The Official Shawn Michaels Thread

[JCE]

Im a huge hbk mark and i can tell you right now he's not the best in the biz "today". He"ll never draw bigger than Cena, Orton, hhh, or Batista. Popularity and Drawing abillity are part of pro wrestling/ Sports entertainment or however anyone wants to debate that. Shawn is way too old, broken, and stale now to draw like todays maineventers. However to say he's not top 2 or 3 all time is crazy. As bad of a wrestler Hogan was shawn wont be better. Hogan drew crazy crowds huge fanbase and is the reason for all that is pro-wrestling/ Sports entertainment.

Shawn never put anyone over?? Are you guys fucking kidding? Austin wouldn't be what he is if Shawn would have walked out on the wwf without putting Austin over before he left. Austin was starting to get over then and after beating Shawn he was the man literaly over night because of that. (tourch passed)

In the mid to late 90s if all those stars were in there prime at the same time and in the same company only the rock, austin, taker would have survied. Everyone would have realized hogan was just a bodybuilder who flexed his muscles and that was it. Everyone else like cena, batista, hhh, jericho, mysterio, orton, and edge would be just as big as hall and nash are now. Shawn would have killed them on the mic, in the ring, drawing more boo's cheer's ect. (Cena will never be able to draw heat like hbk.) But this isnt the case wrestling is different now shawns too old and is as repetitive as cena batista and hhh (because he has too or maybe thats just the trend now?) In his HAY DAY hes WAS the best. He will never be as good as he was then and no one ever will.

 

[hlhbk]

I might be getting these arguments mixed up. Are we talking about how good Shawn is now or how good he was? I am mainly basing my arguements on how good Shawn has been in his career. Of course he isn't as good as he was in the 90's, with the mans injuries who would be?

Now if Shawn is motivated in 2009 I still say Cena can't touch him in the ring or on the stick. I just can't stand Cena just like I couldn't stand Hogan, nothing is going to change that. Like I said before I don't doubt the man loves this bussiness, but he never will be of of the top guys in my eyes. I don't judge who I think is the best by how much the WWE marketing machine can hype them up and get sales. I base it on talent.

Oh and southwind I have never said that Hunter never got people over. I was one of the people who believed that the argument that he got on top was due to steph was dumb. He was WWE champ when he was with Chyna, and I feel very similar to him that I do HBK.

Am I a HBK mark? Without a doubt. I am also a professional wrestling/in ring ability mark. If you are talented in the ring you are gold to me. All the other stuff is fluff. Once Shawn, and HHH retire I see nothing in the WWE that keeps me interested enough to stick around and keep watching wrestling.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I might be getting these arguments mixed up. Are we talking about how good Shawn is now or how good he was? I am mainly basing my arguements on how good Shawn has been in his career. Of course he isn't as good as he was in the 90's, with the mans injuries who would be?

Now if Shawn is motivated in 2009 I still say Cena can't touch him in the ring or on the stick. I just can't stand Cena just like I couldn't stand Hogan, nothing is going to change that. Like I said before I don't doubt the man loves this bussiness, but he never will be of of the top guys in my eyes. I don't judge who I think is the best by how much the WWE marketing machine can hype them up and get sales. I base it on talent.

Oh and southwind I have never said that Hunter never got people over. I was one of the people who believed that the argument that he got on top was due to steph was dumb. He was WWE champ when he was with Chyna, and I feel very similar to him that I do HBK.

Am I a HBK mark? Without a doubt. I am also a professional wrestling/in ring ability mark. If you are talented in the ring you are gold to me. All the other stuff is fluff. Once Shawn, and HHH retire I see nothing in the WWE that keeps me interested enough to stick around and keep watching wrestling.

When has Shawn ever been motivated recently? It's like he's just going through the motions in every match he is in. You can tell Cena is motivated each and every time he steps in the ring. You can't say that about Shawn. Also when is the last time HBK ever said anything remotely interesting on the mic? 1997?

If Cena will never be one of the top guys, then who will be? I don't see anybody else in the forseeable future, not even Orton yet. You better live these last days watching wrestling before HHH and HBK retire. Enjoy them while you can.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

This argument? Come on, you're better than that. This is the worst argument people use in regards to any wrestler. I saw someone in a Benjamin thread saying "You're led to believe Benjamin's promos are crap by the WWE". I mean, come on. We believe these things because WE SEE THEM. I believe Shawn is great..want to know why? Because I watch his matches and think they're great. What more is there to it?



If you're referring to people's rebuttal of YOUR post implying Shawn did nothing to further Benjamins career, they're in the right. Shawn wasn't to blame for Bejamin not being a bigger star.

People always blame HHH and Cena specifically for not furthering anybody's career and state they never put anybody over. So when Shelton capitalize on the opportunity he was given by HBK, now it's Shelton's fault? Fact of the matter is, HBK needs to start working with the younger guys more. Cena is doing it and HHH hopefully will do it as Taker will also.

 

[MrCharisma]

I can see Shawn Michaels returning as soon as next week or atleats annoucned at the special referee for the Cena versus Orton main event match. It's a way to put him on the card and throw him in the title picture. So now I ask what do you think about this as the way HBK returns?

 

[hlhbk]

When has Shawn ever been motivated recently? It's like he's just going through the motions in every match he is in. You can tell Cena is motivated each and every time he steps in the ring. You can't say that about Shawn. Also when is the last time HBK ever said anything remotely interesting on the mic? 1997?

If Cena will never be one of the top guys, then who will be? I don't see anybody else in the forseeable future, not even Orton yet. You better live these last days watching wrestling before HHH and HBK retire. Enjoy them while you can.

Based on what I said above I am convinced you don't like or respect HBK. When has been motivated? Since he has returned he has been motivated during his entire fued with Hunter, his fued with Jericho (both times), his fued with Hogan (without Shawn there was no build up to that entire fued), during the Angle fued, during the McMahon fued (made McMahon a million times better than he really is), during DX, during the Cena fued (made him look better than he ever has), during the Orton fued, during the Shelton match, and during the Undertaker fued. During all of those fueds he was awesome on the mic (especially parodying Hogan) and in the ring.

The times he is motivated far outweighs his fueds with people like Chris Masters. Regardless you make my point when you ask when HBK is motivated. By that question you seem to be agreeing with me that when he is motivated he is the best, but you are implying he isn't motivated much and does the same stuff all the time. Yet the people you say are the best do the exact same things in every match (Cena, and Hogan).

Quit contridicting yourself, and quit hating on HBK.

As far as who the top guy is going to be, as I have said nobody in the younger generation has stepped up, hence why I won't be watching wrestling when Shawn and Hunter are gone.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Based on what I said above I am convinced you don't like or respect HBK. When has been motivated? Since he has returned he has been motivated during his entire fued with Hunter, his fued with Jericho (both times), his fued with Hogan (without Shawn there was no build up to that entire fued), during the Angle fued, during the McMahon fued (made McMahon a million times better than he really is), during DX, during the Cena fued (made him look better than he ever has), during the Orton fued, during the Shelton match, and during the Undertaker fued. During all of those fueds he was awesome on the mic (especially parodying Hogan) and in the ring.

The times he is motivated far outweighs his fueds with people like Chris Masters. Regardless you make my point when you ask when HBK is motivated. By that question you seem to be agreeing with me that when he is motivated he is the best, but you are implying he isn't motivated much and does the same stuff all the time. Yet the people you say are the best do the exact same things in every match (Cena, and Hogan).

Quit contridicting yourself, and quit hating on HBK.

As far as who the top guy is going to be, as I have said nobody in the younger generation has stepped up, hence why I won't be watching wrestling when Shawn and Hunter are gone.

Convinced you say...

Go to post #7 (which is mine of course) and read those first few words I posted. I believe the word "respect" is in there because of all what he has done for the business. If it magically disappeared, I apologize. I believe he is hugely overrated and receives more credit than he actually deserves.

McMahon is always entertaining when he is in the ring so HBK didn't make him no worse or no greater. I think Cena made HBK better than he has than the other way around because HBK's 2006 was just awful.

Of course Cena and Hogan do the same stuff all the time. HBK does it and nobody seems to point that out, so it's my job to do so. Everybody does the same stuff all the time. It's those who get the crowd to be entertained that are highly successful.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Go to post #7 (which is mine of course) and read those first few words I posted. I believe the word "respect" is in there because of all what he has done for the business. If it magically disappeared, I apologize. I believe he is hugely overrated and receives more credit than he actually deserves.

It doesn't matter what you say, it is how you say it. What if I said I like John Cena and respect him, would you think I did or didn't(Although I do respect his work ethic)? Just saying you do doesn't mean you do. We have given you quality HBK fueds and matches in this thread and everyone of them you have shot down except for Cena vs Shawn and the only reason you say that wasn't a bad match was because, magically Cena carried the best in ring performer on the WWE in a hour match. You really need to sit down and figure out what the word respect means.

McMahon is always entertaining when he is in the ring so HBK didn't make him no worse or no greater. I think Cena made HBK better than he has than the other way around because HBK's 2006 was just awful.

Yes, Mcmahon is entertaining, some what, in the ring, but his matches are always crap. HBK made the man have the match of his life and he will propably never have a match that good ever again. Hell, its arguable that Hogan's best match was with HBK at Summerslam. No, Cena did not make HBK better. Simply because, we expect as much from HBK when he goes against the, "Top Stars" in wrestling. HBK was the one that was expected to deliver on that match and he did, big time.

Of course Cena and Hogan do the same stuff all the time. HBK does it and nobody seems to point that out, so it's my job to do so. Everybody does the same stuff all the time. It's those who get the crowd to be entertained that are highly successful.

All wrestlers have their own signatures, but all Cena and Hogan do is signature movements. We rarely ever get to see something from that they haven't shown all the time. HBK and others do there signatures leading into their finishers, but during the match we usually get to see some chain wrestling, some submission wrestling, transistion wrestling, etc etc.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

It doesn't matter what you say, it is how you say it. What if I said I like John Cena and respect him, would you think I did or didn't(Although I do respect his work ethic)? Just saying you do doesn't mean you do. We have given you quality HBK fueds and matches in this thread and everyone of them you have shot down except for Cena vs Shawn and the only reason you say that wasn't a bad match was because, magically Cena carried the best in ring performer on the WWE in a hour match. You really need to sit down and figure out what the word respect means.



Yes, Mcmahon is entertaining, some what, in the ring, but his matches are always crap. HBK made the man have the match of his life and he will propably never have a match that good ever again. Hell, its arguable that Hogan's best match was with HBK at Summerslam. No, Cena did not make HBK better. Simply because, we expect as much from HBK when he goes against the, "Top Stars" in wrestling. HBK was the one that was expected to deliver on that match and he did, big time.



All wrestlers have their own signatures, but all Cena and Hogan do is signature movements. We rarely ever get to see something from that they haven't shown all the time. HBK and others do there signatures leading into their finishers, but during the match we usually get to see some chain wrestling, some submission wrestling, transistion wrestling, etc etc.

I thought it was what you say that actually matters. I have seen the light now. Thank you so kindly for pointing out to me. I appreciate you very much.

That was sarcasm. You said it matters how you say it and not what you say.


The only ones I have shot down are most of his feuds since he came back. I like the early work he did before he got injured. I just find most of his work since 2002 to be overrated. I didn't know that was such an offense around here. Maybe then I really should sit down and figure out what the word respect means but I am already sitting down. If I would have shown disrespect, I would have said that Michaels is shit as a wrestler and that he should have stayed retired and I'm glad the Undertaker put him out for four years and that he is here mainly to get a paycheck. Have I said those things in my earlier because I haven't but it matters how you say it, isn't it?

You said my credibility was killed but now I'm going to kill yours when you just said arguably Hogan's best match was against HBK. I know you are better than that because that is plain ridiculous. I guess that guy named Sting, that guy named Warrior, and some legend named Antonio Inoki are sitting around thinking, "Did he just really say that?"

McMahon has had good matches with Flair, Hogan, Shane, HHH, Austin, etc. before he hooked up with HBK. Shawn didn't make him look worse or great than he was during those other matches. So you didn't see any transition wrestling or submission wrestling from Cena or Hogan? Might need to watch those matches again.

People state that Kurt Angle was only as good as the people he worked with. The same argument can be said for Michaels since 2002 as well because he worked with Benoit, HHH, Angle, Jericho, Undertaker, etc. There shouldn't be no double standards even when it concerns the almighty Shawn Michaels.

 

[hlhbk]

Three things:

1. I do agree with Lawler (did I actually say that!?!) that Hogan didn't have his best match with Shawn. It was top 5 in Hogan's career but Hogan's had better matches. It also didn't help that shawn was over selling since he was angry that after building the entire fued while Hogan stayed at home Hogan showed up and pulled his usual political BS.

2. Shawn's fueds since he has come back has been awesome. Also to say that HBK didn't make Mcmahon look better is assinine. None of those people you listed made Mcmahon look that good.

3. I agree Cena does a submission move. He has the STF. Other than that he never uses a submission move. Hogan never did submission wrestling (at least to finish matches).

Also on a side note it isn't a crime around here to not be a fan of Shawn's since 2002, it is a crime to say assinine things like Cena and Hogan are better at telling a story in the ring than Shawn.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Three things:

1. I do agree with Lawler (did I actually say that!?!) that Hogan didn't have his best match with Shawn. It was top 5 in Hogan's career but Hogan's had better matches. It also didn't help that shawn was over selling since he was angry that after building the entire fued while Hogan stayed at home Hogan showed up and pulled his usual political BS.

2. Shawn's fueds since he has come back has been awesome. Also to say that HBK didn't make Mcmahon look better is assinine. None of those people you listed made Mcmahon look that good.

3. I agree Cena does a submission move. He has the STF. Other than that he never uses a submission move. Hogan never did submission wrestling (at least to finish matches).

Also on a side note it isn't a crime around here to not be a fan of Shawn's since 2002, it is a crime to say assinine things like Cena and Hogan are better at telling a story in the ring than Shawn.

I enjoyed McMahon matches with Hogan, Flair, and Shane a hell of a lot of more than I did HBK. I even enjoyed his match with his own daughter. Those matches told so much more than his match with HBK.

Does it really matter that Hogan never did submission wrestling? Why is it so important to people that a certain wrestler has to do certain things to please them? Hogan and Cena are great at storytelling just like HBK and it's not a crime to say that. There isn't a Wrestlezone jail around here so I feel pretty safe.

 

[hlhbk]

1. You said Hogan did submission wrestling, so now that I called it out you are asking why?

2. It is a crime to say that Cena and Hogan are as good if not better than telling a story in the ring as shawn. Maybe on the mic they are if Shawn isn't motivated, but they can't touch shawn in the ring.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

1. You said Hogan did submission wrestling, so now that I called it out you are asking why?

2. It is a crime to say that Cena and Hogan are as good if not better than telling a story in the ring as shawn. Maybe on the mic they are if Shawn isn't motivated, but they can't touch shawn in the ring.

Why is it a crime? Will I get arrested if I say that Cena and Hogan are as good as telling a story as HBK because they are? I don't know how many Cena and Hogan matches you have watched because they display great storytelling. They make the crowd believe they will get beat and that evil will prevail. When they make their comeback, it gets the crowd hyped up because they think maybe they will win. And then when they do win, they cheer because good has won over evil. It's as simple as that and Cena and Hogan do that better than anybody else including Shawn.

I think I hear police sirens now.

 

[hlhbk]

Why is it a crime? Will I get arrested if I say that Cena and Hogan are as good as telling a story as HBK because they are? I don't know how many Cena and Hogan matches you have watched because they display great storytelling. They make the crowd believe they will get beat and that evil will prevail. When they make their comeback, it gets the crowd hyped up because they think maybe they will win. And then when they do win, they cheer because good has won over evil. It's as simple as that and Cena and Hogan do that better than anybody else including Shawn.

I think I hear police sirens now.

You mean small children believe they will get beat right? Cause anyone who knows anything about wrestling can sit there and basically call move for move what is coming in a Hogan and Cena match and that they win 97% of the time.

I never have a doubt Cena and especially Hogan will win. Nobody and I repeat NOBODY makes a crowd believe they are going to get beat before coming back like Shawn does. The man might as well be dead when he is getting beat down.

 

[Thriller Ant]

You mean small children believe they will get beat right? Cause anyone who knows anything about wrestling can sit there and basically call move for move what is coming in a Hogan and Cena match and that they win 97% of the time.

I never have a doubt Cena and especially Hogan will win. Nobody and I repeat NOBODY makes a crowd believe they are going to get beat before coming back like Shawn does. The man might as well be dead when he is getting beat down.

Sorry, but you are being hypocritical if you say that Hogan and Cena matches are predictable but HBK's aren't. When he wins, he goes through his series of signature moves. Flying clothesline, inverted atomic drop, kip up, elbow drop, tuning up the band, Sweet Chin Music. That is how WWE works right now. Cena does it, Hardy does it, HHH does it. In fact, off the top of my head is the only major face I can think of that doesn't have a series of signature moves he goes through immediately before his finisher. You can't call out one or two guys for it, because everyone does.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You mean small children believe they will get beat right? Cause anyone who knows anything about wrestling can sit there and basically call move for move what is coming in a Hogan and Cena match and that they win 97% of the time.

I never have a doubt Cena and especially Hogan will win. Nobody and I repeat NOBODY makes a crowd believe they are going to get beat before coming back like Shawn does. The man might as well be dead when he is getting beat down.

Doesn't the same thing happen to HBK? Methinks it does. HBK always gets beat down during the match and comes back to win 97% of the time. And you can pretty much call a HBK match move for move. It's not like he does a lot in a match anyway.

You never have a doubt that Cena will win? So you're admitting that you always expected Cena to win against HBK? Shawn has little to no offense to speak of anyway so he might as well be dead. The only time I doubt Shawn Michaels to win is when he was facing the Undertaker and Taker won like everybody knew he would.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Um Hogan isn't even in the WWE right now. He always has done it, Shawn hasn't. Cena has always done it, Shawn hasn't.

Give us some example of how Shawn hasn't. Back up your arguments because if you don't, we won't give two shits about them. We know Hogan isn't in the WWE. When he was in it, he was doing the same things Cena and HBK were doing. It's been going on forever and you can't handicap it to a certain timeframe.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I thought it was what you say that actually matters. I have seen the light now. Thank you so kindly for pointing out to me. I appreciate you very much.

Thanks, you know, I try.

That was sarcasm. You said it matters how you say it and not what you say.

It does matter how you say it. Okay, I am going to say that I love Cena and respect his in ring work. Do you believe me? All I have to do is say it right? But then, I am going to come back and say every match that I have seen him in was shit, or at least for the last 5 years.

The only ones I have shot down are most of his feuds since he came back. I like the early work he did before he got injured. I just find most of his work since 2002 to be overrated. I didn't know that was such an offense around here. Maybe then I really should sit down and figure out what the word respect means but I am already sitting down. If I would have shown disrespect, I would have said that Michaels is shit as a wrestler and that he should have stayed retired and I'm glad the Undertaker put him out for four years and that he is here mainly to get a paycheck. Have I said those things in my earlier because I haven't but it matters how you say it, isn't it?

You are basically saying that he is in it for the money. Saying he is never motivated or saying his matches are lazy or lackluster. Yea, I think that if you said those things to Shawn himself, he would feel disrespected.

You said my credibility was killed but now I'm going to kill yours when you just said arguably Hogan's best match was against HBK. I know you are better than that because that is plain ridiculous. I guess that guy named Sting, that guy named Warrior, and some legend named Antonio Inoki are sitting around thinking, "Did he just really say that?"

Yes, I did really just say that. That was my favorite match of Hogan's and if it wasn't the best match, it was best that Hogan performed, especially since his return to the WWE. Are you really going to say that his match with Sting was better than with HBK? Hogan and Sting have both publically said that their match was horrible and didn't live up to the hype. Get the Hogan DVD, he says it on there.

McMahon has had good matches with Flair, Hogan, Shane, HHH, Austin, etc. before he hooked up with HBK. Shawn didn't make him look worse or great than he was during those other matches. So you didn't see any transition wrestling or submission wrestling from Cena or Hogan? Might need to watch those matches again.

His match with Flair was the only good one that you mentioned. To say that McMahon didn't look better in his match with HBK is just bogus. You know, I can't figure out what kind of wrestling you like. You will give us one example of a match style, we will give you another example of different match with the same style and you shoot it down, make up your mind. I am convinced that if it doesn't have John Cena in it, you will consider it a shit match. I guess you think Cena had the best match at NoC this past Sunday, when clearly, it was Mysterio.

People state that Kurt Angle was only as good as the people he worked with. The same argument can be said for Michaels since 2002 as well because he worked with Benoit, HHH, Angle, Jericho, Undertaker, etc. There shouldn't be no double standards even when it concerns the almighty Shawn Michaels.

Who said that, I never said that. Kurt Angle(IMO) is one of the best wrestlers that I have ever seen and he made alot of people look good or even better than they were. Fact is, the almight Shawn Michaels has done and still does it more often than anyone in wrestling.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Thanks, you know, I try.



It does matter how you say it. Okay, I am going to say that I love Cena and respect his in ring work. Do you believe me? All I have to do is say it right? But then, I am going to come back and say every match that I have seen him in was shit, or at least for the last 5 years.



You are basically saying that he is in it for the money. Saying he is never motivated or saying his matches are lazy or lackluster. Yea, I think that if you said those things to Shawn himself, he would feel disrespected.



Yes, I did really just say that. That was my favorite match of Hogan's and if it wasn't the best match, it was best that Hogan performed, especially since his return to the WWE. Are you really going to say that his match with Sting was better than with HBK? Hogan and Sting have both publically said that their match was horrible and didn't live up to the hype. Get the Hogan DVD, he says it on there.



His match with Flair was the only good one that you mentioned. To say that McMahon didn't look better in his match with HBK is just bogus. You know, I can't figure out what kind of wrestling you like. You will give us one example of a match style, we will give you another example of different match with the same style and you shoot it down, make up your mind. I am convinced that if it doesn't have John Cena in it, you will consider it a shit match. I guess you think Cena had the best match at NoC this past Sunday, when clearly, it was Mysterio.



Who said that, I never said that. Kurt Angle(IMO) is one of the best wrestlers that I have ever seen and he made alot of people look good or even better than they were. Fact is, the almight Shawn Michaels has done and still does it more often than anyone in wrestling.

So you are saying that Hogan wrestled his best against HBK? His matches with Undertaker, HHH, Jericho, and Kurt were better than the one he wrestled with HBK. Pretty much your convictions are wrong because my favorite matches ever don't involve John Cena but they don't involve HBK either so you don't have to worry about that. I do have my mind made up and it's just you don't like what I have to say.

McMahon did what he was supposed to do and take bumps. HBK didn't make him look any better or any worse. He was in better matches against Flair, Hogan, and even his own son Shane and daughter Stephanie. How did HBK make him so much better since you haven't explained why?

Regarding Night of Champions, I thought the triple threat match was better than the Mysterio/Ziggler match. The Mysterio/Ziggler didn't flow right and Ziggler looked like he was using his high impact moves too often during the match. It wasn't a Mysterio/Jericho classic but it was decent and it's good for 2nd best that night. Maybe 3rd since I liked the U.S. Title match better.

 

[Milkyway!]

Firstly, I start with Little Jerry Lawler. Is post count really this important to you Little J? Your arguements aren't even stating anything, your making him defeat himself. Mean bastard you are.

Thanks, you know, I try.

Poorly I might add. I've caught up on what alls been said, you fall for his tricks everytime. State an arguement, show the video proof, and move on. His shit doesn't work for long if you do this.

It does matter how you say it. Okay, I am going to say that I love Cena and respect his in ring work. Do you believe me?

Not really. I have problems believing anything coming from you.

All I have to do is say it right?

No, prove it. Its what I want.

But then, I am going to come back and say every match that I have seen him in was shit, or at least for the last 5 years.

Oh me, what a blind soul you have! God, please do not spite this poor man down for the lies hes just told.

You are basically saying that he is in it for the money.

You shold probably work on your reading comprehension. Thats not what he said.

Saying he is never motivated or saying his matches are lazy or lackluster.

I don't even think Becca will tell you that Shawn gives 100% everytime hes in that ring. She may tell you 50% of Shawn is better than many peoples 100% but, not that lie. Shawn proves at every WrestleMania, hes holding shit back every single time he wrestles, thus causing the lazy arguement to appear.

Yea, I think that if you said those things to Shawn himself, he would feel disrespected.

I'm certain if you said a lot of things to anyone, critiquing their lifetime of work, then yeah they would fell disrespected. Everyones obligated to an opinion, his is Shawn is lazy in the ring, once again the proof lies in every Wrestlemania Shawn's ever been apart of, he holds back and gets lazy often.

Yes, I did really just say that.

You're on meth. I allready know it.

That was my favorite match of Hogan's and if it wasn't the best match, it was best that Hogan performed, especially since his return to the WWE.

No it wasn't.

Are you really going to say that his match with Sting was better than with HBK?

15x better, to say the least. Sting is one of the greatest in-ring preformers ever. I would easily put him over Shawn, I'm a Shawn mark, but I'd still put him way over Shawn. (for anyone that brings up my 2 threads on how much I hate Shawn Michaels, you should really know I only did that to create discussion. The person it was aimed at for me to debate, knows who she is, it was a show.)

Hogan and Sting have both publically said that their match was horrible and didn't live up to the hype.

Proof?

Get the Hogan DVD, he says it on there.

Err? I don't recall it. Please, get on YouTube, DailyMotion, whatever. Show me the proof.

His match with Flair was the only good one that you mentioned.

Thats a boldface lie, and you know it.

You know, I can't figure out what kind of wrestling you like.

Heh, its fairly easy to tell what kind of Wrestling Lawler likes. Its called the good stuff.

You will give us one example of a match style, we will give you another example of different match with the same style and you shoot it down, make up your mind.

Sigh, wrestling isn't about one style. Shawn Michaels can wrestler a great style of wrestling one way, and wrestle the same style of wrestling in a less, mediocre way.

I am convinced that if it doesn't have John Cena in it, you will consider it a shit match.

Boldface lie.

I guess you think Cena had the best match at NoC this past Sunday, when clearly, it was Mysterio.

What the fizzuck were you watching? Mysterio's match was a 7 out of 9 in my book. You should check out Randy Orton, Jeff Hardy, andCM Punk, there was a preformance and a half from those men. Hell, McCool preformed better than Mysterio did this past Sunday. The Mysterio match was to keep Ziggler over, while keeping Mysterio on the title. Mysterio didn't get to shine as much as he probably wanted. That was a great match, don't get me wrong, but the point of the match wasn't for Mysterio to shine, so he didn't.

Who said that, I never said that. Kurt Angle(IMO) is one of the best wrestlers that I have ever seen and he made alot of people look good or even better than they were.

Heh...Kurts good, but hes not that good.

Fact is, the almight Shawn Michaels has done and still does it more often than anyone in wrestling.

Shawn Michaels almost killed the WWE brand with his huge ego back in '96-'97. You should learn some wrestling history. Theres no doupt that Shawn is good, even great, but honestly man. You are defeating yourself through your arguements. Shawns not the greatest ever, he had the potential to be, but Shawn really does get lazy in the ring quite often. Look at his on TV matches, then look at his WrestleMania matches. TV is where the people are drawn, WrestleMania is where people are entertained. Shawn doesn't help to draw people on TV like he could be able to, thus I say Shawn is lazy.

 

[SSJPhenom]

So you are saying that Hogan wrestled his best against HBK? His matches with Undertaker, HHH, Jericho, and Kurt were better than the one he wrestled with HBK. Pretty much your convictions are wrong because my favorite matches ever don't involve John Cena but they don't involve HBK either so you don't have to worry about that. I do have my mind made up and it's just you don't like what I have to say.

I'm an Undertaker mark and even I didn't like Hogan's matches with 'Taker. His match with HHH turned HHH into something I hate to see him do and thats power wrestle, I can't remember his matches with Jericho, and his match with Kurt was great. Problem with his match with Kurt was, its build up wasn't as good as his match with HBK was and HBK deserves 100% of that credit since Hogan stayed at home and let HBK do all the work. That should tell you everything you need to know about HBK right there. Don't tell me my convictions are wrong. It is a matter of taste and opinion and my opinion is that Hogan's match with HBK was his best performance.

McMahon did what he was supposed to do and take bumps. HBK didn't make him look any better or any worse. He was in better matches against Flair, Hogan, and even his own son Shane and daughter Stephanie. How did HBK make him so much better since you haven't explained why?

HBK had a match with Vince McMahon and it was a MOTY candidate. The build up for that match was great and the match itself was exactly what we wanted it to be: Michaels beating the holy hell out of McMahon, plus, it gave us the core build up for the return of DX. I'm not going to say that it was classic, but it was definately MY FAVORITE involving McMahon.

Regarding Night of Champions, I thought the triple threat match was better than the Mysterio/Ziggler match. The Mysterio/Ziggler didn't flow right and Ziggler looked like he was using his high impact moves too often during the match. It wasn't a Mysterio/Jericho classic but it was decent and it's good for 2nd best that night. Maybe 3rd since I liked the U.S. Title match better.

The triple threat was shit. It was a shit match with a shit ending. That match was lame and it wasn't anything that we haven't seen before. Mysterio and Ziggler was good and Mysterio did exactly what he was supposed to do. He brought Ziggler up to his level and put him over as a wrestler.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I'm an Undertaker mark and even I didn't like Hogan's matches with 'Taker. His match with HHH turned HHH into something I hate to see him do and thats power wrestle, I can't remember his matches with Jericho, and his match with Kurt was great. Problem with his match with Kurt was, its build up wasn't as good as his match with HBK was and HBK deserves 100% of that credit since Hogan stayed at home and let HBK do all the work. That should tell you everything you need to know about HBK right there. Don't tell me my convictions are wrong. It is a matter of taste and opinion and my opinion is that Hogan's match with HBK was his best performance.



HBK had a match with Vince McMahon and it was a MOTY candidate. The build up for that match was great and the match itself was exactly what we wanted it to be: Michaels beating the holy hell out of McMahon, plus, it gave us the core build up for the return of DX. I'm not going to say that it was classic, but it was definately MY FAVORITE involving McMahon.



The triple threat was shit. It was a shit match with a shit ending. That match was lame and it wasn't anything that we haven't seen before. Mysterio and Ziggler was good and Mysterio did exactly what he was supposed to do. He brought Ziggler up to his level and put him over as a wrestler.

Sure, HBK deserves 100% of the credit. I see a pig flying past my window. The only way he deserved 100% of the credit if he was wrestling himself but there was a guy greater than him across the ring from him.

I would take the buildup for the Hogan/McMahon matchup more than the HBK/McMahon buildup. No way it deserved match of the year because the Undertaker/Angle match at No Way Out was a hundred times better but I guess since it's HBK and WM, no other match matters to them.

Mysterio didn't bring Ziggler to his level in that match and I'm putting some of that on Ziggler. I knew the match wasn't going to be like Mysterio/Jericho but I expected it to be a little bit better. HHH/Orton/Cena had good action all the way through and even though I didn't like some of the ending, I still think it was match of the night.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Sure, HBK deserves 100% of the credit. I see a pig flying past my window. The only way he deserved 100% of the credit if he was wrestling himself but there was a guy greater than him across the ring from him.

I would never give 100% of the credit for a match to one person. I was talking about the build up for the match. All of that credit goes to Michaels.

I would take the buildup for the Hogan/McMahon matchup more than the HBK/McMahon buildup. No way it deserved match of the year because the Undertaker/Angle match at No Way Out was a hundred times better but I guess since it's HBK and WM, no other match matters to them.

I wouldn't take the build up for Hogan and McMahon over HBK and McMahon. I loved how they brought HBK's personal life into it. I completely agree with you on 'Taker and Angle, I think I have said that before, but the fact remains, HBK/McMahon was a good match. Tell me how the other's in McMahon's catalogue were better.

Mysterio didn't bring Ziggler to his level in that match and I'm putting some of that on Ziggler. I knew the match wasn't going to be like Mysterio/Jericho but I expected it to be a little bit better. HHH/Orton/Cena had good action all the way through and even though I didn't like some of the ending, I still think it was match of the night.

I thought Mysterio did a great job with a lesser talent, HBK could have done more but whatever. You have critized the WM 20 triple threat as shit because it was basically a one on one match(That's what you said), so what was HHH/Orton/Cena? It was either HHH vs Orton or Cena vs Orton, so by what you have said earlier, how do you consider that a good triple threat?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I would never give 100% of the credit for a match to one person. I was talking about the build up for the match. All of that credit goes to Michaels.



I wouldn't take the build up for Hogan and McMahon over HBK and McMahon. I loved how they brought HBK's personal life into it. I completely agree with you on 'Taker and Angle, I think I have said that before, but the fact remains, HBK/McMahon was a good match. Tell me how the other's in McMahon's catalogue were better.



I thought Mysterio did a great job with a lesser talent, HBK could have done more but whatever. You have critized the WM 20 triple threat as shit because it was basically a one on one match(That's what you said), so what was HHH/Orton/Cena? It was either HHH vs Orton or Cena vs Orton, so by what you have said earlier, how do you consider that a good triple threat?

So the dispute over who created Hulkamania and Hogan almost putting McMahon out of business is not better buildup than HBK/McMahon. All HBK told Vince to do was grow up. I loved the Vince/Shane match at Wrestlemania 17 because it was WCW against WWF and it heavily involved all the members of the McMahon family.

I didn't say HHH/Orton/Cena was the greatest triple threat ever. I said it was the match of the night and my main issue with the WM 20 match was I thought HBK shouldn't have been in it the first place.

 

[hlhbk]

How are Shawns matches not predictable? Last time I checked in his fued with Hunter he won those matches with stuff other than sweet chin music. He beat Jericho at WM 19 with a roll up from behind. Cena never does that stuff and neither does Hogan.

To answser your question without a doubt as much hate doing it I ALWAYS expect Cena to win, even when facing Hunter and Shawn. Vince is enamored with Cena, and in the end he always comes out on top no matter who he faces.

As far as McMahon vs HBK, was it the best build up ever? No. At that point Shawn's super christian baby face gimmick was starting to wear on me a bit, and his matches started to get stale. However he channeled the OLD (pre injury) HBK in that match and put some of it in his promos since. That being said that match was by far the best one McMahon has ever had. Everyone involved with the WWE has said that.