The Official Shawn Michaels Thread

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Hunter and Shawn have continually helped the younger guys since WM 20. Randy Orton and Batista never would have gotten to where they did as fast as they did if Hunter and Flair had not chosen them for Evolution. He lost multiple times to Shelton B as well.

As I have documented above Shawn has put over the younger guys tons since coming back. If these younger guys can't take these opportunities and run with them that is there fault. While we are talking about people refusing to do the right thing for the bussiness why exactly did Hogan go over both Shawn and Randy Orton in consecutive years at Summerslam?

Name these younger guys that HHH and Shawn have continually helped because I haven't see it. Shelton is one example but who else?

Why would Shawn need to go over Hogan? Shawn didn't need putting over and Orton was coming off from a suspension. Why should he have gone over Hogan given those circumstances?

 

[hlhbk]

Um Cena, Orton, Batista, Edge, and Jericho anyone?

Let's see why should a guy who is still actively competiing in the WWE and putting younger guys over jobbing to a guy that comes in maybe once a year, and goes over any body he faces but can barely move? Why should the guy that built 75% of that fued by himself while Hogan was at home should go over?

As far as Orton goes please. You whine about Shawn and Hunter not putting people over, Hogan is the king of that. Randy was really going with his legend killer thing, how huge would it have been for him to beat hogan?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Um Cena, Orton, Batista, Edge, and Jericho anyone?

Let's see why should a guy who is still actively competiing in the WWE and putting younger guys over jobbing to a guy that comes in maybe once a year, and goes over any body he faces but can barely move? Why should the guy that built 75% of that fued by himself while Hogan was at home should go over?

As far as Orton goes please. You whine about Shawn and Hunter not putting people over, Hogan is the king of that. Randy was really going with his legend killer thing, how huge would it have been for him to beat hogan?

You said it yourself that Shawn is a legend and one of the best ever. Losing to Hogan wouldn't have changed any of that and winning wouldn't have either. Maybe Orton should have beat Hogan but after his actions earlier in the year, I don't blame Vince for booking Hogan over Orton.

HBK didn't put Cena over, he made Orton look worse going out than coming in, and MITB got Edge over.

You're older than me so you should know that Hogan put plenty of people other. Also when he came back in 2002, he put over a guy named Brock Lesnar and the Rock did too. He did more losing than winning when he was back.

 

[Southwind]

I have nothing else to add to this thread Little Jerry Lawler is right about HBK. Most of the people defending him are just blind marks or don't know wrestling. The fact is most of his fans won't accept he can't get guys over which I said isn't his fault by the way. I just have a problem with people giving him to much credit when he doesn't deserve it.

 

[hlhbk]

People never give him enough credit is my entire point. Also Lawler you do realize that hogan's refusing to lay down for people is one of the reasons why WCW folded right? Also yeah Orton putting HBK out for months due to kicking him in the head sure didn't make Orton look better did it?

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

People never give him enough credit is my entire point. Also Lawler you do realize that hogan's refusing to lay down for people is one of the reasons why WCW folded right? Also yeah Orton putting HBK out for months due to kicking him in the head sure didn't make Orton look better did it?

Or that people give him more credit than he actually deserves? All we hear is the great HBK this, and the great HBK that, and people making him better than he actually is.

Give me concrete proof that one of the reasons WCW folded is because of Hogan since you haven't.

What was Orton doing directly after that? Beating up on Sgt. Slaughter and Dusty Rhodes. HBK sure didn't do him no favors when he came back. The only way Orton could have beaten HBK was without Michaels using Sweet Chin Music. Made Orton look more like shit than great.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Read any of the accounts of WCW's downfall they all say it.

Again not HBK's problem they didn't book Orton strong after HBK put him over.

Except they kind of did. Wasn't Orton's fault that JBL interfered in his match with Jericho. Orton did beat Hardy at the Royal Rumble and Cena and HHH at Wrestlemania. HHH did the initial damage to Orton in 2004 and HBK couldn't even make it better so he did not put over Orton.

And what happened after Orton won that match against HBK? Michaels gave him Sweet Chin Music. Nice job HBK.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You mean like OMG cena always wins! Shocking! Great job Cena! I don't ever want to hear anyone who supports Cena talk about any other wrestler ALWAYS winning. Speaking of that who has cena put over?

Where did I talk about any other wrestler always winning? You may have to direct me to that one. Oh and also where I said I support Cena. Don't know where I said that.

Cena has put over Umaga, Khali, and Swagger. Still more than HBK has put over. Putting somebody over is mainly about what they were doing coming in and how they looked going out. Umaga, Khali, and Swagger have looked better going out after facing Cena than coming in. Shelton was better before he faced HBK and hasn't done shit since than so even the almighty HBK couldn't save Shelton.

 

[hlhbk]

By your definition HBK has put 100s of people over in his career.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

By your definition HBK has put 100s of people over in his career.

Name these hundreds of people that HBK has put over. HHH has put over more people than HBK and we all know about HHH and his backstage politics. HBK is good but he is in my third tier of wrestling greats and will stay that way.

 

[obiwansidisi]

Well... uh, I guess we can end this debate right? because Cena, Triple H, CM Punk or anyone else that you want to compare to have nothing to do with this...

 

[hlhbk]

Lawler I would like to see your list of wrestlers who are better than HBK?

Also I don't need to list anything. Anyone who has wrestled HBK comes out better than they came in except for Bret Hart that is.

Also you are right Obi we can end this debate. HBK is top 3 all time best wrestlers ever.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Lawler I would like to see your list of wrestlers who are better than HBK?

Also I don't need to list anything. Anyone who has wrestled HBK comes out better than they came in except for Bret Hart that is.

Also you are right Obi we can end this debate. HBK is top 3 all time best wrestlers ever.

I consider Mysterio, Cena, Batista, Jericho, and Punk right now who are better wrestlers than HBK. At the end of the day, HBK will not be remembered as one f of the top three all-time as those spots will be occupied by Hogan, Austin, and Ric Flair which is debatable. Did Khali come out looking better than he did against Khali? Did Orton come out looking better? The answer to both those questions is no.

 

[hlhbk]

Like I said anyone who wrestled Shawn that isn't Bret Hart looked better, so the anwsers to those are yes.

Punk, Batista, and Cena can't touch shawn in the ring when he is motivated.

 

[BooCocky]

Like I said anyone who wrestled Shawn that isn't Bret Hart looked better, so the anwsers to those are yes.

Punk, Batista, and Cena can't touch shawn in the ring when he is motivated.

But when is he motivated? In March and in September or whenever Summerslam is. He performs well two times a year where Cena on the other hand performs quality matches at every pay per view he participates in. Same goes for Mysterio and Jericho.

The last time Shawn wrestled a man where he came out strong was when he received the Swanton after Jeff's initial push last year. Orton didn't look better after his feud with Michaels, and the same could be said for Benjamin.

HBK is top 3 all time best wrestlers ever.

No where close.. Austin, Rock, Hogan might have something to say about that.

You are right I saw the match on raw where Cena was carried for an hour by HBK.

If you believe Cena was carried you are nothing but a blind hater and an HBK fanboy who think HBK is gods gift to professional wrestling.

 

[hlhbk]

You are comparing Cena, Mysterio, and Jericho to a 44 year old man. In his prime he kept up a pace that all 3 of those people couldn't do today. Due to all of his accomplishments and sacrifices he made for the WWF at the time there is no reason as long as he still is able to wrestle at a high level he shouldn't be allowed to do what he wants.

Shelton never had a fued with Shawn, though if he did those would have been some of the greatest matches of all time. Keeping Shawn out for months made Orton look awesome, again not Shawn's problem Orton was booked the way he was.

Overall package in his prime nobody (that includes Austin, Hogan, and the Rock) was equal to Shawn. Some might have been better on the stick (Austin, Hogan, and the Rock all were), but nobody was better overall than HBK.

You can call me whatever you want, but Cena hasn't had as good of match without Shawn in the ring. Let me guess you also believe Hogan wasn't carried in his match with Shawn in 2005?

 

[SSJPhenom]

I consider Mysterio, Cena, Batista, Jericho, and Punk right now who are better wrestlers than HBK. At the end of the day, HBK will not be remembered as one f of the top three all-time as those spots will be occupied by Hogan, Austin, and Ric Flair which is debatable. Did Khali come out looking better than he did against Khali? Did Orton come out looking better? The answer to both those questions is no.

Ok, I can see you saying that Mysterio or Jericho might be better than HBK, MIGHT BE! But Batista. Your creditability was shot along time ago, but you just dug it up and killed it again. Batista hasn't been entertaining since just after WM 21 and the only reason that he was entertaining then was because he was feuding with HHH. Batista is Warrior reincarnated, a few high impact moves and a little posing and all of a sudden he is good. He isn't even that good on the mic and has no more charisma than any mid carder on the roster. It is clear that you just don't like HBK, idc if you say you do or not. To say that Batista is better than HBK is like saying Cena is just as good or better than Hogan or Austin, its just bullshit. Tell me how Batista is better, please.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

You are comparing Cena, Mysterio, and Jericho to a 44 year old man. In his prime he kept up a pace that all 3 of those people couldn't do today. Due to all of his accomplishments and sacrifices he made for the WWF at the time there is no reason as long as he still is able to wrestle at a high level he shouldn't be allowed to do what he wants.

Shelton never had a fued with Shawn, though if he did those would have been some of the greatest matches of all time. Keeping Shawn out for months made Orton look awesome, again not Shawn's problem Orton was booked the way he was.

Overall package in his prime nobody (that includes Austin, Hogan, and the Rock) was equal to Shawn. Some might have been better on the stick (Austin, Hogan, and the Rock all were), but nobody was better overall than HBK.

You can call me whatever you want, but Cena hasn't had as good of match without Shawn in the ring. Let me guess you also believe Hogan wasn't carried in his match with Shawn in 2005?

Time out.

You asked me to name wrestlers who are better than HBK right now and you're going to discredit them because of how old he is. Alright then, HBK is the best 44-year old wrestler but it's still not saying much.

Well if Shawn made Orton look as great as you think he did, then maybe Orton would have been better booked. The Undertaker made Orton look a whole better in 2005 then HBK ever could and that's a fact. Orton had to screw it up after WM 22 however Undertaker/Orton > HBK/Orton by far.

You say you're been watching wrestling for a while but I bet if you were five years older you will be changing you statement about HBK being the best in his prime. Hogan was great as a wrestler and then he stuck to a moveset that got the maximum reaction from the crowd and still was more highly successful than HBK can ever dream to be.

Cena has had great matches with Khali, Orton, Lashley, Edge, HHH, etc. Name the last time Shawn Michaels has had a match with somebody as great as Cena and remember: Cena > Shelton.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Ok, I can see you saying that Mysterio or Jericho might be better than HBK, MIGHT BE! But Batista. Your creditability was shot along time ago, but you just dug it up and killed it again. Batista hasn't been entertaining since just after WM 21 and the only reason that he was entertaining then was because he was feuding with HHH. Batista is Warrior reincarnated, a few high impact moves and a little posing and all of a sudden he is good. He isn't even that good on the mic and has no more charisma than any mid carder on the roster. It is clear that you just don't like HBK, idc if you say you do or not. To say that Batista is better than HBK is like saying Cena is just as good or better than Hogan or Austin, its just bullshit. Tell me how Batista is better, please.

He doesn't need to be great on the mic but he is good at what he does. He's a power guy, he does power moves and he does them very effectively. He is one of the better workers in the WWE and no matter what you think, Batista/Cena was still better than HBK/Flair. He still gets one of the best crowd reactions, better than HBK when he appears every six months. His main event with Taker at WM 23 was one of the best in recent memory, better than HBK/Angle and almost better than HBK/Jericho. Shawn hasn't looked motivated in a long time and Batista actually has and all those factors why I think Batista is a better wrestler than HBK right now.

I'm still more credible than you and I didn't know you were the end all be all in terms of my credibility. I'm in trouble then.

 

[obiwansidisi]

Well I am old enough. I remember watching the AWA, I remember when the “Midnight Rockers” first debuted in the AWA back in 1985. I’ll be the first to tell you that Shawn was the man. After they were signed to the WWE in 1987, Shawn blew up. He introduced the first ladder match in the WWF(E), to which he had a historical feud with Razor Ramon (Kliq), won numerous titles… the first ever to hold all of them, started DX with Nash (Kliq), later on added Trips and Pac (Kliq). He has one of the most beautiful flying elbows I’ve ever seen, second only to Macho Man! I was a huge fan, but… and this is a big but… he’s gone the way of Hogan. He does the same thing every match.

---He gets beat down…
---Rallies a comeback…
---Gets beat down again to the point where he’s not going to make it…
---The announcer screams, “Shawn’s in trouble!”…
---He performs a “Kip up”…
---He does a flying elbow off the top…
---Beaten and broken, he somehow has just enough strength to pull of “Sweet Chin Music”

Now, honestly… how is that different from Hogan? I’ll give you HBK was the man… key word “was”. That’s what I was saying… He won’t let it go. ‘Taker puts guys over. Angle, Booker, Nash, Golddust, JBL puts guys over. The latter half of Bob Holly’s run was putting guys over… Cody Rhodes wouldn’t be who he is without it. That’s all I was saying… Whenever HBK comes back, within 2 weeks, he’ll be #1 contender, mark my words…

 

[Southwind]

But when is he motivated? In March and in September or whenever Summerslam is. He performs well two times a year where Cena on the other hand performs quality matches at every pay per view he participates in. Same goes for Mysterio and Jericho.

If you believe Cena was carried you are nothing but a blind hater and an HBK fanboy who think HBK is gods gift to professional wrestling.

This is my main problem with HBK he only shows up twice a year and seems to mail it in on most other occasions. While guys like Cena get ripped to shreds despite him giving the fans his best every night.

HBK fans have this false perception of greatness most likely driven into their minds by the WWE machine no less. People rip Cena and Triple H for not geting guys over but when you tell HBK marks that he never did it either they claim it's not his fault pot meet kettle.

Shawn Michaels is not even in my top four greatest wrestlers in this era or any other.

 

[HBK-aholic]

HBK fans have this false perception of greatness most likely driven into their minds by the WWE machine no less.

This argument? Come on, you're better than that. This is the worst argument people use in regards to any wrestler. I saw someone in a Benjamin thread saying "You're led to believe Benjamin's promos are crap by the WWE". I mean, come on. We believe these things because WE SEE THEM. I believe Shawn is great..want to know why? Because I watch his matches and think they're great. What more is there to it?

People rip Cena and Triple H for not geting guys over but when you tell HBK marks that he never did it either they claim it's not his fault pot meet kettle.

If you're referring to people's rebuttal of YOUR post implying Shawn did nothing to further Benjamins career, they're in the right. Shawn wasn't to blame for Bejamin not being a bigger star.

 

[Southwind]

This argument? Come on, you're better than that. This is the worst argument people use in regards to any wrestler. I saw someone in a Benjamin thread saying "You're led to believe Benjamin's promos are crap by the WWE". I mean, come on. We believe these things because WE SEE THEM. I believe Shawn is great..want to know why? Because I watch his matches and think they're great. What more is there to it?

I like and respect Shawn Michaels I tried to make that clear but I guess I didn't. I'm just sick of the complaining and double standards that whip through these forums. Benjamin has zero talent on the mic and has little ring pyschology he's just an athlete. Yet I've had to hear how HBK put him on the map with a great match between the two and he should have ran with the opportunity Shawn gave him.

There are a couple things that make a wrestler great booking and himself nothing else if you have talent you'll be at the top and if you don't then you'll be a mid card/jobber.

 

[BooCocky]

If you're referring to people's rebuttal of YOUR post implying Shawn did nothing to further Benjamins career, they're in the right. Shawn wasn't to blame for Bejamin not being a bigger star.

I understand that and I can completely agree with that. Now, Michaels was given one match with the guy and Benjamin didn't come out looking strong. O well, nothing was going to save his career at the time. They gave Benjamin a program with HHH and HHH lost two or three times to Benjamin. Even though the matches weren't nearly as good as his one with Shawn, I strongly believe Benjamin came out looking a little stronger against HHH. You can blame it on him having just one match with HBK, or you can easily blame it on Benjamin being utter shit. I don't know nor do I care.

To stay on topic, like I said earlier I liked Michaels, and to say he hasn't entertained me would be a lie, a big one at that. I see Michaels as an upper mid carder, and there is nothing wrong with that. I just have a slight problem when people consider him the greatest in ring performer of all time. Or they say the GREATEST wrestler of all time. Because that is a lie. He's had a successful career, and I can almost guarantee you that 90% of all wrestlers would love to have a career like Michaels, but I know there are bigger careers.

 

[obiwansidisi]

Ok... ok... I agree completely, Michaels is a wonderful performer, eventhough it's rehash, he does get the crowd on their feet, and that what Vince wants. One of the top 10... I'd put Micheals at #10... but no higher. The Benjamin angle is another arguement for another time, (because I happen to think he got screwed on a number of levels, but that's not up for debate right now) but in relation to Shawn... everyone has their favorites, he's not one of mine... not anymore, but meh... I can see how anyone who be quick to jump on the defense, I'm partial to Ricky Bandaras myself, but that's me...

For this one... yeah Michaels is the man... just not the greatest... ok?