The Lilypad

[Shotaro]

That's pretty much bullshit. Saboteur ended Ty's undefeated streak and towards the end of his run he was in the World Title picture and many feel (including myself) he or Vega should have won the title instead of Ricky Runn retaining. Nothing against Runn, I'm a mark for him, but in that match there's many people who feel Saboteur should have won that match based on the RPs. He was a top tier RPer anytime he wanted to be but was more about fun than titles. He obviously would have won the World Title had he stayed around.

Saxton on the other hand came in right after Alhazred at a completely different time for the fed. He and I were completely out of the box compared to what was the standard around here. He more so than me because I followed the Lee form of RPing but just took that and went outside the box and then got into the tag division, Doc on the other had never mentioned his opponents and just told amazing, funny stories, which again was something no one was used to. For a while Saxton was writing brilliant RPs but not getting noticed because he never mentioned his opponents despite having better RPs than most of his opponents. Saxton is like the Foley of WZCW, he doesn't have all the accomplishments that Ty or Showtime do but he is easily the most popular character of all time. That alone deserves him a spot in the HoF and he too could have easily won the World Title had he stuck around.

Not to mention how influential both guys were in changing how RPs are done around here. Rather than your boring talk shit about your opponent with Leon interview everyone was doing and used to, they said fuck that and just had fun. Read the last round of RPs and compare those to the Redemption cycle when Saxton first appeared and you can see the effect Saxoteur had on the entire fed.

Were they influential? Absolutely. I would argue in terms of influence it's hard to think of any others who had such an impact as the two of them when they joined forces and they are absolutely deserving of a place in the Hall of Fame. I am simply putting across the counterpoint that they were at their best when they were teaming together. At no point did I dispute their worthiness of HoF status nor their popularity, only that the thing that was really special about Action Saxton and Saboteur was their work together.

 

[Shotaro]

Your Vega comments make my head scratch, bud. Mainly because that's exactly what happened kayfabe wise to Vega. He didn't do much at all out of the Mayhem scene. Granted, he was put up against top notch competition, but your comparison to Holly and Snow doesn't translate very well.

Apologies, in terms of Vega my memory let me down. I do think that his main event push came far too fast and it hurt him big time. He went from winning every week to losing about 6 on the bounce and you could see from the guys RPs that he was just not having fun anymore, then he left.

Honestly Vega is a case where creative dun goofed and pushed him too fast. He needed to see and defeat the guys who were outside of the mayhem division for a while before shoving him into a main event feud. I know it wasn't necessarily what HE wanted but that is what should have happened.

 

[Kermit]

Apologies, in terms of Vega my memory let me down. I do think that his main event push came far too fast and it hurt him big time. He went from winning every week to losing about 6 on the bounce and you could see from the guys RPs that he was just not having fun anymore, then he left.

Honestly Vega is a case where creative dun goofed and pushed him too fast. He needed to see and defeat the guys who were outside of the mayhem division for a while before shoving him into a main event feud. I know it wasn't necessarily what HE wanted but that is what should have happened.

I hear you. I think you are right in that regard of him ascending to face the top tier talent too fast. However, I think it was the hardcore special and his desire to be in the main-event that caused the premature trigger. He beat Red Mask to retire the Mayhem Title, so I think we all thought he would do fine. I don't think he actually got killed in all of his matches in terms of RPing, but he did lose almost all of the big ones.

With that being said, he also stayed in the Mayhem Division for far too long. He was clearly above it and by result elevated the title's prestige because he wouldn't drop the dang thing. My memory is a little rusty, but I think he refused a couple times to abandon the title, so that's on him. He got to retire a belt and end up being king of the Mayhem division, but it cost him the time he could have prepared for the main-event by picking off a character or two in the upper-card.

 

[FlexAmerican Dynamite]

X, Vega, Saboteur, and even SHIT for the one round he was almost pushed into the title picture suffered from not being able to step up or just burned out. Unfortunately it's all a timing thing. Their downfalls caused other's like Tastic and Runn to rise.

 

[Kermit]

X, Vega, Saboteur, and even SHIT for the one round he was almost pushed into the title picture suffered from not being able to step up or just burned out. Unfortunately it's all a timing thing. Their downfalls caused other's like Tastic and Runn to rise.

For this reason, I honestly wouldn't mind a gimmick RP every year like Gold Rush (or keep Gold Rush as our KOTR) where there is a multiple participant opportunity at a world title shot. Between that, LL, and KFAD there will be three separate opportunities for characters to win a world title shot. In my eyes it helps the concept of giving people chances and consistently pumping new blood into the title scene.

That's a step in the right direction of shifting the guilt of being "too little too late" from the Creative team on a push to having characters/members be more responsible for not making it to the top.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

haha you said pumping

 

[Thriller Ant]

For this reason, I honestly wouldn't mind a gimmick RP every year like Gold Rush (or keep Gold Rush as our KOTR) where there is a multiple participant opportunity at a world title shot. Between that, LL, and KFAD there will be three separate opportunities for characters to win a world title shot. In my eyes it helps the concept of giving people chances and consistently pumping new blood into the title scene.

That's a step in the right direction of shifting the guilt of being "too little too late" from the Creative team on a push to having characters/members be more responsible for not making it to the top.

The thing that I think gets forgotten a lot is the opposite of this: the guy who has one hot PPV cycle or couple of rounds, gets pushed because of it, and never lives up to it again.

I know that he was in the Mayhem division too long, but Vega would be a good example of this. He built up his rep in the Mayhem division, but once he moved up, he never got back to that level. My character Phoenix would be another. I had a couple good rounds after I beat Garth Black when our team broke up and that lead to a good run in the Gold Rush Gordito won, but, if I'm being honest, I never wrote anything close to that level again. I looked like a main eventer for a minute, but wrote at a meh-midcard level from there on.

 

[red ass skull muhfukkah]

only that the thing that was really special about Action Saxton and Saboteur was their work together.

Again, bullshit. Pre Saxoteur both were fucking awesome. They didn't win titles or have giant feuds but on a week to week basis Saxton had the most consistently entertaining RPs and Saboteur was right behind him when he came in. Saying they did nothing special until they worked together shows you didn't get what they were about. It wasn't about accomplishments and titles and feuds because they weren't gonna get them anyway. It was about fun. When I first came in the fed was entirely competitive and based on wins and losses and blah blah blah and very few were doing it just because it was fun, Saxton was all about fun. Saxton was easily the most popular character before he worked with Saboteur and Saboteur was one of the most over characters before working with Saxton, again ending Ty's massive undefeated streak. If they never worked together I would still put Saxton in my top 5 all time and many others would too and Saboteur would have become a massive part of the Main Event scene had he stuck around, with or without Saxoteur.

 

[FlexAmerican Dynamite]

I think the problem is that none of the previously mentioned guys (besides maybe SHIT) were writing top notch RPs prior to their shot in the main event, they were more so just being pushed off name value and the fact that people kept complaining.

 

[Kermit]

I think the problem is that none of the previously mentioned guys (besides maybe SHIT) were writing top notch RPs prior to their shot in the main event, they were more so just being pushed off name value and the fact that people kept complaining.

Which guys are you talking about?

 

[FlexAmerican Dynamite]

Which guys are you talking about?

After his Mayhem run and even prior Vega struggled against anyone in the main event not named Titus. I believe he struggled against Saboteur as well yet was still given a title shot.

Saboteur wasn't quite the same after Saxton left, he beat Vega but he wasn't blowing anyone away at the time.

X beat SHIT to get a title shot but unfortunately struggled to put out consistent work that cycle until he left.

All three were guys who were pushed because there was really nothing left for them in other positions/lack of world title challengers, not because their ability at the time.

 

[Shotaro]

Again, bullshit. Pre Saxoteur both were fucking awesome. They didn't win titles or have giant feuds but on a week to week basis Saxton had the most consistently entertaining RPs and Saboteur was right behind him when he came in. Saying they did nothing special until they worked together shows you didn't get what they were about. It wasn't about accomplishments and titles and feuds because they weren't gonna get them anyway. It was about fun. When I first came in the fed was entirely competitive and based on wins and losses and blah blah blah and very few were doing it just because it was fun, Saxton was all about fun. Saxton was easily the most popular character before he worked with Saboteur and Saboteur was one of the most over characters before working with Saxton, again ending Ty's massive undefeated streak. If they never worked together I would still put Saxton in my top 5 all time and many others would too and Saboteur would have become a massive part of the Main Event scene had he stuck around, with or without Saxoteur.

Jesus Christ man who pissed in your Cheerios? It's pretty clear we don't agree on this and this seems to be about two sentences away from AdHominem attacks. Our opinions are different. Let's just leave it there and leave it civil shall we?

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Nobody pissed in Red Skull's Cheerios, he's just providing a counter argument to what you were saying that's making for some great discussion... which, by the way, between this thread and the Interactive one, have been very interesting to read. Great stuff guys.

 

[red ass skull muhfukkah]

Jesus Christ man who pissed in your Cheerios? It's pretty clear we don't agree on this and this seems to be about two sentences away from AdHominem attacks. Our opinions are different. Let's just leave it there and leave it civil shall we?

Fair enough, sir. I still love you.

Also I had French Toast Crunch Cereal today and my son knocked it over.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Oh shit, I totally forgot French Toast Crunch is back. Gotta step up my cereal game.

 

[red ass skull muhfukkah]

Oh shit, I totally forgot French Toast Crunch is back. Gotta step up my cereal game.

I bought three boxes when I first saw it. I work at a grocery store and a friend and I have been ordering cases for ourselves and hiding them.

 

[Kermit]

After his Mayhem run and even prior Vega struggled against anyone in the main event not named Titus. I believe he struggled against Saboteur as well yet was still given a title shot.

Saboteur wasn't quite the same after Saxton left, he beat Vega but he wasn't blowing anyone away at the time.

X beat SHIT to get a title shot but unfortunately struggled to put out consistent work that cycle until he left.

All three were guys who were pushed because there was really nothing left for them in other positions/lack of world title challengers, not because their ability at the time.

Man, that's a stretch for me to say they were not writing top notch RPs before their shots. Vega, Saboteur, and Triple X were all writing high-quality stuff. The problem is with Vega and Triple X is that their pushes were planned, but took awhile to execute. So their pushes were based off their prime success in a post-prime state. Their RPs definitely warranted a title shot, but they ran out of gas.

Nobody pissed in Red Skull's Cheerios, he's just providing a counter argument to what you were saying that's making for some great discussion... which, by the way, between this thread and the Interactive one, have been very interesting to read. Great stuff guys.

I'm going to start a subscription service.

 

[Kermit]

Oh shit, I totally forgot French Toast Crunch is back. Gotta step up my cereal game.

I bought three boxes when I first saw it. I work at a grocery store and a friend and I have been ordering cases for ourselves and hiding them.

Thanks, jerks. Now I want some Honeycombs.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Some guys its hard to strike while the iron is hot.

Like I'll use myself as an example. I had a pretty good stretch run where in a span of a couple of rounds I beat Barbosa, won the EA title, successfully defended it, then beat Showtime twice after dropping it, but I ran out of gas when I got my push into the main event scene.

Believe me, its hard to be hot for a time then cool off. Like real talk, if I wasn't next in line to be HoC, I was so bummed after my loss to Ty at KC that I wanted to take time off. I hate to see it, but I understand why guys fizzle out when they near the top.

 

[Kermit]

Some guys its hard to strike while the iron is hot.

Like I'll use myself as an example. I had a pretty good stretch run where in a span of a couple of rounds I beat Barbosa, won the EA title, successfully defended it, then beat Showtime twice after dropping it, but I ran out of gas when I got my push into the main event scene.

Believe me, its hard to be hot for a time then cool off. Like real talk, if I wasn't next in line to be HoC, I was so bummed after my loss to Ty at KC that I wanted to take time off. I hate to see it, but I understand why guys fizzle out when they near the top.

Been there as well. Stuff like this is what makes Ty's year long reign/undefeated streak all the more impressive.

 

[FlexAmerican Dynamite]

Man, that's a stretch for me to say they were not writing top notch RPs before their shots. Vega, Saboteur, and Triple X were all writing high-quality stuff. The problem is with Vega and Triple X is that their pushes were planned, but took awhile to execute. So their pushes were based off their prime success in a post-prime state. Their RPs definitely warranted a title shot, but they ran out of gas.

I think the amount of time they spent in the mid-card warranted them a title shot, but honestly at the time not much else, all three were beginning to fade. SHIT challenging Runn instead of a lackluster cycle of Runn/X/ECD was a much better story coming off of Barbosa's exit.

 

[Miko]

The thing that I think gets forgotten a lot is the opposite of this: the guy who has one hot PPV cycle or couple of rounds, gets pushed because of it, and never lives up to it again.

I know that he was in the Mayhem division too long, but Vega would be a good example of this. He built up his rep in the Mayhem division, but once he moved up, he never got back to that level. My character Phoenix would be another. I had a couple good rounds after I beat Garth Black when our team broke up and that lead to a good run in the Gold Rush Gordito won, but, if I'm being honest, I never wrote anything close to that level again. I looked like a main eventer for a minute, but wrote at a meh-midcard level from there on.

I made this point about Constantine pushing himself up to the ME again, he's a consistent performer who's often had to back seat for people who've gone white hot for a cycle or two. I guess its hard to know when to act and when not too, which is why I stay much quieter about these things than I used too.

 

[Miko]

X, Vega, Saboteur, and even SHIT for the one round he was almost pushed into the title picture suffered from not being able to step up or just burned out. Unfortunately it's all a timing thing. Their downfalls caused other's like Tastic and Runn to rise.

Yep. Mine just came at the worst possible time, which happened all too often over the previous couple of years.

I think the problem is that none of the previously mentioned guys (besides maybe SHIT) were writing top notch RPs prior to their shot in the main event, they were more so just being pushed off name value and the fact that people kept complaining.

You're too kind

Some guys its hard to strike while the iron is hot.

Like I'll use myself as an example. I had a pretty good stretch run where in a span of a couple of rounds I beat Barbosa, won the EA title, successfully defended it, then beat Showtime twice after dropping it, but I ran out of gas when I got my push into the main event scene.

Believe me, its hard to be hot for a time then cool off. Like real talk, if I wasn't next in line to be HoC, I was so bummed after my loss to Ty at KC that I wanted to take time off. I hate to see it, but I understand why guys fizzle out when they near the top.

Kind of sucks the life out of you, doesn't it? Like, what do I have to do? There were a lot of issues I had when I left, as people know, but sucking up certain losses can push you over the edge if you are determined to grit it out, regardless.

I think the amount of time they spent in the mid-card warranted them a title shot, but honestly at the time not much else, all three were beginning to fade. SHIT challenging Runn instead of a lackluster cycle of Runn/X/ECD was a much better story coming off of Barbosa's exit.

A major factor in me deciding to return, unfinished business and all that jazz.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I made this point about Constantine pushing himself up to the ME again, he's a consistent performer who's often had to back seat for people who've gone white hot for a cycle or two. I guess its hard to know when to act and when not too, which is why I stay much quieter about these things than I used too.

At the risk of sounding like I'm kissing your ass, this is one think I've always appreciated about you, especially in the fed. You are always very level-headed about when you are on the card and the fed as a whole, which gives the Creative team much more flexibility with you and your character. S.H.I.T. definitely deserves a sustained run at the top, but it's so refreshing to know that we can put you in the midcard and that you won't bitch and will do what it takes to make it the best you can.

 

[Dave]

I personally can't wait for the S.H.I.T versus Constantine rematch. Be it in the main event or lower down the card, that has money written all over it.