Week 6: Lariat -versus- SkeptiKal

[Mr. TM]

Sting vs. the NWO or Steve Austin vs. the Corporation: which was the more successful storyline?

SkeptiKal is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

SK has been granted 24 hours.

 

[SK]

Hey Lariat, I'll take Austin vs. The Corporation. You can post first, sorry if I'm a bit late on my posts as I'm moving house this week but I'll try my best, good luck.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Finally...something down my wheelhouse. During this time, where Sting was fending off the NWO, the WCW was on top. That's the argument I'm going with.

During the Monday Night Wars, there were few entities that were popular. For the WCW, it was the NWO. For the WWE, it was Stone Cold and D-Generation X. The Corporation was merely a small part of the storylines in the WWF/E at the time, whereas the NWO was hitting its peak as one of the most influential stables in wrestling history. During this time, Hogan, Hall, Nash, and others were raising pure hell in the WCW, becoming its own promotion of sorts. The one person, the one wrestler who was still the embodiment of the WCW was Sting. Despite most of the WCW thinking that Sting was secretly a member of the NWO, Sting was still WCW through and through. But after being drove to the edge by the fans, and by most of his friends, Sting changed his gimmick. That’s right, Sting…one of the most beloved characters in wrestling, changed his gimmick. THAT alone makes this a bigger storyline than Stone Cold and the Corporation.

The opposing argument is that the Corporation/Stone Cold storyline helped Steve Austin become the Austin 3:16 character that put him in the Hall of Fame, but THIS storyline, the NWO v/s Sting WAS pro wrestling for a better part of a year. I know this, because I was smack dab in the middle of the Monday Night Wars as an avid wrestling fan. Sure, I’d watch Austin and Vince duel it out, but I was on the edge of my seat to find out of we’d see Sting come down the rafters and take out the New World Order. NO storyline was like this and had ever been done. A jaded former superstar, hanging in the rafters of the arena, watching as this poison of a stable just tear the WCW, a company that he helped catapult into the world spotlight, into shreds. The most intriguing storyline in wrestling during that era was what side Sting will choose; the nWo or WCW?

Another reason the Sting/NWO storyline was successful was an obvious one; the ratings. The ratings for WCW Monday Nitro during this storyline beat Monday Night Raw consistently during this time. Despite people watching Austin and McMahon going at it, MORE people were watching what Sting would do next. The NWO v/s WCW was so much more intriguing as a story in general, and adding Sting into the mix was the icing on the cake. What this storyline had done was cement Sting’s status as an icon, cement the NWO as one of the biggest factions in wrestling history. And when Sting finally came down from the rafters, with black ball bat in hand and took out the new world order one by one, it cemented the storyline as the most interesting at that time. Once this story was over, the WCW was over as far as ratings were concerned. Austin moved on to become an arch rival of D Generation X, became WWE Champion and carried the WWE mantle to a victory over WCW, but when Sting and the New World Order were at full stride, not even Austin’s overness could match the success of the WCW at the time.

 

[SK]

Sting vs. the NWO or Steve Austin vs. the Corporation: which was the more successful storyline?

Stone Cold Steve Austin vs. The Corporation was by far the more successful storyline.

This storyline is the single most popular, famous and well remembered storyline ever. Every wrestling fan knows who Stone Cold Steve Austin is, and he owes the majority of his recognition and fame to his feud with Vince McMahon and his Corporation. When Stone Cold Steve Austin stunned Vince McMahon for the first time, the image was immediately burned into every fans brain, the image was revolutionary and sparked one of the best feuds that the world of wrestling has ever seen. Now I can’t discredit Sting vs. The nWo, as that was also a fantastic storyline, however, it didn’t come close to matching up to Steve Austin vs. The Corporation, now let me give you my reasons as to why.

It was one of the most Revolutionary feuds ever.
Sure, we’d seen wrestlers have arguments with authority figures before, but here we have a top face physically assaulting the chairman of the company, Austin was a rebel that the fans loved to cheer, every time he stunned Vince, the fans went wild. There are so many other aspects as to why this feud was revolutionary, we had Austin pulling out guns, coming to the ring in beer trucks, becoming the CEO of the company, McMahon having to leave the company, first blood matches, Austin getting run over etc. Now I don’t think anyone could argue how revolutionary this feud was, it set the standard of entertainment in wrestling, the fans still cry out to see another McMahon vs. Austin like feud, it changed the face of wrestling.

It is arguably the most popular feud ever.
Without a doubt, it’s one of, if not the best feud wrestling has ever seen. It’s certainly the most memorable, when fans think of Austin, they think of him Stunning Vince or jumping off the beer truck and attacking him. This feud was right in the midst of the Monday Night Wars, and it kept WWE alive and competing with WCW’s new and edgy storylines. But, at the end of the day, this storyline still remains the most talked about and closest to the hearts of the fans in the attitude era. Austin vs. The Corporation was so good as it offered the fans a great storyline, great matches and a lot of variety with a huge choice of wrestlers and non wrestlers including;

* Stone Cold Steve Austin
* Gerald Brisco
* Pat Patterson
* Sgt. Slaughter
* Shane McMahon
* Vince McMahon
* The Big Bossman
* The Big Show
* Chyna
* Kane
* Ken Shamrock
* Mean Street Posse (Pete Gas, Rodney, and Joey Abs)
* The Rock
* Shawn Michaels
* Test
* Triple H

That is a huge list that offered some classic matches during this storyline. Not only were great matches offered, but memorable moments and edgy elements of this storyline including Austin being ambushed and put in an Ambulance, Vince McMahon being held at ‘gunpoint’, Austin becoming CEO of the WWE due to Linda McMahon and other moments like Big Show inadvertently throwing Austin through the cage to win the match. The feud also gave the WWE some of their highest ratings ever including an 8.1, a 7.2 and a 7.1, here are the ratings for RAW during the Austin vs. The Corporation storyline;

November 16, 1998 5.5
November 23, 1998 4.9
November 30, 1998 5.0
December 7, 1998 5.15
December 14, 1998 5.2
December 21, 1998 4.7
December 28, 1998 4.9

1999
Date Rating
January 4, 1999 5.7
January 11, 1999 5.5
January 18, 1999 5.6
January 25, 1999 5.5
February 1, 1999 5.9
February 8, 1999 Not On
February 15, 1999 5.9
February 22, 1999 5.5
February 29, 1999 6.3
March 8, 1999 6.4
March 15, 1999 5.8
March 22, 1999 6.4
March 29, 1999 6.5
April 5, 1999 5.8
April 12, 1999 6.3
April 19, 1999 6.1
April 26, 1999 6.0
May 3, 1999 6.4
May 10, 1999 8.1
May 17, 1999 6.4
May 24, 1999 7.2
June 7, 1999 6.7
June 14, 1999 6.7
June 21, 1999 6.0
June 28, 1999 6.8
July 5, 1999 6.2
July 12, 1999 5.97
July 19, 1999 6.3
July 26, 1999 7.1
August 2, 1999 5.9
August 9, 1999 6.4
August 16, 1999 6.6
August 23, 1999 5.9
August 30, 1999 4.2
September 6, 1999 4.4
September 13, 1999 6.0
September 20, 1999 6.1
September 27, 1999 6.8
October 4, 1999 5.9
October 11, 1999 6.1
October 18, 1999 5.4
October 25, 1999 5.6
November 1, 1999 5.9
November 8, 1999 5.4

They are some very high ratings, especially compared to today’s ratings, but even back in 1998/9, these were big ratings. I can appreciate that ratings don’t mean everything, but this storyline captured the wrestling worlds imagination and interest, and whilst Sting vs. the nWo might have been a great storyline, it is nowhere near as well remembered or idolised. The image of Austin stunning Vince is still used today on the WWE opening package, Austin vs. Vince’s Corporation will always be remembered for it’s imagination, edginess, revolutionary ideas and great matches.

 

[SK]

During the Monday Night Wars, there were few entities that were popular. For the WCW, it was the NWO. For the WWE, it was Stone Cold and D-Generation X. The Corporation was merely a small part of the storylines in the WWF/E at the time, whereas the NWO was hitting its peak as one of the most influential stables in wrestling history. During this time, Hogan, Hall, Nash, and others were raising pure hell in the WCW, becoming its own promotion of sorts. The one person, the one wrestler who was still the embodiment of the WCW was Sting. Despite most of the WCW thinking that Sting was secretly a member of the NWO, Sting was still WCW through and through. But after being drove to the edge by the fans, and by most of his friends, Sting changed his gimmick. That’s right, Sting…one of the most beloved characters in wrestling, changed his gimmick. THAT alone makes this a bigger storyline than Stone Cold and the Corporation.

I have to disagree Lariat, The Corporation wasn’t a small part, it was a year long storyline including some of the most famous moments in wrestling history. Sting vs. The nWo was a great feud, but it’s nowhere near as well remembered or as famous. The nWo vs. WCW was a big storyline, but Sting vs. nWo was a small part of that, the nWo vs. WCW had already got the ratings and when it first started, was a better storyline than the Sting one. But Austin vs. McMahon and the Corporation tops them both.

The opposing argument is that the Corporation/Stone Cold storyline helped Steve Austin become the Austin 3:16 character that put him in the Hall of Fame, but THIS storyline, the NWO v/s Sting WAS pro wrestling for a better part of a year. I know this, because I was smack dab in the middle of the Monday Night Wars as an avid wrestling fan. Sure, I’d watch Austin and Vince duel it out, but I was on the edge of my seat to find out of we’d see Sting come down the rafters and take out the New World Order. NO storyline was like this and had ever been done. A jaded former superstar, hanging in the rafters of the arena, watching as this poison of a stable just tear the WCW, a company that he helped catapult into the world spotlight, into shreds. The most intriguing storyline in wrestling during that era was what side Sting will choose; the nWo or WCW?

But surely you can’t argue that Sting vs. nWo was more revolutionary? I can accept that it was a good storyline, but all it was, was Sting changing his gimmick and hanging in the rafters, it wasn’t that revolutionary. Austin vs. McMahon saved the WWE and allowed them to compete, this storyline is also far more remembered than Sting vs. the nWo, the image of Austin stunning McMahon is one of the most famous in wrestling history. Sure, Sting’s gimmick change was a big thing, but Austin stunning and attacking McMahon was far bigger.

Another reason the Sting/NWO storyline was successful was an obvious one; the ratings. The ratings for WCW Monday Nitro during this storyline beat Monday Night Raw consistently during this time. Despite people watching Austin and McMahon going at it, MORE people were watching what Sting would do next. The NWO v/s WCW was so much more intriguing as a story in general, and adding Sting into the mix was the icing on the cake. What this storyline had done was cement Sting’s status as an icon, cement the NWO as one of the biggest factions in wrestling history. And when Sting finally came down from the rafters, with black ball bat in hand and took out the new world order one by one, it cemented the storyline as the most interesting at that time. Once this story was over, the WCW was over as far as ratings were concerned. Austin moved on to become an arch rival of D Generation X, became WWE Champion and carried the WWE mantle to a victory over WCW, but when Sting and the New World Order were at full stride, not even Austin’s overness could match the success of the WCW at the time.

The nWo vs. WCW is what made people watch WCW, not Sting vs. the nWo, WCW already had control of the ratings war before Sting got involved in the whole storyline. Austin vs. McMahon saved the WWE in a big way, this feud completely brought the ratings up and allowed WWE to compete with WCW on the ratings front. At the time, while Austin vs. McMahon may not have won the ratings battle, they did win the war. Their story has been immortalized and held in folklore by all wrestling fans for changing the industry. While Russo and WCW introduced the edgy storylines, Austin vs. McMahon revolutionised and topped them.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I have to disagree Lariat, The Corporation wasn’t a small part, it was a year long storyline including some of the most famous moments in wrestling history. Sting vs. The nWo was a great feud, but it’s nowhere near as well remembered or as famous. The nWo vs. WCW was a big storyline, but Sting vs. nWo was a small part of that, the nWo vs. WCW had already got the ratings and when it first started, was a better storyline than the Sting one. But Austin vs. McMahon and the Corporation tops them both.

Sure Austin's storyline with Mr. McMahon and the Corp. was big, but it wasn't near as meaningful as the Sting/New World Order was. During this time, WCW was ahead in the ratings and remained ahead in the ratings after the storyline was over. And Sting's gimmick change was a HUGE deal to fans of his. It was something new, and something that gave hope to the older generation who really thought that the NWO was going to buy out WCW and take it over. And at one point, the NWO was manhandling the WCW, beating the Horsemen at War Games and everything...then Sting evened the playing field. Every time Sting made a move, it got a roar from the crowd. It was the most suspenseful story in wrestling at that time. The Austin/Corporation rivalry wasn't that suspenseful, but merely filled with Austin defying authority and beating up on McMahon and others put in his way. Sting was fending off a hostile takeover, whereas Austin just wanted to raise hell. Big difference.

But surely you can’t argue that Sting vs. nWo was more revolutionary? I can accept that it was a good storyline, but all it was, was Sting changing his gimmick and hanging in the rafters, it wasn’t that revolutionary. Austin vs. McMahon saved the WWE and allowed them to compete, this storyline is also far more remembered than Sting vs. the nWo, the image of Austin stunning McMahon is one of the most famous in wrestling history. Sure, Sting’s gimmick change was a big thing, but Austin stunning and attacking McMahon was far bigger.

It WAS more revolutionary. Sting went from beach boy from Venice Beach, CA to being the Crow-like character hanging in the rafters, watching the WCW being crushed and wondering what he should do, should he watch this crumble, or help out. And all the Austin/McMahon story did was keep the WWE afloat. Sting v/s the NWO kept the WCW ahead in the ratings despite Austin's meteoric rise.

The nWo vs. WCW is what made people watch WCW, not Sting vs. the nWo, WCW already had control of the ratings war before Sting got involved in the whole storyline. Austin vs. McMahon saved the WWE in a big way, this feud completely brought the ratings up and allowed WWE to compete with WCW on the ratings front. At the time, while Austin vs. McMahon may not have won the ratings battle, they did win the war. Their story has been immortalized and held in folklore by all wrestling fans for changing the industry. While Russo and WCW introduced the edgy storylines, Austin vs. McMahon revolutionised and topped them.

The STING part of the NWO v/s WCW was what kept people watching. There was a time where the NWO was becoming stale...I mean before Nash beat Goldberg. They'd beaten everyone. Flair, Luger, the Giant...and the only one left was Sting. And Sting was raising his own hell, and eventually derailed Hogan's title dominance at Starrcade. BIG RATINGS! Austin and DX ended up taking over the war, not McMahon and Austin. All the Austin/Corp story did was introduce us to Austin. At the time, WCW was winning the war and nearly put the WWE out despite Austin. It was when Hogan's ego got in the way and Nash's booking took over that WCW became second fiddle. Sting v/s the NWO managed to keep the WWE at bay and keep people glued to Nitro.

 

[SK]

Sure Austin's storyline with Mr. McMahon and the Corp. was big, but it wasn't near as meaningful as the Sting/New World Order was. During this time, WCW was ahead in the ratings and remained ahead in the ratings after the storyline was over. And Sting's gimmick change was a HUGE deal to fans of his. It was something new, and something that gave hope to the older generation who really thought that the NWO was going to buy out WCW and take it over. And at one point, the NWO was manhandling the WCW, beating the Horsemen at War Games and everything...then Sting evened the playing field. Every time Sting made a move, it got a roar from the crowd. It was the most suspenseful story in wrestling at that time. The Austin/Corporation rivalry wasn't that suspenseful, but merely filled with Austin defying authority and beating up on McMahon and others put in his way. Sting was fending off a hostile takeover, whereas Austin just wanted to raise hell. Big difference.

That’s laughable. Austin vs. McMahon wasn’t suspenseful or meaningful? You have to be joking, this is a feud where we had Austin hold McMahon at ‘gunpoint’, we had a match where if Austin won McMahon would be fired, we had Austin coming to the ring in a beer truck, we had the shocking debut of The Big Show working with the Corporation, this feud had everything. While I agree that Sting’s gimmick change was big for the fans, it doesn’t even compare to Austin vs. McMahon. Wrestling would be completely different without Austin vs. McMahon, Austin wouldn’t have been as popular, the WWE may not be as big, WCW may still be around, Austin vs. The Corporation made Stone Cold Steve Austin an icon and a megastar, and it saved the WWE in the Monday Night Wars.

It WAS more revolutionary. Sting went from beach boy from Venice Beach, CA to being the Crow-like character hanging in the rafters, watching the WCW being crushed and wondering what he should do, should he watch this crumble, or help out. And all the Austin/McMahon story did was keep the WWE afloat. Sting v/s the NWO kept the WCW ahead in the ratings despite Austin's meteoric rise.

So your arguing that a gimmick change, something nearly every wrestler ever has done, is more revolutionary than Austin physically attacking the owner of the WWE? Austin vs. McMahon did much more than keep WWE afloat, it pushed Austin to a new level and made him a superstar, during the Monday night wars before Austin vs. The Corporation, WWE was pulling 4’s and 5’s in the ratings, when Austin vs. The Corporations took place, they pulled 6’s, 7’s and even an 8.1. Austin vs. The Corportation basically saved the WWE during the Monday night wars and lead to them winning the war. Austin vs. McMahon is what allowed the WWE to keep competing with WCW and it made Austin a huge star.

The STING part of the NWO v/s WCW was what kept people watching. There was a time where the NWO was becoming stale...I mean before Nash beat Goldberg. They'd beaten everyone. Flair, Luger, the Giant...and the only one left was Sting. And Sting was raising his own hell, and eventually derailed Hogan's title dominance at Starrcade. BIG RATINGS! Austin and DX ended up taking over the war, not McMahon and Austin. All the Austin/Corp story did was introduce us to Austin. At the time, WCW was winning the war and nearly put the WWE out despite Austin. It was when Hogan's ego got in the way and Nash's booking took over that WCW became second fiddle. Sting v/s the NWO managed to keep the WWE at bay and keep people glued to Nitro.

But we wouldn’t have had Austin D-X without Austin vs. The Corporation. Austin would have been nowhere near as big of a star if he hadn’t attacked McMahon and his Corporation, whilst Sting vs. the nWo may have kept fans interested in WCW, Austin vs. The Corporation pretty much saved the WWE in that war. I’m going to make the argument here that WCW could have got the ratings without Sting vs. The nWo, but the WWE could not have survived without Austin becoming as big of a star as he did in his feud with McMahon. The nWo alone were enough to bring huge ratings and success to WCW without Sting, but the WWE didn’t start getting big ratings and competing untill Austin started to feud with The Corporation.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

That’s laughable. Austin vs. McMahon wasn’t suspenseful or meaningful? You have to be joking, this is a feud where we had Austin hold McMahon at ‘gunpoint’, we had a match where if Austin won McMahon would be fired, we had Austin coming to the ring in a beer truck, we had the shocking debut of The Big Show working with the Corporation, this feud had everything. While I agree that Sting’s gimmick change was big for the fans, it doesn’t even compare to Austin vs. McMahon. Wrestling would be completely different without Austin vs. McMahon, Austin wouldn’t have been as popular, the WWE may not be as big, WCW may still be around, Austin vs. The Corporation made Stone Cold Steve Austin an icon and a megastar, and it saved the WWE in the Monday Night Wars.

You ARE aware that Bret Hart spit in McMahon's face already and Bret confronted Vince on TV on more than one occasion. So it's nothing new to see someone try to attack Vince. Sure it meant a lot to see Stone Cold raise hell and act a fool in the WWE, but that's all Austin did. Raise hell. Sting, on the other hand, managed to fend off a hostile takeover of his home promotion. We're talking storyline as I'm aware that the NWO was really WCW, but in storylines, Sting helping the WCW gain momentum back meant a WHOLE lot more to fans than seeing Stone Cold spray beer on Vince, Shane, and The Rock. And AUSTIN made himself into a megastar. There were more stories after the Corporation angle that catapulted Austin to where he needed to be. I say he hit his mark when he beat HBK at WM, NOT during his feud with the Corporation. All Sting managed to do is reinvent an iconic character for good. Many say that Sting was a generic Hulk Hogan, with the tan, saying prayers and being kid friendly, and being so over, it wasn't funny. And what did Sting do? Go the OPPOSITE of Hogan. Hulk turned bad, Sting turned dark. It was sheer brilliance and a great storyline that kept me tuned into Nitro.

So your arguing that a gimmick change, something nearly every wrestler ever has done, is more revolutionary than Austin physically attacking the owner of the WWE? Austin vs. McMahon did much more than keep WWE afloat, it pushed Austin to a new level and made him a superstar, during the Monday night wars before Austin vs. The Corporation, WWE was pulling 4’s and 5’s in the ratings, when Austin vs. The Corporations took place, they pulled 6’s, 7’s and even an 8.1. Austin vs. The Corportation basically saved the WWE during the Monday night wars and lead to them winning the war. Austin vs. McMahon is what allowed the WWE to keep competing with WCW and it made Austin a huge star.

Yes I am. Sting was someone who was seen as good, wholesome, and stood for what's right. No one imagined this guy being jaded, hanging in the rafters dressed like the Crow. And sure Raw was pulling good numbers, but WCW was pulling BETTER numbers. 84 weeks in a row, and this story was smack dab in the middle of it all. All the Austin story did was keep the WWF afloat. The WWF would have managed to find something or someone to push against Sting. This story nearly put the WWF out of business. If it wasn't for Sting and the NWO, the WWF would have folded the WCW even sooner. The only thing that helped the WWE was that Sting's story had to end sometime. Austin had plenty to feud with. Sting only had the NWO at that time.

But we wouldn’t have had Austin D-X without Austin vs. The Corporation. Austin would have been nowhere near as big of a star if he hadn’t attacked McMahon and his Corporation, whilst Sting vs. the nWo may have kept fans interested in WCW, Austin vs. The Corporation pretty much saved the WWE in that war. I’m going to make the argument here that WCW could have got the ratings without Sting vs. The nWo, but the WWE could not have survived without Austin becoming as big of a star as he did in his feud with McMahon. The nWo alone were enough to bring huge ratings and success to WCW without Sting, but the WWE didn’t start getting big ratings and competing untill Austin started to feud with The Corporation.

The WWE COULD have survived. We're talking about The Rock, who was as over as ANYONE in wrestling at this time. Triple H was coming into his own. Mankind was also breaking through. The Undertaker and Kane were at their peaks. The WWE would have been in bad shape, but not dead without Austin. Without Sting's storyline, The NWO would have became stale, fast. Goldberg's streak wouldn't have saved the WCW at that time. Hell, it might not have made it to Goldberg if it wasn't for Sting in the rafters giving faith to the loyal WCW fans that there is STILL someone who can fight for what's good about wrestling.

 

[SK]

You ARE aware that Bret Hart spit in McMahon's face already and Bret confronted Vince on TV on more than one occasion. So it's nothing new to see someone try to attack Vince. Sure it meant a lot to see Stone Cold raise hell and act a fool in the WWE, but that's all Austin did. Raise hell. Sting, on the other hand, managed to fend off a hostile takeover of his home promotion. We're talking storyline as I'm aware that the NWO was really WCW, but in storylines, Sting helping the WCW gain momentum back meant a WHOLE lot more to fans than seeing Stone Cold spray beer on Vince, Shane, and The Rock. And AUSTIN made himself into a megastar. There were more stories after the Corporation angle that catapulted Austin to where he needed to be. I say he hit his mark when he beat HBK at WM, NOT during his feud with the Corporation. All Sting managed to do is reinvent an iconic character for good. Many say that Sting was a generic Hulk Hogan, with the tan, saying prayers and being kid friendly, and being so over, it wasn't funny. And what did Sting do? Go the OPPOSITE of Hogan. Hulk turned bad, Sting turned dark. It was sheer brilliance and a great storyline that kept me tuned into Nitro.

Of course I’m aware that Bret Hart spat in McMahon’s face, but did he repeatedly physically attack him? Did Bret ever hold McMahon at gunpoint? Did Bret ever force McMahon to lose his job? No is the answer. Austin vs. The Corporation was hugely revolutionary, of course we’d seen people confront authority figures, but never actually attack them, let alone hold them at gunpoint. Austin didn’t just raise hell, he raised ratings, he changed the WWE and made it shocking, edgy and pushed the envelope for what was acceptable. I disagree with you, I think that Austin attacking McMahon meant much more to the fans, everyone hates their boss, they could identify with wanting to hurt him and enjoyed seeing it. This is what made Austin a superstar and made the fans love him, he may have got big without this feud, but he would have been nowhere near as popular without it. And just maybe he didn’t hit his peak during Austin vs. The Corporation, but he wouldn’t have got any higher without it, he wouldn’t have been as popular and his feud with DX wouldn’t have been as big. This is why Austin vs. The Corporation was more successful, not only did it increase ratings to be able to compete with WCW, but it made Austin the megastar he became and pushed him onto better things.

Yes I am. Sting was someone who was seen as good, wholesome, and stood for what's right. No one imagined this guy being jaded, hanging in the rafters dressed like the Crow. And sure Raw was pulling good numbers, but WCW was pulling BETTER numbers. 84 weeks in a row, and this story was smack dab in the middle of it all. All the Austin story did was keep the WWF afloat. The WWF would have managed to find something or someone to push against Sting. This story nearly put the WWF out of business. If it wasn't for Sting and the NWO, the WWF would have folded the WCW even sooner. The only thing that helped the WWE was that Sting's story had to end sometime. Austin had plenty to feud with. Sting only had the NWO at that time.

So Sting, turning from a good wholesome character to a dark bad character was revolutionary, hmmm sounds an awful lot like a gimmick change to me, a bit like a similar good wholesome Hulk Hogan turning bad, just previously. Sorry, but I really do fail to see how a Sting gimmick change is revolutionary, I’m not saying it wasn’t big or shocking, but it really wasn’t revolutionary, nowhere near to the heights of Austin vs. The Corporation. Austin vs. The Corporation did much more than just keep the WWE afloat, it pulled up the WWE ratings to challenge WCW, it elevated Austin to be a huge star and set him up for the DX feud, it also gave us some of the most memorable moments in wrestling history, much more than Sting vs. The nWo gave us.

The WWE COULD have survived. We're talking about The Rock, who was as over as ANYONE in wrestling at this time. Triple H was coming into his own. Mankind was also breaking through. The Undertaker and Kane were at their peaks. The WWE would have been in bad shape, but not dead without Austin. Without Sting's storyline, The NWO would have became stale, fast. Goldberg's streak wouldn't have saved the WCW at that time. Hell, it might not have made it to Goldberg if it wasn't for Sting in the rafters giving faith to the loyal WCW fans that there is STILL someone who can fight for what's good about wrestling.

Yes it could have survived, but it would have been much much worse off in the ratings war and that’s pretty obvious seeing as the ratings during the Austin vs. The Corporation shot up from the high 4’s and low 5’s to the high 6’s low 7’s and even one 8.1. Austin vs. McMahon may not have won the ratings war but it was more successful because it increased the WWE’s ratings so much compared to previous main event feuds. Also I disagree that the nWo would have become stale without Sting at that time, they still had Goldberg to feud with which could have lasted a while. Sure, it would have got old eventually but Sting vs. the nWo didn’t bring in the huge ratings at the start, that was purely the nWo, this is why I think Austin vs. The Corporation was more successful, because as the ratings show, that main event feud hugely increased the WWE’s ratings.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Of course I’m aware that Bret Hart spat in McMahon’s face, but did he repeatedly physically attack him? Did Bret ever hold McMahon at gunpoint? Did Bret ever force McMahon to lose his job? No is the answer. Austin vs. The Corporation was hugely revolutionary, of course we’d seen people confront authority figures, but never actually attack them, let alone hold them at gunpoint. Austin didn’t just raise hell, he raised ratings, he changed the WWE and made it shocking, edgy and pushed the envelope for what was acceptable. I disagree with you, I think that Austin attacking McMahon meant much more to the fans, everyone hates their boss, they could identify with wanting to hurt him and enjoyed seeing it. This is what made Austin a superstar and made the fans love him, he may have got big without this feud, but he would have been nowhere near as popular without it. And just maybe he didn’t hit his peak during Austin vs. The Corporation, but he wouldn’t have got any higher without it, he wouldn’t have been as popular and his feud with DX wouldn’t have been as big. This is why Austin vs. The Corporation was more successful, not only did it increase ratings to be able to compete with WCW, but it made Austin the megastar he became and pushed him onto better things.

Austin and the Corporation didn't really feud all that much. It was more a Vince vs Austin kind of thing. The Corporation was primarily focused on the Ministry of Darkness and other entities during this time. All Austin did was raise hell. Sure he stunned Vince numerous times, and put a fake gun to his head, which is all well and good...but does it compare to the success of Sting v/s NWO? Nope. Sting managed to make the NWO more relevant than it ever should have been. Many caught on to what was going on, but after Sting debuted, people tuned out the NWO and wondered what Sting was going to do next. It was the most captivating storyline in quite sometime in pro wrestling. Austin wasn't preventing an entity from taking over his company. Sting was. Which is why based on the numbers and the sheer brilliance of the storyline, Sting's story with the NWO was far more successful.

So Sting, turning from a good wholesome character to a dark bad character was revolutionary, hmmm sounds an awful lot like a gimmick change to me, a bit like a similar good wholesome Hulk Hogan turning bad, just previously. Sorry, but I really do fail to see how a Sting gimmick change is revolutionary, I’m not saying it wasn’t big or shocking, but it really wasn’t revolutionary, nowhere near to the heights of Austin vs. The Corporation. Austin vs. The Corporation did much more than just keep the WWE afloat, it pulled up the WWE ratings to challenge WCW, it elevated Austin to be a huge star and set him up for the DX feud, it also gave us some of the most memorable moments in wrestling history, much more than Sting vs. The nWo gave us.

Let's use pictures to illustrate this change.

This is the old Sting. Colorful, full of life, and someone who was excitement and over with the crowd as a clear good guy and good babyface. He wasn't even believable as a Horsemen.

Now...

This is FAR from what Sting used to be. No life, no color, except black and white...and most of all, he's jaded. Not knowing whether to be the culprit who puts WCW out of it's misery, or does he help out the company that made him into the icon that he was? This was far more than a gimmick change.

Yes it could have survived, but it would have been much much worse off in the ratings war and that’s pretty obvious seeing as the ratings during the Austin vs. The Corporation shot up from the high 4’s and low 5’s to the high 6’s low 7’s and even one 8.1. Austin vs. McMahon may not have won the ratings war but it was more successful because it increased the WWE’s ratings so much compared to previous main event feuds. Also I disagree that the nWo would have become stale without Sting at that time, they still had Goldberg to feud with which could have lasted a while. Sure, it would have got old eventually but Sting vs. the nWo didn’t bring in the huge ratings at the start, that was purely the nWo, this is why I think Austin vs. The Corporation was more successful, because as the ratings show, that main event feud hugely increased the WWE’s ratings.

Exactly. Without this Sting/NWO storyline, the WCW might have folded earlier than it did. Goldberg wasn't around at all if very much during this point and the NWO was beating up everyone. It was stale, over exhausted, and almost everyone in the WCW was in the NWO. Put it this way, if Sting would have sided with the NWO, the WCW would have been done within a year. Since Sting put some kayfabe faith into the fans by helping WCW hold the NWO at bay, it made Nitro worth watching and also forced WCW to make a Thunder broadcast on Thursday nights just to continue the storyline. It was THAT successful.

 

[SK]

Austin and the Corporation didn't really feud all that much. It was more a Vince vs Austin kind of thing. The Corporation was primarily focused on the Ministry of Darkness and other entities during this time. All Austin did was raise hell. Sure he stunned Vince numerous times, and put a fake gun to his head, which is all well and good...but does it compare to the success of Sting v/s NWO? Nope. Sting managed to make the NWO more relevant than it ever should have been. Many caught on to what was going on, but after Sting debuted, people tuned out the NWO and wondered what Sting was going to do next. It was the most captivating storyline in quite sometime in pro wrestling. Austin wasn't preventing an entity from taking over his company. Sting was. Which is why based on the numbers and the sheer brilliance of the storyline, Sting's story with the NWO was far more successful.

That’s untrue, the Corporate Ministry didn’t come about until Austin was out of the picture. Austin was doing much more than just raising hell. It was about McMahon doing everything in his power to stop Austin beating his corporate champion, and Austin overcoming the boss and sticking it to his boss. This storyline was not only more successful, but more captivating aswell, people wanted to see Austin win and McMahon get hurt. Fans got behind Austin and wanted him to overcome the odds and they kept tuning in to see it happen. Sting vs. The nWo was obviously a big deal, but Austin vs. The Corporation is the more well remembered feuds, this is just one of the reasons as to why Austin vs. The Corporation was more successful.

Let's use pictures to illustrate this change.

This is the old Sting. Colorful, full of life, and someone who was excitement and over with the crowd as a clear good guy and good babyface. He wasn't even believable as a Horsemen.

Now...

This is FAR from what Sting used to be. No life, no color, except black and white...and most of all, he's jaded. Not knowing whether to be the culprit who puts WCW out of it's misery, or does he help out the company that made him into the icon that he was? This was far more than a gimmick change.

It’s still just a gimmick change. You can glam it up all you want with 100 different pictures and adjectives, but it’s just a gimmick change. Yes, it was a big change and shock, I’m not denying that, but he’s just changed character like most pro wrestlers do. In that sense I don’t think that Sting vs. the nWo feud was as revolutionary as Austin vs. The Corporation. Austin vs. The Corporation gave us lots of unforgettable moments and changed the way storylines were made. It allowed for authority figures to be physically attacked, allowed for the envelope to be pushed and more controversial storylines to be used. This is why it was more successful, because not only for the ratings, unforgettable moments and Austin’s rise, but for what it meant for wrestling in general.

Exactly. Without this Sting/NWO storyline, the WCW might have folded earlier than it did. Goldberg wasn't around at all if very much during this point and the NWO was beating up everyone. It was stale, over exhausted, and almost everyone in the WCW was in the NWO. Put it this way, if Sting would have sided with the NWO, the WCW would have been done within a year. Since Sting put some kayfabe faith into the fans by helping WCW hold the NWO at bay, it made Nitro worth watching and also forced WCW to make a Thunder broadcast on Thursday nights just to continue the storyline. It was THAT successful.

Goldberg was pretty big right from the start. People knew he was going to do well and after he started to accumulate the wins, people wanted to see Goldberg vs. The now. I think it’s a bit brash to say that WCW would have folded had Sting joined the nWo, as they were still relevant even after the feud with Sting.

Why Austin vs. The Corporation was more successful.
This feud gave us some of the most memorable moments in wrestling history; Austin stunning McMahon, Austin holding McMahon at gunpoint, The Big Show throwing Austin through the cage; Austin coming to the ring in a beer truck etc. But it was much more than this. This feud pulled the WWE’s ratings up from the 4s and 5s to 6s and 7s. Before this feud the WWE was struggling to compete with WCWs ratings and after this feud, they were on a par. This feud saved the WWE in the ratings war. But, even more still, this feud was controversial and revolutionary, it pushed the boundaries of what was acceptable and set the mould for future storylines. It gave us guns, beer trucks, blood, ambulances, bosses being attacked, ambushes and a lot more. It was more revolutionary, gave us more memorable moments and encapsulated the fans more than the Sting vs. The nWo feud, that is why Austin vs. The Corporation was the more successful storyline.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

That’s untrue, the Corporate Ministry didn’t come about until Austin was out of the picture. Austin was doing much more than just raising hell. It was about McMahon doing everything in his power to stop Austin beating his corporate champion, and Austin overcoming the boss and sticking it to his boss. This storyline was not only more successful, but more captivating aswell, people wanted to see Austin win and McMahon get hurt. Fans got behind Austin and wanted him to overcome the odds and they kept tuning in to see it happen. Sting vs. The nWo was obviously a big deal, but Austin vs. The Corporation is the more well remembered feuds, this is just one of the reasons as to why Austin vs. The Corporation was more successful.

So you're saying that people were more interested in seeing Austin raise hell than seeing Sting fend off a nucleus of degenerates (no pun intended) trying to take over what he helped build in WCW? That's just simply not true. Sting captivated audiences in the arenas on a weekly basis. Sting didn't even have to BE IN THE BUILDING for there to be some anticipation of what could happen next. That says it all. When you sit in your hotel room or on your sofa and watch Nitro and STILL draw immense crowd response just by the fact that you MIGHT be in the rafters or you MIGHT come down and beat up the NWO, that says it all about what story was more successful.

It’s still just a gimmick change. You can glam it up all you want with 100 different pictures and adjectives, but it’s just a gimmick change. Yes, it was a big change and shock, I’m not denying that, but he’s just changed character like most pro wrestlers do. In that sense I don’t think that Sting vs. the nWo feud was as revolutionary as Austin vs. The Corporation. Austin vs. The Corporation gave us lots of unforgettable moments and changed the way storylines were made. It allowed for authority figures to be physically attacked, allowed for the envelope to be pushed and more controversial storylines to be used. This is why it was more successful, because not only for the ratings, unforgettable moments and Austin’s rise, but for what it meant for wrestling in general.

You contradicted yourself. You said it was a big change and shock. Why? Because Sting became a whole different entity. The old Beach Bum from California was gone, the dark, demented, and jaded character that we knew as Sting was born. This was more than a gimmick change. Especially for someone who marks hard for the Stinger to THIS day and had a rat tail haircut just like his when I was a kid. It was a little more than a gimmick change to me.

Goldberg was pretty big right from the start. People knew he was going to do well and after he started to accumulate the wins, people wanted to see Goldberg vs. The now. I think it’s a bit brash to say that WCW would have folded had Sting joined the nWo, as they were still relevant even after the feud with Sting.

Goldberg never came across the NWO until the story with Sting was over with. And NO, the WCW wasn't relevant. If they were, there would be no NWO PPV. If Sting decided to join with the NWO, it would have been storyline suicide and pretty much done in the WCW, because the NWO was dominating everyone and making it a LOT harder for the WCW to be seen as a relevant competition for them. Sting evened the playing field.

Why Austin vs. The Corporation was more successful.
This feud gave us some of the most memorable moments in wrestling history; Austin stunning McMahon, Austin holding McMahon at gunpoint, The Big Show throwing Austin through the cage; Austin coming to the ring in a beer truck etc. But it was much more than this. This feud pulled the WWE’s ratings up from the 4s and 5s to 6s and 7s. Before this feud the WWE was struggling to compete with WCWs ratings and after this feud, they were on a par. This feud saved the WWE in the ratings war. But, even more still, this feud was controversial and revolutionary, it pushed the boundaries of what was acceptable and set the mould for future storylines. It gave us guns, beer trucks, blood, ambulances, bosses being attacked, ambushes and a lot more. It was more revolutionary, gave us more memorable moments and encapsulated the fans more than the Sting vs. The nWo feud, that is why Austin vs. The Corporation was the more successful storyline.

It gave us comedy, gave us attitude, and gave us some great memories, but to say it was more successful that the Sting vs NWO? No. It simply wasn't. As what was said before, Sting fending off the NWO, sheltering Luger, Flair, and others from harm's way, and eventually winning the World Title back from Hogan was one of the more emotional moments in wrestling history at that point. Even with a botched finish, it still got tremendous responses from the crowd. Can you name a match Austin had during this feud that was relevant? I can name only one match with Sting, but that match told the tale of the entire story and showed that with enough heart, one person can inspire an underdog to overcome the odds and prevail, which is what the WCW ended up doing.

 

[Mr. TM]

Clarity Of Debate: SK gets this. Beautifully laid out posts.

Punctuality: SK requested an extra 24 hours, and he got it. But Lariat was late for one of his posts, so I have to give it to SK.

Informative: SK did the best at providing information from the get-go.

Emotionality: Lariat brought the best emotion into this match.

Persuasion: It was a good match up to read about. I always thought that Sting vs the NWO was the better matchup, and I still do. Have to give Lariat this matchup point.

TM rates this SK 3 points to Lariat 2.

 

[Blade]

Clarity: Lariat gets this one. He put all his points across really well.

Punctuality: SK

Informative: From the start, SK had the info to back up what he said.

Emotionality: Lariat definately put emotion into it, especially in the later posts.

Persuasion. It was an excellent debate from both sides. But I just think SK's points were much stronger and his counter-arguements were stronger.

SK 3 Lariat 2

 

[CH David]

Clarity: SK's opener helped him get this point. Very organized, and bolded the points he wanted to try and prove.

Point: SkeptiKal

Punctuality: I guess Lariat was late.

Point: SkeptiKal

Informative: What Blade said. His information backed up the points he was making.

Point: SkeptiKal

Emotionality: SK brought the info, Lariat brought the emotion.

Point: Lariat

Persuasion: Before this, I had felt that Austin vs. the Corporation was going to run away with this. But Lariat used personal experience, the fact that Sting changed his gimmick, which was huge, and that Sting was going up against a huge faction, whereas Austin was basically kicking Vince's ass and beating his lackeys.

Point: Lariat

CH David scores this SkeptiKal 3, Lariat 2.

 

[Miko]

Clarity: Goin with the flow, SK for the point here

Point: SkeptiKal

Punctuality: Lariat was late, but SK had to have an extra 24 hours. I'll split the point, late is late and I am a cunt

Point: Split

Informative: Bit off on a few bits there SK, Lariat

Point: Lariat

Emotionality: Lariat again

Point: Lariat

Persuasion: Neither of you convinced me, good job on that, just kidding a fine argument. . .

Point: Split

I'll score this round

Lariat - 3
SK - 2

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Debate - Both debaters gave clear opening arguments.

Point: Split

Punctuality - Read what TM wrote.

Point: SK

Informative - Both debaters prepared very well.

Point: Split

Emotionality - Lariat, I wasn't buying what you were selling, but I'll be damned if you didn't believe in what you were saying.

Point: Lariat

Persuasion - SK, you did everything necessary to back your argument, and more. You didn't loaf on the much easier task, and that is very commendable.

Point: SK

tdigle's Score

Lariat - 2
SK -3