The Official Shawn Michaels Thread

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I think when Michaels comes back he should go to Smackdown and feud with CM Punk. The scene on RAW is too crowded with HHH, Cena, Orton, and a returning Batista. HBK can feud with Punk and imagine the wonders it can do for Punk. He hasn't had a feud with an established icon like Michaels. But if he doesn't do that, I don't see much for him.

 

[Coco]

I'm not saying there's not interest, simply that there's no point. It's over and done with.

Most of the top guys on Raw have feuded to death with Michaels and he has no interest a title run. Simply put, there's no point to most of what Michaels does anymore, especially on Raw.

I just don't understand why you're calling him a hack, yet saying he'd do well with Punk.

He's done everything he can do where he is at this point and is coasting on past glory most of the time. He's good when he's motivated, but he needs some new guys to work with.

Judging by the audiences reaction, I'd say you were in a minority.

It's the masses that count in Pro-Wrestling.

DX and its members don't need to be done away with entirely. They sell shirts and crap like that. But they should be used in a way that doesn't damage the future so much. They're the past yet they're booked to run over most of the card. The masses can like what they want today, but the current direction of Raw spells dangerous thing in the years to come. The masses can't be trusted to be right.

 

[hlhbk]

Emerson I am gonna make this short in sweet. If you want a very detailed response my feelings about HBK are further back in this thread.

1. There is always a point to what HBK does on RAW. The man deserves to do what he wants creatively in the WWE just by the fact he went out and put Austin over with a very badly injured back, and the fact that without him the attitude era never would have happened.

2. Shawn putting Punk over might do a lot for Punk but I don't want to see the last years of Shawn's career go down on Smackdown. The man was on the first ever raw with Taker and I want him to remain on Raw until he retires.

3. You say he is coasting on past glory and that unless he is motivated that unless he is motivated he isn't very good? Shawn in the ring today is better than 99% of what the WWE has right now. Do I think theh WWE needs to build new stars? Of course! That being said none of the young guys that actually have talent step up when guys like Shawn are gone except for Orton.

4. DX ties into what I wrote above. When Shawn was younger along with guys like Bret Hart he was tearing up the undercard while Hogan was doing his same old thing in the main event. They made it so when you left an event the lasting memory wasn't of Hogan, but of them. None of the younger guys are doing this now and making management take notice. Until they do then I see no reason to push someone who's not over down our throat.

 

[Lancer]

HBK is and always will be an icon in the business. Enough said.

Despite his backstage problems. Despite the Montreal Screwjob. Despite his personal demons. Despite jobbing to Hogan and Cena. Despite the fact that he hasn't had a world title in years.

In light of all those things, HBK is WWE's All-Star. Not Hogan, or Stone Cold, or Cena, or whoever you like. He has managed to keep himself in tremendous shape and deliver 4-star matches throughout at least 4 different creative areas in the WWE.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Most of the top guys on Raw have feuded to death with Michaels and he has no interest a title run. Simply put, there's no point to most of what Michaels does anymore, especially on Raw.

Which is why he's not going to feud with the top guys? I don't understand your stance, he's returned to do a program with Legacy..

He's done everything he can do where he is at this point and is coasting on past glory most of the time. He's good when he's motivated, but he needs some new guys to work with.

He's in no way coasting on past glory. His feud with Jericho was very good, arguably the feud of the year last year. His promos against, and match with The Undertaker was great.

DX and its members don't need to be done away with entirely. They sell shirts and crap like that. But they should be used in a way that doesn't damage the future so much. They're the past yet they're booked to run over most of the card.

How do you know it's damaging the future?

The masses can like what they want today, but the current direction of Raw spells dangerous thing in the years to come. The masses can't be trusted to be right.

So basically, McMahon can't be trusted. You can though, I'm sure.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

HBK is and always will be an icon in the business. Enough said.

Despite his backstage problems. Despite the Montreal Screwjob. Despite his personal demons. Despite jobbing to Hogan and Cena. Despite the fact that he hasn't had a world title in years.

In light of all those things, HBK is WWE's All-Star. Not Hogan, or Stone Cold, or Cena, or whoever you like. He has managed to keep himself in tremendous shape and deliver 4-star matches throughout at least 4 different creative areas in the WWE.

Yeah, I'm going to stop you right here. When I think of an All-Star on a team, I consider him to be one when he isn't there, his team doesn't do as well. So if there was no Hogan, do you think the WWE would be where it is today? Hell no. Same goes with Stone Cold and possibly Cena. HBK is good but if he retires right now or didn't come back last night, is anything going to drastically change? It's not like HBK is the only one delivering these 4-star matches. The best match he had in my opinion since coming back was his comeback match against HHH. Nothing is going to majorly change when HBK is gone and nothing has really changed since he last wrestled at WM 25 that you can say he was a direct result of so he is not WWE's All-Star.

 

[hlhbk]

Yeah, I'm going to stop you right here. When I think of an All-Star on a team, I consider him to be one when he isn't there, his team doesn't do as well. So if there was no Hogan, do you think the WWE would be where it is today? Hell no. Same goes with Stone Cold and possibly Cena. HBK is good but if he retires right now or didn't come back last night, is anything going to drastically change? It's not like HBK is the only one delivering these 4-star matches. The best match he had in my opinion since coming back was his comeback match against HHH. Nothing is going to majorly change when HBK is gone and nothing has really changed since he last wrestled at WM 25 that you can say he was a direct result of so he is not WWE's All-Star.

Um something has changed. The best in ring performer in the WWE has been gone and raw has been terrible without him.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Um something has changed. The best in ring performer in the WWE has been gone and raw has been terrible without him.

That's crazy. I could have sworn Jericho, Mysterio, Punk, or Hardy were still employed by the WWE. You know those wrestlers who put on great matches every PPV and on TV and not just every once in a while. When is the last time HBK put on a great match on RAW? About a couple of years ago. RAW has not been terrible and it really hasn't changed any since Shawn left. RAW wasn't doing that much better with him anyway.

 

[SSJPhenom]

WOW! I go away for awhile and you all tear up the Michaels thread.

I'm just going to address those few (Emerson and Little Jerry) who say that HBK is useless on Raw.

While agree that HBK could do wonders on SD with CM Punk, he could also do wonders on Raw with Swagger, Miz, MVP, Kofi, need I go on? As good as HBK is, he will have a place on whatever show the WWE wants him on and that's Raw. He has come back to feud with Legacy and even if DX wins at SS, they have already put Legacy over by HHH getting his ass whipped by them and by letting Legacy beat them down last night. IMO, that is the lasting memory of last night's Raw. BTW, if he does go up to the main event picture, I think that it would be much needed right now as we only have three main event people on Raw in Cena, Orton, and HHH. Raw needs more main event talent, more than SD since it is the flag ship and HBK can either directly help this by going into the main event scene or indirectly help this by putting guys like Swagger or MVP over. I think that HBK is perfect where he is at and is more needed where he is at. Explore all the options available before you label the man useless.

 

[obiwansidisi]

Raw needs more main event talent, more than SD since it is the flag ship and HBK can either directly help this by going into the main event scene or indirectly help this by putting guys like Swagger or MVP over. I think that HBK is perfect where he is at and is more needed where he is at. Explore all the options available before you label the man useless.

Ok, I agree with this to a point, which is what I was saying all along. Shawn is a well established vet... the work that he and Trips pulled lastnight was beautiful, I'd just like to see it continue... Will it? Is Shawn really going to help the talent, so that there will be more than just 2 guys in the bullpen? Come on, admit it... Shawn worked that feud with Jericho, he worked it with Batista and even the tiny one he had with Cena. Benjamin just sucks... he's beyond help, but my point is, can Michaels successfully push someone to main event, or is he going to do what he always does, and go for the #1 contender spot himself? I agree, HBK was the man back in the day, but even Flair knew when to hand over the reigns...

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

That's crazy. I could have sworn Jericho, Mysterio, Punk, or Hardy were still employed by the WWE. You know those wrestlers who put on great matches every PPV and on TV.....

Really? Jericho maybe. Punk maybe. Hardy maybe... but Mysterio? Seriously? Mysterio is the single greatest threat to professional wrestling's suspension of disbelief there is. Hugely, hugely over-rated. His moves looke like they have the impact of a whiffle bat. His DDT looks odd, and more of a trapeze act like a maneuver. The 619 looks silly no matter how the opponent sells it. And Dropping the Dime... sheesh. At least Hogan was over 6 feet tall and LOOKED heavy.

What criteria are we using here for great matches?!

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Really? Jericho maybe. Punk maybe. Hardy maybe... but Mysterio? Seriously? Mysterio is the single greatest threat to professional wrestling's suspension of disbelief there is. Hugely, hugely over-rated. His moves looke like they have the impact of a whiffle bat. His DDT looks odd, and more of a trapeze act like a maneuver. The 619 looks silly no matter how the opponent sells it. And Dropping the Dime... sheesh. At least Hogan was over 6 feet tall and LOOKED heavy.

What criteria are we using here for great matches?!

Tsk...Tsk...Tsk

Over the past year, Mysterio has better matches than anybody in the WWE and that includes the almighty Shawn Michaels. He was the man in that Elimination Chamber at No Way Out and had three or four great matches with Jericho as well as Edge. He is one of the best workers in the WWE and he has been a better performer than HBK who has one great match with the Taker in the past year and I don't think it was even that great.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

Tsk...Tsk...Tsk

Over the past year, Mysterio has better matches than anybody in the WWE and that includes the almighty Shawn Michaels. He was the man in that Elimination Chamber at No Way Out and had three or four great matches with Jericho as well as Edge. He is one of the best workers in the WWE and he has been a better performer than HBK who has one great match with the Taker in the past year and I don't think it was even that great.

You didn't answer my question.

What criteria are we using to declare arbitrarily that Mysterio > HBK?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

WOW! I go away for awhile and you all tear up the Michaels thread.

I'm just going to address those few (Emerson and Little Jerry) who say that HBK is useless on Raw.

While agree that HBK could do wonders on SD with CM Punk, he could also do wonders on Raw with Swagger, Miz, MVP, Kofi, need I go on? As good as HBK is, he will have a place on whatever show the WWE wants him on and that's Raw. He has come back to feud with Legacy and even if DX wins at SS, they have already put Legacy over by HHH getting his ass whipped by them and by letting Legacy beat them down last night. IMO, that is the lasting memory of last night's Raw. BTW, if he does go up to the main event picture, I think that it would be much needed right now as we only have three main event people on Raw in Cena, Orton, and HHH. Raw needs more main event talent, more than SD since it is the flag ship and HBK can either directly help this by going into the main event scene or indirectly help this by putting guys like Swagger or MVP over. I think that HBK is perfect where he is at and is more needed where he is at. Explore all the options available before you label the man useless.

Smackdown needs HBK a hell of a lot more than RAW does. RAW already has Cena, Orton, HHH, and a returning Batista. Plus they have Kofi, Miz, Swagger, MVP, Bourne, and Henry if they need it. If Hardy does leave, then they have CM Punk, a returning Taker, and a not quite ready John Morrison. Mysterio will be in the main event if needed and it could mean a Jericho/Show split in the near future. HBK would be better served on Smackdown for the time being. It didn't hurt HHH so HBK would be just fine.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You didn't answer my question.

What criteria are we using to declare arbitrarily that Mysterio > HBK?

Oh dear. Let's go through this because this is subjective.

When I compare the Michaels/Jericho feud to the Mysterio/Jericho one, I thought Mysterio's matches with Jericho were better than HBK's. I looked at what Michaels has done and what Mysterio has done in the past year and Mysterio overtakes Shawn. How many great matches has HBK wrestled in the past year? The answer is less than Mysterio.

There's some criteria. Remember it is subjective.

 

[Coco]

Wait... People think Michaels would put guys below him on the pecking order over (and not get the win back) on a show where he doesn't have to? Not fucking likely. He'll get the last laugh over Legacy and if he works with anyone underneath the usual main eventers (Swagger, MVP) he'll get the last laugh like usual. If he moved to SmackDown, he would actually have to help out people underneath him. Scary thought, but Shawn could actually help somebody out!

Raw has sucked lately because of the draft and the current direction (It's a fucking retirement tour or the definition of "status quo" most weeks). Michaels being offf has nothing to do with it.

On the topic of DX... Does anyone else find it ironic and sad that the badass rebel group is now so deeply routed in the establishment these days? These guys get together, have the definition of an uninspiring, money-sucking retirement tour and hold the younglings down on a regular basis. No longer badass rebelious up and comers, they have become the problem.

 

[Evan Snow-Wolf]

Oh dear. Let's go through this because this is subjective.

When I compare the Michaels/Jericho feud to the Mysterio/Jericho one, I thought Mysterio's matches with Jericho were better than HBK's. I looked at what Michaels has done and what Mysterio has done in the past year and Mysterio overtakes Shawn. How many great matches has HBK wrestled in the past year? The answer is less than Mysterio.

There's some criteria. Remember it is subjective.

Okay. You're claim is comparison of a specific character feud. Alright. His was "better". Better HOW?

And how can you compare number of good matches in a year when Shawn's been gone 6 months?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Okay. You're claim is comparison of a specific character feud. Alright. His was "better". Better HOW?

And how can you compare number of good matches in a year when Shawn's been gone 6 months?

Alright then...just to appease you since HBK has to take six months off like after every match, let's start the comparison since the start of 2008. Mysterio has still been better than Michaels. Mysterio's matches with Jericho were better worked and got the crowd more involved than Michaels. The Y2J/HBK was basically all hype and the matches didn't live to the buildup. The Jericho/Mysterio feud did and then some. Just watch the matches and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Alright then...just to appease you since HBK has to take six months off like after every match, let's start the comparison since the start of 2008. Mysterio has still been better than Michaels. Mysterio's matches with Jericho were better worked and got the crowd more involved than Michaels. The Y2J/HBK was basically all hype and the matches didn't live to the buildup. The Jericho/Mysterio feud did and then some. Just watch the matches and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Where do you get that HBK has to take time off after every match? This recent break of his was his first break since his return on Raw in 2007 when he feuded with Orton. So he went about a year and a half of no breaks. I happen to think that the Jericho/HBK matches are highly underrated and are better than you think, although, I have to say that the Mysterio/Jericho matches were better. But if you say that HBK is overrated then you have to say the same about Mysterio because he is highly overrated. Watch his matches, his high impact moves do not produce impact at all and his oppenents have to sell this shit out of his moves just to make him look good.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Where do you get that HBK has to take time off after every match? This recent break of his was his first break since his return on Raw in 2007 when he feuded with Orton. So he went about a year and a half of no breaks. I happen to think that the Jericho/HBK matches are highly underrated and are better than you think, although, I have to say that the Mysterio/Jericho matches were better. But if you say that HBK is overrated then you have to say the same about Mysterio because he is highly overrated. Watch his matches, his high impact moves do not produce impact at all and his oppenents have to sell this shit out of his moves just to make him look good.

Why do I have to say Mysterio is overrated when he clearly isn't? He can't help how small he is so his opponents have to sell the moves. Doesn't HBK sell other people's moves as well because HBK is the king of overselling with Orton right behind him. Mysterio has put on better matches on a more consistent basis than Michaels and has been more entertaining. I don't find a HBK match entertaining because it's HBK. I usually find it entertaining because of who he is facing. When I watch a Mysterio match, I'm entertained by him because even though he isn't what he once was, he is still one of the best workers in the WWE and can perform a great match more often than HBK.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Why do I have to say Mysterio is overrated when he clearly isn't? He can't help how small he is so his opponents have to sell the moves. Doesn't HBK sell other people's moves as well because HBK is the king of overselling with Orton right behind him. Mysterio has put on better matches on a more consistent basis than Michaels and has been more entertaining. I don't find a HBK match entertaining because it's HBK. I usually find it entertaining because of who he is facing. When I watch a Mysterio match, I'm entertained by him because even though he isn't what he once was, he is still one of the best workers in the WWE and can perform a great match more often than HBK.

I agree that Mysterio is a great worker, but to say that he is a better worker than HBK is just bullshit. It is also subjective. If you don't enjoy watching a HBK match because of HBK then there isn't anything that anyone can say to get you to think otherwise. Here we go, I don't like watching a Cena match because of Cena. There, now go ahead and eat me alive. I still think that Mysterio is highly overrated and I do mostly because of his mediocre title run as World Heavyweight Champion. I was sad that Eddie passed too, but that wasn't the right thing to do. Ever since then, I have veiwed Mysterio as overrated. He seems to get this great reaction from people, but I think that it is sympathy more than any thing. If he could do a fraction of what he used to do in WCW and ECW, then we would have a different story.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I agree that Mysterio is a great worker, but to say that he is a better worker than HBK is just bullshit.

Why is that?

It is also subjective.

Oh, of course! HBK is better for no reason at all. Glad we got that taken care of.

If you don't enjoy watching a HBK match because of HBK then there isn't anything that anyone can say to get you to think otherwise.

You almost have a descent point there. People may not like HBK, but you can still point out tangible reasons why or why not. You can't necessarily change their mind, but minds can change and you can still appreciate what they do even if you don't like them.

Here we go, I don't like watching a Cena match because of Cena. There, now go ahead and eat me alive.

Let me guess. The "fiev movez of death?" The fact that he is the face of the WWE? You're right. The guy sucks.

I still think that Mysterio is highly overrated and I do mostly because of his mediocre title run as World Heavyweight Champion.

Yep, base a guy's career off of one title reign and ignore the rest of his career. Excellent reasoning.

I was sad that Eddie passed too, but that wasn't the right thing to do.

He didn't just get the title because of Eddie dying. I'm not gonna try and say it had nothing to do with it, but maybe, just maybe, part of the reason he won is because he is one of the top 3 most over guys on the roster.

Ever since then, I have veiwed Mysterio as overrated.

I'm telling you, that logic is still flawless.

He seems to get this great reaction from people, but I think that it is sympathy more than any thing.

Yep, he's doing so bad that he needs sympathy. Do you read what you are typing? Why the fuck would his pop be out of sympathy?

If he could do a fraction of what he used to do in WCW and ECW, then we would have a different story.

I miss that Rey too, but you go have a bunch of knee surgeries, and let's see how fast you move. Is Rey better than HBK? I really don't know, but this post was so ignorant, I felt the need to reply anyway.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I agree that Mysterio is a great worker, but to say that he is a better worker than HBK is just bullshit. It is also subjective. If you don't enjoy watching a HBK match because of HBK then there isn't anything that anyone can say to get you to think otherwise. Here we go, I don't like watching a Cena match because of Cena. There, now go ahead and eat me alive. I still think that Mysterio is highly overrated and I do mostly because of his mediocre title run as World Heavyweight Champion. I was sad that Eddie passed too, but that wasn't the right thing to do. Ever since then, I have veiwed Mysterio as overrated. He seems to get this great reaction from people, but I think that it is sympathy more than any thing. If he could do a fraction of what he used to do in WCW and ECW, then we would have a different story.

Why would I eat you alive? You're much better when you're dead.

How is Mysterio being a better worker than HBK bullshit? I gave you reasons yet you don't give me reasons back. I think the pot is finding the kettle. Maybe Eddie passing wasn't the only reason Rey won the title and I bet you didn't think about that. How about that glorious one-month reign Michaels had as champion. Went and came just like that before he lost it to HHH but we never talk about that now do we. So Rey Mysterio, one of the most over and best workers in the WWE gets all of his cheers because of sympathy. HBK needs the sympathy cheers more than Mysterio the way he has to drag his old body out there every now and then.

Mysterio can't do a fraction of what he did back then because of his knee injuries, but he is still a consistent and more productive worker than HBK.

 

[hlhbk]

Why would I eat you alive? You're much better when you're dead.

How is Mysterio being a better worker than HBK bullshit? I gave you reasons yet you don't give me reasons back. I think the pot is finding the kettle. Maybe Eddie passing wasn't the only reason Rey won the title and I bet you didn't think about that. How about that glorious one-month reign Michaels had as champion. Went and came just like that before he lost it to HHH but we never talk about that now do we. So Rey Mysterio, one of the most over and best workers in the WWE gets all of his cheers because of sympathy. HBK needs the sympathy cheers more than Mysterio the way he has to drag his old body out there every now and then.

Mysterio can't do a fraction of what he did back then because of his knee injuries, but he is still a consistent and more productive worker than HBK.

Um Rey never was and never will be a better worker or overall performer than HBK. That is a fact. Hey has only done a fraction in this bussiness that Shawn has and Rey had the Mysterio name to help him get over internationally.

Also I don't want to hear it when you try to blame his injuries as to why he isn't able to wrestle anymore. Shawn may not put on 5 star matches every night anymore, but when he is motivated he is good in the ring and on the mic as he ever was. If Rey can't do that then don't blame his injuries. Shawn had a badly injured back and knees, and he is still going.

I respected Rey when he was believeable. I lost all respect for him and the WWE writers when he was word heavy weight champion. Please....I understand he has talent, and especially when he was in ECW and WCW he was amazing.

That being said if I am Vince I look at him putting heavy weights over and beating some of my top guys who are 2 times bigger than he is I put the brakes on the whole thing. That entire championship run is just not believeable, and yes I do know wrestling is fake. That being said you need to have a realm of believeability in it. In real life Rey wouldn't stand a chance against these guys.

But just to clear it up Shawn motivated is far better than Rey any day of the week in the year 2009.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Um Rey never was and never will be a better worker or overall performer than HBK. That is a fact. Hey has only done a fraction in this bussiness that Shawn has and Rey had the Mysterio name to help him get over internationally.

Also I don't want to hear it when you try to blame his injuries as to why he isn't able to wrestle anymore. Shawn may not put on 5 star matches every night anymore, but when he is motivated he is good in the ring and on the mic as he ever was. If Rey can't do that then don't blame his injuries. Shawn had a badly injured back and knees, and he is still going.

I respected Rey when he was believeable. I lost all respect for him and the WWE writers when he was word heavy weight champion. Please....I understand he has talent, and especially when he was in ECW and WCW he was amazing.

That being said if I am Vince I look at him putting heavy weights over and beating some of my top guys who are 2 times bigger than he is I put the brakes on the whole thing. That entire championship run is just not believeable, and yes I do know wrestling is fake. That being said you need to have a realm of believeability in it. In real life Rey wouldn't stand a chance against these guys.

But just to clear it up Shawn motivated is far better than Rey any day of the week in the year 2009.

I love how we started out as merely expressing our opinions and now we are traveling into Factland. What exactly has Shawn done for the business because I haven't heard any reasons from all the HBK-bots (Props to L.S.)? He was the first of a lot of stuff but so was everybody else. Did he change anything about the WWE that has been significant to this day? There's been plenty of superstars who have put on better matches so HBK is just another face in the WWE. I don't think that HBK has contributed anything lasting to the WWE.

I lost respect for you (if I had any to begin with) when you lost respect for Rey because of his world title reign. It's not like Rey walked up to Vince and said that he wanted to be world heavyweight championship. Shawn isn't that much different in stature than Mysterio but we never used his size as a hinderance now do we? How do you know HBK will have a real chance to stand up to those guys in real life. You don't.

I love it when you said about HBK being better than Rey in 2009 when he is motivated? I guess Shawn was motivated when he was flipping those burgers and Rey was out wrestling matches I believe. I bet Shawn was motivated while sitting on the couch while Mysterio was having the best matches of the year with Chris Jericho.