The Official Shawn Michaels Thread | Page 9 | WrestleZone Forums

The Official Shawn Michaels Thread

... he is still one of the best workers in the WWE and can perform a great match more often than HBK.

This is all I keep hearing over and over again, and still you refuse to answer the simple basic question of what it is that makes Rey better. What is "better"? I want to know. SAYING something is better a hundred times doesn't MAKE it better. Give reasons for this claim. And saying he's better because Shawn was off TV for 6 months doesn't count.
 
This is all I keep hearing over and over again, and still you refuse to answer the simple basic question of what it is that makes Rey better. What is "better"? I want to know. SAYING something is better a hundred times doesn't MAKE it better. Give reasons for this claim. And saying he's better because Shawn was off TV for 6 months doesn't count.

I thought I answered this somewhere before. I'm not going to dredge through old posts to retreive them because I don't want to give you that satisfication.

Let's see Mysterio can get the crowd entertained in his matches more often than HBK. He has been a better worker than HBK over the past couple of years and his matches prove it. If you keep asking and asking about one thing, you could be sorely disappointed when you receive the answer. What's "better" to me may not be to you and vice versa. He's more over than HBK and that's basically about it.

Subjectivity rules.
 
I thought I answered this somewhere before.

No. No actually you didn't.

I'm not going to dredge through old posts to retreive them because I don't want to give you that satisfication.

You can't dredge what does not exist.


Let's see Mysterio can get the crowd entertained in his matches more often than HBK.

And how are you measuring crowd entertainment? Merchandise sales? DVD sales? Who gets the loudest pops?

Fail, fail, and fail again.

He has been a better worker than HBK over the past couple of years and his matches prove it.

How do his matches prove it? What is different between the two?

If you keep asking and asking about one thing, you could be sorely disappointed when you receive the answer.

I'll let you know when I get one.

What's "better" to me may not be to you and vice versa.

Maybe, again I'll let you know when I hear some specifics other than sweeping generalizations.


He's more over than HBK and that's basically about it.

:wtf:

Subjectivity rules.

Sounds like a cop-out to me.
 
No. No actually you didn't.



You can't dredge what does not exist.




And how are you measuring crowd entertainment? Merchandise sales? DVD sales? Who gets the loudest pops?

Fail, fail, and fail again.



How do his matches prove it? What is different between the two?



I'll let you know when I get one.



Maybe, again I'll let you know when I hear some specifics other than sweeping generalizations.




:wtf:



Sounds like a cop-out to me.

Since you did mention loud pops and merchandise sales then Rey does beat Shawn in that category.

It is now you turn to tell me why HBK is better than Rey Mysterio since you seem to hold that opinion. You push and push and push and now it is my turn. I don't want to see any sweeping generalizations either.
 
Since you did mention loud pops and merchandise sales then Rey does beat Shawn in that category.

It is now you turn to tell me why HBK is better than Rey Mysterio since you seem to hold that opinion. You push and push and push and now it is my turn. I don't want to see any sweeping generalizations either.

Granted.

Just as soon as you show me the reference data that proves Rey has sold more merchandise, because I am willing to bet Shawn sold more in DX material alone, not even counting his solo merch.
 
I never said that I lost respect for Mysterio but he did lose believablility when he won the Championship. It made me feel like any poor shmo out there that had a death in the family could win the Heavywieght title. I'm not saying that its the only reason Mysterio won it, but it had alot to do with it.

Saying that Mysterio gets louder pops and crowd reactions can't be proven, so mention it as fact. Bottom line is, HBK has more MOTY wins and candidates than Mysterio and will likely win it again. HBK proves he is the best when he is motivated and even when he isn't motivated, I venture to say that he is better than 75% of the roster.

Like I said, Mysterio and his moves are completely unbelievable and I hate haveing to wactch how hard guys have to sell when they go against him.
 
And I hate watching Shawn do his crappy little flying forearm and lthen lay there like a starfish for no reason for a ten seconds. ;)

How can you say HBK has MOTY "wins" when you said this was all subjective? Isn't that double-talk on your part? I mean, hey, it can't be proven. If I was judging, I'd venture to say HBK has about three MOTYs in his WWE career (1996, 2003, 2008) while Mysterio has three (2002, 2005, 2006). Don't say "bottom line" on something as subjective as this when you're the one talking to LJL about what is and isn't subjective.

As for HBK being able to be the best, motivated or not... Mysterio's had MOTYCs with JBL. Michaels failed hard to do anything with JBL. Advantage: Mysterio.

LJL, don't dump on the Jericho-Michaels matches. While Raw ratings sunk hard when that was the top feud, it was fun on a bun and most of the PPV matches lived up to the hype for me. The only thing that fell short for me was their Last Man Standing match. Easily my favorite matches of last year, all very different, all advancing the feud in some way. I'd have liked them to have left the ladder match until Cyber Sunday or something so Punk could have Jericho at No Mercy, but it was still my favorite match of last year and a highly underrated ladder match.
 
And I hate watching Shawn do his crappy little flying forearm and lthen lay there like a starfish for no reason for a ten seconds. ;)

How can you say HBK has MOTY "wins" when you said this was all subjective? Isn't that double-talk on your part? I mean, hey, it can't be proven. If I was judging, I'd venture to say HBK has about three MOTYs in his WWE career (1996, 2003, 2008) while Mysterio has three (2002, 2005, 2006). Don't say "bottom line" on something as subjective as this when you're the one talking to LJL about what is and isn't subjective.

As for HBK being able to be the best, motivated or not... Mysterio's had MOTYCs with JBL. Michaels failed hard to do anything with JBL. Advantage: Mysterio.

LJL, don't dump on the Jericho-Michaels matches. While Raw ratings sunk hard when that was the top feud, it was fun on a bun and most of the PPV matches lived up to the hype for me. The only thing that fell short for me was their Last Man Standing match. Easily my favorite matches of last year, all very different, all advancing the feud in some way. I'd have liked them to have left the ladder match until Cyber Sunday or something so Punk could have Jericho at No Mercy, but it was still my favorite match of last year and a highly underrated ladder match.

I wasn't exactly dumping on the Michaels/Jericho matches. I just felt like they weren't as good as the ones with Mysterio. Their ladder match was ok but the whole feud felt unfinished with some reason with two matches being stopped by the referee.

I agree with you about HBK arguably having three MOTY candidates and the only one I'm on the fence about is his match with Ric Flair. I would choose Batista/Cena over that one but I guess the nostalgia factor is mainly the reason it was chosen.
 
I agree with you about HBK arguably having three MOTY candidates and the only one I'm on the fence about is his match with Ric Flair. I would choose Batista/Cena over that one but I guess the nostalgia factor is mainly the reason it was chosen.
LOL. I wasn't talking about the Flair match. His match with Jericho at No Mercy was my favorite match of the last year. I just really love that ladder match. That match not falling flat after another awesome match right before it (HHH-Hardy) is a great indication of how awesome it was. I loved the finish a lot as well. Very unique.

I love Cena and enjoyed the Cena-Batista match, but that wasn't even my favorite Cena match from last year. It'd have to be one of the PPV matches with Jericho. Survivor Series was a great comeback and the rematch was fun on a bun from bell to bell.

On the topic of Michaels: Did somebody in this thread trying to pass it off as though HBK worked non-stop since his break in 2007 all the way up to WM25? Am I the only one who remembers how little HBK actually wrestled after Mania last year? He wasn't exactly wrestling the same number of matches as a Cena or a Punk or a Jericho.
 
On the topic of Michaels: Did somebody in this thread trying to pass it off as though HBK worked non-stop since his break in 2007 all the way up to WM25? Am I the only one who remembers how little HBK actually wrestled after Mania last year? He wasn't exactly wrestling the same number of matches as a Cena or a Punk or a Jericho.

I know. All the praise that gets heaped upon the guy and all he amounts to is basically a pitcher. There every fifth day or in his case every PPV. I honestly can not name five times he has wrestled on RAW since the start of 2008. I know he's wrestled Jeff Hardy, Vladmir Kozlov, and Lance Cade. Can't think of anybody else. The last time he wrestled on RAW after WM a lot was after WM 23 and he was put out in May by Randy Orton. I bet 90% of the superstars have wrestled more times in two weeks than HBK has the whole year.
 
Why do you guys hate on HBK so much? I don't get it. You all are positive that he isn't as good as some believe, why is that? Please tell me why.

It was me that said that his recent break was his first since his return in 2007 and it was. He might not have wrestled every week, but he was on television every week, and the fact that he was is a testimate to him, considering that it was proven that after WM 24 he had broken ribs. HBK is one of the best we have ever had the priveledge of watching, whether you want to believe it or not. As far as I am concerned, I would rather watch a HBK match than 99% of all other matches, whether they are good or not. I am going to mark out at SS just because I get to watch him again, and I am going to mark out at the Raw after SS because I am going to be there and for me, there isn't anything like watching HBK or 'Taker live.

Yes, your opinions on his matches are subjective, because you can't prove a damn thing about them. You may not have liked his matches with Jericho, but I enjoyed them and think that they are highly underrated. You may not have liked his match with Flair, but IMO, it was far better than watching two men that can't wrestle main event SS. Bottom line is, this is an opinionated thread were either you are going to like what HBK does or you aren't going to like it and nobody is going to yield in what they think, so yes, it is subjective.
 
Well HBK has done it again! He has come into a big PPV and has had the best match on the card IMO. This was a great tag team match and whether you want to admit it or not, it did put Legacy over. Man HBK, why must you be so good?
 
Yeah, I know it's been said and done before, and i'll probably get owned on this topic, but i'm grasping at straws here. The dramatic HBK heel turn.. RAW needs a shake-up. A decent one at least. Why not turn HBK heel? Why not break-up DX? Yeah, they draw, yeah they sell merchandise. So what? Here's my idea.. crappy but here it goes: Say.. HBK catches a real bad beatdown from Legacy, from Orton, whoever. He gets injured, you know.. like injured one week, come back the next feeling better type deals? Then he starts showing animosity towards HHH, blaming him for the injury, saying things like "you were supposed to have my back man, you're my partner!" He blames Triple H, and eventually turns on him, beats the hell out of HHH, and then goes on about how he didn't want to come out of retirement, and just play off the whole thing. Saying he was happy being a cook, and the only reason he got yelled at by his boss is because HHH was there with him. Something along those lines. I know there's a large amount of HBK fans on this forum who are gonna tear this apart, but can it really hurt?
 
I don't really have a preference regarding him as a face or a heel for the moment. Shawn has always been an amazing heel, but that's not saying much because I love face Shawn as well. Him turning on Hunter is the only thing that hasn't been done in terms of DX, so I could see it happening in a program leading up to next years Wrestlemania, which is thought to be Shawn's retirement match.
 
I don't really have a preference regarding him as a face or a heel for the moment. Shawn has always been an amazing heel, but that's not saying much because I love face Shawn as well. Him turning on Hunter is the only thing that hasn't been done in terms of DX, so I could see it happening in a program leading up to next years Wrestlemania, which is thought to be Shawn's retirement match.

I'd much rather have a HBK heel turn then a HHH one. It'd be entertaining, and shocking.. to say the least. Plus, HBK vs HHH was always a good match, and i'd love to see it again.
 
I'd just like to say that HBK has what every young wrestler should strive for. His finishing moves have always been believable. I see the elbow drop and I'm forever reminded of Randy "Macho Man" Savage, and what can be said that hasn't already about the super kick. When I say believable, I refer to moves that if truly landed with full force, they would knock someone out. There are few who can compete with his true athleticism and iron man qualities. He is a wrestler that makes whomever is in the ring with him better.
 
Shawn Michaels > Jesus

Am I the only one who thinks he DESERVES another title run? Would that not be a change of pace? I'm sick of seeing HHH win the belt 98769806 times when Shawn is THE reason he got the chance to be anything. Who named him HHH and launched his career? Hmm...

He's only held the belt 4 times, I think he deserves 1 more run.
 
Shawn Michaels > Jesus

Am I the only one who thinks he DESERVES another title run? Would that not be a change of pace? I'm sick of seeing HHH win the belt 98769806 times when Shawn is THE reason he got the chance to be anything. Who named him HHH and launched his career? Hmm...

He's only held the belt 4 times, I think he deserves 1 more run.

Correction #1: Jesus > Shawn Michaels

Correction #2: Why does he deserve a title run? He doesn't want the title anymore. He hasn't done anything recently that makes me think he should vault to the number one contenders spot.

Correction #3: Prove that HBK named Paul Levesque HHH. I'm sure that HHH's great wrestling skill and knowlege and passion had something to do with his career.
 
Well, back before the original DX HHH was known as Hunter Hearst Helmsley. Shawn Michaels called him triple h as a nickname on Raw, and it stuck. HHH was buried by McMahon because of the incident when he and Michaels broke kayfabe with Hall and Nash after "Deisel's" last match in WWE. Michaels pushed for he and Hunter to be teamed together thus getting him out of the "dog house" and propelling him into the spotlight.

And last time I checked there was no legit ranking system for the number 1, 2 and so on contenders in pro wrestling. I was simply saying that I would like to see the belt on him once more before he hangs up the trunks.
 
Tsk, tsk tsk.........LJL is still hating on HBK.

I've got something we could argue about. How about HBK came into this Legacy feud and, with the assistance of Legacy and HHH, put on a hell of a tag match at SS. Also, who was it that said that DX holds younger talent back and buries them? Well I didn't see this at SS. If you can't say Legacy was put over in that match, then you don't know what being put over is.
 
Tsk, tsk tsk.........LJL is still hating on HBK.

I've got something we could argue about. How about HBK came into this Legacy feud and, with the assistance of Legacy and HHH, put on a hell of a tag match at SS. Also, who was it that said that DX holds younger talent back and buries them? Well I didn't see this at SS. If you can't say Legacy was put over in that match, then you don't know what being put over is.

I never said HHH or HBK holds younger talent back or buries them so that must be some faulty information you've been receiving. They did do a better job of putting Legacy over than they did Miz and Morrison. I wanted Legacy to win last night but I guess since it was McMahon's birthday things went differently. I hope Legacy faces DX again so they can win this time.
 
I never said HHH or HBK holds younger talent back or buries them so that must be some faulty information you've been receiving. They did do a better job of putting Legacy over than they did Miz and Morrison. I wanted Legacy to win last night but I guess since it was McMahon's birthday things went differently. I hope Legacy faces DX again so they can win this time.

I wasn't exactly claiming that it was you that said DX holds back younger talent and buries them. I was generally asking who was it that said that. I know it was someone in this thread, but oh well. Yea, if this feud is going to continue, I have to say that DX should lose one to Legacy, else their work at SS will amount to nothing, however, you know that DX is going to get the overall feud victory, right?
 
Tsk, tsk tsk.........LJL is still hating on HBK.

I've got something we could argue about. How about HBK came into this Legacy feud and, with the assistance of Legacy and HHH, put on a hell of a tag match at SS. Also, who was it that said that DX holds younger talent back and buries them? Well I didn't see this at SS. If you can't say Legacy was put over in that match, then you don't know what being put over is.

I loved the match with Legacy and DX at Summerslam. They really did put over Legacy. I was sure Legacy was gonna take home the win for a bit because DX did such a good job of making a team who was made to look like Orton's bitches in recent months look like legitimate threats.
 
I took this off of my MySpace page, it was a blog I wrote recently about my top 5 HBK matches... A lot of it is in lamens terms, being that most of my friends don't know a lot about wrestling. I'd love to hear about some of your favorites.

So lately, I've been watching a lot of old-school wrestling via YouTube. And if you know me at all, you know how I love my pro wrestling. And, I got to thinking what my top 5 or 10 favorite matches would be.. And I found most of them featured "The Heartbreak Kid" Shawn Michaels, who throughout this blog I will be referring to as HBK.

A little background on the Icon, The Legend, Mr. Wrestlemania, The Heartbreak Kid, Shawn Michaels. He's done it all in wrestling. He's held the tag team, Intercontinental, European, and both WWE World titles, he was the first man to have ever held every single WWE title. He's won 2 Royal Rumbles, and participated in some of the greatest matches in wrestling history. For almost 20 years he's been an innovator in the world of professional wrestling, participating in the first ladder, iron-man, and Hell in a Cell matches, and his charisma has gone unmatched for the better part of those two decades. Michaels has been one of, if not, my all time favorites. For more, I highly recommend, if you get a chance, reading his autobiography Heartbreak and Triumph. It's a great read, even for a non traditional wrestling fan.

So basically, I've decided that I wanted to go back and watch, via YouTube [sorry WWE home video] my top 5 Heartbreak Kid matches, and then summarize/review them in this blog, starting with number five. So without further adieu..

Number 5:
Survivor Series 1997 [The Montreal Screwjob]
Shawn Michaels vs. WWF Champion Bret "Hitman Hart

A little background [taken from Wikipedia]

The Montreal Screwjob was the real life double-crossing of defending WWF Champion Bret Hart by Vince McMahon, the owner of the World Wrestling Federation (WWF), during the main event match of the professional wrestling pay-per-view event Survivor Series held on November 9, 1997 at the Molson Centre in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. A secret change of the match's pre-determined finish (known as a "shoot screwjob" in professional wrestling parlance) was devised by McMahon and discussed with Hart's match opponent, Shawn Michaels. The plan was executed when the match referee, Earl Hebner, under orders from McMahon, called for the bell to ring and ended the match as Michaels held Hart in the Sharpshooter submission hold (Hart's signature finishing move), even though Hart had not submitted. Michaels was declared the victor by submission and crowned as the new WWF Champion.
The reason for this screwjob was rooted in Hart's decision to leave McMahon's company for its chief competitor, World Championship Wrestling (WCW), after McMahon told Hart that financial problems would not allow him to keep Hart on under his recently signed 20 year contract. Hart cited a clause in his contract that granted him "reasonable creative control" and was steadfast in his refusal to lose a match hosted in his home country of Canada, especially against Shawn Michaels, with whom he did not get along. McMahon remained insistent that Hart should lose to Michaels in Montreal, fearing that his company's business would suffer if WCW announced Hart as its latest signing while he still held the WWF World title. Although Hart and McMahon agreed to a compromise on the match ending that allowed Hart to retain the title, McMahon was determined to remove the title from Hart.
My review:
This match changed the face of wrestling as fans knew it. It is probably one of my favorite matches just based on the controversy surrounding it. It's a perfect medium from what wrestling was, to what it became, featuring two of the greatest, and two of my favorite wrestlers of all time, for sure. The first half of this match is basically an unofficial street-fight with the two combatants battling all around the ring and in the crowd, using "everything but the kitchen sink" [including a Canadian flag] to try and basically kill each other. The second half of this match is what they call a "technical wrestling clinic," just two of the best wrestlers, doing what they do best.. wrestle. Watching this match, you can actually feel the real-life animosity between these two guys, but at the same time you know that these are two of the best, because they know how to put on a great show.

Number 4:
Wrestlemania XXI
Kurt Angle vs. The Heartbreak Kid, Shawn Michaels

A little background here, Kurt Angle won the 1996 Olympic gold medal for amateur wrestling. So with that kind of amateur background, mixed with the natural charisma Kurt Angle has, sprinkle in some HBK... and this was bound to be in the top list. It's 2005, and it's the 30 man royal rumble match and HBK has just super kicked Kurt Angle over the top rope to the floor, eliminating him, and his chances at going to Wrestlemania XXI to face the WWE champion. At this point Kurt Angle has made it his personal mission to out perform HBK, aka Mr. Wrestlemania, and take out the Heartbreak Kid for good.

This match is one of my favorites because it's an example of pure, technical wrestling at it's best. No chair shots. No illegal tactics. There's not a lot of flash and lights or bells and whistles here..Unless you're turned on by a smooth, fast-paced wrestling match, like I am. Just two guys out there, trying to prove who's the best. From start to finish, bell to bell, an intense roller coaster ride. And right around the 25 minute mark Kurt Angle shocked the entire wrestling community after surviving a shot of Sweet Chin Music, slapped on his patented Ankle Lock submission, and kept it locked on for the better part of 2 minutes until HBK finally tapped out. And even though Michaels didn't win this match, it still made it on the top 5.

Number 3:
Wrestlemania XIX
Chris Jericho vs. The Heartbreak Kid, Shawn Michaels

Another brilliant technical battle. A classic student versus teacher bout, where Jericho is the student and HBK is the teacher. You can't find two wrestlers with such similar style in wrestling today. Jericho grew up idolizing HBK. He mimicked Michaels' every move starting out in wrestling, and why wouldn't he? Until one day when he outgrew his idolization, and grew into the thoughts that one day, he'd be better than Shawn Michaels. And so the challenge was made, and accepted for the "grandest stage of them all..Wrestlemania 19."

For me this match was so close to HBK's match with Kurt Angle. But I just like this one a little bit more, because I love Chris Jericho. He is one of the most entertaining wrestlers of all time. He can do it all, and no one has ever made any fan hate them more than Jericho has. And if you know me it all, you know I'm a sucker for a good villain, or as they say in wrestling, a heel. His natural charisma is second to none, maybe only to Michaels'. Both being smaller guys, they rely on their high flying ability, but can still throw in some technical skill. In this contest, they definitely knew how to utilize both to tell an intense, back and forth story. To end this one we saw HBK miss the Sweet Chin Music where Jericho could trip up Michaels and then apply his Walls of Jericho submission hold. Michaels eventually made it to the ropes and Jericho was forced to release it. When Jericho got up to complain to the referee that he didn't "hear" Michaels give up, HBK was right there to deliver the Sweet Chin Music, and this time successfully. Everyone knew it was over from here, all it took was a simple, 1-2-NO! Jericho kicks out! The match continues until HBK catches Jericho off-guard with a roll-up pinning combination and gets the 3 count! This was such a unique finish, because neither could win with their finishing hold, which I thought was so cool.. HBK had to completely catch Jericho off guard to win.

Number 2:

Wrestlemania XXV
The Undertaker vs. The Heartbreak Kid, Shawn Michaels

A classic grudge match. Two of the best, and most popular faces in the WWE's history. The Undertaker's 16-0 streak at Wrestlemania on the line against Mr. Wrestlemania himself. This to me, was the biggest build up to a match in probably 10 years. The mind games played in the events that led up to the match were legend. Shawn Michaels representing light. The Undertaker representing darkness. Probably one of the greatest matches of all-time, in my opinion. For the first time since the announcement of The Undertaker's streak, I really didn't know who would win. The entrances were spectacular. HBK arriving in all white as smoke filled the arena. Then, the lights went out, and the gong sounded, and the chills crept up our spines as The Undertaker almost glided through the fog. After a classic back and forth battle, we saw HBK climb the top rope and attempt a moonsault.. The same moonsault he missed from the top rope to the outside, landing on the concrete, The Undertaker caught him in mid-air and nailed him with the Tombstone to finally put away Shawn Michaels and extend the streak to 17-0!

Number 1:
Wrestlemania XXIV in a Career Threatening Match
Ric Flair vs. The Heartbreak Kid, Shawn Michaels

The was an obvious #1 choice to me. Ric Flair, arguably one of the greatest the wrestling business ever saw, was working a program that stated the first match he would lose, he would be forced to retire. Rather than go on, I thought I'd just post this video from YouTube, that describes it better than I could.

[I didn't know how to post a video on the thread, so I'll just give the link.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V-ByTfC6vo

Now, I actually get choked up watching that video. And I know a lot of people reading this who aren't big wrestling fans are probably laughing about that, but I don't really care. This match was terrific. Flair was well over 50 years old when he wrestled this match, and HBK took him past every limit. The ending saw HBK tuning up for Sweet Chin Music as Flair groggily climbed to his feet, right before HBK "pulled the trigger" so to speak, he looked at Flair and said "Thank you, I love you." Hit the Chin Music, and won the match.


A couple of close calls would have to be HBK's infamous Hell in a Cell and Casket Matches with the Undertaker, of course the Iron Man match with Bret, the Ladder match with Razor, the Intercontinental title bout against Davey Boy, his 2/3 falls match with Hunter, and there were a couple others. It was really hard for me to pick just 5.
 
It looks like DX is going to put over Legacy pretty well even into Breaking Point. Shawn is doing a good job as far as building up Cody. One has to wonder though...who is Shawn going to face at Wrestle Mania???
 

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