TNA: Sadistic Madness: Ric Flair vs. Bam Bam Bigelow

[Shocky]

When a 400 pound man bust you open in the opening minutes of the bell, in essentially a no holds barred match, that's the reasoning. This isn't a technical match up, this isn't a match where someone might bleed, this is a match where someone will bleed. Bam Bam is far more hardcore then Flair could have ever hoped to have been in his career, and Bam Bam isn't going to stop. See how well any body does with blood loss. I fyou don't know the effects of losing lots of blood, then take a biology class at this point. Bam Bam is far more agile then Flair, and in a six sided ring, the Beast From the East can hit him from all angles, no rules means that the former ECW champion has another advantage.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Everybody keeps saying Flair bleeds so much and so easily, but I don't think that matters.

Am I to assume you have no clue as to the rules of the match?

As many times as you've seen Ric Flair bleed, how many times has he been able to fight through the blood and pull off a victory?

Probably less times than I've seen him bleed and lose.

Ric Flair is one of the greatest wrestlers ever, Bam Bam Bigelow is a very good wrestler, but not Ric Flair.

Agreed. Though this is hardly a wrestling match.

There is no way Bam Bam is going to beat Flair here.

Yes there is. If Bigelow gets more votes than Flair. I'm pretty sure that's one way.

Even though Flair may be busted open fairly early on by Bigelow,

...a clear advantage for Bam Bam...

he's not going down,

Except of course for when he does go down...

Flair also has the fact that this is a no-dq match on his side.

You do realize that "no dq match" means they BOTH cannot be disqualified, right?

He can use anything he can find near the ring as a weapon,

as can Bigelow...

and it shouldn't be hard for the dirtiest player in the game to find something to make his opponent bleed.

Nor should it be hard for a former ECW champion to do the same...

Once Flair finally busts Bigelow open, it's only a matter of minutes until he has him pinned or locked in the figure 4 for a victory.

Or for Bigelow to hit greetings from Asbury Park, NJ and a top rope headbutt.

Everything about this match benefits Bigelow, just like Shocky says.

 

[Father:_Polley]

Flair bleeds more easily than a haemophiliac in the middle of a sea of glass. Ok, he's a tough little guy to finish off, but the bleeding thing won't help him.

Bam Bam by contrast... not much of a bleeder. He's big, fast and agile and I think he'll wear Ric down eventually.

Gotta give this one to the Big Man. Not because he will outwrestle Flair, but purely because he'll proceed to beat the holy high hell out of him in an atmosphere the man from ECW is wholly comfortable in. This isn't about Flair's ability to endure punishment. Ric Flair in his prime was never dominated... that much is true. But Ric Flair in his prime didn't face a No Holds Barred match against a very dangerous SHW who knew how to fight hardcore rules. That stipulation works against Naitch and will be his downfall in this match

 

[Big Sexy]

I don't think anyone would argue that Vader is better then Bam Bam Bigelow. Ric Flair has beaten Vader twice. Flair did not bleed in either of those matches, and the second one was inside of a steel cage. If Flair can beat Vader in that type of environment then I see no reason why he couldn't do the same against Bam Bam.

Flair > Vader. Vader > Bigelow. Therefore Flair > Bigelow. It's simple math.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I don't think anyone would argue that Vader is better then Bam Bam Bigelow. Ric Flair has beaten Vader twice. Flair did not bleed in either of those matches, and the second one was inside of a steel cage. If Flair can beat Vader in that type of environment then I see no reason why he couldn't do the same against Bam Bam.

Flair > Vader. Vader > Bigelow. Therefore Flair > Bigelow. It's simple math.

That logic doesn't hold weight because Bigelow and Vader are two entirely different wrestlers. It's like saying that Santino beat Umaga and Umaga has beaten Shawn Michaels so Santino is better than Shawn Michaels and that's not true. Flair is going to have a tough time making Bigelow bleed which will exhaust him more and Bigelow can capitalize. Flair lost in a similar match in last year's tournament to Vader and the same will happen again.

 

[Big Sexy]

That logic doesn't hold weight because Bigelow and Vader are two entirely different wrestlers. It's like saying that Santino beat Umaga and Umaga has beaten Shawn Michaels so Santino is better than Shawn Michaels and that's not true.

Bigelow and Vader are actually very similar. They're both strong, athletic super heavyweights. And Santino got one lucky win with interference over Umaga, so I would still say Umaga is obviously better. Flair got TWO legitimate wins over Vader so my argument actually makes a lot of sense.

 

[Hip2bsquare]

At first thought I was going with Bigelow to deeat Flair, but after a small think decided that was the wrong choice and that Flair would win here.

If this was a First Blood match then Bam Bam wins easy. Flair starts bleeding as he does his strut around the ring. However making the opponent bleed is only half the battle in this ine. You also have to make you opponent submit or pin them.

So whilst Bam Bam will make bleed but I still dont think he could make Flair submit or for that matter pin the Nature Boy. Flair has had many matches where he has ended up a bloody mess but has still been able to come out on top, and I dont think that this one is any different.

Flair doesnt have to make Bam Bam bleed the way Flair does. No just a small amount of blood will do something a chair shot could very easily bring, no matter how small the blood is. After Bam Bam bleeds I htink Flair can use all his experience and nous to put him away.

Bam Bam's shot in this one is to make Flair bleed big early and a lot. But I think Flair tougghs it out.

 

[justinsayne]

LMFAO at the Flair supporters in this match, Bam Bam would murder Flair in this match no if, ands, or buts about it, Bam Bam would bust Flair open within the first minute and before Flair even draw one drop of blood from Bam Bam, Bam Bam would have Flair on his back for the pin, I can't see how any can justify Flair winning a match in this type of an environment, Bam Bam excels in matches like these there is no limit to what he is allowed to do to Flair in this match

 

[IrishCanadian25]

OKAY, so now lots of people are making it a point to mention the FACT that this is not a first blood match. And to those Flair supporters to cling to this point in such desperation - I GET IT. But let's look at this realistically. Hell, I'll even book the match.

1. Everyone agrees that Flair bleeds first. Flair's head is like a teenage girl on her menstural cycle - has to bleed for 5 days out of the month. So let's say 5 - 10 minutes in, Bigelow gets Flair's head opened up with a chair or a bell or just some stiff punches. This frees up Bam Bam Bigelow to leave the bleeding strategy alone and begin wearing out Flair for the pinfall.

2. Meanwhile, Flair still has to make Bam Bam bleed. So much of Flair's match work was the build up of working over the opponent's knee to make them a candidate for the Figure Four Leg Lock. But if Bam Bam is blood-free, Flair has to drop this strategy and enter a hardcore realm that he rarely saw. Even worse, he has to do so against a former ECW champion who didn't always bleed when he got hit with heavy metal objects. That will take a lot of work from Ric.

3. Flair is exhausted as Bigelow has been using his weight and agility to work over Ric. The amount of energy Flair has to exert each time he kicks out of a pin is significant, because he has to push a 300+ lb man off of his chest. In addition to that, he's losing blood because a former ECW Champion is using weapons on him.

4. 25 minutes into the match, Bam Bam (getting frustrated that Flair will not stay down) hits his top rope headbutt. He hits it spot on - but smears some of Flair's blood on his own head. The referee can't tell the difference, so he thinks Bigelow is bleeding as well. Flair rolls up Bigelow and the ref counts 3, awarding the match to Flair. Flair celebrates - BUT WAIT! Bigelow goes to the ref in protest, wiping off the blood from his head and revealing no cut. The ref realizes the mistake and restarts the match, giving Bigelow a chance to hit the Greetings from Asbury Park. Flair goes down for good, and Bigelow is awarded the match.

 

[Gelgarin]

Well most of my knowledge of Bam Bam comes from his time in Japan, where for the most part he was unsuccessful. Right now I don't think anybody's presented a worth while argument as to why he goes over Flair here. I'm not going to vote for a big guy for being big unless it's relevant, and here it isn't.

Here are a few reasons I am planning to vote Flair.

1) Bigelow historically underperformed against legends and technicians.

Seriously, during his career Bigelow had a number of opportunities to showcase his abilities against talents similar to Rick Flair. The closest thing to Rick Flair that exists in Japan is probably Antonia Inoki (a man Flair went 60 minutes against). Bam Bam had at least three matches with Inoki, and as memory serves, they all ended with him tapping out in under five minuets.

Bigelow's entire career in Japan can best be summarised as tossing around Luchadores and jobbing the technicians. Ric Flair is a technician and would 'always' go over Bam Bam unless the stipulation dictated otherwise.

2) The stipulation doesn't.

Ever watched wrestling? In a 1v1 match with the stipulation that the opponent much bleed before he can be pinned it is inevitable that both men are going to bleed. That being said, I'm going to have the advantage to the guy who dealt with free flowing blood on a monthly basis over the guy who didn't. Flair was easy to open up, but he was bloody hard to put down once you had. In contrast, Bigelow(a man with bad knees incidentally) was perpetually vulnerable to submission holds. Once both men are opened up, Ric Flair holds the obvious advantage.

3) Ric Flair was further up the card everywhere he went.

Be it America or Japan, the illusion never existed that Bam Bam was on anything like Ric Flair's level. The reason I bring this up is simple. If Bam Bam had weighed 150lb pounds less then most of you would have all dismissed him as a career nobody. I'm not voting for a big guy because he was big.

 

[Big Sexy]

LMFAO at the Flair supporters in this match, Bam Bam would murder Flair in this match no if, ands, or buts about it

LMFAO at the Bam Bam supporters who actual think he was good. Bam Bam doesn't even belong in the same ring as Ric Flair.

Let's look at his career shall we. He started out in the WWE and because of his size and look he was given a little push. He ended being the last guy eliminated on his Survivor Series team that included Hulk Hogan. It sounds like he's off to a great start in his career, but in actuality that was probably the most successful he ever was. He was only in the WWE for a year and then he left.

Bam Bam then went to Japan where he was part of a successful team with Vader, but when it came to singles competition he failed miserably.

He then went back to the WWE for a couple years and this run was highlighted by a loss to Bret Hart in the King of the Ring, a loss along with Tatanka to 1-2-3 Kid and Bob Holly, and a loss to Lawrence Taylor at Wrestlemania 11. After losses like that I would definitely be scared if I were Ric Flair.

Bigelow goes to ECW for a few years and he is very successful. However, considering the fact that guys like Sandman and Tommy Dreamer had just as much success in ECW as Bigelow, I'm not impressed.

Bigelow's final stop came in WCW. He started out by feuding with Goldberg, but after Goldberg kicked his ass 3 or 4 times he went to the hardcore division. Considering the hardcore division consisted mainly of all the guys who left ECW to come to WCW, I can safely say his run in WCW was not very good.

That was Bam Bam Bigelow's career. Now I know he was big, agile, and looked scary, but he never really accomplished shit. I really can't find one impressive win in his entire career. Ric Flair on the other hand has shown that he can survive in a hardcore environment by beating Harley Race in a steel cage, Vader (who is basically a bigger better version of Bigelow) in a steel cage, and beating Terry Funk in an I Quit match. He has also shown he can beat guys bigger then him with victories over guys like Vader, Bobo Brazil, and Kevin Nash.

Flair is one of the most successful wrestlers ever and he made a career of winning matches when the odds were stacked against him. Bam Bam Bigelow was nothing but a guy with a lot of talent and a good look who really didn't accomplish shit. Ric Flair wins.

 

[Mr. TM]

One side not I have thought of when determining the winner of this match recently was viewing the tournament as that. A wrestling tournament. that requires a man to go out there night after night winning every single match. Seems like a position that Ric Flair was recently in, where he won months worth of matches until finally, at the main stage, he was beaten. This tournament isn't over, and perhaps neither is Flair.

 

[ZEUS]

After long and hard thought, I voted for Flair. Sure Bam Bam has the edge in hardcore wrestling, but Flair is the most resourceful wrestler ever. I don't think it would be impossible for Naitch tog et Bam Bam to bleed, and that would be the biggest obstacle for him. Bigelow, on the other hand, would need to find some way to pin Flair, and I can't see the Flying Headbutt or Moonsault doing it. The Greetings from Asbury Park might, but I don't think Flair would give him the chance to put it on. As per Bam Bam not bleeding, remember, Flair is not opposed to using brass knuckles, chairs, or whatever else he can get his hands on. Flair wins.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Ok, so suffice to say, Flair will likely start bleeding when he is told of the stipulation, we get that. I dont think its a huge advantage for Bigs though, as a bald head is pretty easy to bust open in its own right.

That being said, Flair has made a carreer of winning absurd matches that he has no buisness escaping, ESPECIALLY in his prime, against big men. Vader, anyone?

I see Flair taking the worst of the beating, but somehow making it out of here with a win. Flair is ten times as accomplished as Bigelow in pretty much every way.

 

[RVDgurl]

It's a shame to see Ric Flair go home- he really needs to win this tournament sometime.- unfortunately it won't be this year. Bam Bam is just too damn violent. Even with the help of the Horsemen, there is no way Bigelow could be slowed odwn in a hardcore match. Flair would bleed like a stuck pig. Bigelow advances to the next round.

 

[NSL]

Bigelow wins this. And, he may not even need to score a pinfall. We all know Flair will bleed early, and bleed buckets. I won't go into that any more. But, for about a half hour after he starts bleeding, Bam Bam will be beating on him, making him lose more blood, while Flair is still trying to bust him open, also wearing himself out, and making him bleed more.

This ends with Flair blacking out from losing about half his blood.

 

[Tastycles]

Flair will bleed first, but he'll win. A big guy like Bigelow is going to take a while to start bleeding, but eventually he will, especially as Flair isn't averse to dirty tactics. I really like Bigelwo, but he has absolutely no history of getting wins against big name players, and when coupled with the fact that Ric Flair is allowed to win by submission here, I think Flaireeks out an unlikely win here.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Flair will bleed first, but he'll win.

If by "win" you mean "lose."

A big guy like Bigelow is going to take a while to start bleeding, but eventually he will,.

I am sorry, what does is size have to do with his threshold for blood? Abdullah the Butcher was a big guy, he bled like he was an extra in a Saw film. Anyway...

especially as Flair isn't averse to dirty tactics.

I've already covered this. There is a MASSIVE difference between dirty tactics (eye pokes, face rakes, low blows) and hardcore tactics (chairs, weapons, fire). Flair is known for dirty tactics only because he used underhanded moves in matches where disqualifications could occur. And he didn't use them often to win a match, just to gain control. An eye poke here while the ref was tangled up. A low blow after a ref bump.

There is no comparison to Flair's monicre as a "dirty wrestler" because of eye pokes in normal matches vs Bam Bam's use of hardcore techniques in an ECW ring.

I really like Bigelwo,.

If you really like him, spell his name properly, Tastcycles.

but he has absolutely no history of getting wins against big name players.

In a normal match I'd buy this argument. But how many "big name players" dared face him in a hardcore environment, the likes of which this match would be filed under?

and when coupled with the fact that Ric Flair is allowed to win by submission here, I think Flaireeks out an unlikely win here.

I respectfully disagree. The gimmick stacks the deck against Naitch.

 

[Big Sexy]

In a normal match I'd buy this argument. But how many "big name players" dared face him in a hardcore environment, the likes of which this match would be filed under?

Bigelow has never faced a big name guy in any type of match. The most impressive wins he has in his career were in ECW against Tazz and Shane Douglass.

Flair has won steel cage matches against Vader and Harley Race. He has also won an I Quit match against Terry Funk. I'll take Vader, Funk, and Race over Bigelow any day. In a normal or hardcore environment.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Bigelow has never faced a big name guy in any type of match. The most impressive wins he has in his career were in ECW against Tazz and Shane Douglass.

Flair has won steel cage matches against Vader and Harley Race. He has also won an I Quit match against Terry Funk. I'll take Vader, Funk, and Race over Bigelow any day. In a normal or hardcore environment.

I'll take Vader over Bigelow in a normal or a hardcore environment.

I'll take Funk over Bigelow in a normal or a hardcore environment.

I'll say Race is equal to Bigelow in a normal and a hardcore environment.

I'll take Flair over Bigelow in a normal environment.

But in a hardcore environment, where Bigelow has been a champion and Flair has not really ventured, I'll take Bigelow.

Yes, Bigelow's wins were over Tazz and Douglas. But that's because no other truly big name would step into a hardcore environment. You've actually made my point for me.

Again, my vote in this case is stipulation based. I am a huge Bigelow fan, but if this match were occuring last round, I'd be backing Flair.

 

[Big Sexy]

I'll take Vader over Bigelow in a normal or a hardcore environment.

I'll take Funk over Bigelow in a normal or a hardcore environment.

I'll say Race is equal to Bigelow in a normal and a hardcore environment

So you'd take Vader and Funk over Bigelow in a hardcore environment, but you wouldn't take Flair, who has defeated both Vader and Funk in a hardcore environment, over Bigelow.

Yes, Bigelow's wins were over Tazz and Douglas. But that's because no other truly big name would step into a hardcore environment. You've actually made my point for me.

No, the reason big names wouldn't face Bigelow in a hardcore environment is because Bigelow wasn't very successful as a wrestler in the major promotions. The majority of his hardcore matches took place in ECW, where the talent roster wasn't that great and in the WCW hardcore division, which was basically all the guys who left ECW to go to WCW.

 

[Gelgarin]

In a normal match I'd buy this argument. But how many "big name players" dared face him in a hardcore environment, the likes of which this match would be filed under?

What a daft statement. If you want the short answer, Bam Bam never faced off against many legends in hardcore environments because he wasn't on their radar.

But since you asked, I can rattle off no end of matches that Involved Bam Bam fighting Japanese legends in an environment where hardcore wrestling was perfectly feasible. There were the times I already eluded to where Bam Bam worked with Inoki. If we include tag encounters there were over twenty separate matches between the two. Know how many Bigelow won? 2, and he didn't get the pin fall in either.

Then we take into account Muta's matched with Kejij Mutoh, a man who I would not hesitate in calling Japan's dirtiest player in the game. Nickname sound familiar? Anyway, when Muta's involved that you know it's going to be a violent match, yet I'm forced again to point out that I don't recall Bigelow coming out of any of their matches victorious.

So there we have a man legendary for his technical prowess, and a man legendary for his ability to cheat to win, both of who brushed Bam Bam off like he was nothing.

Given that Bam Bam probably had more success in Japan than any where else (hell, his greatest accomplishment was probably being allowed into the same ring with Inoki and Muta) I'm struggling to see how he goes over Flair here. As I said before; if he was 150lb lighter and called himself The Sandman then everybody would laugh at the prospect of voting for him.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Smoke and mirrors, Gelgarin. You're bringing up men like Inoki and Mutoh, guys I respect immensely, and yes I realize they've defeated Bigelow in Japan. And in many matches I'd big them OVER Bam Bam.

But here's the fail - nobody's really given me too many examples of Flair in a legitimate hardcore environment. The best anyone has come up with is Big Sexy with the steel cage matches, which is sorta weak (good attempt, though) because EVERYONE has wrestled in a steel cage. It's not even considered hardcore anymore. I wonder if it ever way.

And you're right, ECW wasn't on the radar of top performers. But that's besides the point - Bigelow succeeded in the biggest and strongest hardcore environment by becoming the ECW Champion. Flair is a better wrestler, and would normally have what it takes to overcome Bigelow's size (as he's done with Vader before), but in the hardcore environment of the Sadistic Madness Match, Bigelow is the one with the home court, and here, that is enough to overcome the Nay-cha-Boyyy.

 

[Gelgarin]

Smoke and mirrors? Do you keep that phrase assigned to Ctrl-V or something? It seems to creep out whenever you get proved wrong about something.

Anyway, I don't even have to use Japan to expose you here. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to, but I'll throw some America at you as well. Lets start with Summerslam 06, where Ric faces the Hardcore Legend Mick Foley. No pay attention, because this bits good. Ric gets opened up, smacked with barbed wire, slammed onto thumb tacs, beaten to a pulp by a barbed wire baseball bat, and generally mauled by a man much more accomplished and much more violent than Bigelow. Ric Flair, a long past his prime Ric Flair incidentally, was still able to open Foloy up and ground him.

Now Foley is a man with a superhuman pain threshold, so Flair had to find an alternative way to win. With Bam Bam he wouldn't need that, on account of Bigelow's critical weakness to leg submissions. So I guess that's one point to Gelgarin.

Then there was the match Flair had with Muta. Now you should remember the name Muta because, as I previously mentioned, Bigelow was never able to defeat Muta despite having a whole host of chairs, tables and strange blue crates and his disposal. Ric Flair fought Muta a few times in his career, both in WCW and in Japan; and had a 100% record against him.

Then there was the barbed wire steel cage match against Hulk Hogan. Once again Flair gets opened up, once again he was able to come back, open up his opponent and apply the figure four. Once again it was an opponent who wasn't going to tap, but once again that cannot be said for Bigelow. Another point.

So there's a handful of examples. Although I'm not sure why there necessary. Bigelow could take advantage of weapons in Japan to his heart's content, and it never won him matches. There comes a point when you just have to accept that he wasn't good enough.

 

[gd]

I don't see how Bam Bam is dominating this match. He may have been ECW Champion, but he didn't have much competition there. Flair, on the other hand, has been on top of the biggest stage of the world for decades. He's beaten men like Flair, Sting, and Hogan.

As for him bleeding, I'm sure he'd get opened up early put he would recover. Since Flair has bled so many times, he knows how to deal with it. In fact, he's won many matches where he has been busted open. It doesn't mean that he is automatically going to get pinned.

I see Flair working the whole match to fight off pins from Bam Bam and eventually get the advantage. It may take 7 or 8 shots with a chair, but Bam Bam is hardly superhuman. Eventually, he'll start to bleed and then it's only a matter of time before Flair gets a pin or submission.