The Official Shawn Michaels Thread
- Thread starter Little Jerry Lawler
- Start date
obiwansidisi
Listenin' to TechN9ne...
*shaking his head* If he’s the best in-ring performer right now than that’s really sad. Hardy & Mysterio can wrestle rings around him, but doesn’t… two reasons:
1. stroke, which keeps Hardy & Mysterio from making him look stupid…
2. The fact that Mysterio is Lucha, and Hardy is a high flyer… HBK wouldn’t even be able to keep up. He does an elbow off the top turnbuckle… that’s all he’s got…
That’s what they did to Cena, when he was dissin’ people in his freestyles. They made him stop rhyming because no one could keep up; he was making them look stupid. When you wrestle Shawn, you do so on Shawn’s footing, at Shawn’s pace, if you can’t see that then you’re not really watching the show. I’m the one who says he’ll be named #1 contender. Put this in your sig, I dare you… If Shawn isn’t named #1 contender, I’ll do an Irish Jig naked in Times Square… but the fact is, he will. Cena can’t lace Shawn’s boots? Shawn can’t lace Shawn’s boots… his back is so damaged that he uses Velcro.
Blue Chipper
Shapeshifting Humanoid
Glad we agree. And, it's arguable that HBK is not the greatest wrestler ever in their primes.hlhbk said:
Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold, The Rock, Randy Savage, Andre The Giant, Ric Flair, Sting, and more
I have never stated that I didn't like HBK and I was in no way bashing him. I think he's one of the top 20 ever, easily. Next, your an obvious HBK mark, which is fine, we all have our personal favorites. I like HBK very much and think he's a terrific performer. Iv'e watched pro-wrestling nearly my entire life, and you see my age.
obiwansidisi
Listenin' to TechN9ne...
No, I agreed with you... it's storyline. A storyline that Shawn has the option of choosing at anytime. Because I don't love Shawn then I have no taste? No, I grew up watching wrestling... AWA, WCCW, UWF, NWA, CZW, IGWP, ECW... the real ECW, but because I won't say that Shawn is the second coming then I have no taste??? Ok... I have no taste... and Amazing Red isn't graceful... Bob Holly didn't pull of the best dropkick ever... The Rock wasn't a God on the mic... Saturn and Kronos wasn't one of the best tag teams ever... Booker T and Stevie Rey don't deserve to be legends... SCSA wasn't bad ass... Benoit didn't have the most perfect German Suplex ever... the Dusty Rhodes/Ric Flair feud wasn't phenominal and Taz and Sabu didn't try to kill each other... that last 20 years was just a dream...
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
You're really going to rip on a guy because he can't keep up with Hardy and Mysterio? The man has had at least 3 major knee injuries and a serious back injury that forced him to retire for a few years. He is one of the men that first introduced a more high-flying style to the United States when he was in the Rockers. I tell you what, you go have 3 major knee surgeries and a serious back injury, and let's see how fast and agile you are afterward. As for wrestling ability, I love both of those guys, but he is at least on par, if not better, than Rey and a much better technician than Jeff.
As for not putting people over, you must be completely insane. He's put Hardy over, like Becca posted he has lost quite frequently at WrestleMania, and he carried the walking turd that is Shelton Benjamin to his best match ever. It's fine that you don't like the guy, but don't let your blind hate distort your view of reality.
obiwansidisi
Listenin' to TechN9ne...
No, I was using Mysterio and Hardy as examples, but the work he did with the Rockers doesn't really compare... AWA repeats on ESPN2, check it out. I don't have a blind hatred for Shawn, never did... I was quite the fan, but I started to see how things go, like my statements or not... go back into the archives... watch the matches... the pattern is there. Yes... he's older, I get that, but you don't see Angle trying to keep up with a guy that can run rings around him. He puts guys over...
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
You can't compare what was going on in the '80s to what they do today. Back then, a moonsault was a big deal. I'm saying that Shawn was an innovator in those days, much like Hardy, Mysterio, and Evan Bourne are today. The stuff he did then had never been in the U.S before.
I can go back in the archives and watch the matches, and when I do, I will see a guy who puts people over and has allowed himself to fall out of the title picture so other people can get a shot. I'll use Chris Jericho as an example. Jericho is considered one of, if not the best heel in the business today. Where did this start? In a feud with, drumroll please, Shawn Michaels! While Shawn did get a win in one of their PPV matches, Michaels put over Jericho and allowed him to win the feud. Saying that Shawn doesn't put people over isn't just wrong, it's completely absurd.
HBK-aholic
Shawn Michaels ❤
Shawn Michaels WWE career has been amazing, and there is no denying that. I absolutely love the guy, and he has NEVER failed to entertain me, no matter what he's doing. His matches are just that amazing, I'm mesmerized as I watch them. He has been involved in some of the best matches of all time, things like this WM 21 encounter with Angle, his WM 19 encounter with Jericho, WM 10 encounter with Ramon.
Not only that, he gave Shelton Benjamin by far his best match ever. A fact which is almost universally agreed on. People ask why Benjamin isn't like that all the time - the answer is Shawn Michaels. He worked with Benjamin, and made him look like absolute gold. Despite coming away with the win, everyone remembers Benjamin having a great match, thanks to Shawn.
He made history by retiring Ric Flair. One of the few matches to make me cry. The emotion in that match has never been matched. It was not a technically sound match - what do you expect when the 2 participants have a combined age of around 100? But no one, and I mean no one could have made that match what it was better than Shawn. The fact he either truly was sorry about what he was doing, or the fact he was just so good a wrestler that I BELIEVED he was upset about it. Everyone in that arena gave a damn about this. This is what I call a great match.
Shawn is great, and when he retires he will be remembered as the best, but it'll be a sad day for the WWE.
Not only that, he gave Shelton Benjamin by far his best match ever. A fact which is almost universally agreed on. People ask why Benjamin isn't like that all the time - the answer is Shawn Michaels. He worked with Benjamin, and made him look like absolute gold. Despite coming away with the win, everyone remembers Benjamin having a great match, thanks to Shawn.
He made history by retiring Ric Flair. One of the few matches to make me cry. The emotion in that match has never been matched. It was not a technically sound match - what do you expect when the 2 participants have a combined age of around 100? But no one, and I mean no one could have made that match what it was better than Shawn. The fact he either truly was sorry about what he was doing, or the fact he was just so good a wrestler that I BELIEVED he was upset about it. Everyone in that arena gave a damn about this. This is what I call a great match.
Shawn is great, and when he retires he will be remembered as the best, but it'll be a sad day for the WWE.
I was always on the fence about Michaels at first I loved him and now I don't. To me he seems like a guy who is there just to pick up a check whenever he needs it. I can not deny that HBK has entertained me for at least fifteen years because if I did I would be lying. I remember KB saying he was a jobber a huge jobber at that, and I believe that to an extent. He's not big enough to be heavyweight champ but he is too large for mid card belts. I always saw him as a stepping stone, especially within the last five years, he worked his butt off to make Benjamin look good, he got pinned cleanly against Jeff and so forth. He was the stepping stone in developing Jericho the last year or so and he made me realize how great JBL was.
I do disagree about Jericho, I can name two better heels, but this isn't about him. I still find HBK to be overrated because his matches are blown way out of proportion, some are good, not great, and most of his MOTY are overrated and I really don't think he's left a huge mark on the industry like his marks claim he has.
I do disagree about Jericho, I can name two better heels, but this isn't about him. I still find HBK to be overrated because his matches are blown way out of proportion, some are good, not great, and most of his MOTY are overrated and I really don't think he's left a huge mark on the industry like his marks claim he has.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
You're pulling out the age card. It's about time somebody did it because I knew it was going to happen sooner or letter. Just to clarify something you erroneously posted, I never said I love Cena. I just tell people who hate Cena why they aren't justified in doing so.
So Hart in his prime wasn't better than HBK in his prime? How about that guy named Hogan or that guy named Flair? I'm sure they would disagree with you.
I'm 21 and older than you. Don't know why that matters but you asked for it.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
Hold on a minute. Are you saying that the only reason Shelton Benjamin isn't great is because he isn't facing HBK because that is just wrong. Benjamin is shit and always has been. He's a horrible worker and horrible in the ring and HBK couldn't even help them. He's had good matches against Chris Jericho and Randy Orton and that was before HBK. Shelton is what he is and that's not because of HBK; it's because of him.
Explain how HBK made history by retiring Ric Flair. I didn't know it was history to retire somebody. I guess HHH made history by retiring Mick Foley in 2000 even though Foley came back. I don't believe HBK should have been the one to retire Flair because that would have been great for a younger superstar to do. Honestly, I haven't missed HBK at all since Wrestlemania and when he retires, I'm not going to stop watching wrestling. I respect the man but I believe he is hugely overrated.
HBK-aholic
Shawn Michaels ❤
I'm saying Shelton had the best match of his career against Shawn. Nothing more, Nothing less. A fact that is rarely argued. The match was very good. A majority of his matches aren't very good. Therefore it logically follows Shawn helped him to the match of his career.Retiring a legend? Of course that's a HUGE deal.
I love how you contradict yourself here. It goes from not meaning much, to "would have been great" if it was someone other than HBK.
Good for you.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
Retiring a legend? Of course that's a HUGE deal.
I love how you contradict yourself here. It goes from not meaning much, to "would have been great" if it was someone other than HBK.
Good for you.
Too bad that match didn't really help Shelton at all. You never even hear about that match anymore. If Shelton were better, than I believe they would reference that match even more. The way Shelton is now, nobody barely remembers his match with HBK.
What I mean by a younger superstar retiring Flair being great is that I would say if a MVP or Kennedy did it, it wouldn't be called making history. I'm just saying did HBK have to be the one to do it and not either one of those two. It would have been great for MVP as for him to say that he retired Ric Flair. I know that Undertaker primarily wants Kane to beat him when he retires but if Vince asks him to lose to somebody like Jack Swagger or The Miz, then I'm sure Taker would do it because he knows how the business goes and what would be best for it.
This is spot on people on this site always claim Cena and Triple H bury every opponent they face and how Shawn Michaels puts guys over and helps there careers well that is 100% false.
Michaels has feuded and supposedly put over guys like Shelton Benjamin, Edge, and Chris Masters and has failed in helping further the careers of all three the only person who has achieved success is Edge and he needed money in the bank to make his career. The guy is also selfish and some matches of his may be great but others seem to be given a less than stellar effort from shawn to say the least.
All his great matches also coincidentally involve great wrestlers Kurt Angle, Triple H, Undertaker, Bret Hart, Chris Jericho, And John Cena to me it's him being brought along for the ride and not the other way around.
I am not going to respond to anyone post but all of them mixed here.
To Little Lawler I am 28, and grew up watching HBK in his prime. Based on your age I can understand why you might not respect Shawn the same way I do. Watching him on tape doesn't not do justice to how great he was back in that time frame.
You people keep talking about how Shelton's match did nothing for Shelton in the long run. Who's fault is that? It certainly isn't HBK's, it's Shelton and managements! The guy comes out of that match looking like gold, looking like he can hang with anyone in the WWE, and look where he is. That is not a reflection on Shawn.
Shawn has jobbed as numerous wrestlemanias since he returned, and has made plenty of young wrestlers look great. If they can't take advantage of it that is their problem. That is the problem with the young wrestlers today, they don't force management to notice them and give them a chance.
When Hogan was on top guys like Shawn and the hitman were having the best matches of the night, so when you left you remembered their performances, not Hogan doing his thing for the 100th time. There is nobody in the WWE except for Randy Orton who is young and has forced management to take notice of their talent. Once guys like HBK, Taker, HHH, Edge (doesn't have that long, has had a lot of injuries), and the reliable stars retire the WWE is in a lot of trouble.
Instead we got a young less talented guy in the ring like Cena who WWE latched onto and is forcing down our throats because they know that once the vets leave they are screwed. I am all for the older guys getting the younger guys ready for when they are gone, but these younger guys need to step up and make management take notice, and nobody is doing that.
So please don't disrespect guys like HHH and HBK because the younger talent doesn't know how to take their opportunities and make the most of it.
Also to anyone who says Cena carried HBK to anything knows nothing about professional wrestling. You name me one match he looked as good as he had vs HBK since they wrestled. You won't find it.
To Little Lawler I am 28, and grew up watching HBK in his prime. Based on your age I can understand why you might not respect Shawn the same way I do. Watching him on tape doesn't not do justice to how great he was back in that time frame.
You people keep talking about how Shelton's match did nothing for Shelton in the long run. Who's fault is that? It certainly isn't HBK's, it's Shelton and managements! The guy comes out of that match looking like gold, looking like he can hang with anyone in the WWE, and look where he is. That is not a reflection on Shawn.
Shawn has jobbed as numerous wrestlemanias since he returned, and has made plenty of young wrestlers look great. If they can't take advantage of it that is their problem. That is the problem with the young wrestlers today, they don't force management to notice them and give them a chance.
When Hogan was on top guys like Shawn and the hitman were having the best matches of the night, so when you left you remembered their performances, not Hogan doing his thing for the 100th time. There is nobody in the WWE except for Randy Orton who is young and has forced management to take notice of their talent. Once guys like HBK, Taker, HHH, Edge (doesn't have that long, has had a lot of injuries), and the reliable stars retire the WWE is in a lot of trouble.
Instead we got a young less talented guy in the ring like Cena who WWE latched onto and is forcing down our throats because they know that once the vets leave they are screwed. I am all for the older guys getting the younger guys ready for when they are gone, but these younger guys need to step up and make management take notice, and nobody is doing that.
So please don't disrespect guys like HHH and HBK because the younger talent doesn't know how to take their opportunities and make the most of it.
Also to anyone who says Cena carried HBK to anything knows nothing about professional wrestling. You name me one match he looked as good as he had vs HBK since they wrestled. You won't find it.
HBK-aholic
Shawn Michaels ❤
This comment is so bad it makes me want to build a time machine so I can go back and tell myself not to read it. How in the world is it Shawn's fault that Benjamin isn't good enough to be a great star? Please, I need your logic on this because I'm completely lost.
Cena has had a match with Benjamin as well, shall we blame Cena for him not being great too? I know, let's put this on every wrestler that Benjamin has ever faced because it couldn't possibly be a fault of Benjamin's.
I wasn't going to post in here, I was just reading the posts. Then I read this. Wow.
Ok, so you think it HBK's fault that Shelton Benjamin didn't get over? You're kidding right? Shelton once beat Triple H. 3 times. And he still wasn't over enough to move higher than the midcard. When Shelton beat Trips, people were cheering. But they were cheering for Triple H losing rather than Shelton winning.
If having 3 victories over Triple H doesn't move your career forward, then there's absolutely no hope for you.
And Chris Masters was awful. You certainly can't blame HBK for Masters not getting over, HBK did make him look good.
Lastly, I'm going to say that different wrestlers get over in different ways. Like you said, Edge didn't get main event level over till he won MitB. Or to be more specific, till he had that feud.
If every young guy who went over HBK suddenly became a huge main event star, then Vince would put alot of guys over HBK. But it's just not that easy, as Mr. Benjamin has quite clearly shown us.
It's well known that Shawn may have had some attitude problems in his earlier days...generally being a bit of an arse but the truth is he has changed his life around and he always seems to be giving back to the business now (a recent example is his feud with Jericho where he allowed Y2J to beat the crap out of him at the Bash and then lost in a ladder match for the World Title at No Mercy). You mentioned how Benjamin, Edge and Masters' careers were not furthered by working with Shawn....but how is that his fault? Working with a performer of Michael's calliber helped all these guys, hell he even put Edge over at the Rumble in 2005 and put on a superb match with Benjamin on Raw (easily Shelton's greatest match in my opinion and it's becuase Shawn helped bring out his best...maybe that's what started all these people hailing Benjamin as the second coming?). So, I would say that in this juncture of his career, Michaels is in fact willing to lay down for others.
I've watching wrestling since 1994. I feel almost the same about Michaels as LJL. What's your excuse for how I feel?
It's actually management's fault for not giving anyone true freedom in the ring or on the stick. But hey, whatever you say.
Yeah, that's why nobody remembers Hogan against the likes of Andre, Savage, Warrior, etc. Nobody wanted to see Hogan's stale act.
WHAT?!
Orton was pegged as the next "guy" since his debut in 2002 and has been repushed many a time after the audience rejected him and ratings PLUNGED when he was the top guy.
Cena got himself over by getting 30 seconds to rap on Halloween in 2002. Lord know where he'd be now if he hadn't taken advantage of that chance. Punk got himself over because of Heyman getting him to debut in front of the right crowd and then having great matches with JoMo on ECW... Orton did NOTHING to force management to look at him. They were always, and still are, thick-headedly trying to make him the guy... and fail at it every time too.
The people choose Cena every night the fans show a startling level of interest in him and keepy buying his merch. He isn't forced down anyone's throat.
Swagger is. Punk has. Cena has. JoMo is. What are you watching?
It's management's fault for booking the young guys the way they do so strictly. If Shawn and the old boys club really gave a damn about the future, they'd express an interest in making new guys. But they don't.
-Cena vs. Swagger
-Cena vs. Jericho at Survivor Series
-Cena vs. Orton at SummerSlam 07 and No Way Out 08
-Cena vs. Triple H at Night of Champions last year
-Cena vs. Big Show on SmackDown before Mania this year
-Cena vs. Hardy before Night of Champions last year
What were you saying?
I think i've seen three people say I said this.t Please show me beacause I never did obviously you and others didn't read my post so your just assuming and guess what you assumed wrong.
I said that people crtitisize Triple H and John Cena for not getting guys over my whole argument was based on the unfairness of that perception. I was just inserting Shawn into it and people have the same reaction as I do.
All I was trying to do was playing the devils advocate so to speak but the flaming and insults towards my post are unwarranted.
That you don't have a good taste in wrestlers?
BS. Its common knowledge that management help the wrestlers lay out a match and tell them how long their matches are, but other than that the wrestlers make up the match to that point. As far as on the mic, are certain things scripted? Sure, but some are not and that is where you must shine.
Yeah, that's why nobody remembers Hogan against the likes of Andre, Savage, Warrior, etc. Nobody wanted to see Hogan's stale act.
Nobody would consider those the best matches of all time. I can think of 100 HBK matches better than those.
Consider all of the times Orton has messed up since he came into the WWE. If he wasn't giving a 5 star performance inside and outside the ring WWE managment would have him at mid card at best.
Um he's forced down mine and a lot of the fans throats that are booing him each and every night. Consider that at Wrestlemania 22 he was supposed to be the baby face when he faced Hunter, and the fans totally turned on him. Yet he still made HHH tap out, and was booed out of the building. How is that not forcing him down our throats?
IF the Smackdown crowd chose him, they should have left him on Smackdown so I am not forced to watch him every week.
Cena was chosen to be forced on us. Punk is talented but doesn't have the "it" factor he needs, and Swagger doesn't impress me.
HHH has put people over at wrestlemania since WM 20 almost each and every year. He tapped to Benoit, made Batista look awesome, tapped to Cena in consecutive Wrestlemanias. Shawn has won twice at Wrestlemania since coming back in 2002, and one of those was against Vince making him look like gold.
So how are they not putting people over again?
None of those matches made Cena look better than his match with Shawn at Wrestlemania and definitely not as good as the one on Raw a few weeks later.
And yet 90% of WWE matches follow a clear cut formula with the heel dominating that limits most talents.
Did you see the pre-Mania Raw script that leaked? Jericho's promos, one of the most trusted mic workers on the roster, were scripted almost word for word.
But I thought at that point in time, Michaels was having the most memorable matches. Yes or no? Don't dodge the point.
Yeah, the idea that politics exist and certain people gain a ton from it is just too out there. Orton must be a great wrestler.
You keep paying and giving him a reaction. You'd be better off giving him the Charlie Haas treatment if you really want him to go away.
They knew he'd be booed going into that match as Jericho, Angle, and Hunter were all unprofessional around that time, putting themself over on the mic and not playing the heel properly. It's not Cena's fault he had to deal with such poor heels.
Benoit and Batista would be the only ones he'd get points for though. He's been booked far too strongly against Orton almost every time they've faced and Orton hasn't gotten a clean one on one win over Hunter on a level playing field. Cena wasn't "put over" really, as he was already over. Saying he put Cena over would be akin to saying Michaels put Taker over. He didn't get put over as he was already there.
And yet none of those men gained anything from it. Cena was well above HBK, Angle was already on his level, and Taker was already on his level. Oh, and Michaels has won at three Mania since 2002.
Point is, they're not making new stars or working with them in any constructive way. Two guys in ten years for Hunter? Pfft. And Shawn is just as bad. Work with Swagger and make him look like a player. Something. Come on guys.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
I never said that it's Shawn's fault that Shelton sucks so don't put words in my mouth. And how do you know I didn't watch Shawn in my prime. If his prime was before he got injured then I did watch him. You lose there again. It's bad when you assume things.
Cena wrestled a damn good match against Lashley three months after HBK and the next month he wrestled another damn good match against Orton. Name a HBK match in which he looked as good as he had vs. Cena. You won't find it.
See what I did there.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
Why don't you list those 100 HBK matches since you are so good at listing everything else?
HHH tapped to Cena at WM 22 but didn't at WM 24. Come on now you're better than this. He did make HBK tap at WM 23 though
Shawn has won three times since coming back at WM. Against Jericho, Vince, and Flair. Tsk...Tsk..Tsk
And when has Orton performed a five-star match other than Cena. HBK couldn't even save him from what HHH did in 2004.
Watch any documentary it shows how the process is done.
Like I sad some things are scripted. When they aren't is when you gotta step up which the young guys don't.
I am not dodging anything. From the time Shawn came in as a Rocker until he finally got to be in the main event he along with others (Bret Hart comes to mind) stole the show each and every night from the main eventers.
Yeah, the idea that politics exist and certain people gain a ton from it is just too out there. Orton must be a great wrestler.
You mean the same politics that keep Cena on top? You can't have it both ways
Let me preface what I am about to say with I have been to a ton of live shows and interacted with Cena during commericals and house shows where I live. I am usually pretty close to the ring and very vocal especially during the quiet time of the shows of my dislike of him. He has totally responded when not on camera to my getting on him during his match. One time he was in a tag match and started jawing at me and did the you can't see me and pointed directly at me. I may not respect his ability in the ring but I do respect he has an obvious love for the wrestling bussiness, and loves interacting with the fans.
That being said it is his job to be the good guy everyone loves and to get people to cheer for him. I boo him because I know that in the end if the majority of the crowd are booing him then he isn't doing his job.
Also I have heard stories that Vince was furious over the way Cena was treated by the ECW fans at ONS 2006. After the F John Cena chants at ONS 2005 I don't know what he expected?
Nice excuse. In case you have forgotten that promo I am talking about with Hunter before a word ever came out of his mouth the fans went nuts when he came out. A heel is supposed to put themselves over on the mic. So yeah one of the greatest heels of all time HHH wasn't doing it properly? Sure, that has to be it.
There are no "points". The numbers are the numbers. Points are for people who don't want to believe in the numbers. Hunter and Shawn have consistently put people over. Also no Cena never was and never will be on Shawn or Hunter's level. They put him over in those matches no doubt about it. Cena gained a ton from it like I said above. I will give you Angle and Taker, but Shawn was also in the match that put Benoit over.
Hunter and Shawn have continually helped the younger guys since WM 20. Randy Orton and Batista never would have gotten to where they did as fast as they did if Hunter and Flair had not chosen them for Evolution. He lost multiple times to Shelton B as well.
As I have documented above Shawn has put over the younger guys tons since coming back. If these younger guys can't take these opportunities and run with them that is there fault. While we are talking about people refusing to do the right thing for the bussiness why exactly did Hogan go over both Shawn and Randy Orton in consecutive years at Summerslam?
