UFC 128 LD is The Pinnacle of Jon Jones Ruining Rashad Evans' Life

[ITurnGirlsGay]

Not talking shit, but you clearly need a better understanding of MMA if you think Jones "didn't have the killer instinct"

 

[jmt225]

How much of a chance would you give Hendo and Mousasi against Jones, ITGG?

 

[Minor League Brian]

You're kidding, right? I'm curious as to your reasoning. Machida isn't the explosive fighter that Jones is.

Doesn't matter. Machida was hyped up as being unstopable the exact same way as Jones is being now. Because of how badly he dismantled Rashad everyone suddenly thought no one could touch him. You couldn't take him down, you couldn't hit him, he'd just handle everyone. It was the "Dragon Era" and look what happened to him then.

You need only look at my AV for my stance on Machida.

Don't much care on one opinion when I'm going off general consensus.

Jones not closing in the first is a sign of maturity. He knew he was winning and showed the patience and maturity of a fighter that's around 28-29. He didn't try to close range when he knew that Shogun was a broken and battered man.

Um, why not? You have a man dead on his feet. You take the opportunity and finish it. I have NEVER seen a fighter not take his shot when he's completely knocked a man senseless. That isn't maturity in the least bit, its immaturity if anything. He should have known Shogun had nothing when he was just lunging forward and swinging for the fences after being rocked. With the way his straights where landing, he should have easily been able to finish it off when Shogun was dead on the cage.

I think you need to realize that Shogun just got dismantled. It wasn't so much that Shogun was dealing with a layoff as much as he faced a fighter that was just so dominant it made him look bad.

Shogun was gased after the first round. That's poor conditioning/showing up at the fight in shit shape. That has nothing to do with Jones dismantling him on his feet.

Shogun didn't try shit, he really didn't. Jones is good, no doubt, but Shogun was absolutely shit tonight.

Not talking shit, but you clearly need a better understanding of MMA if you think Jones "didn't have the killer instinct"

Haha. Okay.

Shogun was dead on his feet in the first and Jones stared at him. That's not maturity. He could have finished Shogun with his straights but didn't, its not as if Shogun ever showed an answer to his range and striking so why did he just let him stand? Hell, it almost got him caught later when Shogun attempted to lock in a triangle.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

Hendo I'd give about a 25% chance. Gegard, I'd give about a 10% chance. Mousasi struggles against powerful wrestlers. Jones is just that. He'd work Mousasi just like Lawal did.

Hendo struggles against lengthy fighters. He could probably hang for a minute, but I'd expect Jones to win. Hendo really only has one weapon.

 

[jmt225]

Shogun was gased after the first round.

I disagree with you here, Brian.

Shogun never gassed in that fight. He looked fine until Jon Jones connected with that kick against the cage in the 1st Round. That kick took EVERYTHING out of Shogun; he never recovered from that and fought off pure heart from that point on.

Credit goes to Jones for not letting Shogun recover from the kick, but that kick is why Shogun looked so out of it. There's no way his conditioning was only good enough to go 1 Round.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

Doesn't matter. Machida was hyped up as being unstopable the exact same way as Jones is being now. Because of how badly he dismantled Rashad everyone suddenly thought no one could touch him. You couldn't take him down, you couldn't hit him, he'd just handle everyone. It was the "Dragon Era" and look what happened to him then.

Machida never dominated his opponents like Jones did. He was elusive, at best. His riddle has been solved. People press action with Jones and sill get nowhere. He's too rangy for them.

Don't much care on one opinion when I'm going off general consensus.

Wasn't general consensus. Many people felt Shogun had the tools to beat Machida.

Um, why not? You have a man dead on his feet. You take the opportunity and finish it. I have NEVER seen a fighter not take his shot when he's completely knocked a man senseless. That isn't maturity in the least bit, its immaturity if anything. He should have known Shogun had nothing when he was just lunging forward and swinging for the fences after being rocked. With the way his straights where landing, he should have easily been able to finish it off when Shogun was dead on the cage.

You clearly don't understand the fight game. When you have a stud, like Rua, rocked, you look for your openings. You don't bullrush. Just because YOU think he should have finished the fight doesn't mean that the smart move was to finish the fight. Jackson is a master planner. GSP had Fitch hurt many time, but he didn't go for overkill. Jones won the title, Rua looked like a joke. I'd take that over a first round finish any day. [/QUOTE]

Shogun was gased after the first round. That's poor conditioning/showing up at the fight in shit shape. That has nothing to do with Jones dismantling him on his feet.

Gassed and rocked are two different things. He wasn't gassed, he was getting murdered. He was getting beat to every punch, nothing was working, and he couldn't close any distance. Quit watching the fight from a nuthugger aspect and watch it for what it was. Jones was just too much for him. Shogun never found his range. His footwork was never fast enough, his clinchwork wasn't good enough. He got overpowered.

Much like Velasquez against Lesnar, he just got worked. He went up against someone quicker, more powerful, lengthier, and a better grappler. [/QUOTE]

Shogun didn't try shit, he really didn't. Jones is good, no doubt, but Shogun was absolutely shit tonight.

You're making excuses. There's no real defensible explanation for your claims other than the, atypical, "he had ring rust," complaint. Shogun got worked, dude, sorry.

Haha. Okay.

Shogun was dead on his feet in the first and Jones stared at him. That's not maturity. He could have finished Shogun with his straights but didn't, its not as if Shogun ever showed an answer to his range and striking so why did he just let him stand? Hell, it almost got him caught later when Shogun attempted to lock in a triangle.

As a practitioner of BJJ I can tell you that Shogun was nowhere near locking in a triangle. He was never near any submission attempt. It was absolutely maturity on Bones' part. He didn't rush anything leaving him open for a finish. You suggesting otherwise makes me question your knowledge of grappling and MMA.

 

[Minor League Brian]

I disagree with you here, Brian.

Shogun never gassed in that fight. He looked fine until Jon Jones connected with that kick against the cage in the 1st Round. That kick took EVERYTHING out of Shogun; he never recovered from that and fought off pure heart from that point on.

Credit goes to Jones for not letting Shogun recover from the kick, but that kick is why Shogun looked so out of it. There's no way his conditioning was only good enough to go 1 Round.

After the first he was flat out sucking air when he was on that bench. Either the ground work got to him (Jones was landing some nasty elbows to the gut) or his conditioning was shitty.

I agree that he fought on pure heart but he was gassed imo.

Machida never dominated his opponents like Jones did. He was elusive, at best. His riddle has been solved. People press action with Jones and sill get nowhere. He's too rangy for them.

But you're completely missing my point and looking in hindsight. At that point, when he beat Rashad, no one thought they'd solve his riddle. Everyone (or most people) have some aspect that "could" get it done but you had to put the pieces of the puzzle together to do it.

Jones is the same way. Someone will solve his riddle eventually, just like they will GSP. Doesn't mean everyone will but eventually everyone loses.

Wasn't general consensus. Many people felt Shogun had the tools to beat Machida.

Again Tools ≠ Action. Plenty of people have the tools to beat anyone but not the necessary ability to put the pieces together to do it.

You clearly don't understand the fight game. When you have a stud, like Rua, rocked, you look for your openings. You don't bullrush. Just because YOU think he should have finished the fight doesn't mean that the smart move was to finish the fight. Jackson is a master planner. GSP had Fitch hurt many time, but he didn't go for overkill. Jones won the title, Rua looked like a joke. I'd take that over a first round finish any day.

lol. I love how you're telling me I "don't understand the fight game".

When you have "stud" like Rua rocked, you don't give him more chances to whip your ass. You take him down when you have the opportunity. I'm not talking rushing in Liddell style, but the fact is he rocked Rua on the cage and from that point on basically backed off. When they were on the ground and Rua was still out of it, Jones just laid on him. That's immaturity.

And you're right, the ends justified the means there but how fucking stupid would Jones have looked had Rua gotten that lucky shot and dropped him or gotten lucky and caught him in a submission? You don't give people more chances when you can finish a fight.

Gassed and rocked are two different things. He wasn't gassed, he was getting murdered. He was getting beat to every punch, nothing was working, and he couldn't close any distance.

He was both. He was sucking air at the end of the first and the round closed with almost no action as they were laying on each other.

Shogun was both rocked and gassed from my perspective. And you're right, Shogun's stand up wasn't doing shit but he literally didn't try and do anything else. It just seemed he'd back himself up against the cage, get destroyed, circle around and rinse and repeat.

Quit watching the fight from a nuthugger aspect and watch it for what it was. Jones was just too much for him. Shogun never found his range. His footwork was never fast enough, his clinchwork wasn't good enough. He got overpowered.

I really don't give a damn about Rua or Jones. I have no issues with Rua and I was annoyed with Jones due to his hype, but he's fighting Rashad so he's instantly a favorite of mine now and he was quiet and respectful at the end of the fight.

Jones was to much. Really, I think he's got good talent but what throws him over the edge is his length. You can't get inside of him because his Jab will just eat you alive and you can't out-box him simply because his range is gonna be almost 10 inches longer then yours half the time. Short of putting him on his back, which is fucking hard because you can't get close enough to shoot without being in range of his straights and elbows, you've not got many choices. To me, what lets Silva be so good at Middleweight is what's gonna help Jones out; his length.

Much like Velasquez against Lesnar, he just got worked. He went up against someone quicker, more powerful, lengthier, and a better grappler.

Lesnar is just scared to get hit for some reason. That's a bad parallel imho.

You're making excuses. There's no real defensible explanation for your claims other than the, atypical, "he had ring rust," complaint. Shogun got worked, dude, sorry.

Er. No, my defense is the fact I saw no semblance of a game plan. Maybe its because he was rocked early on and couldn't execute but I didn't see anything semblance of a plan of attack or any way to really go after Jones. I saw Shogun get gassed/rocked and simply go on instincts and heart with no sense of purpose.

You see that as "owning", I see that as poor preparation by a champion.

As a practitioner of BJJ I can tell you that Shogun was nowhere near locking in a triangle. He was never near any submission attempt. It was absolutely maturity on Bones' part. He didn't rush anything leaving him open for a finish. You suggesting otherwise makes me question your knowledge of grappling and MMA.

I love these ones. "Oh, I do it so you gotta believe me when I say..."

It doesn't matter how close he was or not. He was attempting one, he had the opportunity, and had he gotten it Jones woulda looked like an idiot. Inexperienced idiot, but an idiot none the less.

When you have someone set up to fall, you don't let them hang around. Epically a talented fighter like Rua.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

But you're completely missing my point and looking in hindsight. At that point, when he beat Rashad, no one thought they'd solve his riddle. Everyone (or most people) have some aspect that "could" get it done but you had to put the pieces of the puzzle together to do it.

I'm not looking at it from the hindsight perspective, I'm just simply saying that Rua had all those assets that could

All fighters lose eventually. Jones isn't unbeatable.

Again Tools ≠ Action. Plenty of people have the tools to beat anyone but not the necessary ability to put the pieces together to do it.

Except Jones did

lol. I love how you're telling me I "don't understand the fight game".

When you have "stud" like Rua rocked, you don't give him more chances to whip your ass. You take him down when you have the opportunity. I'm not talking rushing in Liddell style, but the fact is he rocked Rua on the cage and from that point on basically backed off. When they were on the ground and Rua was still out of it, Jones just laid on him. That's immaturity.

This shows your ignorance. You don't go for the kill against someone like Rua. He didn't "lay off" as you so put it. He continued to apply pressure and wore Shogun down before knocking him out. It's a gradual progression. Smart gameplan, actually. Applying aggresive pressure leaves you open for shots, Jones didn't do this.

And you're right, the ends justified the means there but how fucking stupid would Jones have looked had Rua gotten that lucky shot and dropped him or gotten lucky and caught him in a submission? You don't give people more chances when you can finish a fight.

He finished the fight, right? So please tell me where this was a "horrible" gameplan. He did exactly what you said he shouldn't do; get caught.

He was both. He was sucking air at the end of the first and the round closed with almost no action as they were laying on each other.

No, he was rocked. You're making excuses again. Shogun was battered with every kick and punch. He was wobbled more than 4 times in that fight.

Shogun was both rocked and gassed from my perspective. And you're right, Shogun's stand up wasn't doing shit but he literally didn't try and do anything else. It just seemed he'd back himself up against the cage, get destroyed, circle around and rinse and repeat.

Yes he did. Shogun tried things this fight that he's not even known for. He tried to wrestle Jones down. He couldn't do it. When was the last time you saw Shogun grapple and work for takedowns?

I really don't give a damn about Rua or Jones. I have no issues with Rua and I was annoyed with Jones due to his hype, but he's fighting Rashad so he's instantly a favorite of mine now and he was quiet and respectful at the end of the fight.

At least we agree on one thing.

Jones was to much. Really, I think he's got good talent but what throws him over the edge is his length. You can't get inside of him because his Jab will just eat you alive and you can't out-box him simply because his range is gonna be almost 10 inches longer then yours half the time. Short of putting him on his back, which is fucking hard because you can't get close enough to shoot without being in range of his straights and elbows, you've not got many choices. To me, what lets Silva be so good at Middleweight is what's gonna help Jones out; his length.

Two things

Lesnar is just scared to get hit for some reason. That's a bad parallel imho.

You're right about Lesnar not wanting to get hit, but it's not a bad comparison. Shogun was just outmatched. 10-10 times, I'd take Jones against Rua

Er. No, my defense is the fact I saw no semblance of a game plan. Maybe its because he was rocked early on and couldn't execute but I didn't see anything semblance of a plan of attack or any way to really go after Jones. I saw Shogun get gassed/rocked and simply go on instincts and heart with no sense of purpose.

You see that as "owning", I see that as poor preparation by a champion.

I saw that as master Greg Jackson planning.

I love these ones. "Oh, I do it so you gotta believe me when I say..."

It doesn't matter how close he was or not. He was attempting one, he had the opportunity, and had he gotten it Jones woulda looked like an idiot. Inexperienced idiot, but an idiot none the less.

When you have someone set up to fall, you don't let them hang around. Epically a talented fighter like Rua.

My understanding as a BJJ player isn't a "you need to believe me," comment. Throwing up triangles is what most BJJ players do against wrestlers. Same reason Shogun was working his X-Guard and sweeps. Most wrestlers leave themselves open with that over-extended punching pattern in their top-game. The fact that you're unaware of this is why I'm questioning your knowledge of grappling or MMA.

 

[ITurnGirlsGay]

Also, when I say ignorance, I don't mean that you're dumb. You're clearly intelligent. You're just uninformed when it comes to the subtle nuances of the fight game.

 

[Minor League Brian]

Also, when I say ignorance, I don't mean that you're dumb. You're clearly intelligent. You're just uninformed when it comes to the subtle nuances of the fight game.

Keep telling yourself that.

I'll respond tomorrow and make a topic in the MMA section. If I'm actually gonna try and post, I'm damn well gonna get credit for it.

 

[jmt225]

After the first he was flat out sucking air when he was on that bench. Either the ground work got to him (Jones was landing some nasty elbows to the gut) or his conditioning was shitty.

I agree that he fought on pure heart but he was gassed imo.

Don't be surprised if you hear that Shogun broke his ribs in the fight; I really believe it was that kick why Shogun looked so tired so quickly into the fight.

But Brian, man, you have to give Jon Jones his props. Shogun Rua is without question the greatest Light Heavyweight to ever fight in this game, and Jon Jones dominated him. That's all the proof I need to know that the Jones hype is real. I've always known that Jones was going to be something special in this sport, but last night showed he's on another planet than everybody else. The kid has it ALL in his arsenal.

I'm not going overboard and saying that Jones is so good he could go up to Heavyweight and beat everybody there like some people are saying (Alistair Overeem would absolutely smash Jones, no doubt about it), but right now the only guy who looks to have a shot against Jones that can make 205 is Anderson Silva (who I believe you hate way more than Jones, lol).

I'm just saying, man... get used to the hype. Jones has Splenda up next, and unless Rashad pulls out the miracle of all miracles, then it will be yet another dominating performance by Jones and the hype train will keep on rolling into 2012.

 

[Slyfox696]

Am I the only one not ready to crown Jones yet? We where all saying the same shit about Machida when he dismantled Rashad and look where he's at now.

Meh, I don't know if WE all were saying the same about Machida. I certainly wasn't, and when he fought Shogun the first time, I think a lot of people thought Shogun could beat him.

Reality is I didn't see the killer instinct I expect in Jones. He had Shogun rocked NUMEROUS times and refused to go after him.

Like others have said, I think that's a sign of maturity and good fighting sense. How many times have we seen someone throw everything they have because they think they're about to win a fight, and then gas themselves out to the point they get beaten.

I think Jones is gonna be good, I actually kinda like him now, but I am by no means ready to crown him yet.

Well, that's fine, but Dana White already crowned him the UFC Light Heavyweight champion. I'm not sure what crown you're holding, but he already has the biggest crown in his weight class.

Um, why not? You have a man dead on his feet. You take the opportunity and finish it. I have NEVER seen a fighter not take his shot when he's completely knocked a man senseless. That isn't maturity in the least bit, its immaturity if anything. He should have known Shogun had nothing when he was just lunging forward and swinging for the fences after being rocked. With the way his straights where landing, he should have easily been able to finish it off when Shogun was dead on the cage.

Two words:

Shane Carwin

Shogun was gased after the first round. That's poor conditioning/showing up at the fight in shit shape. That has nothing to do with Jones dismantling him on his feet.

You're right, Shogun was tired. But I don't think it's because of poor conditioning, I think it's because he got his ass kicked. Getting your ass handed to you, especially on the bottom of a good wrestler is tiring. Not to mention the whole getting punched/kicked to the ribs thing.

Shogun didn't try shit, he really didn't. Jones is good, no doubt, but Shogun was absolutely shit tonight.

I disagree, Shogun tried several different approaches. He just wasn't fast enough to win the fight standing up, and Jones was too good on top to get caught in a submission.

Shogun tried a lot of things, he was just completely stifled.

Shogun never gassed in that fight. He looked fine until Jon Jones connected with that kick against the cage in the 1st Round. That kick took EVERYTHING out of Shogun; he never recovered from that and fought off pure heart from that point on.

He had no gas in the tank after the first round. He was running on fumes for the rest of the fight.

I suppose we could quibble on whether that's being gassed or having the breath knocked out of you, but either way, Shogun had nothing in the tank.

There's no way his conditioning was only good enough to go 1 Round.

I agree with this. Jones was the reason Shogun was dead on his feet, not a lack of preparation.

 

[Fizzy]

Am I the only one not ready to crown Jones yet? We where all saying the same shit about Machida when he dismantled Rashad and look where he's at now.

Reality is I didn't see the killer instinct I expect in Jones. He had Shogun rocked NUMEROUS times and refused to go after him. The kidney shot was nice, but it's not what did Shogun in. Shogun was just done. Shogun also looked like he was completely lost. Maybe it was ring rust (which I wouldn't doubt) or maybe its just the length advantage. Whatever it was, that's not the Shogun people expected to see.

I think Jones is gonna be good, I actually kinda like him now, but I am by no means ready to crown him yet.

He refused to go after him because he has a brain. He knew this was a five round fight. He knew a fighter the caliber of Shogun could catch him, and finish him if he got careless. Look at the Carwin/Lesnar fight. Carwin used all his energy to finish Lesnar, and completely shot his wad in doing so. It's a 25 minute fight. Conserve your energy.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Am I the only one not ready to crown Jones yet? We where all saying the same shit about Machida when he dismantled Rashad and look where he's at now.

Reality is I didn't see the killer instinct I expect in Jones. He had Shogun rocked NUMEROUS times and refused to go after him. The kidney shot was nice, but it's not what did Shogun in. Shogun was just done. Shogun also looked like he was completely lost. Maybe it was ring rust (which I wouldn't doubt) or maybe its just the length advantage. Whatever it was, that's not the Shogun people expected to see.

I think Jones is gonna be good, I actually kinda like him now, but I am by no means ready to crown him yet.

Yeah dude, finishing the best in the division in the third round truly showed a lack of killer instinct.

I don't think Jones is losing any sleep over the fact that you're not ready to "crown him".

 

[X]

So how was last night's show? I caught the pre-lims on Spike and god damn Edson Barboza vs. Anthony Njokuani was an awesome little fight on free TV. Any of the fights worth watching besides the main event on the PPV card though?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Every fight was worth watching in my opinion. You could probably skip Marquardt/Dan Miller, but even that was a good fight.

I'd rank it:
Shogun/Jones
Miller/Shalorus
Schaub/Cro Cop
Faber/Wineland
Marquardt/Miller

 

[INDYjon22]

But if you're a Mirko fan his fight with Schaub will break your heart. Good fight regardless.