports entertainment industry, and once he departed the company AWA fell by the wayside.
It was Hulk Hogan's arrival at the WWF that catapulted that company past thw AWA and the NWA to become to headline company in America.
It was the arrival of Hulk Hogan and the NWO that allowed WCW to become the number one promotion in USA.
There is an unmistakable correlation between the presence of Hulk Hogan in a wrestling company, and national success. He's three for three so far, and with a record like that I think we know where the smart money is going this time around.

Hulk Hogan comes with a free Eric Bischoff, one of the great creative minds of this generation.​

Bischoff has been there. He has been in control and taken a minor wrestling federation, and have it not only take on the biggest dog in the yard, but send that dog whimpering into a corner.
Like the man or not, he has a proven track record behind the scenes that nobody in TNA can match. Jarrett, Carter and Russo, whilst all phenomenally talented in their respective fields, do not bring the experience Bischoff has managing a wrestling federation, and the inclusion of his voice backstage can only be a good thing.

Hogan attracts talent.​

One thing I would really like for us to avoid in this debate is throwing unconfirmed dirt-sheet rumours at each other, so I'll try to keep this short. If Hogan's business relationships regarding his Australian tour are as expected, then there is a very real possibility of him bringing in major names such as Flair, or to a (much[much]) lesser extent Kennedy. Additionally, RVD (one of the hottest free agents in the industry, and one who would fit the best with TNA) has described the prospect of joining TNA as "more appealing" since Hogan joined.

Hulk Hogan not only brings exposer, he also brings legitimacy; and the presence of the Hulkster in the company makes it a more appealing place for talent, both young and old, to work.

______________________________​

Now, since I'm here, I might as well take a moment to fire back at some of the misconceptions that SK is promoting.

1. Hogan can’t wrestle on a regular basis.
First and foremost this is the most obvious drawback of Hogan joining TNA. Hogan is 56, he’s in bad shape and gets riddled with injuries. Now, I’m sure he could have the odd match every year, but it wouldn’t be of good quality and could do a lot of damage to Hogan. What this means is that TNA is paying top dollar for a non-wrestler, a very big drawback for TNA’s wage budget and with the following reasons, may prove to be a costly price for TNA.

I'm sorry, would you care to provide me with some evidence as to what TNA is paying Hogan... I wasn't aware that that had been made public. In fact, most of the ever reliable wrestling media has been reporting that he has a physical stake in the company, and as such has a vested interest in having it turn a profit.
To add to that, it was made public last year that Spike TV pay a major portion of Sting's wage bill because they see him as an asset to the network. If they're willing to pay for Sting then I can guarantee that they'll pay for Hogan. Dixie Carter isn't stupid, and even if she were, her father is a legitimate business man, and isn't going to sign a contract that's going to put the company in jeopardy.

To deal with your actual point, no Hogan can't wrestle on a regular basis. Explain to me how this has a negative effect on the company please.

2. Hogan really isn’t that popular anymore.
Look at Hogan Knows Best, Hogan’s celebrity wrestling, both were failures, got low ratings and really just showed Hogan to be a dick. I can’t deny that Hogan isn’t a big or possibly the biggest name in wrestling, sure a lot of people know who he is. However, this does not mean that people will tune in, couple this with the fact that Hogan can’t wrestle on a regular basis, people are in no way guaranteed to tune in and why should they be? He’s old news, he can’t wrestle and has shown himself to be a dick who will do anything for publicity.

If I was Slyfox then I'd currently by typing "lol" in huge capital letters, since this has to be one of the most poorly put together points I've ever encountered. How can Hogan simultaneously be "old news" and "the biggest name in wrestling". Sounds like something of an oxymoron to me.

You bring up Hogan knows best, the reality TV show that successfully ran for four seasons and birthed its own spinoff show. Year... major failure there.
The media storm that Hogan has whipped up over the past few weeks proves that Hogan still has the popularity to draw. The fact that Vince McMahon wanted to bring Hogan in to face Cena at Wrestmania proves that Hogan still has to popularity to draw.

Let's count up shall we. Mainstream media. Multiple TV networks. TNA. Vince McMahon.

To me that looks like quite a strong cross section of people who evidently think that Hulk Hogan is still popular enough to draw, and unless you're going to come up with something more compelling than Hogan is a dick then I suggest you drop this line of discussion. Hogan was a dick when he was taking WWF and WCW to the top.

3. Hogan has shown in the past that he puts himself and his friends over.
You only have to look back at WCW, however, this isn’t to say it will definitely happen again, but let’s be honest, Hogan has a huge ego that as we’ve seen he loves to feed and he likes his close friends to reap the benefits of his power as well.

Oh please. This is the same kind of IWC bullcrap that said that Vince Russo was going to book the company into oblivion (when he in fact earned it it's highest ever TV ratings), or that Kevin Nash was going to cause a revolt because of his laziness and love of money (when in fact he's become a locker room leader). It's sheer hype and nothing more.

You want a legitimate president? I'll happily admit that Hogan has frequently been known to do what is best for Hogan (just like everyone else in the entire industry) and given that he apparently has a financial stake in TNA, what's best for Hogan is for TNA to be a success.
You can think that the man is a dick all you like, but he knows how wrestling works, and he knows what's good for business. Hogan isn't as well off as he's been in previous years, and he can't afford to piss TNA away because of some internet conspiracy ego trip.

Whilst I'm on this point, may I ask another question? How the fuck is Hogan going to hurt the company be putting himself over when you yourself have made such a huge deal out of the fact that he won't be wrestling on a consistent basis? It's getting fairly transparent that you're simply hurling arguments against the wall in the hope that some of them stick, and I'd politely suggest that it's probably not a good strategy this far into the tournament.

4. Hogan may try to create WWE-Lite.
When Hogan and Bischoff went to WCW, we saw them turn it into WWE-Lite and try to go head to head with them. Now this could be already apparent. Now, while this was good for WCW in the short term, just look what happened in the long term. This could be the exact fate of TNA with Hogan at the helm. He’ll most likely sign ex-WWE guys, try to make them big and completely alienate the TNA ‘originals’ who the fans love to see and what a lot of them watch for, something diverse from the WWE.

Oh good gods... PLEASE tell me you are not one of those people who think that Hulk Hogan killed WCW. I don't think I could take having to have that debate again. WCW died out because it was horribly run, and because of the AOL/Time Warner merger. There's about 1,000,000 threads on it on this forum allready... please go and read one.
Hogan's contribution to WCW was to help turn it into the most successful wrestling organisation on the continent.
If Hulk Hogan can do the same for TNA then Christopher Daniels can go fuck himself.

That being said, your argument has no legitimacy for two reason. One, you have absolutely no evidence of what Hulk Hogan is going to want to do with the company. His only comments on the matte involve helping the young guys, so unless you've got an inside source you'd like to share with us I'm going to consider this valueless conjecture.

Secondly, TNA already try to sign all the former WWE guys that they can get their hands on, so how the acquisition of Hogan changes that is beyond me.

This is just my opening arguments, I obviously have more to make but will save them for later.

What is with people and reserving these "secret arguments"? Seriously?

But what I have summed up here is that Hogan going to TNA is not good for them in the long term because of

his high wage

That you know nothing about, and that all the evidence suggests is not the case.

age

If he's young enough to work for Vince then he's certainly young enough to work for TNA.

injuries

That hold no relevance.

declining popularity

That has repeatedly been shown not to be the case. Like I said, Vince wanted him for Mania, therefore he evidently is still over.

and possible effect on the booking/style of the show.

Yet more utterly groundless conjecture on your part.

________________________________________​

Now, what I have aimed to convey in this post, other than that my opponent is under the impression that his private conjecture counts as concrete fact in a debate situation, is the following.

Hogan will help TNA;

Draw.
Promote.
Recruit.
Grow.
Succeed.

All of this, with (as SK's post proves) no long term downside. I'd call this a pretty good deal personally

 

[SK]

Is Hulk Hogan's entrance into TNA good for the company long term?​

To answer this is a word, I'd be forced to go with the rather unoriginal "Yes". Hulk Hogan will not only constitute a significant draw for TNA, but will also prove invaluable in the areas of promotion, marketing and growth. Hogan has been followed by success for his entire career, across three wrestling promotions, and there is no legitimate reason to suspect that this success will not follow him to TNA as well.

Except that he was successful when he wasn’t a cripple. Sure, in his heyday he could draw, but if he can’t wrestle, exactly how is he going to draw? His name recognition is great for TNA in the short term, but just because he has a name, doesn’t mean he will make TNA successful, in fact other factors indicate that Hogan has a great potential to bring TNA down.

If you will permit me to begin.

Feel free.

Hulk Hogan can bring unparalleled name recognition.​

Who in this business do we know better than Hulk Hogan? If your answer was anything besides "nobody" then I'm going to be forced to call you a liar at the opening bell. Hulk Hogan is both the biggest draw, and the biggest celebrity, in the history of Sports Entertainment.
A fundamental part of TNA's business strategy has always revolved around selling the retro factor to the old Monday Night Wars audience. That's why guys like Nash, Foley, Steiner and the rest of the broken down army are still on the books, despite no longer being able to do what people here refer to as wrestling. It's because there is a significant cross section of fans who still want to see their old favourites on TV, and Hulk Hogan brings nothing but benefit in this area.

Yes, we do know Hogan better than anyone in this business, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to success. So what your saying is TNA is trying to be WCW? Great, look what happened there, if Hogan makes TNA go up against WWE, there’s only going to be one winner, the WWE. TNA should try and grow slowly, making new stars, but instead they bring in the old hacks like Nash, Foley, Hogan, Booker and exactly emulate what WCW did. This, for me, is one of the reasons why Hogan is NOT good in the long term, he’ll push TNA to go up against WWE and they will lose, just like every other promotion, and that is an undisputable fact, no company has beaten the WWE.

Hulk Hogan can bring unparalleled media attention.​

If you listen to people on this forum, the current consensus is that the one thing TNA needs more than any other is mainstream exposer. Other proponents of this philosophy involve the one and only Disco Inferno, and if you're going to slander Mr Gilberty by calling him a liar then I'm going to have to ask you to step outside. Unfortunately for TNA, thirty seconds of prime-time advertising space retails in at approximately £200,000 and TNA quite simply cannot afford a conventional advertising campaign. As such, for the past seven years, they've been forced to do the best they can with what they have.

They can have as much media attention as they want, but that’s not going to help if the programming continues to be below average and TNA brings in more old hacks. Sure Hogan could bring some media attention, but that doesn’t mean TNA will use it effectively. This is just a short term benefit that your trying to use as a long term advantage. If TNA doesn’t step up their production quality, Hogan’s media attention will equate to nothing.

Now, over the company's first seven years, do you know when TNA has managed to get the most media attention? It was when Chris Benoit murdered his family, and a few of their guys were able to get on main stream media to talk about it. That's it... beyond that TNA simply cannot get its name out there to a wider audience, and potential fans are left utterly unaware of the company's existence.

Now, let me ask you the same question, but instead of the opening seven years, let's ask when TNA has managed to achieve the most media attention over the past seven years and four months. The answer suddenly changes from the Benoit tragedy to the signing of Hulk Hogan, and it's not even close.

Do you have any proof of this? Or this this you stating opinion as fact? TNA are still a new company, they need time to grow and increase ratings steadily, which they had been doing until Hogan came and is trying to push them to go against the WWE already. Sure TNA may not have had the best ratings in the world, but they’ve been steadily growing and still need time to do so, please tell me how pushing them already is going to help TNA, that’s how WCW tried to do it and look how they ended up.

Hulk Hogan is a one man media machine, capable of getting serious time with credible media whenever he wants it. Over the pest few weeks TNA has been mentioned on more significant media than during its entire existence up till that point. If Hogan can get this kind of time out of the media simply to promote his book, then he can get it to promote TNA, and that is massive for the company.

Yeah, I’m not so sure about that, whilst he does get media attention, most of it is from wrestling websites/ magazines or bubba the love sponge. Still I don’t get how that equates to success? Even if TNA get huge attention, their product isn’t any better. So while I agree Hogan’s introduction is good for short term attention, it doesn’t equal long term success if the product doesn’t improve.

Hogan not only constitutes a draw, but he represents a high profile and cost effective avenue through which TNA can promote their product, and I'm sure even my opponent will acknowledge that this is a good thing.

Cost-effective? How exactly is he cost-effective, I’m not going to say anything because calling Hogan cost-effective is completely unfounded and pure opinion.

Hulk Hogan has a proven track record of helping companies grow.​

AWA. WWF. WCW. - The greatest period of growth for all three of these companies has come during a time when Hulk Hogan was stood firmly on the helm.

It was Hulk Hogan's feuds with Bockwinkle and Blackburn that allowed the AWA to become relevant in the sports entertainment industry, and once he departed the company AWA fell by the wayside.
It was Hulk Hogan's arrival at the WWF that catapulted that company past thw AWA and the NWA to become to headline company in America.
It was the arrival of Hulk Hogan and the NWO that allowed WCW to become the number one promotion in USA.
There is an unmistakable correlation between the presence of Hulk Hogan in a wrestling company, and national success. He's three for three so far, and with a record like that I think we know where the smart money is going this time around.

But the key component here, is that he brought success to these companies, when he was wrestling. Hogan is completely unproven as a non-wrestler, especially in running a creative team, for all you now, he’ll completely bomb with lack of experience. So I fail to see how success whilst wrestling regularly equates to success in the booking of TNA.

Hulk Hogan comes with a free Eric Bischoff, one of the great creative minds of this generation.​

Bischoff has been there. He has been in control and taken a minor wrestling federation, and have it not only take on the biggest dog in the yard, but send that dog whimpering into a corner.
Like the man or not, he has a proven track record behind the scenes that nobody in TNA can match. Jarrett, Carter and Russo, whilst all phenomenally talented in their respective fields, do not bring the experience Bischoff has managing a wrestling federation, and the inclusion of his voice backstage can only be a good thing.

Shame this debate isn’t about Bischoff, completely irrelevant.

Hogan attracts talent.​

One thing I would really like for us to avoid in this debate is throwing unconfirmed dirt-sheet rumours at each other, so I'll try to keep this short. If Hogan's business relationships regarding his Australian tour are as expected, then there is a very real possibility of him bringing in major names such as Flair, or to a (much[much]) lesser extent Kennedy. Additionally, RVD (one of the hottest free agents in the industry, and one who would fit the best with TNA) has described the prospect of joining TNA as "more appealing" since Hogan joined.

Hulk Hogan not only brings exposer, he also brings legitimacy; and the presence of the Hulkster in the company makes it a more appealing place for talent, both young and old, to work.

Yes, let’s believe everything Hogan says, he’s going to bring in all this talent… sure, we’ll probably see the Nasty Boys & Flair (who’s contractually obligated) but just because Hogan says he’ll bring in new people, it’s not at all guaranteed so plese don’t say Hogan attracts talent until he actually does.

______________________________​

Now, since I'm here, I might as well take a moment to fire back at some of the misconceptions that SK is promoting.

Well, I guess you’d be good at it considering how many misconceptions you promote.

I'm sorry, would you care to provide me with some evidence as to what TNA is paying Hogan... I wasn't aware that that had been made public. In fact, most of the ever reliable wrestling media has been reporting that he has a physical stake in the company, and as such has a vested interest in having it turn a profit.

So your telling me Hogan has gone to TNA and jeopardised his big WWE payoff, for no money? Yes, great assumption there, now whilst I obviously don’t know how much he’ll be getting, I’m sure he’ll be in the top pay bracket of the company, you can try and refute this all you want, but everybody knows Hogan doesn’t do shit for free.

To add to that, it was made public last year that Spike TV pay a major portion of Sting's wage bill because they see him as an asset to the network. If they're willing to pay for Sting then I can guarantee that they'll pay for Hogan. Dixie Carter isn't stupid, and even if she were, her father is a legitimate business man, and isn't going to sign a contract that's going to put the company in jeopardy.

Oh, you can guarantee it? Well I guess it’s settled then. But let me get this straight, your allowed to make assumptions and guarantee things about Hogan’s wages and I’m not, that’s a little bit hypocritical.

To deal with your actual point, no Hogan can't wrestle on a regular basis. Explain to me how this has a negative effect on the company please.

Explain to me how it isn’t. It’s a wrestling promotion, in which their biggest name doesn’t wrestle, which is a massive negative for TNA. Why are fans going to tune in to see Hogan when he doesn’t even wrestle?

If I was Slyfox then I'd currently by typing "lol" in huge capital letters, since this has to be one of the most poorly put together points I've ever encountered. How can Hogan simultaneously be "old news" and "the biggest name in wrestling". Sounds like something of an oxymoron to me.

He is the biggest name in wrestling, but that won’t want to make people tune in, especially not when he wont be wrestling, so I think that says more about the wrestling business than Hogan himself, the biggest name is a 56-year old cripple who can’t wrestle, why does this mean people will tune in?

You bring up Hogan knows best, the reality TV show that successfully ran for four seasons and birthed its own spinoff show. Year... major failure there.
The media storm that Hogan has whipped up over the past few weeks proves that Hogan still has the popularity to draw. The fact that Vince McMahon wanted to bring Hogan in to face Cena at Wrestmania proves that Hogan still has to popularity to draw.

Hogan - Cena was meant to be the big send off for Hogan, one more match, every legend gets that, so just because wanted to use him to draw money one more time, doesn’t mean that he’ll be good for TNA.

Oh please. This is the same kind of IWC bullcrap that said that Vince Russo was going to book the company into oblivion (when he in fact earned it it's highest ever TV ratings), or that Kevin Nash was going to cause a revolt because of his laziness and love of money (when in fact he's become a locker room leader). It's sheer hype and nothing more.

You can ‘Oh please’ all you want, but if everyone says something, including ex-WWE/WCW employees, then it usually it has some truth to it. Hogan loves to put himself and Nash over. His time in WCW shows that.

You want a legitimate president? I'll happily admit that Hogan has frequently been known to do what is best for Hogan (just like everyone else in the entire industry) and given that he apparently has a financial stake in TNA, what's best for Hogan is for TNA to be a success.
You can think that the man is a dick all you like, but he knows how wrestling works, and he knows what's good for business. Hogan isn't as well off as he's been in previous years, and he can't afford to piss TNA away because of some internet conspiracy ego trip.

So why wouldn’t he do it again? Just because he works in wrestling doesn’t make him a good booker or mean that TNA will be successful. How exactly does he know what’s good for business? Again this is pure opinion that you are presenting s fact. How exactly do you know that Hogan isn’t well off, what’s your source? I’m not saying he’ll piss TNA away on purpose, but he might make bad decisions due to what he believes is right.a

Whilst I'm on this point, may I ask another question? How the fuck is Hogan going to hurt the company be putting himself over when you yourself have made such a huge deal out of the fact that he won't be wrestling on a consistent basis? It's getting fairly transparent that you're simply hurling arguments against the wall in the hope that some of them stick, and I'd politely suggest that it's probably not a good strategy this far into the tournament.

Well my dear Gelgarin, this stategy of ‘throwing arguments against the wall’ has got me this far, so kindly don’t tell me how to debate and let the judges do that.

Oh good gods... PLEASE tell me you are not one of those people who think that Hulk Hogan killed WCW. I don't think I could take having to have that debate again. WCW died out because it was horribly run, and because of the AOL/Time Warner merger. There's about 1,000,000 threads on it on this forum allready... please go and read one.
Hogan's contribution to WCW was to help turn it into the most successful wrestling organisation on the continent.
If Hulk Hogan can do the same for TNA then Christopher Daniels can go fuck himself.

Well, thanks for putting words into my mouth. At what point did I say Hogan killed WCW? Although he did have a big part in the companies decline. He was the top heel/ face in the company and he had creative control, he has to take some of the blame for the death of WCW, he was involved in the fingerpoke of doom and the Jarret lying down/ Russo episode in which he ran his mouth in a ‘work’ badmouthing the company and putting himself over, as we’ve often seen Hogan come to do.

That being said, your argument has no legitimacy for two reason. One, you have absolutely no evidence of what Hulk Hogan is going to want to do with the company. His only comments on the matte involve helping the young guys, so unless you've got an inside source you'd like to share with us I'm going to consider this valueless conjecture.

Sorry, shall I get my crystal ball out? Neither me or knows what Hogan’s going to do with the company you moron, it’s all just speculation until it happens and we can only work from past evidence, which showed that in WCW, he did the best he could to put him and his friends over.

Secondly, TNA already try to sign all the former WWE guys that they can get their hands on, so how the acquisition of Hogan changes that is beyond me.

To be fair to TNA, in the last few months they have slowed down the signing of ex-WWE and old hacks, but as soon as Hogan turns up, we hear, Flair, RVD, Nasty Boys etc. so its quite obvious that Hogan’s entrance HAS changed that.

What is with people and reserving these "secret arguments"? Seriously?

Was more of the fact that I was in a rush, but whatever.

That you know nothing about, and that all the evidence suggests is not the case.

That you know nothing about either, and your ‘evidence’ is pure assumption so don’t pawn it off as fact. Just because Sting gets paid one way, doesn’t mean Hogan will, so that’s merely assumption and opinion.

If he's young enough to work for Vince then he's certainly young enough to work for TNA.

He’s young enough to work one final match for Vince and the same goes for TNA, he’s an completely unproven at drawing when not wrestling.

That hold no relevance.

Injuries do hold relevance because they stop him from wrestling and since he’s TNA’s biggest name, not wrestling seems like a big negative.

That has repeatedly been shown not to be the case. Like I said, Vince wanted him for Mania, therefore he evidently is still over.

That’s Hogan’s big payoff match, which he’s now jeopardised, every legend get’s the payoff match, of course Vince wanted it, because like you say Hogan has a big name recognition, still doesn’t make him less old, less crippled or mean that he can draw without wrestling.

Yet more utterly groundless conjecture on your part.

Blah blah blah, don’t you get bored of saying the same thing trying to deflect? Everything you’ve said is ‘groundless conjecture’ so just stop trying to go somewhere with that.

________________________________________​

Now, what I have aimed to convey in this post, other than that my opponent is under the impression that his private conjecture counts as concrete fact in a debate situation, is the following.

As are you, you are throwing your valueless conjecture all over the place, apparently it’s okay for you and not for me. What you are conveying below is not fact, but opinion and obviously we aren’t going to know what Hogan will do until he does it.

Hogan will help TNA;
Draw.

Sure he could draw as a wrestler, but there’s no proof that he will as a 56 year old cripple who won’t wrestle on a regular basis.

Promote.

Sure he’ll promote himself. You said it yourself, everyone is out for themselves and Hogan has been known to self-promote more than anyone.

Recruit.

Again, not guaranteed again, he’s et to sign anyone and whatever Hogan says must be taken with a grain of salt. He can toss all the names around he wants, until he signs one, I’m not buying it.

Grow.

Not sold on this idea, in the short term he’ll gain a lot of publicity, but that doesn’t equal long term growth, especially if he pushes them too quick, we’ll be seeing WCW 2.0.

Succeed.

A ridiculous notion at this moment in time. TNA have to improve every single aspect of their show to even try and compete with the WWE and even then the WWE is known for crushing rival promotions, which it has always done and the record shows that they will most likely do it again.

All of this, with (as SK's post proves) no long term downside. I'd call this a pretty good deal personally

Are you really so naïve and desperate that you can’t even admit any downside, because that’s just ridiculous. I’d like to put it to the judges that Gelgarin is hiding behind saying that I am talking private conjecture, when he is doing exactly the same thing. He is trying to make you believe that what he is saying is fact, when it is not, please don’t fall for this weak strategy and Gelgarin maybe instead of rambling on about conjecture, how about you actually debate my points.

 

[Gelgarin]

Except that he was successful when he wasn’t a cripple. Sure, in his heyday he could draw, but if he can’t wrestle, exactly how is he going to draw? His name recognition is great for TNA in the short term, but just because he has a name, doesn’t mean he will make TNA successful, in fact other factors indicate that Hogan has a great potential to bring TNA down.

Do I really have to explain this? The presence of Hulk Hogan will attract a cross section of the audience that wouldn’t normally tune in. TNA has the opportunity to retain a portion of these viewers, thus increasing their share of the television audience. The more people watch the show the more money TNA are going to make, and the better position they are in for future expansion.

That is how Hulk Hogan’s presence translates into long term growth. You hurl the word “cripple” around a lot, and since you’re starting to sound like you might actually have convinced yourself, I’ll point out that you’re making shit up.

Hulk Hogan is evidently in better shape than you’re trying to make us believe… want proof? He’s recently booked an entire wrestling tour across Australia. If that’s not proof that he can work then I’m not sure what is.

Whilst I’m talking about his Australian tour, I might as well make another point. Later on you’re going to claim that Hogan doesn’t attract talent, and the Australian tour utterly disproves this. The presence of Hulk Hogan alone on this undertaking was enough to get guys like Ken Anderson, Umaga and Ric Flair to sign up with him. So there, evidence that Hogan attracts other workers.

Yes, we do know Hogan better than anyone in this business, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to success. So what your saying is TNA is trying to be WCW? Great, look what happened there

All right… 588 uninterrupted days as the undisputed top wrestling promotion in America. TV ratings that would make modern day WWE green with envy. The competition robbed of its top stars and almost put out of business.
All of that built in the space of a few years, built from a company not much bigger than TNA. Year, it’d be truly dreadful if TNA replicated that.

if Hogan makes TNA go up against WWE, there’s only going to be one winner, the WWE. TNA should try and grow slowly, making new stars, but instead they bring in the old hacks like Nash, Foley, Hogan, Booker and exactly emulate what WCW did.

Because that’s how you build a fan base. Want some evidence?
Let’s the Ring of Honor as an example. There you have a company doing exactly what you say, trying to grow slowly built upon their own talent. The result? Nobody outside of the IWC has a fucking clue that the company exists.

RoH and TNA were founded at roughly the same time. TNA has followed a business model based around a combination of young talent and established veterans. RoH has built its self exclusively around young talent. TNA has a long running TV show on a major network that draws up to a 1.3 on the Neilson index, and is financially stable enough to employ guys like Sting and Kurt Angle. RoH has a bush-league TV show on an obscure network that doesn’t even attract a high enough viewership to show up on the Neilson index, and top stars are fleeing that company like rats.

What does this show us? That the “old hacks” draw, whilst people nobody’s ever heard of don’t.

This, for me, is one of the reasons why Hogan is NOT good in the long term, he’ll push TNA to go up against WWE and they will lose, just like every other promotion, and that is an undisputable fact, no company has beaten the WWE.

Really? And here was me thinking that both WCW and Jim Corckett had them pinned to the ropes.

They can have as much media attention as they want, but that’s not going to help if the programming continues to be below average and TNA brings in more old hacks. Sure Hogan could bring some media attention, but that doesn’t mean TNA will use it effectively. This is just a short term benefit that your trying to use as a long term advantage. If TNA doesn’t step up their production quality, Hogan’s media attention will equate to nothing.

Ratings have constantly increased since TNA was founded. The show is able to retain and expand upon a significant audience that frequently outnumbers that of similarly positioned WWE programming. You might not like the show, but well over a million people continue to disagree with you every week.
You’ll forgive me if I take sustained ratings growth in a time when the top wrestling promotion in the country is losing viewers (~500,000 fewer people tuned into RAW each week in 2008 than in 2007) as better evidence of a promotions potential to grow than your personal opinion.

TNA has been successfully expanding its audience without getting any kind of mainstream attention, so logic dictates that the media hype that comes with Hogan is only going to help them grow faster.

Do you have any proof of this? Or this this you stating opinion as fact?

Proof aplenty; Hulk Hogan has got TNA plugs on NBC and other top networks, something that the company has never achieved before. I present Late Night with Jimmy Fallon as exhibit A. The top drawing “late night” program in America, that plays hosts to guests such as Robert DiNero, Donald Trump and HHH, recently had Hulk Hogan promoting TNA as a guest.

Ding. Ding. Ding. I guess.

Yeah, I’m not so sure about that, whilst he does get media attention, most of it is from wrestling websites/ magazines or bubba the love sponge

I have already proven this to be untrue.

Still I don’t get how that equates to success? Even if TNA get huge attention, their product isn’t any better. So while I agree Hogan’s introduction is good for short term attention, it doesn’t equal long term success if the product doesn’t improve.

This has also been proved wrong. Regardless of what cookie-cutter smarks think, TNA product is popular enough to retain and expand its audience. Currently the company is growing, but growing slowly. This suggests that what they need is more attention, which will help them to grow faster, and is precisely what Hulk Hogan can provide.

Cost-effective? How exactly is he cost-effective, I’m not going to say anything because calling Hogan cost-effective is completely unfounded and pure opinion.

No it’s not… if you get your reading comprehension in order you’ll see that I already backed this up. A singe 30 second advertisement in prime time would cost TNA ~$200,000. Do you think that they are paying Hulk Hogan $24,000,000 per hour, because if they’re not then he’s providing advertisement at a lower cost than it would otherwise cost.

But the key component here, is that he brought success to these companies, when he was wrestling. Hogan is completely unproven as a non-wrestler, especially in running a creative team, for all you now, he’ll completely bomb with lack of experience. So I fail to see how success whilst wrestling regularly equates to success in the booking of TNA.

Well his upcoming tour makes it pretty evident that he can still wrestle on a part time basis, making him no less functional than someone like Sting. The rest of the time he can easily work a Foley type gig as an on-screen character which is less of a positive for TNA than having him in the ring, but still a positive enough addition to win me the debate.

Shame this debate isn’t about Bischoff, completely irrelevant.

Wrong.
Bischoff is only going to TNA because of Hogan. He said six months ago that he had no desire to make the move. Bischoff’s presence in TNA is a direct result of the presence of Hulk Hogan, and therefore totally relevant to this debate.

Yes, let’s believe everything Hogan says, he’s going to bring in all this talent… sure, we’ll probably see the Nasty Boys & Flair (who’s contractually obligated) but just because Hogan says he’ll bring in new people, it’s not at all guaranteed so plese don’t say Hogan attracts talent until he actually does.

I’ve shown evidence for Kennedy, Umaga, Flair and RVD… three of whom he has already attracted in the past six months. Therefore I rather think that my case is valid.

Well, I guess you’d be good at it considering how many misconceptions you promote.

You’d think that if that were the case you’d have been able to counter a few with valid evidence. You can insist that my argument has holes in it all you like, but this far all you’ve been able to do to counter it so far is show the world that you struggle to differentiate between information and opinion and insist that the primary first hand sources I reference are unreliable “because you say so”.

So your telling me Hogan has gone to TNA and jeopardised his big WWE payoff, for no money? Yes, great assumption there, now whilst I obviously don’t know how much he’ll be getting, I’m sure he’ll be in the top pay bracket of the company, you can try and refute this all you want, but everybody knows Hogan doesn’t do shit for free.

No, read again. I’m telling you that the wrestling media and Hogan’s personal friends both suggest that he has been given a stake in the company… as such tying his earning to the success he brings TNA.
Your original point was that he was too expensive, which you’ve now totally undermined by claiming that he’s probably earning the same as Sting, but I digress. I countered that argument that pointing out that all the evidence suggests that this is not the case.

Dave Meltzar and Bubba the Love Sponge may not be the most reliable sources when it comes to wrestling, but I’ll take both of them over “SK’s uninformed opinion” any day of the week.

Oh, you can guarantee it? Well I guess it’s settled then. But let me get this straight, your allowed to make assumptions and guarantee things about Hogan’s wages and I’m not, that’s a little bit hypocritical.

Not really… I back my conjecture up with historical evidence instead of just saying “Everyone knows _____” and leaving it at that. Spike TV were willing to help pay for Sting. Hogan is a biggest star than Sting. Spike TV were a major part of Hogan’s press conference and were brought up several times… the evidence certainly suggests that, if Hogan is getting a big money contract, then Spike is helping to finance it.

Explain to me how it isn’t.

What? How does that even make sense? Hulk Hogan hasn’t been wrestling in TNA for the past seven years and it hasn’t been the death of the company. The fact that Hulk Hogan can’t wrestling on a regular basis was your argument, and when asked to back it up that’s the best you can come up with?

He is the biggest name in wrestling, but that won’t want to make people tune in

Can you back that up with anything? I’ve already said how Hogan is clearly popular to warrant mainstream media attention, to have Vince McMahon trying to hire him, and to have set the wrestling community on fire with his announcement…

What’s your counter argument? Does it have anything to do with “because you say so” by any chance?

Hogan - Cena was meant to be the big send off for Hogan, one more match, every legend gets that, so just because wanted to use him to draw money one more time, doesn’t mean that he’ll be good for TNA.

So you concede that Hogan can still be used to draw money? As for your insight into Vince’s thought processes going into Wrestlemania… I suppose some kind of evidence would be out of the question?
Incidentally, out of 65 hall of famers, Vince has tried to book well under half a dozen of them for high profile Wrestemania matches after they were done with to company, so at least that part of your argument qualifies as being made up. The ones he has tried to reach out to (Guys like Hogan and Austin) and the guys who still draw.

You can ‘Oh please’ all you want, but if everyone says something, including ex-WWE/WCW employees, then it usually it has some truth to it. Hogan loves to put himself and Nash over. His time in WCW shows that.

Everyone says that Vince Russo is the worst booker in the history of the business, yet he’s brought nothing but success to TNA. Everyone says that Dixie Carter doesn’t know how to run a wrestling promotion, but she’s been a big success at the helm. Unless you’re going to back your assertion that Hogan is going to himself and his friends over up with some physical evidence then I’m not going to deal with it any more.

This far I’ve presented evidence of Hogan flat out “saying” that his intention is to assist young talent and help TNA grow. You don’t think he’s a reliable source, but since you can’t present anything better than your personal, uninformed opinion, I’m going to go with what he says for now.

So why wouldn’t he do it again? Just because he works in wrestling doesn’t make him a good booker or mean that TNA will be successful. How exactly does he know what’s good for business? Again this is pure opinion that you are presenting s fact. How exactly do you know that Hogan isn’t well off, what’s your source? I’m not saying he’ll piss TNA away on purpose, but he might make bad decisions due to what he believes is right.a

And again…

I say Hogan is not as well off as he was on account of six months of media stories about him being hit with court fees and his wife taking him to the cleaners in a messy divorce.
Seriously, before you call me out on the next titbit of trivia try taking thirty seconds to look it up yourself… it will save us both time in the long run.

Well my dear Gelgarin, this stategy of ‘throwing arguments against the wall’ has got me this far, so kindly don’t tell me how to debate and let the judges do that.

“Lol” comes to mind as a good response to that.

Well, thanks for putting words into my mouth. At what point did I say Hogan killed WCW?

At what point did I claim that you did?

Although he did have a big part in the companies decline.

Ahh, now I can claim you said it.
And you’ve been watching The Death of WCW too many times if you think Hogan contributed to it. WCW being on a network that was flat out adamant about not wanting a wrestling show killed WCW… it’s relaly very simple.

Sorry, shall I get my crystal ball out? Neither me or knows what Hogan’s going to do with the company you moron, it’s all just speculation until it happens and we can only work from past evidence, which showed that in WCW, he did the best he could to put him and his friends over.

Moron…?

You really are throwing your toys out of the crib now aren’t you? I’m actually moved to check for a moment that you’re not taking this too seriously… tearing your posts apart ceases to be fun if you’re going to get upset about it.

As for your point, past evidence shows that Hogan has made companies bigger by his very presence, go read the Wikipedia articles for WWE, WCW and AWA if you have any doubt.

To be fair to TNA, in the last few months they have slowed down the signing of ex-WWE and old hacks, but as soon as Hogan turns up, we hear, Flair, RVD, Nasty Boys etc. so its quite obvious that Hogan’s entrance HAS changed that.

Do you even watch TNA?
Bobby Lashley.
Trevor Murdoch.
Victoria.
Elisha Burke.
Taz.
Steven Richards.
Raven.
And now possibly Shannon Moore.
Evidently not. Argument refuted.

Was more of the fact that I was in a rush, but whatever.

Tough 24 hours was it?

That you know nothing about either, and your ‘evidence’ is pure assumption so don’t pawn it off as fact. Just because Sting gets paid one way, doesn’t mean Hogan will, so that’s merely assumption and opinion.

I’ve already dealt with this.

He’s young enough to work one final match for Vince and the same goes for TNA, he’s an completely unproven at drawing when not wrestling

This too. Australian tour suggests that he will be wrestling to a greater or lesser extent.

Injuries do hold relevance because they stop him from wrestling and since he’s TNA’s biggest name, not wrestling seems like a big negative.

Except they don’t stop him from wrestling. How you can repeat something that has been proven to be untrue so many times in one post is beyond me.

Blah blah blah, don’t you get bored of saying the same thing trying to deflect? Everything you’ve said is ‘groundless conjecture’ so just stop trying to go somewhere with that.

Really, I’ve presented facts. You might be unfamiliar with the concept, so I’ll briefly explain. It’s what I include in my posts where you put your sulking.

I’m going to break this down, but since you’ve called me a moror, I’m going to cease calling you out for conjecture and start calling a spade a spade… in other words I’m going to list some of the lies you’ve been telling.

We’ve talked about Hogan’s ability to wrestle.
You have lied that his is a cripple who can’t work.
I have shown that he is booking his own wrestling tour, and quite obviously can work.

We’ve talked about Hogan’s popularity.
You have lied that Hogan is old news and is not popular any more.
I have shown that Vince wanted to hire him for Wrestlemania, meaning he obviously is stil popular.

We’ve talked about Hogan’s ability to generate media.
You have lied that most of his attention comes from Dirtsheets.
I have shown that Hogan has been promoting TNA on some of the top shows on America’s most watched networks.

I’m pretty sure I could go on, but since I’ve already made all of this evident throughout the debate I’m disinclined to repeat myself again.

Are you really so naïve and desperate that you can’t even admit any downside, because that’s just ridiculous. I’d like to put it to the judges that Gelgarin is hiding behind saying that I am talking private conjecture, when he is doing exactly the same thing. He is trying to make you believe that what he is saying is fact, when it is not, please don’t fall for this weak strategy and Gelgarin maybe instead of rambling on about conjecture, how about you actually debate my points.

Make some points and I’ll debate them. Alternate between throwing opinions and throwing tantrums and I’ll wrap this up now.
The judges have repeatedly shown themselves not to be idiots, and since only one of us in this debate has gone any way towards presenting facts and information, I’m not too worried about your little plea.

Feel free to try again… in fact I’d personally recommend that you do.

 

[SK]

Do I really have to explain this? The presence of Hulk Hogan will attract a cross section of the audience that wouldn’t normally tune in. TNA has the opportunity to retain a portion of these viewers, thus increasing their share of the television audience. The more people watch the show the more money TNA are going to make, and the better position they are in for future expansion.

That’s not explaining it at all though. How will TNA retain the portion of viewers, when the programming is so far no different. TNA isn’t inaccessible, everyone is able to watch it and most Hogan and wrestling fans will have given it a shot, so just because Hogan can create an initial burst of media attention and potential viewers, doesn’t necessarily mean that TNA will retain them.

That is how Hulk Hogan’s presence translates into long term growth. You hurl the word “cripple” around a lot, and since you’re starting to sound like you might actually have convinced yourself, I’ll point out that you’re making shit up.

If he isn’t a cripple and is able to wrestle on a regular basis, why hasn’t he been wrestling regularly for the last 7 years? I think it’s a bit foolish to claim that Hogan doesn’t have injuries and isn’t at high risk of injuries because if he didn’t, he would be wrestling regularly, and one small wrestling tour doesn’t count for wrestling regularly.

Hulk Hogan is evidently in better shape than you’re trying to make us believe… want proof? He’s recently booked an entire wrestling tour across Australia. If that’s not proof that he can work then I’m not sure what is.

He can work very sporadically, this tour was just Hogan keeping himself somewhat relevant. One small tour doesn’t mean that he can wrestle weekly for TNA and if you think he can well then your being naïve.

Whilst I’m talking about his Australian tour, I might as well make another point. Later on you’re going to claim that Hogan doesn’t attract talent, and the Australian tour utterly disproves this. The presence of Hulk Hogan alone on this undertaking was enough to get guys like Ken Anderson, Umaga and Ric Flair to sign up with him. So there, evidence that Hogan attracts other workers.

Just because he’s attracted a few wrestlers (only unsigned guys) to his small tour, doesn’t mean that they’ll follow him to TNA (apart from Flair who might have to due to contract). Kennedy has already been reported to have turned TNA down and hold out for a place back in the WWE. These guys would obviously go for Hogan’s tour, because it means a pay check for a small amount of work without being tied down. However, it doesn’t show that they will sign for TNA at all.

All right… 588 uninterrupted days as the undisputed top wrestling promotion in America. TV ratings that would make modern day WWE green with envy. The competition robbed of its top stars and almost put out of business.
All of that built in the space of a few years, built from a company not much bigger than TNA. Year, it’d be truly dreadful if TNA replicated that.

Maybe not, but it would be truly dreadful if TNA ceased to exist. Please, your not actually trying to imply that WCW is a success? If it was, it would have beaten the WWE or at least still be here today, why oh why would TNA want to replicate a company that went out of business?

Because that’s how you build a fan base. Want some evidence?
Let’s the Ring of Honor as an example. There you have a company doing exactly what you say, trying to grow slowly built upon their own talent. The result? Nobody outside of the IWC has a fucking clue that the company exists.

The WWE started in 1953, it didn’t become the number one promotion until the 70’s and even then had competition from the territories. TNA started in 2003, now please tell me how you expect them to be challenging the WWE already? That is not natural growth or progression, it’s forced and it puts TNA under huge pressure and like WCW, which was also pushed too quickly, will end up crushing itself. If your trying to argue that wrestling promotions should be huge and be challenging the WWE within 6 years of starting, you are being ridiculous. TNA is younger than it’s viewers, it should be allowed to grow and create stars properly instead of Hogan coming in and demanding that they challenge the WWE already.

RoH and TNA were founded at roughly the same time. TNA has followed a business model based around a combination of young talent and established veterans. RoH has built its self exclusively around young talent. TNA has a long running TV show on a major network that draws up to a 1.3 on the Neilson index, and is financially stable enough to employ guys like Sting and Kurt Angle. RoH has a bush-league TV show on an obscure network that doesn’t even attract a high enough viewership to show up on the Neilson index, and top stars are fleeing that company like rats.

TNA was growing steadily, increasing ratings, being slightly diverse from the WWE and at the same time building new stars like Styles, Daniels, Joe, Sabin, Shelley, Hernandez. I never said TNA should go the way of ROH, but they shouldn’t be pushed to challenge the WWE already, they are nowhere near ready and all because Hogan says so, they are now the lamb to the proverbial slaughter.

Really? And here was me thinking that both WCW and Jim Corckett had them pinned to the ropes.

Again, were they successful? No, the WWE beat them and if TNA tries to emulate either promotion, they will end up out of business aswell.

Ratings have constantly increased since TNA was founded. The show is able to retain and expand upon a significant audience that frequently outnumbers that of similarly positioned WWE programming. You might not like the show, but well over a million people continue to disagree with you every week.

When did I say I din’t like TNA? I just said it was poor production quality, which it is. I’m not denying that TNA’s ratings have continued to increase and I believe that they would do naturally as they have done without Hogan trying to push them for high short term ratings, risking long term failure.

You’ll forgive me if I take sustained ratings growth in a time when the top wrestling promotion in the country is losing viewers (~500,000 fewer people tuned into RAW each week in 2008 than in 2007) as better evidence of a promotions potential to grow than your personal opinion.

As I’ve said already numerous times, that growth was natural, as it should be. TNA does have potential, but it’s 6 years old, if it was left for another 5-10 years, it could then seriously challenge the WWE. However, now what scenario we get is Hogan wanting to push TNA to challenge the WWE already, which might be good for the short term, but promotions like WCW show us that it will most likely equate to long term failure.

TNA has been successfully expanding its audience without getting any kind of mainstream attention, so logic dictates that the media hype that comes with Hogan is only going to help them grow faster.

They will grow fast in the short term, but not necessarily in the long term, especially if they end up going out of business.

This has also been proved wrong. Regardless of what cookie-cutter smarks think, TNA product is popular enough to retain and expand its audience. Currently the company is growing, but growing slowly. This suggests that what they need is more attention, which will help them to grow faster, and is precisely what Hulk Hogan can provide.

Why do you think that rapid growth equals success? I never argued that TNA wasn’t slowly growing, but I will argue that when companies are forced to grow too quickly, they don’t develop and end up failing, as seen with WCW.

No it’s not… if you get your reading comprehension in order you’ll see that I already backed this up. A singe 30 second advertisement in prime time would cost TNA ~$200,000. Do you think that they are paying Hulk Hogan $24,000,000 per hour, because if they’re not then he’s providing advertisement at a lower cost than it would otherwise cost.

Firstly, can you please give evidence as to the cost your stating, how am I supposed to take this figure at face value, source please.

Secondly, When did I say that TNA would be paying Hogan $24,000,000? I think it would be idiotic to think that Hogan would be going to TNA for no money. Hogan signing with TNA completely jeopardises any WWE payoff he could potentially get, he therefore needs to be compensated for this, for his media attention and money to keep up his expensive lifestyle.

Well his upcoming tour makes it pretty evident that he can still wrestle on a part time basis, making him no less functional than someone like Sting. The rest of the time he can easily work a Foley type gig as an on-screen character which is less of a positive for TNA than having him in the ring, but still a positive enough addition to win me the debate.

You think that Hogan will wrestle as much as Sting? That’s a ridiculous assumption to say the least. Sting has been wrestling regularly for over a year now and has called off his retirement plans and looks in good shape, having no big injury worries. Hogan on the other hand hasn’t wrestled regularly for 7 years, and has stated in interviews that this is due to injuries.

Wrong.
Bischoff is only going to TNA because of Hogan. He said six months ago that he had no desire to make the move. Bischoff’s presence in TNA is a direct result of the presence of Hulk Hogan, and therefore totally relevant to this debate.

You don’t know that Bischoff wouldn’t have gone without Hogan, maybe he even talked Hogan into going. Anyway, Bischoff no doubt wants TNA to go up against the WWE as well, trying to make them grow too quickly, affecting chances of long term success.

I’ve shown evidence for Kennedy, Umaga, Flair and RVD… three of whom he has already attracted in the past six months. Therefore I rather think that my case is valid.

But he hasn’t attracted them to TNA has he? Not one of these wrestlers has signed to TNA and until one does, then I’ll address it.

You’d think that if that were the case you’d have been able to counter a few with valid evidence. You can insist that my argument has holes in it all you like, but this far all you’ve been able to do to counter it so far is show the world that you struggle to differentiate between information and opinion and insist that the primary first hand sources I reference are unreliable “because you say so”.

HAHA, You have referenced NO sources at all! You haven’t referenced anything or given one single source. What I’ve said is that you are stating opinion and assumption as fact, and I’ve countered every one of your points so far, as is plain to see by just reading.

Your original point was that he was too expensive, which you’ve now totally undermined by claiming that he’s probably earning the same as Sting, but I digress. I countered that argument that pointing out that all the evidence suggests that this is not the case.

YOU said that Hogan would have the same sort of deal as Sting (see below)

To add to that, it was made public last year that Spike TV pay a major portion of Sting's wage bill because they see him as an asset to the network. If they're willing to pay for Sting then I can guarantee that they'll pay for Hogan

So no, I didn’t say that, you did, so you therefore didn’t counter my argument and instead just rambled. (PS, you could probably use some of those ‘primary first hand sources you reference’ when making guarantees like the one above)

Dave Meltzar and Bubba the Love Sponge may not be the most reliable sources when it comes to wrestling, but I’ll take both of them over “SK’s uninformed opinion” any day of the week.

I never said that they weren’t reliable, I just said that they’ve been Hogan’s main source of media attention.

Not really… I back my conjecture up with historical evidence instead of just saying “Everyone knows _____” and leaving it at that. Spike TV were willing to help pay for Sting. Hogan is a biggest star than Sting. Spike TV were a major part of Hogan’s press conference and were brought up several times… the evidence certainly suggests that, if Hogan is getting a big money contract, then Spike is helping to finance it.

You’ve given no evidence whatsoever. You’ve merely just used names, you need to reference if your going to claim something is evidence, simply saying ‘Spike TV’ doesn’t make something evidence and it certainly doesn’t make it true.

What? How does that even make sense? Hulk Hogan hasn’t been wrestling in TNA for the past seven years and it hasn’t been the death of the company. The fact that Hulk Hogan can’t wrestling on a regular basis was your argument, and when asked to back it up that’s the best you can come up with?

No that’s not my explanation for Hogan not wrestling being a negative. My explanation is that Hogan not wrestling does not provide an adequate draw or incentive for fans to tune in, just because Hogan drew when he was a wrestler, doesn’t mean he can draw when he’s not wrestling regularly.

Can you back that up with anything? I’ve already said how Hogan is clearly popular to warrant mainstream media attention, to have Vince McMahon trying to hire him, and to have set the wrestling community on fire with his announcement…

Can YOU back that up with anything? I mean, have you got any of those primary first hand sources lying around that McMahon actually did want to hire Hogan for Wrestlemania, or just wrestling websites and magazines rumours?

So you concede that Hogan can still be used to draw money? As for your insight into Vince’s thought processes going into Wrestlemania… I suppose some kind of evidence would be out of the question?

He could be used at Wrestlemania to draw yes, but as an infrequent wrestler on a smaller show, he would draw nowhere near the same amount.

Incidentally, out of 65 hall of famers, Vince has tried to book well under half a dozen of them for high profile Wrestemania matches after they were done with to company, so at least that part of your argument qualifies as being made up. The ones he has tried to reach out to (Guys like Hogan and Austin) and the guys who still draw.

The bigger the legend, the bigger the send-off, if your Ric Flair, you go out at Wrestlemania, if your Ricky Steamboat, it’s at a smaller PPV or on Raw, it’s all relevant. Most able-bodied HoFers get at least one payoff fight, I never said that it had to be at Wrestlemania.

Everyone says that Vince Russo is the worst booker in the history of the business, yet he’s brought nothing but success to TNA. Everyone says that Dixie Carter doesn’t know how to run a wrestling promotion, but she’s been a big success at the helm. Unless you’re going to back your assertion that Hogan is going to himself and his friends over up with some physical evidence then I’m not going to deal with it any more.

Exactly, Dixie Carter does know how to run a wrestling promotion, but Hogan coming in and trying to pus TNA to challenge the WWE will ruin the whole thing. As for physical evidence, I don’t think you can be calling me on that one when you provide none yourself.

This far I’ve presented evidence of Hogan flat out “saying” that his intention is to assist young talent and help TNA grow. You don’t think he’s a reliable source, but since you can’t present anything better than your personal, uninformed opinion, I’m going to go with what he says for now.

When and where did he say he was going to push young talent exactly? And I think I’m quite informed actually

I say Hogan is not as well off as he was on account of six months of media stories about him being hit with court fees and his wife taking him to the cleaners in a messy divorce.
Seriously, before you call me out on the next titbit of trivia try taking thirty seconds to look it up yourself… it will save us both time in the long run.

This just adds to my argument that Hogan must be getting paid a high amount to keep up with his expensive lifestyle, I mean if he’s so poor, he can’t have that much of a financial stake in the company now can he.

“Lol” comes to mind as a good response to that.

And the, ‘because you know I’m right’ response comes to mind here.

And you’ve been watching The Death of WCW too many times if you think Hogan contributed to it. WCW being on a network that was flat out adamant about not wanting a wrestling show killed WCW… it’s relaly very simple.

Only seen it once actually mate. But, it’s my opinion that Hogan did contribute to the death of WCW, and it’s yours that he didn’t.

Moron…?

You really are throwing your toys out of the crib now aren’t you? I’m actually moved to check for a moment that you’re not taking this too seriously… tearing your posts apart ceases to be fun if you’re going to get upset about it.

Damn, Gelgarin your no fun, thought you’d at least react a little bit… moron (I take nothing except football too seriously lol)

As for your point, past evidence shows that Hogan has made companies bigger by his very presence, go read the Wikipedia articles for WWE, WCW and AWA if you have any doubt.

But this was when he was a wrestler, if he won’t be wrestling regularly in TNA, how do you know he will be successful?

Do you even watch TNA?
Bobby Lashley.
Trevor Murdoch.
Victoria.
Elisha Burke.
Taz.
Steven Richards.
Raven.
And now possibly Shannon Moore.
Evidently not. Argument refuted.

Shit did I say sign? I meant push. In the last few months we’ve seen TNA give the younger guys a push (AJ, Hernandez, Daniels etc.) As soon as Hogan turns up we hear about Flair, The Nasty Boys, RVD.

Tough 24 hours was it?

Well, considering I had 7 hours of uni and an additional 4 hours of work, I’ll go with yes.

This too. Australian tour suggests that he will be wrestling to a greater or lesser extent.

No it doesn’t, just because he has one small tour lined up, why does that mean he will wrestle regularly in TNA, when he hasn’t for the past 7 years.

Except they don’t stop him from wrestling. How you can repeat something that has been proven to be untrue so many times in one post is beyond me.

They’ve stopped him for the last 7 years. Are you really trying to argue that Hogan will be wrestling regularly?

Really, I’ve presented facts. You might be unfamiliar with the concept, so I’ll briefly explain. It’s what I include in my posts where you put your sulking.

No you’ve presented opinion and assumption as fact by name-dropping.

I’m going to break this down, but since you’ve called me a moror, I’m going to cease calling you out for conjecture and start calling a spade a spade… in other words I’m going to list some of the lies you’ve been telling.

Go ahead, spade.

We’ve talked about Hogan’s ability to wrestle.
You have lied that his is a cripple who can’t work.
I have shown that he is booking his own wrestling tour, and quite obviously can work.

This doesn’t prove that he can or will wrestle regularly in TNA. If he could and is such a huge draw, why hasn’t he been wrestling regularly for the past 7 years.

We’ve talked about Hogan’s popularity.
You have lied that Hogan is old news and is not popular any more.
I have shown that Vince wanted to hire him for Wrestlemania, meaning he obviously is stil popular.

You have quoted a rumour as a fact, and you can’t prove that Vince actually did want him at Wrestlemania.

We’ve talked about Hogan’s ability to generate media.
You have lied that most of his attention comes from Dirtsheets.
I have shown that Hogan has been promoting TNA on some of the top shows on America’s most watched networks.

Great, he’s also using this to try and push TNA too quickly, much like WCW was, and if pushed to quickly will go the same way as WCW.

I’m pretty sure I could go on, but since I’ve already made all of this evident throughout the debate I’m disinclined to repeat myself again.

In a nutshell, running out of arguments?

Make some points and I’ll debate them. Alternate between throwing opinions and throwing tantrums and I’ll wrap this up now.
The judges have repeatedly shown themselves not to be idiots, and since only one of us in this debate has gone any way towards presenting facts and information, I’m not too worried about your little plea.

Okay I’ll oblige and make some more points. I never once said the judges were idiots, but instead wanted to highlight the fact that you are claiming that you have facts and are referencing, when you clearly aren’t. It’s not a plea, it’s just trying to negate your notion that you are presenting facts, when infact what they are is assumptions and opinions.

________________________________________​

So, now that I’ve responded to all your points Gelgarin, I feel I should introduce some other negatives for TNA in the long term, call these my ‘reserved secret arguments’ if you want lol. However, unlike you I am going to reference my points so that you don’t have to use your go-to ‘conjecture’ rant,

5. Hogan is one of the most polarizing characters in the wrestling business.
This is quite an obvious one as most people in this business are. But already with the signing of Hogan, Russo’s job is in doubt because of their relationship and according to Gelgarin, Russo has been central to TNA, so him losing his job would be a huge negative of the Hogan signing.
http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/exclusive-more-news-on-hogan-bischoff-signing-w-tna-88983/2 (Reports that Russo feels disrespected by Hogan and may leave.)

Below is a quote about wrestlers already being worried about Hogan, who he will bring in and that TNA will turn into WCW 2.0. (http://wrestlerealm.com/tna-wrestlers’-reactions-to-hogan-bischoff-russo-more/)

There is a wide range of emotions amongst the wrestlers in the company about the news. More than one wrestler has expressed fear that TNA would become all about Hogan and friends, such as Brutus Beefcake and The Nasty Boys. However, others have expressed optimism that the duo of Hogan and Bischoff could open new doors in the business world for the company. Some wrestlers were excited by the possibility of working with Hogan in the ring, even if it means putting him over.

The biggest fear with most of the wrestlers in TNA is that the company will become like WCW, in that older wrestlers receive almost all of the spotlight. It’s been described as a “roller coaster” for the TNA roster by one source, since it felt like they were finally getting their chance to shine when Vince Russo was put in charge of creative and he made it clear he was going through with his youth movement. So far movement is being labelled a success within the company, as Russo has pushed the three names Dixie Carter gave him (AJ Styles, Matt Morgan and Hernandez) to create into new marquee names.

6. Hogan is already and will continue to push TNA too quickly.
TNA are already set to start making a Monday night show (http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/breaking-exclusive-tna-to-debut-new-monday-night-show-89021) that will try to compete with the WWE. Now, while this may be all well and good in the short term, companies with too rapid growth often do not develop successfully and often fail. This is even more evident in the wrestling business, the WWE had to grow for 15+ years before competing properly, but when WCW tried to compete with the WWE straight away and look what happened. It was great in the short term but ultimately the company could not cope and eventually died out.

7. Hogan is emotionally unstable
http://www.btls.com/news/stories/hulk-hogan-says-he-considered-suicide-after-breakup.html
Hogan himself admitted to nearly committing suicide whilst on radio. This shows that Hogan is obviously emotionally unstable, and surely this will have a huge affect on his professional life and hinder his ability to book TNA properly.

I await Gelgarin’s response.

 

[Gelgarin]

That’s not explaining it at all though. How will TNA retain the portion of viewers, when the programming is so far no different. TNA isn’t inaccessible, everyone is able to watch it and most Hogan and wrestling fans will have given it a shot, so just because Hogan can create an initial burst of media attention and potential viewers, doesn’t necessarily mean that TNA will retain them.

All right, for a start I think the assertion that the majority of Wrestling fans have watched TNA is a trifle ridiculous. Most of the IWC has seen it, but your typical wrestling very probably doesn't know that it exists.
TNA is accessible, but it's not promoted. Outside of wrestling websites and Spike TV itself there is basically no advertising for TNA.

That being said, there's little need to debate this point, since I was referring equally to people who don't watch wrestling any more. Last weeks RAW (most watched wrestling show in America) drew a 3.1 on the Nielson index. When Hulk Hogan was in his prime wrestling could draw as high as a 5.5 in a timeslot with direct competition.

What this suggests is that there is a massive bulk of wrestling fans who deserted the product after the Monday Night Wars ended (presumably because they didn't like to product that Vince was pushing) some of whome may be drawn back when they here about Hogan in TNA.
If TNA, after a Hogan fuelled media blitz could attract 10% of that audience then it would raise their average ratings by almost half. Even if half of them don't stick around, it is still constitute a ratings increase comparable to the one TNA has spent the past three years obtaining.

That's without taking into account the pre-existing market of WWE fans. Right now people are turning away from the WWE. They lost 0.3 on the Nielson rating in 2007 and 0.4 in 2008. This tells us that there is a large quantity of people who enjoy wrestling but don't want to watch WWE. Hogan in TNA might convince these people to give the competition a try (or at least tell them that the competition exists) and provide TNA with a new, accessible market of fans.

If he isn’t a cripple and is able to wrestle on a regular basis, why hasn’t he been wrestling regularly for the last 7 years? I think it’s a bit foolish to claim that Hogan doesn’t have injuries and isn’t at high risk of injuries because if he didn’t, he would be wrestling regularly, and one small wrestling tour doesn’t count for wrestling regularly.

So let me get this straight... anyone who hasn't been wrestling for a few years is a cripple? Sting was out of the business for a comparable length of time and he did all right. So was Foley.
There's this phantom creature called retirement, which I think offers a perfectly valid reason why Hogan has been outside the ring for a few years.

He can work very sporadically, this tour was just Hogan keeping himself somewhat relevant. One small tour doesn’t mean that he can wrestle weekly for TNA and if you think he can well then your being naïve.

As for the tour, it's multiple gigs over a short space of time across a large area. That sounds to me to be considerably more taxing on the body than TNA's spectacularly light schedule that will essentially demand 5 days a month, with no compulsion to wrestle on half of them (Foley and Nash for example have both worked zero matches since Bound for Glory).

He's not going to be up to much in the ring, but realistically speaking when has he ever? Early on in his career Hogan discovered that he could entertain fans with charisma in place of physicality, and he's been doing so ever since.
If Keven Nash can still work a decent match on his seven-hundred-and-forty-five time surgically repaired knees then I'm not worried about Hogan.

Just because he’s attracted a few wrestlers (only unsigned guys) to his small tour, doesn’t mean that they’ll follow him to TNA (apart from Flair who might have to due to contract). Kennedy has already been reported to have turned TNA down and hold out for a place back in the WWE. These guys would obviously go for Hogan’s tour, because it means a pay check for a small amount of work without being tied down. However, it doesn’t show that they will sign for TNA at all.

A few points in response to this.

For a start, even if you're correct and Hogan only brings in Ric Flair, that's a pretty massive acquisition for TNA. An extremely popular veteran who can still work and would represent a tremendous coup from the competition.

Secondly, no it doesn't confirm that the names listed will show up in TNA, doing that would require super powers that not even I have access to. What it does confirm however is that Hogan makes for an attractive environment. Most of the names listed haven't exactly been biting at the gate to go on tours of show up on the indy scene, but the moment an event with Hogan is scheduled suddenly the big free agents start coming out of the woodwork.

Maybe not, but it would be truly dreadful if TNA ceased to exist. Please, your not actually trying to imply that WCW is a success? If it was, it would have beaten the WWE or at least still be here today, why oh why would TNA want to replicate a company that went out of business?

It did beat WWE. For a time it was constantly drawing a significantly higher rating than the WWE. Then it fell by the wayside because AOL decided that they didn't want it on their network and sold it to Vince.

Are you seriously one of those people who thinks that the NWA was a failure because of its fall from grace? Sure it dominated the wrestling scene for years, but its not a key player "today" so it must have been a failure.
If in a couple of decades the WWE goes out of business will everything up to that point also become a failure?

WCW went from a small, practically regional promotion, to being the most watched wrestling promotion in the world, and that change in fortunes directly correlates to Hogan and Bischoff being at the helm of the company.
Years later the company was sold off, a change which directly correlates to the AOL/Time Warner merger, and had nothing to do with Hulk Hogan in the slightest.

The WWE started in 1953, it didn’t become the number one promotion until the 70’s and even then had competition from the territories. TNA started in 2003, now please tell me how you expect them to be challenging the WWE already? That is not natural growth or progression, it’s forced and it puts TNA under huge pressure and like WCW, which was also pushed too quickly, will end up crushing itself. If your trying to argue that wrestling promotions should be huge and be challenging the WWE within 6 years of starting, you are being ridiculous. TNA is younger than it’s viewers, it should be allowed to grow and create stars properly instead of Hogan coming in and demanding that they challenge the WWE already.

1953 isn't really accurate, The WWE proper was founded in 1963 when Toots and Vince Sr broke from the NWA due to misplaced faith in their ability to draw money with Buddy Rogers. Prior to that they were a part of a larger umbrella organisation.

Regardless, you clearly don't know your wrestling history. Even as the CWC the promotion was dominant. Within only a couple of years of the organisations conception Vince and Toots were already controlling 70% of the NWA's booking despite only marketing themselves to the east coast.

After the split in 63, still only competing on a regional level, they had the majority of the top drawing talents in the industry, Rogers, Rocca, Sammartino and Sheik. At that time only Lou Thesz could pull similar numbers, and once he stepped aside the WWWF were the undisputed top regional promotion.

As soon as the decision was made to compete in a national market the WWF became the biggest national promotion, and has remained such except for the period in which Hogan and Bischoff pushed WCW ahead of them.

Throughout it's entire existence the company has only had its market dominance threatened twice. Once by Jim Crockett in 62, and for a few years by WCW... so your assertion that it took them the best part of 20 years to become the top promotion in the US is totally untrue.

It's pretty much all here if you want it

TNA was growing steadily, increasing ratings, being slightly diverse from the WWE and at the same time building new stars like Styles, Daniels, Joe, Sabin, Shelley, Hernandez. I never said TNA should go the way of ROH, but they shouldn’t be pushed to challenge the WWE already, they are nowhere near ready and all because Hogan says so, they are now the lamb to the proverbial slaughter.

I'm not sure where Hogan has said anything about making an immediate, direct challenge to WWE. The only person thus far who has said anything about, for example, starting a Monday night show, is Mark Maddon, and he was almost immediately refuted by the rest of the wrestling media, including this site.

Linky de do da

Again, were they successful? No, the WWE beat them and if TNA tries to emulate either promotion, they will end up out of business aswell.

Were they successful? Yes. How exactly you can be the top promotion in the company and be a failure at the same time is a mystery to me.

When did I say I din’t like TNA? I just said it was poor production quality, which it is. I’m not denying that TNA’s ratings have continued to increase and I believe that they would do naturally as they have done without Hogan trying to push them for high short term ratings, risking long term failure.

Is he. His comments have been that he's there to help the young talent which doesn't sound hideously risky to me.

You seem to be of the opinion that TNA should simply stay the course and they'll consistently grow of their own accord. That's not how it works.

The NWA, ROH, OVW, CZW and a handful of others have all been staying the course for the past decade, and none of them have achieved anything. TNA, alone of this generations promotions, has gained an audience precisely because they have been pro-active. They have taking a TV deal despite not originally having the fan base to pull it off. They've invested big money in free agents like Angle, Russo and now Hogan, and in return they have gained exposer and fans. That's how the business works. Crossing your fingers and hoping just results in you, at the very best, staying in the same place.

As I’ve said already numerous times, that growth was natural, as it should be. TNA does have potential, but it’s 6 years old, if it was left for another 5-10 years, it could then seriously challenge the WWE. However, now what scenario we get is Hogan wanting to push TNA to challenge the WWE already, which might be good for the short term, but promotions like WCW show us that it will most likely equate to long term failure.

Promotions like WCW, tell me, what are these other promotions? WCW grew an a pronominal pace, beat the WWE to within an inch of its existence, became the tom promotion in the country, and even just before AOL sold the company off they were still in a better position than when they started.

They will grow fast in the short term, but not necessarily in the long term, especially if they end up going out of business.

So for a start, you concede that Hogan will help grow the company. That's good... for me. Now, please explain to me exactly how "signing Hulk Hogan" and "going out of business" are connected?

Why do you think that rapid growth equals success? I never argued that TNA wasn’t slowly growing, but I will argue that when companies are forced to grow too quickly, they don’t develop and end up failing, as seen with WCW.

Why did WCW's growth lead to its failure? The direct results of growth are an increased revenue, increased exposer and increased momentum. I can't see how any of those lead to collapse.

Firstly, can you please give evidence as to the cost your stating, how am I supposed to take this figure at face value, source please.

All right. It would have taken you approximately seven seconds to do a Google search, but since you asked.

Advertising rates for 06-07

That's from a couple of years ago, so the price may have grown since then.

Secondly, When did I say that TNA would be paying Hogan $24,000,000? I think it would be idiotic to think that Hogan would be going to TNA for no money. Hogan signing with TNA completely jeopardises any WWE payoff he could potentially get, he therefore needs to be compensated for this, for his media attention and money to keep up his expensive lifestyle.

You said that the advertisement from Hogan wasn't cost effective. I pointed out what a similar level of advertisement would cost as a financial investment, and it came for 200k for thirty seconds, which adds up for 24-million an hour.

Simple maths. Do you concede the point yet?

You think that Hogan will wrestle as much as Sting? That’s a ridiculous assumption to say the least. Sting has been wrestling regularly for over a year now and has called off his retirement plans and looks in good shape, having no big injury worries. Hogan on the other hand hasn’t wrestled regularly for 7 years, and has stated in interviews that this is due to injuries.

Has he? I know he's sated that the didn't do Mania because he blew his back, but beyond that the line he's always given is that he didn't like how he was being booked/paid by Vince. I believe his frequent line is that Vince wanted to "put him out to pasture". I'm not an agricultural man, but I don't think that means "I can't work because I'm crippled".

You don’t know that Bischoff wouldn’t have gone without Hogan, maybe he even talked Hogan into going. Anyway, Bischoff no doubt wants TNA to go up against the WWE as well, trying to make them grow too quickly, affecting chances of long term success.

Evidence that Bischoff didn't want to go to TNA

As for the rest of it, unless you have some kind of evidence for What Bischoff wants (he's been silent thus far) then I'm just going to dismiss it as guessing on your part.

But he hasn’t attracted them to TNA has he? Not one of these wrestlers has signed to TNA and until one does, then I’ll address it.

RVD has said that he finds TNA "more attractive" with Hogan.

I find it ironic that such a major part of your argument is build around throwing out things that Hogan has allegedly done over a decade ago, but when I throw out a confirmed president based on verifiable facts of something that he's done over the past six months, you counter with "Well he hasn't done it in TNA yet, so it doesn't count".

What would you do if I adopted that philosophy to all your WCW arguments?

HAHA, You have referenced NO sources at all! You haven’t referenced anything or given one single source. What I’ve said is that you are stating opinion and assumption as fact, and I’ve countered every one of your points so far, as is plain to see by just reading.

Are you trying to make me call you out for lying again?

YOU said that Hogan would have the same sort of deal as Sting

No, I didn't. I said that all the evidence suggested that Hogan had instead been given a stake in the company... you were the one who talked about his 'massive salary', and then climbed down saying that he's be paid the same as Sting.

I never said that they weren’t reliable, I just said that they’ve been Hogan’s main source of media attention.

Which I proved to be untrue. He's been on NBC and CNN over the past couple of weeks, and will be on CBS come November 18th. (On The Hour before you ask)

You’ve given no evidence whatsoever. You’ve merely just used names, you need to reference if your going to claim something is evidence, simply saying ‘Spike TV’ doesn’t make something evidence and it certainly doesn’t make it true.

I generally assume that, when I relay a fact, you will either question it or accept it. Sadly the custom of cheaper players in this debate seems to be to let information go by, then, at the last minute, throw a temper tantrum that I didn't provide a link to a Wikipedia article verifying that the sky is blue.

If you want a link then ask for one, don't wait until the closing sections of the debate and then decide to make an issue of it in the hope of stealing the points for research.

No that’s not my explanation for Hogan not wrestling being a negative. My explanation is that Hogan not wrestling does not provide an adequate draw or incentive for fans to tune in, just because Hogan drew when he was a wrestler, doesn’t mean he can draw when he’s not wrestling regularly.

He doesn't have to wrestle every week to draw though. We have proof that he can still work, so he only needs matches on some PPVs and the occasional TV outing to serve a purpose to TNA.
In addition, the idea that the most charismatic wrestler in the entire history of the industry won't be able to get over as an on screen character is laughable.

Can YOU back that up with anything? I mean, have you got any of those primary first hand sources lying around that McMahon actually did want to hire Hogan for Wrestlemania, or just wrestling websites and magazines rumours?

Interview with Hogan himself

It's also been posted on Wrestlezone over the past couple of weeks.

He could be used at Wrestlemania to draw yes, but as an infrequent wrestler on a smaller show, he would draw nowhere near the same amount.

Gosh! So you're saying that TNA isn't going to outdraw Wrestlemania? My word, well this has certainly changed my perspective of nothing.
TNA don't need to draw Mania numbers; one of the advantages to being a smaller company is that smaller increments of growth become more significant.

5000 Wrestlemania buys is nothing to the WWE, but the same number for TNA is massive.

The bigger the legend, the bigger the send-off, if your Ric Flair, you go out at Wrestlemania, if your Ricky Steamboat, it’s at a smaller PPV or on Raw, it’s all relevant. Most able-bodied HoFers get at least one payoff fight, I never said that it had to be at Wrestlemania.

Tell you what... if you can name... lets say... five different stars who fit this president then I'll ignore the other 60.

Exactly, Dixie Carter does know how to run a wrestling promotion, but Hogan coming in and trying to pus TNA to challenge the WWE will ruin the whole thing. As for physical evidence, I don’t think you can be calling me on that one when you provide none yourself.

Well that's a great excuse not to back up your posts. It's some kind of moral protest is it?

When and where did he say he was going to push young talent exactly? And I think I’m quite informed actually

Jimmy Fallon I think. I did direct you to the interview in my previous post. Here's a link since you stoically refuse to look anything up yourself

This just adds to my argument that Hogan must be getting paid a high amount to keep up with his expensive lifestyle, I mean if he’s so poor, he can’t have that much of a financial stake in the company now can he.

Err... noooo. Generially if somebody needs money then it will make them more willing to work for less, it's a novel concept called supply and demand.
Here's a Wikipedia article on the subject so that you can better yourself as a human being

Only seen it once actually mate. But, it’s my opinion that Hogan did contribute to the death of WCW, and it’s yours that he didn’t.

You got any logic behind yours? Mine is that AOL not wanting wrestling on their network motivated them to take wrestling off of their network. Yours is "because you say so".

But this was when he was a wrestler, if he won’t be wrestling regularly in TNA, how do you know he will be successful?

Educated guess. People didn't watch him for his in ring ability to begin with. He's still as charismatic as he ever way, and the media attention proves that he's just as big a star.

Shit did I say sign? I meant push. In the last few months we’ve seen TNA give the younger guys a push (AJ, Hernandez, Daniels etc.) As soon as Hogan turns up we hear about Flair, The Nasty Boys, RVD.

We've also seen Victoria move to the top of the knockout pecking order despite not being very good. Pope is being pushed alongside Morgan and Supermex. Lashley is dominating everyone he comes into contact with...

I'd pick something else to pretend you meant all along.

No it doesn’t, just because he has one small tour lined up, why does that mean he will wrestle regularly in TNA, when he hasn’t for the past 7 years.

I think we've done this already.

No you’ve presented opinion and assumption as fact by name-dropping.

Untrue (obviously), but even if it were, it would still rank me above you.

You have quoted a rumour as a fact, and you can’t prove that Vince actually did want him at Wrestlemania.

Allready have.

Great, he’s also using this to try and push TNA too quickly, much like WCW was, and if pushed to quickly will go the same way as WCW.

Top promotion in the country in five years? Looks like I win the debate then.

Okay I’ll oblige and make some more points. I never once said the judges were idiots, but instead wanted to highlight the fact that you are claiming that you have facts and are referencing, when you clearly aren’t. It’s not a plea, it’s just trying to negate your notion that you are presenting facts, when infact what they are is assumptions and opinions.

You really are a proponent of the "repetition equals truth" philosophy. You have challenged me in this post alone to back up my references and I have succeeded each and every time. In contrast, when asked to back up your arguments you have either made excuses (I don't have to because you haven't) or simply challenged me to prove that your assertion is wrong.

To paraphrase, you're a hypocrite, and not a terribly good one.

So, now that I’ve responded to all your points Gelgarin, I feel I should introduce some other negatives for TNA in the long term, call these my ‘reserved secret arguments’ if you want lol. However, unlike you I am going to reference my points so that you don’t have to use your go-to ‘conjecture’ rant,

You're aware that you've used the word conjecture twice as much as me in this debate right?

Incidentally, Might I applaud your sportsmanship. Most people try to bring their arguments up at the beginning so that they can be debated.
By waiting till we're most of the way thought the debate you prevent me from having to subject them to proper scrutiny. Thanks.

5. Hogan is one of the most polarizing characters in the wrestling business.
This is quite an obvious one as most people in this business are. But already with the signing of Hogan, Russo’s job is in doubt because of their relationship and according to Gelgarin, Russo has been central to TNA, so him losing his job would be a huge negative of the Hogan signing.

Go watch Hogan's MSG press conference. In the Q&A at the end he confirms that Russo's job is not in danger and that he has no problems working with him.
Even if Hulk Hogan is less reliable than the nameless source, he's brining Bischoff with him, so there's not exactly going to be a creative void.

6. Hogan is already and will continue to push TNA too quickly.
TNA are already set to start making a Monday night show that will try to compete with the WWE. Now, while this may be all well and good in the short term, companies with too rapid growth often do not develop successfully and often fail. This is even more evident in the wrestling business, the WWE had to grow for 15+ years before competing properly, but when WCW tried to compete with the WWE straight away and look what happened. It was great in the short term but ultimately the company could not cope and eventually died out.

Well this is full on inaccuracies. CWC had to grow for about two years before it was making twice the money of every other promotion. TNA are not commissioning a Monday night show, that idea's status is exactly the same as the all knockouts show and the x division show.

7. Hogan is emotionally unstable
Hogan himself admitted to nearly committing suicide whilst on radio. This shows that Hogan is obviously emotionally unstable, and surely this will have a huge affect on his professional life and hinder his ability to book TNA properly.

Year, because Vince McMahon is a rock of emotional stability isn't he?

Now it seems unlikely that I'm going to be given the chance to post again, so I'll post my closing remarks now, and you can wait till the last thirty seconds to post yours (we both knew it was coming anyway).

In this debate we have talked about a whole host of Hogan's attributes in relation to TNA.

We have talked about his popularity. SK has tried to tell you that Hogan isn't popular any more, but I have shown that the attention he is getting from the media, the fans and Vince McMahon proves this to be wrong.

We have talked about his ability to promote TNA. SK has tried to tell you that Hogan can't get media attention outside of the IWC. I have shown that he's plugged TNA on three of America's top networks.

He have talked about how Hogan attracts talent. SK has tried to tell you that he wont attract talent. I have shown that he may be bringing names like Ric Flair with him, and that people like RVD find TNA to be a more appealing prospect with him in it.

We have talked about his cost effectiveness. SK has flipped schizophrenically about regarding how much Hogan is getting paid. I've pointed out that he provides extremely cost effective advertising and that Spike are probably helping with his contract.

We have talked about Hogan's ability to wrestle. SK has tried to tell you that Hogan is a cripple who can't wrestler. I have shown that Hogan is taking wresting booking at this point in time, and evidently can wrestle.

SK's counterarguments involve a great deal of sulking, a spattering of refusing to back statements up with directly challenged, a pinch of inaccurate historical claims, a handful of assumptions and the words "WCW" and "conjecture" used as such a speed as to indicate some kind of assault weapon.#I've explained that by any reasonable standers that WCW was successful, but SK seems unable to grasp that the final year of a company's existence is not a judgement on that company's existence as a whole.

In my first post I claimed to be able to show how Hogan would help TNA to;

Draw.
Promote.
Recruit.
Grow.
Succeed.

I think I'm five for five.

 

[Mr. TM]

This debate has brought the best out of SK in this entire league. The reason? Gelgarin fucking pushed him.

Emotion: Easy one to give away most times with The G man here. Gelgarin does it again, but SK was forced to fight back. He lost out though, if he makes the next round, he has a chance to clear house.

Clarity of debate: SK kept it nice and clean. Gelgarin chopped up too much.

Punctuality: Gelgarin was late, SK was late, SK was late again, asked for time and didnt take it, but that is forgiveable. Have to give it to Gelgarin.

Information: Gelgarin was very subjective and defensive. It hurt him, but SK didnt stay firm, and Gelgarin took those points with information of his own.

Persuasion: Gelgarin fought hard here. SK fought here just as hard. What got the other person over? Well, Gelgarin had the other points pointing at himself. Did SK have what it takes to take this point?

Gelgarin battled SK's points with information. But Gelgarin failed in my books quite hard to battle with logic a lot of times. I bet Gelgarin knows this, and it showed in his emotionality throughout. SK gets this point, but I see this point getting split by the other judges if they judge it a different way.

Gelgarin 3-2 SK.

 

[CH David]

Clarity: This got really copy and pasty. Now both had very clear articulated opening posts, but I'm going to give this to SK for his final post and adding a few more points.

Point: SkeptiKal

Punctuality: Both were late. SK was late once more than Gelgarin.

Point: Gelgarin

Informative: This was kind of iffy in my opinion, but then both started busting out some articles and sources. Gelgarin used more than SK.

Point: Gelgarin

Emotionality: SK brought some fire, and Gelgarin brought the cool cocky attitude. Gelgarin always seems to win this point.

Point: Gelgarin

Persuasion: I have to admit, neither was really able to persuade me either way when it comes to long term success. I was leaning on both sides, but not conclusively. There are a lot of chances for TNA to improve long term with Hogan, but there are also a lot of ifs that go along with him. Nothing really to gain a sustainable answer right now, and nothing to persuade me to one given side.

Point: Split

CH David scores this Gelgarin 3.5, SkeptiKal 1.5.

 

[Blade]

Clarity: I found Gelgarin's posts to be pretty flawless. He gets the point here.

Emotion: Gelgarin kept his cool throughout, despite how most people would've gotten a little heated over some of SK's comments. Gelgar gets the point.

Punctuality: Late from SK. Well, more late than Gelgarin. Gelgar gets the point.

Informative: Neither guys brought in anything that wasn't already widely known by every wrestling fan. But SK kinda stuck to a WWE/TNA comfort zone, I think. Gelgarin gets the point.

Persusasion: Now, I'm torn on the actual topic of Hogan in TNA. Both sides have very valid points. But SK was making assumptions about what Hogan plans to do in TNA, debates shouldn't be built on assumptions. Either way, Gelgarin knocked them out of the proverbial park.

Gelgarin 5 SK 0

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

tdigle's Score

Gelgarin - 3
SK - 2

Extended comments will be up tomorrow.

 

[BooCocky]

My Score...

Gelgarin: 4
SK: 1

I will post why tomorrow...