Vince McMahon & "The Audience of One" Philosophy

[Ambiguous Turd]

I was reading Mark Madden's latest column, which is usually a great read because I feel like he tells it like it is, and pulls no punches. A majority of his opinions directly reflect my very same opinions, as well.

Let's focus on the first part of the column ... which I pasted below, and then we'll address a few points in it.

THE NUMBERS DON’T LIE

Monday’s RAW did an overall rating of 3.3, 2.6 in the 18-49 male demographic. According to PWTorch.com, RAW’s audience declined 18.5 percent compared to the show’s previous five weeks.

That’s a cataclysmic drop even when you take going head-to-head with the NBA playoffs into account. What will WWE do?

Nothing. There won’t be an overhaul or a significant change in direction, that’s for sure.

If that’s because WWE believes their best-laid plans are creatively sound and will ultimately come good, fine. But it’s not.

Changes won’t be forthcoming because WWE books for an audience of one, Vince McMahon, and he has always explained away any rejection of his creative vision by saying the fans are wrong, not me. This is old news, to be sure, but worth reviewing when a rough rating rolls around. It’s not as if another wrestling company provides legitimate competition, and a 3.3 is still a monster number on cable.

So things will mostly remain the same. Vince may identify a scapegoat by minimizing someone’s push or even firing someone. But it won’t be the right someone.

For example, no one wants to see Shane McMahon play Superman. No one sees him as a legitimate competitor, badass, athlete or legitimate anything else. To make things worse, accepting 3-on-1 matches doesn’t make him seem tough, it makes him look stupid.

I’m sure Vince sees Shane’s main-event status as a way of extending the McMahon legacy.

But the best way Vince could extend the McMahon legacy would be by running an entertaining, profitable wrestling company. But WWE has become a crappy, jaded, declining, overextended wrestling company given an occasional artificial boost (like further monopolizing sports entertainment on TV by extending its tentacles into WGN, and wait until the unholy alliance with ESPN).

Writing this column becomes harder and harder. Almost everything in wrestling sucks. What’s there to discuss?

I have heard the "Audience of One" philosophy emphasized over and over and over again over the years, and have certainly come to believe that this is exactly what is transpiring with today's product.

In essence, Vince puts himself in the mindset of being a wrestling fan and putting on TV what he feels like "he wants to see", and then instructs Stephanie and the writing team to give him exactly what he wants.

Now, he is the Chairman, however is this Point of View not considered to be selfish? Imagine going back to everyone's days in High School, and you are working in a group. Now, you are supposed to be a team and coming up with ideas together, but one member of the group insists that "we are going to do things his way, and that's the end of the story."

How can someone be so closed-minded and so arrogant to assume that "he is always right"? Because that is the philosophy Vince evidently has. That "he is always right, and that the fans are wrong" ... which Madden points out.

Changes won’t be forthcoming because WWE books for an audience of one, Vince McMahon, and he has always explained away any rejection of his creative vision by saying the fans are wrong, not me.

What happens when the judgment of this person begins to falter? And a large number of customers are unhappy with his particular vision? How can one simply tell himself that millions of fans are "wrong" and that "he is right" in this case?

Secondly, when low ratings or poor buyrates are produced, what are your thoughts on Vince McMahon giving static to the writing team and putting the blame on them, as opposed to himself?

Case and point with ECW's December to Dismember. Vince McMahon started his new WWECW as a toned down version of Paul Heyman's ECW. Gradually, he began to alter the image of ECW, by slowly transforming the show into a developmental show ... all the while telling Heyman exactly what he wanted.

Before the show, Heyman is not happy with the show that was written, whatsoever. He tells Vince several times that "the fans are going to throw this right back in our face". Vince, happy with the show's script, says "full steam ahead"

Show time occurs, and the show was extremely poorly received. And instead of Vince sucking up responsibility for the show, he places all of the blame on Paul Heyman, and sends him home, while relieving him of his responsibilities as a writer of ECW.

What are your thoughts on Vince McMahon and his concept of "accepting responsibility", with what he did to Heyman?


Raw has gone from a 4.1 rating, down to a 3.3 last week. This week, it is safe to assume it may be even lower.

I see a lot of Vince defenders on here say that "the problem is with us, the fans. We expect too much." However, is that really the case, or is Vince simply giving us a sub-par product, that fits his vision, and he simply does not care what anyone else thinks?

To those Vince defenders, I want to raise the suggestion that the reason so many people are upset is because perhaps Vince is only booking to please himself, and is not listening to his customers, whatsoever, in what they are telling him they want to see.


I still maintain the biggest problem with wrestling is Vince's elimination of the competition, and his refusal to replace the industry with product alternatives that his competitors offered. That killed the interest in wrestling, in my view. It isn't the fans, but rather poor judgment on the part of Vince. However, is he going to admit this? Absolutely not.



This is what the "Audience of One" Philosophy has done to the product


He has no interesting characters left on the roster (he killed Orton's character)
He has removed any and all interesting and complex storylines
He has removed all edginess from the product, and offers no product alternatives.
He has failed to replace The Rock and Steve Austin's departures, with a star of their magnitude
He has removed the managers from the show
He has removed almost all emphasis on the Mid Card
He has destroyed the Tag Team Division
He has removed Face/Heel Commentary Teams and replaced them with Bland, Boring commentary teams.



Anyway, what are your thoughts on all of that, and Vince's "Audience of One" philosophy?

 

[Blade]

Vince has proven that he is not making the show just to his liking.

Vince never really liked the Hardys, in terms of pushing them higher up the card anyway. But he pushed Jeff to be WWE champion.

Now, it is easy to argue against Vince and how he supposedly makes the writer do what he wants to see. But if you let me play Devil's advocate for a moment, what else is he supposed to do? No matter what he writes, someone somewhere will have a complaint. He can't write for the audience of.... millions. So he trusts himself. He doesn't do what he wants to see, it's more like him doing what he thinks it will work.
Does it always work? No, of course not. But as I said, no matter what matches he made or what angles he thought would work or who he pushed, there'd always be a group of people complaining.

But he must be doing something right, the poll on this website showed that most people do actually enjoy what the WWE is showing right now.

It's also easy to blame the decline in ratings on how Vince is insane and makes crap wrestling shows now, but at the same time, WWE shows are still one of the top shows on their respective channels. People are just watching TV less these days. There was a study done by an Irish university that said since the recession people are watching less TV, for whatever reason. But I digress.

Give Vince a little more credit, because even if he does pull some crap sometimes, he still knows what he's doing and the WWE is still a very successful company, especially considering the current economic situation.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Vince has proven that he is not making the show just to his liking.

I don't think he has proven that to me.

Vince never really liked the Hardys, in terms of pushing them higher up the card anyway. But he pushed Jeff to be WWE champion.

That's because Vince was forced to. He was getting in a position where he knew he was forced to have to create new stars with the pending retirements coming his way.

If Vince had things his way, he would keep the belts on Edge, Triple H, and John Cena ... for more than likely, over a year. It is obvious that these three are his favorite champions, and it's pretty clear that viewer interest has declined over the years from seeing the "same old shit" (to borrow a phrase from the original ECW fans).

Now, it is easy to argue against Vince and how he supposedly makes the writer do what he wants to see. But if you let me play Devil's advocate for a moment, what else is he supposed to do? No matter what he writes, someone somewhere will have a complaint.

Where as it is true that you are never going to make "everyone" happy, let me throw back another question and ask "What is the measuring stick then, to determine when enough people are unhappy with the product, that there is a problem?" How many millions of fans do you need to lose, for one to accept that something, somewhere with the product is wrong?

Vince needs to learn not to be so bull-headed, and accept the fact that other intelligent people are better in-tune with today's pop culture and the wants of today's fans, more so than him. If I were Vince, I would be a lot more open to writer suggestions, suggestions from the talent (which he appears to finally be doing, now), and as I have mentioned several times ... offer the viewers choices and product alternatives in their wrestling programming.

Unlike Vince, I do accept that not all fans are going to embrace his vision, and that wrestling fans come in different shapes and sizes in their preferences, which was a lesson learned during the Monday Night Wars and the wrestling boom. And that is justified by each company doing the ratings and buyrates that they were doing, at the time.

He can't write for the audience of.... millions. So he trusts himself. He doesn't do what he wants to see, it's more like him doing what he thinks it will work. Does it always work? No, of course not. But as I said, no matter what matches he made or what angles he thought would work or who he pushed, there'd always be a group of people complaining.

Again, though, what is the measuring stick, and how many fans are you willing to lose, before we say, that there is a problem here? I don't care about small groups of people. But when thousands and millions of people begin tuning out, clearly there is a problem somewhere.

One of my biggest issues I have with Vince loyalists, is their "need" to justify anything Vince does with a "rubber stamp approval". The mentality is "Vince McMahon is God. Nothing he does is ever wrong. Just look at what he has accomplished."

Well, that is all fine and dandy, but as people age, sometimes their judgment gets impaired and they lose touch with their customers/audience. And that is exactly what I think has happened to Vince. The man is stubborn, and refuses to admit when he's wrong.

I judge people on their performance that they give in the Present tense. Not the past. And where as Vince performed well as a leader for decades, it seems to me that his time has come, creatively.

Here, Vince was emphasizing everyone planning Mania for weeks, and weeks, and weeks. He went so far as to berate Michael Hayes for wanting to concentrate on Smackdown and give a good show for the 500th episode, instead of "concentrating on Mania". What was the end result? A lackluster Wrestlemania, that was rated overwhelmingly negative by most reviews. What happened?

But he must be doing something right, the poll on this website showed that most people do actually enjoy what the WWE is showing right now.

So, a poll of 20 some fans on a website is sufficient to determine whether or not people are happy with Vince's performance? Not sure market research is up your alley (no offense) if you think that sample is an appropriate sample and direct reflection on the satisfaction of the product from the total potential audience.

It is safe to assume that most of the fans on wrestling forums, are fans who do enjoy today's product. Most fans who don't would simply do the common sense thing and move on. Therefore, results are somewhat skewed. Which is why when I come down on Vince and Creative, and people blast me for it, I don't get discouraged.

It's also easy to blame the decline in ratings on how Vince is insane and makes crap wrestling shows now, but at the same time, WWE shows are still one of the top shows on their respective channels. People are just watching TV less these days. There was a study done by an Irish university that said since the recession people are watching less TV, for whatever reason. But I digress.

WWE is still one of the top shows, but does nowhere near the numbers it used to do. How long is the downward spiral going to be acceptable to the company? Why are people tuning out to begin with?

Give Vince a little more credit, because even if he does pull some crap sometimes, he still knows what he's doing and the WWE is still a very successful company, especially considering the current economic situation.

The downturn and ratings decline occurred before the recession, though. And where as his company is doing fine as far as its profitability (which is all that really matters to Vince), that still doesn't mean that his revenues would be far greater if he would simply listen to what his audience is telling him.

I see so many people gripe about today's wrestling, and how much better the Attitude Era was, and what not. And I agree with them 100%. However, I think there are a large number of people who watch out of loyalty, and that's about it ... since it was a large part of everyone's childhoods. That certainly was the case with me, and the only reason I tune in to Raw each week.

However, I don't watch Smackdown (however, I may start watching Smackdown over Raw instead). I don't watch ECW. And I don't watch Superstars. I currently watch only the second hour of Raw, as I watch 24 at 9:00 PM instead. I find that show more interesting than Raw.

So I basically read the newsboards daily and only watch Raw from 10 PM to 11 PM each week. And I watch the PPV's for free (I will not pay for them, as I don't think they are worth it). I'm basically hanging by a thread of being a fan of today's wrestling, however I love to reminisce about the good old days on the forums.

 

[JETER123]

This thread is ridiculous...

Do you honestly believe that Vince McMahon is that spiteful?? Do you realize that Mr. McMahon the character isn't the same as Mr. McMahon the person? Vince isn't sitting there attempting to ignore what the fans want. The fans make him money...He's not gonna push us like that for the hell of it...Do I feel that Vince doesn't know what the fans want? Yes. But I don't think Vince is cracking a rib from laughing during the Khali Kiss Cam...

 

[finneycom1]

Boy, I am torn here fellas! One one hand, I agree with Sidious that I have yet to stop watching wrestling b/c of the loyalty aspect. Monday nights between 8-10 p.m. is the only time I make it a point to sit down and actually watch that 60 inch downstairs!! I feel that I will always be a wrestling fan no matter how crazy and absurd the storylines are.

I do agree that right now, it is not near as good as I have seen it from the last 20+ years that I have been a wrestling fan. I watch it now b/c from time to time they will let Regal have a match on Raw(always been a fan of his.) Or watch Michaels have a quality match. Or Triple H will show signs of his old "Attitude Era" self. But, the characters are not as compelling as they once was and the wrestling is not as good as it once was.(IMO)

On the other hand, I dont think anyone on here KNOWS how or what Vince is thinking or how is running the company. Not Blade, not Sidious, not even Mark Madden. But, I agree with Blade that how can one man put something on t.v. and expect everyone to like it. No one man can do this. I think Vince looks at the situation and agrees to go with something that he feels will go over well, but as of late, has ultimately failed. Or has he? The fact that most people on forums like this, have not liked the current direction of WWE, but forum posters only make up a small portion of the viewing audience. I honestly feel that most of the WWE haters on here have a huge problem with the "PG" rated direction that the company is going in. Thus, that disliking pours onto people's opinions of the company, Vince, and the current roster.

Trust me, if you don't like what is going on with wrestling now, give it some time. I honestly feel that it will rebound and probably head toward PG-13, in the future. If Vince feels the squeeze of declining sales, attendence, and t.v. ratings, don't put it past him to pull out all the stops. Bischoff, WCW, and the federal government couldnt put him out of business. I don't think the current state of wrestling will either!!

I don't like to see posts, though, that claim to think they know WHAT Vince is doing right now. Just b/c you dont like what he puts on t.v., doesnt mean that he is displaying a product only for him. Honestly, if the product was only meant to appease his liking, I don't think they would have ever moved toward a PG product. I think he is too sinister for that. LOL!!

 

[gd]

I completely disagree with Madden on this one. First of all, he is being a total hypocrite. On his radio show, he only talks want he wants to talk about and completely rips apart callers for doing otherwise. I have no problem with it because it is HIS show much like it is Vince's company.

Now, I may not agree with McMahon's decisions all of the time, but I am not questioning his authority. It is obvious that whatever he has done has worked. He's been making decisions for years now and look what the WWE has become, the biggest company in the world.

Obviously, he is not going to please everyone all of the time, but I have no doubt that he always has the company's best interest at heart. It may be "an audience of one", but I don't think there is any other way of doing it.

 

[nickbwfc]

So you watch 5/6 of WWE shows and read shit mark madden says?

How do you know that vince isn't in touch with what's popular? If vince isn't in touch with whats popular how come Cena is appearing on mainstream TV and is in top ten searches? If Vince isn't in touch with with his fans how come they keep turning up to Boo/cheer the people he is putting in the main event?

 

[Big Daddy Fool]

So you watch 5/6 of WWE shows and read shit mark madden says?

How do you know that vince isn't in touch with what's popular? If vince isn't in touch with whats popular how come Cena is appearing on mainstream TV and is in top ten searches? If Vince isn't in touch with with his fans how come they keep turning up to Boo/cheer the people he is putting in the main event?

I know when i was a kid and wasn't keen on how to use the internet and wanted to find out about wrestlers I'd go to Google or Yahoo. Plus, internet seach ratings mean shit to the WWE, the TV ratings is what counts. With people turning up half of the crowd is kids who most will grow out of it and the other half are the people who havent grown out of it which goes back to the loyalty factor sidious was talking about.


If you ask me I feel Vince might be a little passed his prime. Even if that is true it's not a bad thing the man had an excellent run that is incomparable. Wrestling in general has always been behind the curve of what is popular. The dudleys doing the wuzzzzup when i guarantee a good portion of the audience has never seen that commercial its so old. MVP doing the ballin' thing when it was played out years ago. But back to Vince, I don't really think he has a grasp any longer on what the audience wants. I think he's out of touch with what is going on and might need to give more control to someone younger.

I think another thing that could be a reason for the decline was taking control out of the bookers and wrestlers about how promos and matches should go and handing it over to comedy writers. HE should've left it in the hands of the bookers/agents and wrestlers because they know more about wrestling then any writer on staff. They have great minds in Steamboat, Arn and Windham and they are leaving them to waste by not letting them plan out how the match is going to go. Also, putting the character of the wrestler in writers hands and into the writers is killing the generation and is why we have people on this site complaining about the same old guys being in the main event. How is a wrestler supposed to develop his character when he has no control over how it goes. I guarantee that the wrestler knows whats better for himself then some failed sitcom writer .

I sound like Jim Cornette there.

But onto the "Audience of One", I can see where that idea comes from because Vince won't put out something he doesn't like no matter what kind of reaction someone gets from the crowd. Christian probably gets a pop almost at the same level as Cena and Mysterio yet he is stuck on ECW champ. Ok he's champion there but we all know that means shit. If he did something for the fans Christian would've won the MITB. The amount of noise the crowd was making as it seemed he was gonna grab the briefcase was one of the loudest reactions they got that night. Probably the loudest if you exclude the HBK/Taker match. Another reason i can see the audience of one argument is because of the pot shots at JR. Whether it is the Santina thing, the draft, or that whole year where he got shit on and that whole colonoscopy and kissing the ass thing. I'm not a huge JR guy either but i know people definitely didn't want to say it.

I guess in closing I don't things will change in terms of Vince unless something dramatic. Lets just hope things change for the better.

 

[THE Madcap]

A few comments...

I know when i was a kid and wasn't keen on how to use the internet and wanted to find out about wrestlers I'd go to Google or Yahoo.

And the WWE is now catered towards kids...so that would inevitably be a good thing for Vince & the WWE, driving the main demographic to be interested in the product.

Plus, internet seach ratings mean shit to the WWE, the TV ratings is what counts.

Whilst TV ratings will always be their bread & butter and ultimately what drives their advertising/PPV revenue, however internet search ratings are a clear indicator of WWEs position within pop culture.

With people turning up half of the crowd is kids who most will grow out of it and the other half are the people who havent grown out of it which goes back to the loyalty factor sidious was talking about.

when has that been any different of any era of wrestling. You get kids who end up being your hardcore fans and those who end up growing out of it. I've had friends who were hardcore WWF fans of the 90s who grew out of the programming and never saw the Attitude era, likewise friends who watched during the Attitude era, who have since grown out of the product. You really gonna tell me that's an idicator of the quality of product?

Bit of maths... 1/2 kids + half hardcore fans = 1 whole crowd. Bit of common sense...kids can't attend WWE shows on their own, so they go with 1 or more adults. Kids see flashy toy spinner belt and John Cena merchandise, kid wants, adult gets, WWE pockets money. Good.

If you ask me I feel Vince might be a little passed his prime.

God help us all if we have to wait til 60+ to reach our prime

Wrestling in general has always been behind the curve of what is popular. The dudleys doing the wuzzzzup when i guarantee a good portion of the audience has never seen that commercial its so old. MVP doing the ballin' thing when it was played out years ago.

The dudleyz did the wuzzzzzup at the height of its popularity, it became their signiture taunt, most people get the significance. I fail to see also why "Ballin'" is played out, people still use that phrase, refer themselves to ballers, "ballin" is a way of life that's still heavily portrayed in hip hop culture. MVP's gimmick is that of a flashy "baller" type athlete, so it makes sense. Plus, he always gets a good pop with it.

But back to Vince, I don't really think he has a grasp any longer on what the audience wants. I think he's out of touch with what is going on and might need to give more control to someone younger.

This is why he hires writers. If it was your company, you would ultimately want to give the final go ahead to any creative ideas as a major stakeholder in the business, because these decisions can impact on you greatly.

I think another thing that could be a reason for the decline was taking control out of the bookers and wrestlers about how promos and matches should go and handing it over to comedy writers.

WWE is now a form of entertainment. We need to accept this. This is almost like saying actors and guys in charge of casting should be writing the scripts for sitcoms...

HE should've left it in the hands of the bookers/agents and wrestlers because they know more about wrestling then any writer on staff.

As per my above point. WWE = Entertainment 1st, Wrestling 2nd.

They have great minds in Steamboat, Arn and Windham and they are leaving them to waste by not letting them plan out how the match is going to go.

Not every match can be a Steamboat classic, the wrestlers should be working out their own matches themselves, guided by the time constraints put on them, eachothers styles and what needs to go on storylinewise.

How is a wrestler supposed to develop his character when he has no control over how it goes. I guarantee that the wrestler knows whats better for himself then some failed sitcom writer .

Wrestlers creative control worked really well for WCW.

Christian probably gets a pop almost at the same level as Cena and Mysterio yet he is stuck on ECW champ. Ok he's champion there but we all know that means shit.

It's not really feesible to give an automatic push to someone who's redebuted into the company, having come from being a world champion in a weaker, competitors company and who's never been in the main event picture in the WWE. Christian will get his time, once he is ready for it.

If he did something for the fans Christian would've won the MITB. The amount of noise the crowd was making as it seemed he was gonna grab the briefcase was one of the loudest reactions they got that night. Probably the loudest if you exclude the HBK/Taker match.

MVP got the biggest pop when he got closest to the briefcase, only followed by Christian, because we didn't wanna see Punk win again. I would know, I was there.

Another reason i can see the audience of one argument is because of the pot shots at JR. Whether it is the Santina thing, the draft, or that whole year where he got shit on and that whole colonoscopy and kissing the ass thing. I'm not a huge JR guy either but i know people definitely didn't want to say it.

JR needs to lighten up sometimes. Santina, pfft. That was nothing. Play the game, it's entertainment. The draft...well I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that JR acted highly unprofessional here. The whole colonoscopy thing was a big hard to watch, I'll give you that, but Vince was pissed with him leaving the company. The kissing the ass thing was one of the greatest and most unexpected heel turns seen on RAW for a while, great TV.

Lets just hope things change for the better.

Lets.

 

[Smart Mark]

This is a problem I have had with WWE for a long long time, I'm so happy this is actually being discussed. In a word where WWE has no competition it is even more important that ratings drop when the quality of the product is bad. Vince isn't as close minded and spiteful as Mark makes him seem. He is running a company and needs to make money. He is not going to make changed because he is getting good cable ratings and is selling out arenas every where, why change any thing, from a fiscal point of view he is doing every thing right. Cena is crammed down our throats week after week after week because he makes money. His character easily transitions to other media and he sells the most merch(go to a show and count the kids in Cena gear around you). He will stay ontop for as long as he makes money for the company. Even if rates have dropped, why would the WWE change any thing with cable ratings that are really good over all? Why would they change any thing when they set up a ppv and all the seats are filled? If you don't like whats happening in wrestling right now, stop watching. If you are unhappy with the product of the WWE stop giving them money. WWE is a company who sells you 4 products; Raw, SmackDown, ECW, and now Superstars. These products are just like any other that you buy from any other company. If you don't like it don't buy it, and products that don't sell well will either be fixed or tossed. Above some one said that you should just wait it out, but if your continuing to watch and buy PPV's and than just come back here and complain the WWE still has your money and is laughing all the way to the bank. If you pay some one to mow your lawn and they fuck up week after week after week, you don't wait it out under the assumption that "things will get better."

If your unhappy with the product of the WWE, stop watching.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

This thread is ridiculous...

Do you honestly believe that Vince McMahon is that spiteful?? Do you realize that Mr. McMahon the character isn't the same as Mr. McMahon the person? Vince isn't sitting there attempting to ignore what the fans want. The fans make him money...He's not gonna push us like that for the hell of it...Do I feel that Vince doesn't know what the fans want? Yes. But I don't think Vince is cracking a rib from laughing during the Khali Kiss Cam...

I know you can't reply to this since you have been Teddy Harted, but I still felt compelled to respond anyway. If someone else wants to respond on your behalf, they are more than welcomed to.

From most accounts, Vince is a very egotistical and arrogant man. That is what he has a reputation for being, around the industry. And no, that isn't the character of Mr. McMahon. That is the description given by the industry, as a whole, of how Vince McMahon really is.

I think the Mr. McMahon character is essentially himself on steroids. No, he isn't anywhere near as dramatic as that in real life, which goes without saying, but I do agree with how people describe him in that he is pompous, he is stubborn, and he is arrogant.

As far as ignoring fans, I have seen numerous people testify to the Audience of One Philosophy that Vince has.

His TV ratings, PPV buyrates, and arena attendance in the North American market haven't been this low across the board since the New Generation Era. And that is a fact. And I know a lot of fans of today's wrestling don't want to address that, because they like today's product themselves, and they feel the need to defend it. However, from a business perspective, I think the "WHY" is extremely important to pinpoint and discuss.

 

[fungule]

If your unhappy with the product of the WWE, stop watching.

I have. And based on the ratings, so have several others. It is complete garbage right now and Vince McMahon is one of the most overrated 'geniuses' ever. Any original idea he had was a complete failure, IBF, XFL, etc. Seriously how awful was the XFL? If you can't see how out of touch he is with the average viewer, just watch how the XFL was presented.

He lucked through the Attitude era where WCW pretty much did themselves in (with the announcing of Foley becoming champ, letting Jericho/Austin/Guerrero goto WWF). The Attitude era storylines were mainly stolen from ECW and hell most of it was Vince Russo. Plus at that time everything was new because they had never done any edgy programming to that point, so it was a ratings killer. I remember some weeks where Nitro was pulling around a 5.0 and Raw was doing around the same. Now they're the only show and they pull a 3.3, that's a huge drop.

They have worn out the edgy attitude era and every storyline now tries to mimmick what they had but it fails miserably. The writers are guys and girls who never grew up watching wrestling and have no idea what they're doing (see every Kane storyline, May 18, Kane vs Fake Kane, carrying the Rey mask around, come on!). Every freaking RAW also has the same format, open up with long promo, GM intervenes at some point and sets up some tag match or awful stipulation. Rinse, repeat. It's boring and played out.

I have watched wrestling since I was 2, so 25 years, so I'll probably always have some interest in it, but as for me tuning in every week, hell no.. not until they improve the show.

 

[Slyfox696]

His TV ratings, PPV buyrates, and arena attendance in the North American market haven't been this low across the board since the New Generation Era. And that is a fact. And I know a lot of fans of today's wrestling don't want to address that, because they like today's product themselves, and they feel the need to defend it. However, from a business perspective, I think the "WHY" is extremely important to pinpoint and discuss.

This is so terribly misleading, for a number of reasons. First of all, ratings are higher now than they were in the New Generation era by a full ratings point. Second of all, there are over twice as many channels on TV now than there were then. Third of all, the popularity of the NFL has skyrockted in the last ten years. Fourth of all, the creation of the Internet causes a hit in ratings and PPV buyrates. Finally, things like TIVO hurt ratings as well.

What you NEED to look at is the bottom line. And right now, the WWE is pulling in money hand over fist, in a MUCH greater fashion than they ever did during the New Generation Era. Outside of Hulkamania and Attitude, the WWE is doing its best business ever.

The Audience of One theory holds zero weight in my opinion. First of all, there are two inescapable truths when it comes to pro wrestling. The main-eventers are what sells your promotion, and the best way to get a person over with the fans is long term exposure. When you look at the WWE and the way they book, those two truths are very apparent. People talk about how Vince books for himself...but look at the main-event. Does that look like he books for himself, or is it booked in a fashion that is going to sell the promotion? Clearly, they book to sell the promotion.

For the undercard stuff? Who cares? Maybe Vince uses it as his plaything, maybe he doesn't, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that these undercard wrestlers are getting valuable experience every night, and they are getting more and more exposure to the audience.

So, the Audience of One theory is silly, because Vince only books to make money. And trying to use undercard shenanigans to say that he does it to amuse himself is pointless, because the undercard sells nothing and can afford to be booked for any reason at all.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I have. And based on the ratings, so have several others. It is complete garbage right now and Vince McMahon is one of the most overrated 'geniuses' ever. Any original idea he had was a complete failure, IBF, XFL, etc. Seriously how awful was the XFL? If you can't see how out of touch he is with the average viewer, just watch how the XFL was presented.

He lucked through the Attitude era where WCW pretty much did themselves in (with the announcing of Foley becoming champ, letting Jericho/Austin/Guerrero goto WWF). The Attitude era storylines were mainly stolen from ECW and hell most of it was Vince Russo. Plus at that time everything was new because they had never done any edgy programming to that point, so it was a ratings killer. I remember some weeks where Nitro was pulling around a 5.0 and Raw was doing around the same. Now they're the only show and they pull a 3.3, that's a huge drop.

They have worn out the edgy attitude era and every storyline now tries to mimmick what they had but it fails miserably. The writers are guys and girls who never grew up watching wrestling and have no idea what they're doing (see every Kane storyline, May 18, Kane vs Fake Kane, carrying the Rey mask around, come on!). Every freaking RAW also has the same format, open up with long promo, GM intervenes at some point and sets up some tag match or awful stipulation. Rinse, repeat. It's boring and played out.

I have watched wrestling since I was 2, so 25 years, so I'll probably always have some interest in it, but as for me tuning in every week, hell no.. not until they improve the show.

Great post. And you hit the nail on the head with the format being exactly the same every single God damn week. You feel like you are literally watching the same show every single, solitary week. All the shows look exactly the same, they follow the same format, same open, same bland commentary, same GM interference, GM then makes a match, then there is controversy in the main event .... it is basically the exact same show every single week, several times a week. Where the Hell is the variety? Furthermore, how can people not get sick and tired of watching the same show every single week?

I am asking this question very honestly and looking for honest answers and opinions. How do you not get sick and tired of watching the same show every week?

And as far as others calling your bluff in telling you to tune out, glad to see you did. I did before, and I will again. It angers me because I've been a fan of his product for going on 2 decades, and this man has completely taken away almost everything I enjoyed about the product.

This is what the "Audience of One" Philosophy has done to the product


He has no interesting characters left on the roster (he killed Orton's character)
He has removed any and all interesting and complex storylines
He has removed all edginess from the product, and offers no product alternatives.
He has failed to replace The Rock and Steve Austin's departures, and failed to create new and interesting characters
He has removed the managers from the show
He has removed almost all emphasis on the Mid Card
He has destroyed the Tag Team Division
He has removed Face/Heel Commentary Teams and replaced them with Bland, Boring commentary teams.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

This is so terribly misleading, for a number of reasons. First of all, ratings are higher now than they were in the New Generation era by a full ratings point. Second of all, there are over twice as many channels on TV now than there were then. Third of all, the popularity of the NFL has skyrockted in the last ten years. Fourth of all, the creation of the Internet causes a hit in ratings and PPV buyrates. Finally, things like TIVO hurt ratings as well.

What you NEED to look at is the bottom line. And right now, the WWE is pulling in money hand over fist, in a MUCH greater fashion than they ever did during the New Generation Era. Outside of Hulkamania and Attitude, the WWE is doing its best business ever.

The Audience of One theory holds zero weight in my opinion. First of all, there are two inescapable truths when it comes to pro wrestling. The main-eventers are what sells your promotion, and the best way to get a person over with the fans is long term exposure. When you look at the WWE and the way they book, those two truths are very apparent. People talk about how Vince books for himself...but look at the main-event. Does that look like he books for himself, or is it booked in a fashion that is going to sell the promotion? Clearly, they book to sell the promotion.

For the undercard stuff? Who cares? Maybe Vince uses it as his plaything, maybe he doesn't, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that these undercard wrestlers are getting valuable experience every night, and they are getting more and more exposure to the audience.

So, the Audience of One theory is silly, because Vince only books to make money. And trying to use undercard shenanigans to say that he does it to amuse himself is pointless, because the undercard sells nothing and can afford to be booked for any reason at all.

Slyfox, I look at things from a business Point of view AND definitely take that primarily into consideration when I post, but I also take into consideration my own point of view as a fan of the product .... and then I weigh that point of view with the feedback I see of other fans and their thoughts on the product ..... and then form my conclusions.

And I'm sorry, but my opinions stands as is. Ratings, buyrates, and attendance haven't been this low since the New Generation Era. They may be higher than the New Generation Era, but they haven't been as low since then.

Vince may be happy because he knows he can take advantage of his base of fans, who buys his crap no matter what ... by raising his PPV prices, his show prices, the price of merchandise .... run a few more overseas shows ... cut salaries, cut the office, eliminate production values from house shows, and make other cuts across the board ... and turn a more profitable product. That's fine and dandy.

BUT, my point is that he would have a larger fanbase, and thus produce greater revenues, IF he would listen to his audience, which I have seen zero evidence that he is willing to do. Again, he is as smug as can be since he eliminated all his competition, and that is the primary reason wrestling is in the state it is today. And he can thank the Attitude Era for allowing him to be able to do that, in the first place.

 

[fungule]

He has removed the managers from the show

I don't have much to add as I feel we are both on the same page with our opinions, but this point made me think about Armando Alejandro Estrada. How over was that dude when he was managing Umaga? It was ridiculous, dude was a heel, he had the entire crowd talking along with his introduction, and what do they do? Absolutely bury him and clearly tell him to stop introducing himself like that. WTF? Sure, they wanted to get Umaga over, but really if this was in the past, both Estrada and Umaga could've co-existed, if not fed off each other to reach a higher level than Umaga has reached alone. Instead now you have Estrada future endeavored and Umaga going through the "rinse, repeat" of looking strong but ultimately losing (see Kane, Big Show, Kozlov, etc) every feud.

Oh well.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I don't have much to add as I feel we are both on the same page with our opinions, but this point made me think about Armando Alejandro Estrada. How over was that dude when he was managing Umaga? It was ridiculous, dude was a heel, he had the entire crowd talking along with his introduction, and what do they do? Absolutely bury him and clearly tell him to stop introducing himself like that. WTF? Sure, they wanted to get Umaga over, but really if this was in the past, both Estrada and Umaga could've co-existed, if not fed off each other to reach a higher level than Umaga has reached alone. Instead now you have Estrada future endeavored and Umaga going through the "rinse, repeat" of looking strong but ultimately losing (see Kane, Big Show, Kozlov, etc) every feud.

Oh well.

The sad thing is that I don't think Armando was anywhere near the best managers of all time list, but I think it was so refreshing for the fans to see a manager with personality, since Vince hadn't given one of them in ages ... that they ate it up. So what does Vince do? He takes him away and punishes him. Unbelievable.

I remember back in the day when Bobby Heenan and Rick Rude, who were both great on the mic, would be packaged together, and be one Hell of a team .... or when Jimmy Hart was paired with Honky Tonk Man, and they sold the gimmick together as a team.

Then, one day, all that changed, and Vince eliminated managers ... thus removing one of the most entertaining elements out of his product.

 

[Slyfox696]

And I'm sorry, but my opinions stands as is. Ratings, buyrates, and attendance haven't been this low since the New Generation Era. They may be higher than the New Generation Era, but they haven't been as low since then.

But, you're wrong, which is the biggest problem you have.

Ratings may be lower now, but there are a TON of factors which play into that, and so criticizing on the base value of a rating, when you compare them to ratings of ten and fifteen years ago is silly. That's like comparing a baseball player today, with the benefit of steroids, HGH, legal supplements, improved weight training techniques, better bats, more hitter friendly parks, etc., against a player who hit in the 1960s, with the raised mound and no drugs. Trying to say that Brady Anderson was a better hitter than Willie Stargell because Anderson once hit 52 HRs in a season and Stargell routinely hit in the 20-30 HR range, is ridiculous...just like it is to compare the ratings numbers now to ten or fifteen years ago.

As far as buyrates and attendance go, once again your information is skewed. Again, there are several factors to take in. For example, the WWE was actually making a LOT more money from PPVs in 2005 and 2006 than they were before. The overall buyrates may have been lower, but the money was higher because of higher PPV price. And as far as attendance goes, you said you downloaded that information I put together. Look it over. Your attendance theory doesn't hold water, especially when you factor higher ticket prices and slumping economy.

Vince may be happy because he knows he can take advantage of his sucker fan base, who buys his crap no matter what

What you consider crap, another person considers enjoyable. You can't impose your opinions as more important than anothers...especially when that other is paying for his entertainment.

... by raising his PPV prices, his show prices, the price of merchandise .... run a few more overseas shows

That's called the law of supply and demand. You're a smart person, you know this.

... cut salaries, cut the office, eliminate production values from house shows, and make other cuts across the board

It's called eliminating dead weight. Every company does it, especially the ones interested in making money.

BUT, my point is that he would have a larger fanbase, and thus produce greater revenues, IF he would listen to his audience, which I have seen zero evidence that he is willing to do.

Are you kidding? How does he not listen to his audience? Why is John Cena the face of the company? Why did we have a DX reunion? Why is Jeff Hardy in the main-event? Why did RVD become a World Champion? Why is Rey Mysterio still around?

The fact of the matter is that Vince DOES listen to his audience. However, he doesn't listen to just one SEGMENT of his audience, which is what seems to bother you. Instead, he books for his ENTIRE audience...children, women, teens, young adults and older people. He books for everyone, and tries to offer a little something that everyone can enjoy. And, it's a good business strategy.

How does Vince not listen to his audience? Give me an example of him not listening to his audience.

Again, he is as smug as can be since he eliminated all his competition, and that is the primary reason wrestling is in the state it is today.

Incredibly successful? Highly visible in main-stream media? Putting out theater movies? Providing a traveling entertainment show which is arguably the greatest company of entertainment in the history of the United States?

Is that the state you are referring to?

And he can thank the Attitude Era for allowing him to be able to do that, in the first place.

The Attitude Era allowed him to survive temporarily. But where the Attitude Era kept him afloat and brought in much needed capital (albeit a lot of capital), the Attitude Era was targeted at ONE type of fan, and that was the 16-24 male demographic. But, as wrestling has proven to do time and again, it lost those fans between the ages of 21-25. And look what happened. On May 1 2000, we saw a cable rating of 7.4. On May 5, 2003, just three years later, Raw pulled a 3.5 rating. That's a drop of nearly FOUR RATINGS POINTS. That's ridiculous. And why did that happen? Because the WWE targeted only one audience, and they all left in those three years.

That's why you can't listen to just one segment of the audience, which what it seems you are looking for. You have to book for your WHOLE audience, and while some young males may piss and moan about a PG rating, the fact of the matter is that it stabilizes your company, cultivates a new audience, and puts more money in your coffers.


That's how you know McMahon doesn't book for one person. Because he offers such a large variety of wrestling, to appeal to his entire audience. Vince DOES listen to his audience.

 

[Big Daddy Fool]

when has that been any different of any era of wrestling. You get kids who end up being your hardcore fans and those who end up growing out of it. I've had friends who were hardcore WWF fans of the 90s who grew out of the programming and never saw the Attitude era, likewise friends who watched during the Attitude era, who have since grown out of the product. You really gonna tell me that's an idicator of the quality of product?

just going back to what sidious was talking about loyalty. Didn't say anything about it being an indicator of the quality of the wwe's product

Bit of maths... 1/2 kids + half hardcore fans = 1 whole crowd. Bit of common sense...kids can't attend WWE shows on their own, so they go with 1 or more adults. Kids see flashy toy spinner belt and John Cena merchandise, kid wants, adult gets, WWE pockets money. Good.

Your nickpicking at my comments so you can go on a rant never said it was bad for business.

God help us all if we have to wait til 60+ to reach our prime

Well, 1 i didnt say he just reached his prime, I said he may of passed it. I'm assuming you meant that you wish you were 60+ to exit our prime. if that is the case i continued by saying

Even if that is true it's not a bad thing the man had an excellent run that is incomparable.

I gave him all the credit in the world. Most people would wish they had the drive and passion vince does at that age. I once again think your taking things out of context so you can have something to rant about that makes you look like the smartest mark

The dudleyz did the wuzzzzzup at the height of its popularity, it became their signiture taunt, most people get the significance. I fail to see also why "Ballin'" is played out, people still use that phrase, refer themselves to ballers, "ballin" is a way of life that's still heavily portrayed in hip hop culture. MVP's gimmick is that of a flashy "baller" type athlete, so it makes sense. Plus, he always gets a good pop with it.

On countless shoot interviews and from what internet wrestling shows ive listened to have all agreed about this. For example Tommy Fierro's show just talked about this topic with his guests.

This is why he hires writers. If it was your company, you would ultimately want to give the final go ahead to any creative ideas as a major stakeholder in the business, because these decisions can impact on you greatly.

I have nothing against hiring writers. But the writers hired should have a passion for the business. Not some hack that couldnt make it in hollywood.

Not every match can be a Steamboat classic, the wrestlers should be working out their own matches themselves, guided by the time constraints put on them, eachothers styles and what needs to go on storylinewise.

Taking one name out of a list of guys i named. Didn't say anythign about every match being a steamboat classic. They have these great wrestling minds at their disposal, yet they aren't being used to their fullest extent. They should go back to the way things were about 10 years ago when they had their agents/ bookers set up the matches with the wrestlers. Also, wrestler do work the matches on there own but the reason forthe road agents/bookers is to guide them with the time constraints and storylines.

Wrestlers creative control worked really well for WCW.

No where did i say creative control. The creative control in WCW killed them bc they were able to say no to a job. Thats not what i said and not what I'm talking about. HHH, Steve Austin, and The Rock were originally stuck with lame gimmicks but when they were allowed to be themselves and put their take on their characters they became legends. Thats what I am talking about wrestlers being able to infuse a bit of their own personalities instead of being restrained by writers and having to stick to a script.

It's not really feesible to give an automatic push to someone who's redebuted into the company, having come from being a world champion in a weaker, competitors company and who's never been in the main event picture in the WWE. Christian will get his time, once he is ready for it.

Bill Goldberg WWE debut, Hulk Hogan WWE 2nd and third run, and Save us Jericho got pushed to a title match in his re debut are all people who got pushed right away. The WWE had a perfect set up with Jeff beaten in hall way for it to be Christian. Either way he should of been paired up with Edge either with him or against him, instead we got ECW.

JR needs to lighten up sometimes. Santina, pfft. That was nothing. Play the game, it's entertainment. The draft...well I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that JR acted highly unprofessional here. The whole colonoscopy thing was a big hard to watch, I'll give you that, but Vince was pissed with him leaving the company. The kissing the ass thing was one of the greatest and most unexpected heel turns seen on RAW for a while, great TV.

Wasn't talking about whether JR needs to lighten up or not I was talking about what the thread is about Audience of one and i was giving an example. Read and reply to things in the context to which they are given. The man toys with JR (Im not even a fan of JR) its been noted on the main site and the posters here, im not pulling this out of my ass.

I respect your opinion but it bothers me that you take things out of context and nickpick at things.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I was reading Mark Madden's latest column, which is usually a great read because I feel like he tells it like it is, and pulls no punches. A majority of his opinions directly reflect my very same opinions, as well.

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I like to tell it like it is, and pull no punches, either. And I see Mark Madden's columns to often be the work of a fat, bitter, ex-commentator who is pissed off he couldn't get a commentary job with either WWE or TNA, and has a vendetta against them for that, rather than admit that he isn't a commentator any more because he sucked when on WCW.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's focus on the first part of the column ... which I pasted below, and then we'll address a few points in it.






I have heard the "Audience of One" philosophy emphasized over and over and over again over the years, and have certainly come to believe that this is exactly what is transpiring with today's product.

In essence, Vince puts himself in the mindset of being a wrestling fan and putting on TV what he feels like "he wants to see", and then instructs Stephanie and the writing team to give him exactly what he wants.

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I think that Vince having the mindset of a wrestling fan, and putting on TV what he feels "he wants to see" isn't always a bad thing.

Firstly, someone who has the mindset of a wrestling fan SHOULD be booking wrestling. The problem with Raw is that they hire too many soap opera and TV writers, but few who actually know about wrestling. I would rather a "wrestling fan", who knows something about it, however flawed, book wrestling, rather than someone who doesn't know a piledriver from a pile of bricks.

Also, Vince can't always get it wrong following this philosophy. I was convinced, leading up to WM, that the Undertaker would end up fighting either JBL, or Vladimar Kozlov, despite HBK being the logical opponent, because Vince likes "big men", and they were mentioning Kozlov being "undefeated" (which made me think that they were doing "Undefeated" Kozlov versus Taker's Undefeated Streak). But sanity prevailed, and HBK won the spot to fight Taker at WM25. Now, everyone wanted to see this, and Vince booked it, because he wanted to see it too. So, he gave the fans what they, and he , wanted.

Also, if Vince only booked for himself, and never for the fans, then how come the WWE is a multi-milllion dollar company? It would be broke if Vince never listened to the fans. When Vince books what both he and we want, what does it matter? The fans are happy, and if Vince is happy too, all the better (it increases the chances of what we want to have happen to actually happen). He gave us Hogan-Andre, and Austin v Vince, and I haven't heard any complaints. If Vince had such a hold over WWE, that his view is the only one that counts, then he wonuldn't have given us things that pleased the fans as well. So, give credit when him "booking as a fan" is right.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, he is the Chairman, however is this Point of View not considered to be selfish? Imagine going back to everyone's days in High School, and you are working in a group. Now, you are supposed to be a team and coming up with ideas together, but one member of the group insists that "we are going to do things his way, and that's the end of the story."
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Every group must have a leader. Also, while everyone's contribution is important, someone must make the final decision, otherwise you have chaos. When different people on a team have different ideas, not everyone will get all of what they want all of the time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

How can someone be so closed-minded and so arrogant to assume that "he is always right"? Because that is the philosophy Vince evidently has. That "he is always right, and that the fans are wrong" ... which Madden points out.




What happens when the judgment of this person begins to falter? And a large number of customers are unhappy with his particular vision? How can one simply tell himself that millions of fans are "wrong" and that "he is right" in this case?

Secondly, when low ratings or poor buyrates are produced, what are your thoughts on Vince McMahon giving static to the writing team and putting the blame on them, as opposed to himself?

Case and point with ECW's December to Dismember. Vince McMahon started his new WWECW as a toned down version of Paul Heyman's ECW. Gradually, he began to alter the image of ECW, by slowly transforming the show into a developmental show ... all the while telling Heyman exactly what he wanted.

Before the show, Heyman is not happy with the show that was written, whatsoever. He tells Vince several times that "the fans are going to throw this right back in our face". Vince, happy with the show's script, says "full steam ahead"

Show time occurs, and the show was extremely poorly received. And instead of Vince sucking up responsibility for the show, he places all of the blame on Paul Heyman, and sends him home, while relieving him of his responsibilities as a writer of ECW.

What are your thoughts on Vince McMahon and his concept of "accepting responsibility", with what he did to Heyman?


Raw has gone from a 4.1 rating, down to a 3.3 last week. This week, it is safe to assume it may be even lower.

I see a lot of Vince defenders on here say that "the problem is with us, the fans. We expect too much." However, is that really the case, or is Vince simply giving us a sub-par product, that fits his vision, and he simply does not care what anyone else thinks?

To those Vince defenders, I want to raise the suggestion that the reason so many people are upset is because perhaps Vince is only booking to please himself, and is not listening to his customers, whatsoever, in what they are telling him they want to see.


I still maintain the biggest problem with wrestling is Vince's elimination of the competition, and his refusal to replace the industry with product alternatives that his competitors offered. That killed the interest in wrestling, in my view. It isn't the fans, but rather poor judgment on the part of Vince. However, is he going to admit this? Absolutely not.
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This is what the "Audience of One" Philosophy has done to the product


He has no interesting characters left on the roster (he killed Orton's character)
He has removed any and all interesting and complex storylines
He has removed all edginess from the product, and offers no product alternatives.
He has failed to replace The Rock and Steve Austin's departures, with a star of their magnitude
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no stars of Austin or The Rock's magintude in wrestling at the moment. When Hulk Hogan left WWE, it took years before the WWE could promote a superstar of his magnitude (which turned out to be Austin). WWE tried Bret Hart, HBK and even Lex Luger in that role, but none of them had "it" like Hogan and Austin.

You can't blame WWE. It is just that there is no-one- NO-ONE- who can meet the excitement and "aura" that Austin had.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
He has removed the managers from the show
He has removed almost all emphasis on the Mid Card
He has destroyed the Tag Team Division
He has removed Face/Heel Commentary Teams and replaced them with Bland, Boring commentary teams.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

JBL and Mick Foley were terrific commentators, as is J.R. The commentators just seem bland because Jerry Lawler wants the fans to love him (and finds it hard to sound evil with a squeaky voice), and Michael Cole is completely hopeless, except for kissing Vince's ass.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, what are your thoughts on all of that, and Vince's "Audience of One" philosophy?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the end, Vince took a small company, and turned it into a multi-million-dollar industry, now seen worldwide. He has to have doing something right.

If Vince didn't do what "he " wanted, we wouldn't have "Wrestlemania", "the Attitude Era" or anything else which has made money and entertained fans for over twenty years.

 

[only1soe]

I totally disagree when Mark Madden says, "WWE is for an audience of one." First let me mention that he was in the worst era of WCW and was one of the worst announcers I had ever heard. He was disgusting to listen to and watch. I realize Madden says he isnt going to lose weight, brush his teeth or get his teeth fixed to be on TV but pal you are on TV not radio. You want people to watch not turn away. I looked at WCW at that point and thought that they were just getting real sloppy looking.

WWE is not booked for an audience of one. Misery loves company that why a lot of folks like to jump on the band wagon with madden. I am not pleased with product but its not horrible.

Vince did something right to get wrestling as big as it is today. You can NEVER take that away from him and its the ultimate trump card. How horrible would the product be if every loud mouth announcer really had their say in Vince's product through out the years. It would likely be where WCW is today....DEAD!

 

[THE Madcap]

Firstly let me say, I'm not nitpicking at you or your post. I have no reason to do so, as you can probably tell I'm nopt a regular poster to the wrestling side, I only really chip in where I deem necessary, and your post brought a few things to my attention. My post was in no way a rant and I have no idea why I would want to look like a smark, I hate those guys with a passion, I have a lot more things to do with my time than have pointless debates on a wrestling forum, hence why I can mostly be found in the Bar Room. My main point was how the product is now catered to kids and as a form of entertainment. This in turn influences many different factors that have to be taken into consideration with the booking. Marketing towards kids, although many may not agree with, is a very clever way of making money as really you have 2 revenue streams, the tshirts, toys, belts, mysterio masks for the kids, tshirts, dvds, PPVs etc for the adults. Vince is all about the money and as a businessman, should be.

On countless shoot interviews and from what internet wrestling shows ive listened to have all agreed about this. For example Tommy Fierro's show just talked about this topic with his guests.

So basically the IWC thing this is out of date? It's a much bandied about fact that the IWC represent <10% of total wrestling fans, so Vince and the writing team shouldnt have to cater specifically for them. The wazzzzzup taunt still gets a pop, even in TNA, so all's good.

I have nothing against hiring writers. But the writers hired should have a passion for the business. Not some hack that couldnt make it in hollywood.

You're right, the writers should have have a passion for the business. But the landscape of the WWE has changed dramatically in the last 10-15 years, and the business is now about entertainment. Hence why entertainment writers "should" be a perfect fit. sadly they're not. I don't think the writers who could make it in Hollywood would piss on the WWE, if they were on fire.

Taking one name out of a list of guys i named. Didn't say anythign about every match being a steamboat classic.

I took one name out of the guys mentioned because I didn't feel the need to mention all 3. Lazy posting on my part I guess... Sorry.

They should go back to the way things were about 10 years ago when they had their agents/ bookers set up the matches with the wrestlers. Also, wrestler do work the matches on there own but the reason forthe road agents/bookers is to guide them with the time constraints and storylines.

Please note my point above about the landscape of the WWE.

No where did i say creative control.

You alluded to it with saying wrestlers should have control over their gimmicks

Thats not what i said and not what I'm talking about. HHH, Steve Austin, and The Rock were originally stuck with lame gimmicks but when they were allowed to be themselves and put their take on their characters they became legends. Thats what I am talking about wrestlers being able to infuse a bit of their own personalities instead of being restrained by writers and having to stick to a script.

This wasn't at a time where WWE made PG programming. When your product is being put out to kids, you gotta monitor/filter the content and the best way to do this is script everything. Sad as it may be, that's the way it has to be for them to stay out of the media blacklist.

Bill Goldberg WWE debut, Hulk Hogan WWE 2nd and third run, and Save us Jericho got pushed to a title match in his re debut are all people who got pushed right away. The WWE had a perfect set up with Jeff beaten in hall way for it to be Christian. Either way he should of been paired up with Edge either with him or against him, instead we got ECW.

You honestly can't compare Christian to Goldberg and Hogan?! They were massive draws and legitimate main eventers. Christian has yet to proove he is ready for the step up to WWE main event material, whilst Goldberg had dominated the WCW main event and likewise Hogan had with WWF and WCW. Jericho's return was so hyped up and anticipated that a title shot was needed to accompany the fanfare with his debut and justify the hype. The only hype christian's return got was the MEM giving him a funeral on iMPACT.

Mark Madden is a nobody IMO and I could care less for his opinion. Crap announcer who is now trying to get his name out there by badmouthing the WWE. Nobody cares Mark...

 

[SenorAmazing]

Vince has proven that he is not making the show just to his liking.

Vince never really liked the Hardys, in terms of pushing them higher up the card anyway. But he pushed Jeff to be WWE champion.

Now while this is true remember that Vince's selfishness is the thing that kept the title from Hardy in the first place. The only reason Vince gave him the title was because Jeff was the most over superstar and realized that people would start pillaging villages if Jeff didn't win the championship.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

In the end, Vince took a small company, and turned it into a multi-million-dollar industry, now seen worldwide. He has to have doing something right.

If Vince didn't do what "he " wanted, we wouldn't have "Wrestlemania", "the Attitude Era" or anything else which has made money and entertained fans for over twenty years.

See, this is the biggest problem I have with Vince defenders. They are living in the past.

Sure, Vince did all of those things, and sure Vince deserves credit for all of it. However, that does not mean that an aging Vince McMahon is still the same Vince McMahon responsible for all those things.

As far as the Attitude Era, Vince McMahon had no idea where to take the company before that period. Only after listening to Vince Russo's proposals did he then follow suit, and enjoy the success that Era brought.

But people change, as they get older. You have to judge people's performances in the Here and Now, as opposed to beating a dead horse, and trying to justify someone's lackluster performance in the present by frequently citing what one did 10, 20, and 30 years ago.

I do not have this "blind loyalty" towards Vince McMahon, like others such as yourself, seem to have. The man has had more than his fair share of failures over time, as well, and is certainly not above criticism, just like everyone else.

But, you're wrong, which is the biggest problem you have.

Well, I don't think I am, Sly because the numbers don't lie. And if you stick up for today's product, and Vince offering one universal product, then I think you are the one who is wrong. But let's continue and we'll take it as we go.

Ratings may be lower now, but there are a TON of factors which play into that, and so criticizing on the base value of a rating, when you compare them to ratings of ten and fifteen years ago is silly.

Okay, it seems like the only way to back those with this mentality into a corner is to do this.

A rating is just a number, right? Ratings fluctuate depending on the audience. So let's do this.

1) True or False? The wrestling fanbase of today is larger than the wrestling fanbase of the Attitude Era?

2) True or False? The wrestling fanbase of today is larger than the wrestling fanbase of the Post-Attitude Era? (2001-2006)

As far as buyrates and attendance go, once again your information is skewed. Again, there are several factors to take in. For example, the WWE was actually making a LOT more money from PPVs in 2005 and 2006 than they were before. The overall buyrates may have been lower, but the money was higher because of higher PPV price. And as far as attendance goes, you said you downloaded that information I put together. Look it over. Your attendance theory doesn't hold water, especially when you factor higher ticket prices and slumping economy.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse with the "higher ticket price" argument. Why did Vince raise ticket prices, to begin with? Could it be because of declining attendance, and the fact he had to make up for the lost revenue?

Let's examine the average attendance over the years from the information you posted, as well as consider the number of events ran each year, and ticket prices, as well, and determine how that affected attendance:


Arena Attendance:


1998 7,339 218
1999 11,558 199
2000 12,136 206 $27
2001 11,793 212 $33
2002 8,439 237 $36
2003 5,551 327 $39
2004 5,006 329 $41
2005 4,975 325 $48
2006 4,990 248 $37
2007 6,600 232 $40
2008 6,400 242 $41



Objective Conclusions that can be drawn from this:


Generally speaking, the greater # of shows ran, with the highest avg ticket price, produces the lowest attendance: 2005


Generally speaking, the fewer # of shows ran, with the lowest avg ticket price, produces the highest attendance: 2000


Attendance has increased in the last two years, however I point to that being due to WWE reducing the travel schedule in North America by approximately 100 events per year, and thus not running as many shows in the same market each year.

What you consider crap, another person considers enjoyable. You can't impose your opinions as more important than anothers...especially when that other is paying for his entertainment.

As someone who has studied and followed the business for 2 decades, and has purchased 90% of the WWE PPV's from 1990 through 2006, yes I most definitely feel I do have that right, and have earned it. Don't make it sound like I haven't paid tons of money to this company, to earn my spot to critique it, as this company has made thousands and thousands of dollars from me.

However, if today's fans want to call the product I enjoyed "crap", which many do, then I feel I have the right to do the same. This is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, just as I feel you are entitled to yours.

That's called the law of supply and demand. You're a smart person, you know this.

It's called eliminating dead weight. Every company does it, especially the ones interested in making money.

None of that is rocket science. My point is that it is easy to manipulate profitability. Imagine if Vince tried to do those same cost-cutting measures back when he did have higher attendance and buys.

Are you kidding? How does he not listen to his audience? Why is John Cena the face of the company?

Because he busts his ass. He stays in the Main Event because he currently sells the most merchandise, and let's be frank ... Vince shoved him down everyone's throats. Vince kept the title on Cena for a year, despite him being the Most Unpopular Top Face in WWE history and was getting a very large amount of boos in arenas across the country.

Why did we have a DX reunion?

Certainly not because Vince was listening to the fans. Vince had DX glowsticks that needed to be sold. I certainly didn't hear fans demanding a DX reunion.

Why is Jeff Hardy in the main-event?

Because given the pending retirement of Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, and Batista, Vince is being forced to create new Main Event stars. It's pretty clear that Vince does not have a lot of faith in Jeff Hardy, given Hardy's track record ... thus he only gave him the title for a month.

Care to take wagers on whether or not Jeff is going to take the title from Edge at Judgment Day?

Why did RVD become a World Champion?

He won the titles essentially as a Bait and Switch on the part of McMahon and an investment into the ECW Brand. Vince obviously knew that RVD was essentially the face of the old ECW. He lured the fans in, and gave the title to the Big Show shortly thereafter.

Regarding his WWE Title win, how long did RVD have it for? Less than a month.

June 11, 2006 to July 3, 2006, where he lost it back to one of Vince's favorites. Edge. He won the title to get a good pop from the fans at One Night Stand, and as an investment into that Brand.

But the fact that he kept it for less than a month ... just like Jeff Hardy, only to lose it back to Edge (also like Jeff), speaks volumes.


....

Now as far as the ECW Championship win. He won it on June 13, 2006. Again, as an investment into the ECW Brand. He lost the title on July 4, 2006 to The Big Show.

Here, you have one of the most over performers on the roster, and his World Title Reigns were both for less than a month, ironically enough (sarcasm) when WWECW was just getting off the ground.

Why is Rey Mysterio still around?

Why wouldn't he be? Vince needs wrestlers, doesn't he?

Additionally, Rey brings in Hispanic viewers and sells masks on behalf of the company.

Why would Vince get rid of him if he makes money?

The fact of the matter is that Vince DOES listen to his audience. However, he doesn't listen to just one SEGMENT of his audience, which is what seems to bother you. Instead, he books for his ENTIRE audience...children, women, teens, young adults and older people.

Yes, and trying to tell older adults that they should like the exact same thing that a kid likes is unrealistic in the year 2009. Nobody is arguing that Vince still isn't making money. My argument is that he could make more money and bring in a larger base audience if he only replaced the programming alternatives he eliminated from his competition.

I am also not arguing to do away with PG programming. It has its place. But so does TV14 programming, in this business. And both draw substantially.


Here is an overview of who is watching WWE, taken right off the WWE Corporate site:

Demographics

* 86% are male
* Mean Age = 24 yrs old
* 36% are ages 12-17
* 58% are ages 18-49
* 40% are males 18-34
* 39% are non-white
* 62% of males 18-34 are full time employed
* 41% are student
* 78% have high speed connections

So my question, given that 58% of Vince's audience is aged 18-49 is, "Why are you not aggressively going after this audience, by tailoring a program to them?"

It is the interests of the 18-49 year olds that should be made the priority. Not the other way around.

Again, I am not saying that Vince should be ignoring Kids. Absolutely not. Quite the other way around. But the question is and where the disagreement in philosophy I have is "What is the strategy that should be executed, so that you can appeal to both kids and adults?"

If you want to appeal to both, then there are really 2 choices:


1) Use all of your television outlets to put out a generic product, not specifically geared towards any audience, and attempt to appeal to all audiences (what WWE is doing now)

OR

2) Use each of your television outlets to put out a variety of wrestling products (3), each designed to specifically target the key demos, with the intent on bringing in new fans and reclaiming some old ones, by specifically gearing your programming to their interests.


In other words:


A) Raw- geared towards older teens and adults (TV-14)
B) Smackdown- suitable for all ages (PG product)
C) ECW- niche brand with a theme, targeting more hardcore fans of wrestling. Either a hardcore product or a cruiserweight product.


Therefore, offering true programming alternatives specifically targeted to different audiences, with the sum of each of the shows audiences making up the total WWE Audience.

I have yet to hear a compelling reason why WWE needs to target the same audience on each of the 4 shows, and have them all watch those shows. For what purpose? Why not use those outlets, to target different demos by tailoring your programs to each of their interests, thereby duplicating the formula for success in the wrestling boom period?

He books for everyone, and tries to offer a little something that everyone can enjoy. And, it's a good business strategy.

If you look at WWE as one company, only having the capability of putting out one product, as it has in the past, then that strategy is up for discussion. However, as stated, kids are clearly not the majority of Vince's audience.

However, if you change the vision of how you look at WWE, which is what I think Vince needs to do ... and envision yourself as a global distributor of a VARIETY of wrestling products, then I feel this current strategy is poor. Because you are clearly not taking advantage of the full potential of each of your television outlets.

Those television shows could be used to create true, viable, separate Brand alternatives, unlike what we see today ... which at the end of the day, is still one universal product, simply with the main shows featuring different names.

What I am proposing is not rocket science and nothing that hasn't been done before. The only difference is that Vince would receive all the profits, this time, as opposed to dividing them between his competitors, Eric Bischoff and Paul Heyman.

Vince did McMahon's Million $ Giveaway for a reason. Clearly he knows he lost a large portion of his audience over the years, and tried to bring them back by essentially paying them off. That isn't going to work, though, as you aren't going to bring fans back and retain them by paying them off. Rather, you have to retain fans by offering them programming that suits their interests.

How does Vince not listen to his audience? Give me an example of him not listening to his audience.

Vince did not listen to his audience when he kept John Cena as champion for a year, when clearly the audience was overwhelmingly booing him during that time period.

Vince is not listening to the audience today, when there are a large number of complaints about the direction of the toned-down product. Jim Ross even acknowledged it in his column that there are a lot of complaints.

Vince did not listen to his audience when he re-invented ECW. One can not dispute that the interest was as high as it was because Vince led his fanbase to believe that he was bringing back the original ECW. The show's first rating was a 2.8 ... which is higher than Smackdown was then, and what Smackdown is today.

Vince did not listen to his audience when he made Bobby Lashley and The Big Show the faces for that particular Brand.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when he essentially tries to tell them what to think, by having security audit the fan made signs that are brought into the arena.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase, by restricting Fan Favorites like Jeff Hardy and RVD (examples you used) to less than one month Title Reigns.

Vince did not listen to his fanbase when the overwhelming feedback to Randy Orton's psychotic character was positive, so he reversed course, and turned him into another run-of-the-mill heel.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when they ask for more prominence to be placed on the Mid Card.

Vince does not listen to his fanbase when they ask for more Tag Teams and and a greater effort placed on the Tag Team Division.

Vince does not listen to his fans when they ask for more sexuality from the Divas, compared to what we've seen over the past couple years (for obvious reasons).

Vince did not listen to his fans, who wanted to see Cena vs Orton and Triple H vs Edge at Wrestlemania. When he caught wind of this, he gave the public two stale feuds that have been literally beaten into the ground over the years. That being Cena vs Edge and Triple H vs Orton.

I could go on and on.

Incredibly successful? Highly visible in main-stream media?

"HIGHLY" visible in Mainstream Media? Vince is regarded as a joke, in most Mainstream Media. He should receive more respect than he does, but let's be honest here. Vince is not HIGHLY visible in Mainstream Media.

Putting out theater movies?

That completely bomb and are regarded as jokes.

Providing a traveling entertainment show which is arguably the greatest company of entertainment in the history of the United States?

By who's standards? Yours? Greatest company of Entertainment in the HISTORY of the United States is a pretty tall claim. Which I think you will have difficulty supporting if you want to argue it as Fact, as opposed to simply your opinion. If I would go out in public and speak to 50 random people, and ask them "who is the Greatest Entertainment Company in the history of the United States", I seriously doubt WWE will be at the top of more than 2 people's lists, if anyone at all.

Is that the state you are referring to?

Yep.

The Attitude Era allowed him to survive temporarily. But where the Attitude Era kept him afloat and brought in much needed capital (albeit a lot of capital), the Attitude Era was targeted at ONE type of fan, and that was the 16-24 male demographic. But, as wrestling has proven to do time and again, it lost those fans between the ages of 21-25. And look what happened. On May 1 2000, we saw a cable rating of 7.4. On May 5, 2003, just three years later, Raw pulled a 3.5 rating. That's a drop of nearly FOUR RATINGS POINTS. That's ridiculous. And why did that happen? Because the WWE targeted only one audience, and they all left in those three years.

I completely agree that the loss of WWE fans during the Post Attitude Era was unacceptable. And it was because, as you said, Vince only targeted one audience, which I agree is a flawed strategy. This was also when Vince eliminated his competition, so the entire wrestling fanbase was stuck watching only WWE programming and only one product.

And the fact also during this time period was that the company's two most popular stars, Steve Austin and The Rock, were retiring .... and that WWE did not have another star groomed to take over at their level, also damaged the company heavily.

Vince eliminated his competition, however he never replaced the product alternatives that his competition offered, which was his single biggest mistake.

That's why you can't listen to just one segment of the audience, which what it seems you are looking for. You have to book for your WHOLE audience, and while some young males may piss and moan about a PG rating, the fact of the matter is that it stabilizes your company, cultivates a new audience, and puts more money in your coffers.

On the contrary, that is NOT what I am looking for.

Again, the question is in the Execution of HOW to appeal to each of those audiences. Vince took the wrong route, as far as I'm concerned, and again I point to ratings, buyrates, and attendance to support my opinions.

That's how you know McMahon doesn't book for one person. Because he offers such a large variety of wrestling, to appeal to his entire audience. Vince DOES listen to his audience.

Vince offers NO VARIETY to his wrestling products, as I have demonstrated above. It is ONE, universal product. Just different stars on different shows. And no, he does not listen to his audience, unless he is absolutely forced to.

 

[gd]

And you hit the nail on the head with the format being exactly the same every single God damn week. You feel like you are literally watching the same show every single, solitary week. All the shows look exactly the same, they follow the same format, same open, same bland commentary, same GM interference, GM then makes a match, then there is controversy in the main event .... it is basically the exact same show every single week, several times a week. Where the Hell is the variety? Furthermore, how can people not get sick and tired of watching the same show every single week?

This is just a ridiculous argument. How can you all of a sudden be saying that now when that has been the format for wrestling shows for years. When you think about it, there really isn't a ton you can do with matches and promos, and I think the WWE does the best they can to mix it up. Obviously, there are enought people watching it to keep WWE as a successful company.

I am asking this question very honestly and looking for honest answers and opinions. How do you not get sick and tired of watching the same show every week?

Once again, it is not the same show every week. I agree that I'm getting kind of tired on the Legacy beatdowns each week on Raw, but the storyline will play out soon enough and there will be something new. Furthermore, there is a multitude of other storylines and new stars that keep me, and a lot of others, watching.

And as far as others calling your bluff in telling you to tune out, glad to see you did. I did before, and I will again. It angers me because I've been a fan of his product for going on 2 decades, and this man has completely taken away almost everything I enjoyed about the product.

Really, has he taken everything away? You can't find anything good about the company? What exactly was it that they had 10 years ago that they don't have now?

The fact of the matter is, it is still wrestling, there are still great matches (HBK/Undertaker), there are still interesting stars and the WWE is putting out 6 hours of shows every week, not counting PPVs. There has to be something you like there

This is what the "Audience of One" Philosophy has done to the product

As I've said before, this doesn't exist

He has no interesting characters left on the roster (he killed Orton's character)

No intersting characters? Are you serious? You don't find even 1 wrestler in the WWE interesting today? What about Jericho, Cena, MVP, Jeff Hardy, Matt Hardy, Christian, hell, even Santino is interesting.

He has removed any and all interesting and complex storylines

Once again this is a ridiculous statement. You do not find any recent storyline intersting? What about HBK/Jericho, Taker/Edge, Swagger/Christian, Legacy/McMahons, Hardy Brothers, JBL/HBK. You didn't like any of those?

He has removed all edginess from the product, and offers no product alternatives.

Obviously, the product is different and caters to a younger audience nowadays, hence the PG rating. But what do you mean by alternatives? Do you want him to promote others companies like TNA, ROH, or MMA, because that doesn't make any sense.

He has failed to replace The Rock and Steve Austin's departures, and failed to create new and interesting characters

He is never going to replace those guys as they were one of a kind characters, and how can he be expected to do so? It sounds like just because a couple of your favorites are gone, that means that the WWE sucks. And you are just repeating yourslef with the "no interesting characters" argument.

He has removed the managers from the show

Tony Atlas, Natalya, Ranjin Singh are just a few that I can name of the top of my head. I agree that there may not be as many managers and they are not as prominent, but does that honestly completely ruin the wrestling experience for you? Personally, I don't think that it is a huge issue.

He has removed almost all emphasis on the Mid Card

As Sly stated earlier, his goal is to make money, and the main event makes money. Also, when was there ever such a huge "emphasis" on the midcard? It isn't like it is that terrible today either. In the last year, both CM Punk and Jeff Hardy were able to get over in the Mid Card and become World Champions, which I believe is the ultimate goal.

It isn't like they are totally ignoring the mid card. Did you watch Raw last week? The VIP Lounge/Tag Match was the best part of the show. Obviously the mid card isn't going to be featured as heavliy in the past because there no longer are brand exclusive PPV's, but I think you are selling Vince a little short on this one.

He has destroyed the Tag Team Division

I agree that the Tag Division has declined, but it once again goes back to the lack of brand exclusive PPVs and making money. Vince obviously knows the the tag division doesn't make money, so he doesn't focus on it as much. Simple economics. He also is more interested in breaking up tag teams once they get over to build singles stars, which is a good strategy.

He has removed Face/Heel Commentary Teams and replaced them with Bland, Boring commentary teams.

Once again, I agree with you that I prefer Face/Heel teams, but I don't think this is a huge issue. Matt Stryker is a great commentator, but he isn't totally heel. JR has been with the company for ever, but has he all of a sudden gone from interesting to bland? I think that while the commentary could use improving, it isn't a huge issue shouldn't be a reason to hate the WWE.