The New Orleans Saints and the morality of the "bounty hunting" program.

[Davi323]

You also mentioned how it goes down to youth football, and I agree, it must begin there. You want to tell kids to go out and hit people as hard as they can? Great. As long as they are CLEAN hits. It is possible to have hits that are both clean and hard, despite what whining defensive players say. So if you want to coach young kids to hit hard, that's perfect. But it stays clean and ends at the whistle. If you coach them beyond that, then the line is crossed.

I was with you until this...I would amend this statement to substitute the word "tackle" for hit. If players grew up knowing how to tackle properly, the NFL would have a much smaller problem with violent hits. The problem is, nobody knows how to tackle anymore. Rather than tackle, they just try to hit you so hard you fall down. It's a completely different league now than it was even 20 years ago.

 

[BaconBits]

So because you played in high school or whatever, like literally thousands of other kids across the country, you have such a deep understanding that no one else has? You don't have to have played a sport in an organized manner to know the basic rules/principles of the game. I'm sure there are some small things that you would know, since you played, as opposed to someone who never played the sport for an organized team.

You do have to have played to understand the mentality of the game. It's a warrior's mentality not unlike the mentality of a fighter of some sort. The players are well aware of the dangers.

With all that said, I don't think anyone on here implied that the Saints were the only ones doing this. I myself said, and I'm pretty sure others did as well, that most teams probably had similar systems. The Saints just happened to be the ones who got caught. Tough luck for them. But even if these systems exist throughout the league, that doesn't make it right. The league still has to do everything it can to eradicate such systems, even if getting rid of them completely may be tough or near impossible. They have to put forth the effort.

I'm not saying the league shouldn't be looking into stopping the practice. I am saying that it shouldn't be a public issue. It reflects badly upon the league, especially when current players are coming out and saying the practice is rampant when asked about it. It makes the league look like the Keystone Coppers.

It's also in the best interests of the NFLPA. As the union, they're tasked with representing the best interests of ALL players. Allowing half of your constituency to have bounties on the other half is not doing your job correctly. You mentioned the lawsuits; if the union wants to get on the league about player safety vis a vis concussions and injuries, they have to do their part as well, and police their membership to make sure one part isn't trying to injure the other part.

The NFLPA doesn't care so much about the on-field actions of it's players. The NFLPA is all about the financial aspect of the game. When it comes to pertinent issues other than a labor disagreement, the NFLPA almost always tows the company line.

And what exactly is Goodell doing that's bad for the game? Giving the public the perception that they run a clean, drug free league with no dirty play and lacking intentions among players to injure one another? Yes, surely the public will hate that.

Much of the public watches the sport out of bloodlust. Guys like Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke and Jack Lambert were "dirty" players (by today's *****fied standards) who murked dues on the regular and are reviled. I also outlined how they look wishy washy in the above passage

You also mentioned how it goes down to youth football, and I agree, it must begin there. You want to tell kids to go out and hit people as hard as they can? Great. As long as they are CLEAN hits. It is possible to have hits that are both clean and hard, despite what whining defensive players say. So if you want to coach young kids to hit hard, that's perfect. But it stays clean and ends at the whistle. If you coach them beyond that, then the line is crossed.

Kids are taught to make clean hits. It's once they move up in level where the instruction strays towards the highlight reel hits. The overwhelming majority of injuries come from hits that are considered clean. A lot of people are completely oblivious to that and what to think it's more sinister.

 

[Davi323]

The NFLPA doesn't care so much about the on-field actions of it's players. The NFLPA is all about the financial aspect of the game. When it comes to pertinent issues other than a labor disagreement, the NFLPA almost always tows the company line.

Bullshit. Even the NFLPA is smart enough to know that it can't have half of it's players going outside of the rules to deliberately injure the other half. Injuries are part of the game, and both the offensive and defensive players know that...but if they allow the defensive players to exceed the boundaries of the game to try to injure the offensive players, there will be a wedge between the two groups. A divided union would be bad for them.

Much of the public watches the sport out of bloodlust. Guys like Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke and Jack Lambert were "dirty" players (by today's *****fied standards) who murked dues on the regular and are reviled. I also outlined how they look wishy washy in the above passage

The rules were different when they played. They still mostly managed to play within the rules, as they existed at the time they played. Today's players have to play by today's rules, not 1968's rules.

 

[Champ1432]

I was with you until this...I would amend this statement to substitute the word "tackle" for hit. If players grew up knowing how to tackle properly, the NFL would have a much smaller problem with violent hits. The problem is, nobody knows how to tackle anymore. Rather than tackle, they just try to hit you so hard you fall down. It's a completely different league now than it was even 20 years ago.

Yeah, "tackle" is what I really meant, honestly. I didn't mean to imply kids should be out there headhunting. Poor choice of words.

You do have to have played to understand the mentality of the game. It's a warrior's mentality not unlike the mentality of a fighter of some sort. The players are well aware of the dangers.



I'm not saying the league shouldn't be looking into stopping the practice. I am saying that it shouldn't be a public issue. It reflects badly upon the league, especially when current players are coming out and saying the practice is rampant when asked about it. It makes the league look like the Keystone Coppers.



The NFLPA doesn't care so much about the on-field actions of it's players. The NFLPA is all about the financial aspect of the game. When it comes to pertinent issues other than a labor disagreement, the NFLPA almost always tows the company line.



Much of the public watches the sport out of bloodlust. Guys like Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke and Jack Lambert were "dirty" players (by today's *****fied standards) who murked dues on the regular and are reviled. I also outlined how they look wishy washy in the above passage


Kids are taught to make clean hits. It's once they move up in level where the instruction strays towards the highlight reel hits. The overwhelming majority of injuries come from hits that are considered clean. A lot of people are completely oblivious to that and what to think it's more sinister.

The NFLPA does get involved with more than financial issues. They're the ones making a lot of noise about concussions, that's definitely an on-field issue.

As to whether or not it should be public, I think it would make the league look worse if we couldn't see what they're doing. If the league tried to cover this up, it would still get out in today's world of 24/7 all-access news. That's what would make them look bad, not attempting to fix problems when they come up. People realize you can't head off every problem ahead of time.

I also don't think everyone watches football with the type of bloodlust you imply. Sure, I like hard-hitting action, and no one wants to watch professional flag football, but that doesn't mean you need concussions and people being carted off the field to make it interesting.

I also disagree that more people get injured on clean hits. I'm not looking up the numbers, but that's ridiculous. It could be true that some injury causing hits didn't draw penalties in the game, but all that means is that the refs missed the call. Injuries are going to happen no matter what, but clean hits help avoid them and are better for everyone.

 

[Minnesota Connection]

The way the Saints stole the NFC Championship game that year was appalling. The way they cheat to get around the salary cap is disgusting. They need to put a big red scarlet letter on their Superbowl trophy because it is and always will be tainted.

Tainted I say.

They have broken the integrity of the game and those involved need to face serious fines, suspensions and maybe even more.

They destroyed Brett Favre so much, he could not return to football. Same with Peyton Manning? That remains to be seen.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

This is dumb. It doesn't give them a competitive advantage. That's....what....they....do. It's their job. If I run a sales office for AT&T, and we sell more phones because I have a better incentive program, how is that bad?

It doesn't hurt the integrity of the game, it's not like they were throwing games. They were just doing what I'd assume every other team in the league does, they were just more organized.

Think about this too, if I'm making 400,000 dollars, which I believe is around the league minimum. There is a bounty for 1,000 dollars. That's 1/4% of my income.

Put it in perspective. I currently work as a manager at a place in the food court. Get a straight 10 dollars an hour but because we aren't a brand name, there is a lot of "sales" involved. I hate to talk people into eating with us. After taxes and working about 30 hours a week, I'm taking home around 12,500 a year. The NFL players have 16 opportunities to get a bounty. 20 if they play the maximum amount of games. So, offering a 1,000 dollar bounty per game would be like offering me a 31.25 dollar bonus every 2 weeks for something that really requires a lot of effort. Sure, that MIGHT give me an incentive every once in a while, but I'm already trying to make sales. It's not so much of a difference that I'm going to do bad things to obtain it. Not only ALL that but it certainly doesn't give me a competitive edge, it's not like we open the store 2 hours early to get sales before anyone else can.

Should the NFL put a stop to this? Probably, no one should get hurt. Should the Saints be singled out? No. I would be willing to be that every team does this in some fashion.

 

[LSN80]

This is dumb. It doesn't give them a competitive advantage. That's....what....they....do. It's their job. If I run a sales office for AT&T, and we sell more phones because I have a better incentive program, how is that bad?

Does your incentive program at AT & T require your salesmen to injure Verizon salesmen or destroy their booths, rendering them less capable of doing their job? You're ignoring that pesky part in the bounty hunting system about players receiving payments for having their opponents carted off the field, or them not being able to return to the game.

So unless your incentive program involves physically injuring your competition purposefully with promises of a payoff, your comparison here is completely invalid.

It doesn't hurt the integrity of the game, it's not like they were throwing games. They were just doing what I'd assume every other team in the league does, they were just more organized.

That's the problem, in a nutshell. You're assuming. Trevor Pryce did state that the players on teams he played for had programs such as this, but this is the first time we've ever heard about an employer sponsering a program. It does hurt the integrity of the game when an employer is offerring a system for their employees to hurt others.

It's a lesser wrong when the players police it themselves. When employers are sponsering a program like this, it's criminal.

Think about this too, if I'm making 400,000 dollars, which I believe is around the league minimum. There is a bounty for 1,000 dollars. That's 1/4% of my income.

It has little to do with the money involved, and everything to do with the fact that it not only violates league rules, but it provides incentives for purposefully injuring another human being. Football is dangerous enough without intentional attempts to injure, wouldn't you say? Adding that element makes it downright scary. I know, the athletes know and feel the inherent risks of being injured when they sign up to play.

But they didn't sign up to be have bullseyes painted on their backs so that a player making hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars could make an extra grand.

The NFL players have 16 opportunities to get a bounty. 20 if they play the maximum amount of games. So, offering a 1,000 dollar bounty per game would be like offering me a 31.25 dollar bonus every 2 weeks for something that really requires a lot of effort. Sure, that MIGHT give me an incentive every once in a while, but I'm already trying to make sales. It's not so much of a difference that I'm going to do bad things to obtain it.

Again, another flawed example. It doesn't matter what the incentive is, it matters what the program is about. You're not going to do bad things to obtain a small bonus, you say. Fair enough. The problem? The Saints were offerring these small bonuses for their players to do "bad things" to others. Huge difference.

Should the NFL put a stop to this? Probably, no one should get hurt. Should the Saints be singled out? No. I would be willing to be that every team does this in some fashion.

How else do they put a stop to this then.....singling out the Saints? They were the ones who got caught, with admissions from their coaches, GM, and owner. Can that be said of any other team? No. So how do you put a stop to it? You make an example of the people who got caught. In this case, it's the New Orleans Saints. It's not singling them out when they're the only ones who've been caught.

 

[GI Cake]

How rampant do you believe a "bounty hunter" system is in the NFL? How much of it do you believe is simply player driven as compared to employer driven?

I don't have access nor, do I personally know anyone in the NFL that can give me insight into the NFL Locker rooms. So I can't honestly say which teams do and don't have a bounty hunter system in place. Common guesses would be hard hitting teams like the Ravens and Steelers would have some sort of bounty hunting program. But like I said before, I can't give an honest opinion on if they do or don't. I just hope they don't.

Is this a great motivational tool, or is it the corruption of employees by employers?

The men in the NFL are paid quite a large sum in the NFL to play a child's game like Football. Most of them come from backgrounds where they normally were not exposed to that kind of money. So naturally some of the players in the NFL will create bounty systems to brag and gloat about their hard hits, and to take out steam on players they don't like.

But that is not an excuse, It is disgusting someone would pay a player to go out of their way to injure and ruin the career of another player in what is suppose to be just a sport.

How do you decide discipline in such matters, if you're the NFL? How do you punish Gregg Williams, Sean Peyton, and the New Orleans organization as a whole?

It is hard to say how the punishment should be carried out. Naturally you want to fine the players who accepted the money and had set up the bounty system. But can you punish the coaches and the managers for something their players set up off the field? Maybe if Sean Peyton and Gregg Williams had information that their players were running a bounty system, then they could have grounds for punishment. But that is something you can easily deny .

Am I going overboard on the morality issues of this case in calling them criminal?

I wouldn't go as far as to say they're criminals. But they are not by any means Angels. Their have always been players that have went out of their way to hurt others in Football, that is just a common evil we all have to deal with. But the NFL board can do their best to correct this and make an example out of the Saints. Then hopefully players from other teams would drop the bounty hunter system.