How the hell is Rob Van Dam winning this? The arguments are pitiful:
1. He'll use weapons Err. no he won't he'll get DQ'd if he does
Agreed. However as in other Ultimate Submission matches the ref could take a bump and temporarily get knocked out long enough for a someone to get a chair. Were that the case I'd put my money on RVD to either get the chair himself and use it or counter Savage's use into a Van Daminator.
2. He could come up with something better than a boston crab Like what exactly? The Boston Crab may look like shit, but it's won Jericho world championships ad has been a legitimately devastating submission hold for about 30 years. Jericho beat someone with it at Wrestlemania. I challenge anyone to find an older submission move still in use. I do believe that Jericho actually beat Van Dam with the boston crab in 2005. Despite that, it's not as if Rob Van Dam is some sort of chain wrestling extraodinaire is it?
Here I also agree. RVD doesn't need to use or apply anything better than a Boston Crab. I would assume he'd use any standard submission like a crossface, stf, or even cloverleaf. Knowing RVD he would probably add his own flare to it's execution but you right he wouldn't need anything better, just something equally effective and quick.
3. RVD is trained in martial arts Well, kickboxing is the ony one he holds any sort of distinction in, and the none of the others that he's even attempted: Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Aikido and Kendo, are in any way, shape or form of submission sports. Should I bring up Savage's baseball career? It's about as relevant.
Well here I may have to disagree. First I have to correct a point about Aikido and Karate. As a former practicioner I have to say that there are many techniques that end in joint lock manipulations similar to wrestling submissions that causes either verbal or physical submission of your opponent. Second the majority of the other arts mentioned above including the art you say RVD hold distinction in -Kickboxing- have a variety of moves that are specifically used to KO someone, which as determined by the referee can be counted towards submission.
4. Rob Van Dam is better in a TNA environment Hmm, yeah because Randy Savage definitely never went to the top rope. He definitely wasn't the first main eventer in North America to do that, and he definitely didn't have two finishers that were hit from on top of the turnbuckle. Oh wait, I appear to be mistaken.
True again, yet Savage's generational gap may be a set back as he didn't really contend much with the modern aerial style that later wrestlers would use in an environment such as TNA's six sided ring. Van Dam not only contended in and regularly countered the aforementioned aerial style, but also innovated his own which would in all likelihood catch Savage off guard (At least for this first match if not a few subsequent ones). While both were innovators (see below) I personally believe RVD would adapt to the ring faster as it's closer to his style than Savages.
5. Rob Van Dam is more of an innovator Yup, again, learn your wrestling history. Van Dam invented about 4 moves with a chair and popularised rolling thunder as a move. Savage was the first main eventer to go to the top rope, the first to have the kind of interaction he did with his female manager, the most innovative in his promos in his time, one the most distincitve wrestlers visually of all time, and he put somebody through a table in 1985, which I believe is the earliest anyone has ever done so. Savage is ten times the innovator Rob Van Dam is.
Debatable, by I definitely see your point. However most things you mentioned will not help him in the ring. Also while he was the first Main Eventer to employ the use of the top rope, he didn't invent it either. Moot points aside, RVD's innovations have more to do with his execution of moves, and uniqueness of technique in the ring. He makes standard moves visually more impressive and/or more deadly and directly damaging. So I'll say they were both very innovative, but I think RVD's style of innovation will be more beneficial during an actual match.
So, we've looked at the reasons why RVD won't win, lets look at the reasons why Savage will. Firstly, Savage coud work a crowd as good as anybody, and the Impact Zone is in his hometown too, remember. In a submission match, having the crowd willing you to the ropes is immensly important.
Well I see where you're going but I have to say that RVD is a crowd favorite in his own right and may just turn the home town with his flashier and more innovative in ring techniques. I don't think a modern TNA crowd would care about elbow drops like crowds did back in the 80's, at least not as much as seeing 5* frog splashes, split-legged moonsaults, rolling thunders, cartwheels, Backflips etc etc.
Secondly, Savage fought submission guys like Flair on numerour occaisions and wasn't made to submit. Van Dam was made to submit by submission wrestlers on numerous occaisions.
Neither man is a submissions guy so to say that because RVD lost to a submissions guy he would lose to non-submission guy Randy Savage when he applies a submission doesn't quite add up. In addition Savage's record against submission guys won't come into play as greatly when he's against someone who has different strengths and weaknesses than standard wrestling submission guys. RVD has a background that favors strikes powerful enough to cause long term injury and outright unconsciousness, which can be quite effective in regards to softening up Savage enough to have him submit via even basic submissions. He also has the potential to be versed in submissions that are uncommon in wrestling that Savage will not be trained to counter.
Clearly, neither of them is Benoit or Hart, but Savage is a more resiliant and more innovative competitor, and immensly more succesful during his career, and he surely has to have the upper hand as a result.
Erm the resilient issue is somewhat erroneous; I've already touched upon the innovative competitor aspect, and as for success I think we can all acknowledge that when left to flourish RVD was very successful. RVD was a ECW/WWE champion and a damn successful wrestler by most anyone's definition... but so what. I don't see how the past success levels of Savage in direct comparison to that of RVD's would factor into a current match up in enough of a way as to be meaningful.
I'll probably vote
RVD
