The Irish / British Conflicts

[Uncle Sam]

Recently - very recently, as a matter of fact - one of our supposedly responsible administrators and a fellow member teamed up under the name "BOOM is an understatement". Apparently, the name was meant to be "Irish-Canadian car bombs" and the aforementioned name was simply meant to be their slogan.

As a British citizen who was born and raised in Britain and is immensely proud in British history, I find these names incredibly offensive. Recently, unarmed British soldiers were murdered as they left their compound in Northern Ireland, collecting a pizza. Other murders and incidents have also taken place, the Provisional IRA and "Real" IRA taking responsibility.

It is therefore my understanding that IrishCanadian simply did not understand how close this was to the hearts of many British people, and how real violent Irish nationalism is to the British people, who have had to endure it for centuries. We're not talking about soldiers here - we're talking about innocent British (and Irish) civilians.

Am I being unreasonable?

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Not at all Sam, not at all. But it's to be expected. Our Irish slash Canadian admin is actually American, I wouldn't expect him to know what's going on ouside of his little bubble. I'm more upset with Polley, he's from the bottom Ireland isn't he? Whatever, he should know better.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Since Uncle Sam and Jake have brought up the "offensive nature" of the team name selected by Polley and I in the posters Tag Tournament, I think it's high time I acted on a long-time desire to bring the topic of the centuries-long Irish / British conflict to this forum.

This entire forum is populated by numerous members either from Ireland or the UK, or existing in its heritage, such as myself. I do identify very heavily with my Irish background, though I also have some British as well.

The conflicts, and as a result the IRA (Irish-Republican Army), ICA (Irish-Citizen Army), and IRB (Irish-Republican Brotherhood), are the direct result of borderline tyrannical British Rule over the nation of Ireland for much of the 17th and 18th centuries, and beyond. It is a set of circumstances similar to that which led to the United States of America's revolution against the same form of empirical rule.

Through the division caused by the issue of "Home Rule," which was to give the Irish counties more independent government, violence and conflict resulted. While the Northern Irish counties, made up largely of protestants, sought some form of independence, it was tempered by the fear of a government with a heavy Catholic majority. The Southern Counties, made up mainly of Catholics, did not wish to make a compromise, simply seeking the UK leaving Ireland and leaving them independent. This is a crusade of Irish people even today, and the banners "Britain Out Of Ireland" can be seen in heavy numbers around the streets of New York City every year at the St. Patricks Day Parade.

One of the great heros in Irish history was a man who led the ICA, James Connoly. With members of the British and Northern Irish forces violently locking out the unions of the Southern Irish labourers, Connoly led several revolts, including the famous "Easter Rising." UK forces executed Connoly by firing squad for his involvement in the revolution.

Connolly was sentenced to death by firing squad for his part in the rising. On 12 May 1916 he was transported by military ambulance to Kilmainham Jail, carried to a prison courtyard on a stretcher, tied to a chair and shot. His body (along with those of the other rebels) was put in a mass grave without a coffin. The executions of the rebels deeply angered the majority of the Irish population, most of whom had shown no support during the rebellion. It was Connolly's execution, however, that caused the most controversy. Historians have pointed to the actions of Connolly and similar rebels, as well as the manner of their execution as being factors that caused public awareness of their desires and goals, as well as gathering support for the movements that they had died fighting for.

Then, in the 1960's "The Troubles" began, and new history-shaping events began to unfold. The Sinn Fein, The IRA, The Ulster Unionist Party, etc. rose to some form of power and influence, and many deaths occured.

On January 30th, 1972, twenty-seven civil rights protesters marched in Derry, Northern Ireland. They were unarmed by every eyewitness account. Well, on that day, members of the 1st Battalion of the British Parachute Regiment shot and killed 13 of them, while a 14th died 4 months later due to injuries. Of the 13 killed instantly, seven of them were teenagers. Five were shot in the back. The U2 song "Sunday, Bloody Sunday" commemorates and details the events of this horrid day.

An account of one of the deceased:

John (Jackie) Duddy (17). Shot in the chest in the car park of Rossville flats. Four witnesses stated Duddy was unarmed and running away from the paratroopers when he was killed. Three of them saw a soldier take deliberate aim at the youth as he ran. Uncle of Irish boxer John Duddy.

So while people may be offended by the name "BOOM is an understatement" and "Irish-Canadian Car Bombs," I have to ask - should I be concerned?

Editor's Note - This is not intended to start a fight between myself and several members of these boards from the UK, most notably Sam, Jake, Luther, and Lee, all of whom I consider e-friends. But it's worth discussing, because the history of my people and my heritage really gets my blood boiling.

 

[Uncle Sam]

So you're intending to start a fight, I see.

The conflicts, and as a result the IRA (Irish-Republican Army), ICA (Irish-Citizen Army), and IRB (Irish-Republican Brotherhood), are the direct result of borderline tyrannical British Rule over the nation of Ireland for much of the 17th and 18th centuries, and beyond. It is a set of circumstances similar to that which led to the United States of America's revolution against the same form of empirical rule.

"Borderline tyrannical" is a very extreme way to put it. A very extreme way, indeed. Although we took the piss a bit, Ireland blossomed as part of the British Empire, thanks to economic and political links it could not have otherwise had.

Contrary to popular opinion, early resistance against British rule was lead by a small number of largely uneducated Irish romantics, unaware of the repercussions of their actions. However, as nationalism become a vote winner, Irish politicians put it upon themselves to become involved.

In fact, in the early days the most opposition stemmed from us having a loose grip on Ireland rather than a strong grip. The potato blight is blamed on a British disinterest in Ireland.

Britain then made every effort to appease Ireland. Issues such as land and self-government were addressed with bills that were rejected either by Irish MPs in the House of Commons, or stubborn Conservative unionists in the House of Lords.

Otherwise, it was the Irish people that were - and I mean this in a serious way - pissing themselves off. As a large number of the nation adopted English mannerisms and culture, there was a backlash among nationalists who wanted to keep their own ways.

Again, efforts were made to appease them by the English. Most notably, the Protestant church was disestablished as the official Church of Ireland.

The American question is a matter for another time, but I have some things to say on that as well.

Through the division caused by the issue of "Home Rule," which was to give the Irish counties more independent government, violence and conflict resulted. While the Northern Irish counties, made up largely of protestants, sought some form of independence, it was tempered by the fear of a government with a heavy Catholic majority.

I'd argue that it was also due to their fondness of English culture, which they had readily adopted, as well as the growth of industry and general prosperity in the region.

The Southern Counties, made up mainly of Catholics, did not wish to make a compromise, simply seeking the UK leaving Ireland and leaving them independent. This is a crusade of Irish people even today, and the banners "Britain Out Of Ireland" can be seen in heavy numbers around the streets of New York City every year at the St. Patricks Day Parade.

Unfortunately, due to the highly segmented nature of Irish politics makes that improbable. Do you know the electoral system they use in Northern Ireland? Let's just say it's really complicated.

One of the great heros in Irish history was a man who led the ICA, James Connoly. With members of the British and Northern Irish forces violently locking out the unions of the Southern Irish labourers, Connoly led several revolts, including the famous "Easter Rising." UK forces executed Connoly by firing squad for his involvement in the revolution.

The Easter Rising was a few hundred guys that claimed a Post Office. It failed because the Irish people were satisfied with Home Rule. It was the British overreaction that makes it of any relevance. It was a farce. Executions at the time were commonplace.

Then, in the 1960's "The Troubles" began, and new history-shaping events began to unfold. The Sinn Fein, The IRA, The Ulster Unionist Party, etc. rose to some form of power and influence, and many deaths occured.

Actually, Sinn Fein and the IRA rose to prominence in the first half of the twentieth century. The Easter Rising took place soon after a general acceptance of Home Rule had been created, causing a massive growth in nationalist feeling in Ireland. Sinn Fein then won an Irish majority in the general election and refused to sit in Westminster, then refused to sit in the Irish Parliament created for them.

On January 30th, 1972, twenty-seven civil rights protesters marched in Derry, Northern Ireland. They were unarmed by every eyewitness account. Well, on that day, members of the 1st Battalion of the British Parachute Regiment shot and killed 13 of them, while a 14th died 4 months later due to injuries. Of the 13 killed instantly, seven of them were teenagers. Five were shot in the back. The U2 song "Sunday, Bloody Sunday" commemorates and details the events of this horrid day.

The amount of Bloody Sundays are unreal. Wikipedia says the first took place in 1887.

So while people may be offended by the name "BOOM is an understatement" and "Irish-Canadian Car Bombs," I have to ask - should I be concerned?

Very much so.

Editor's Note - This is not intended to start a fight between myself and several members of these boards from the UK, most notably Sam, Jake, Luther, and Lee, all of whom I consider e-friends. But it's worth discussing, because the history of my people and my heritage really gets my blood boiling.

The UK includes Northern Ireland. Remember that.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Recently - very recently, as a matter of fact - one of our supposedly responsible administrators and a fellow member teamed up under the name "BOOM is an understatement". Apparently, the name was meant to be "Irish-Canadian car bombs" and the aforementioned name was simply meant to be their slogan.

Confirmed. Although I am quite responsible.

As a British citizen who was born and raised in Britain and is immensely proud in British history, I find these names incredibly offensive. Recently, unarmed British soldiers were murdered as they left their compound in Northern Ireland, collecting a pizza. Other murders and incidents have also taken place, the Provisional IRA and "Real" IRA taking responsibility.

Yep, been that way for a long time now. Lack of freedom will do that to some people. Of course I do prefer military targets and feel civilians should be left out of it. At least the unarmed soldiers were military personell - not unarmed teenaged protesters.

It is therefore my understanding that IrishCanadian simply did not understand how close this was to the hearts of many British people, and how real violent Irish nationalism is to the British people, who have had to endure it for centuries. We're not talking about soldiers here - we're talking about innocent British (and Irish) civilians.

Am I being unreasonable?

What about how close to my heart the centuries of oppression is? The banning of our unions? The squalor that Southern Irish Catholics had to endure for not "falling in line" with the desires of the UK? Britain would not have had to endure an ounce of violence from the Irish had they just laid down this imperialism that has shaped their existance since the days of the Romans.

Am I being unreasonable?

 

[Uncle Sam]

Yep, been that way for a long time now. Lack of freedom will do that to some people. Of course I do prefer military targets and feel civilians should be left out of it. At least the unarmed soldiers were military personell - not unarmed teenaged protesters.

Well, obviously. However, that was a small group of soldiers that were not part of a larger ideological group that thought killing civilians was an OK thing to do.

What about how close to my heart the centuries of oppression is?

Oppression is a harsh word, if not wholly inaccurate. Personally, as proud as I am of the great Britons, I'm completely emotionally detached from any events that took place in the past.

The banning of our unions? The squalor that Southern Irish Catholics had to endure for not "falling in line" with the desires of the UK? Britain would not have had to endure an ounce of violence from the Irish had they just laid down this imperialism that has shaped their existance since the days of the Romans.

If the Irish expected the British to just go "Yeah, fair enough. Have fun, kids" then they really weren't very intelligent. Instead, they should have been satisfied with the offers of land reform and Home Rule. For a time, they were.

That is until Sinn Fein saw the opportunity to capitalise on the Easter Rising, and then compounded their popularity with the introduction of conscription for Ireland for World War 1.

Am I being unreasonable?

Yep. I think you're falling prey to the same romanticism that the early rebels did. I'm by no means suggesting that the British hands are clean - or even cleaner than those of the Irish.

I am, however, saying the British government weren't these evil villains that rule with an iron fist. As a matter of fact, some ministers made it their primary ambition to console the Irish people.

British politicians made real concessions for Ireland when they wouldn't necessarily politically benefit from it. They ended the injustice that landlords in Ireland had set upon their tenants, they even granted Home Rule.

If it wasn't for the first world war, all that would have been a footnote.

The thing I have a problem with is that, decades after the so-called "Irish question" has been settled, extremists are kicking up again and killing people for no good reason.

 

[Dave]

As a British citizen, when I saw the name I never really thought much about, it never bothered me and I certainly didn't feel offended. Even now when the issue has been raised, I still don't feel offended by it. I don't know why but I'm just not that bothered.

Also, I think that there is many more things on the internet that are more offensive than that name. I'm a pretty laid back guy so offending me is pretty hard but I can totally appreciate where everyone is coming from. I just don't let things like this bother me and neither should anyone else.

 

[The Hiphopapotamus]

So you're intending to start a fight, I see..

And I intend to join...

"Borderline tyrannical" is a very extreme way to put it. A very extreme way, indeed. Although we took the piss a bit, Ireland blossomed as part of the British Empire, thanks to economic and political links it could not have otherwise had..

No, blossomed is a very extreme way of putting it.I fail to see how poverty,opression and loss of freedom to practice religion is blossoming.You do know catholicism became illegal.I bring you bacl to the plantations,where Catholics in leinster were forced to travel and live in the worst lands in Ireland,Connaught,or face death.The saying was "To hell or to Connaught".

Contrary to popular opinion, early resistance against British rule was lead by a small number of largely uneducated Irish romantics, unaware of the repercussions of their actions. However, as nationalism become a vote winner, Irish politicians put it upon themselves to become involved..

It became the vote winner to become independent,as a country.Hmm,that makes sense.In order to become independent,as a country,they need to want to,to become nationalist,which is the same thing.

In fact, in the early days the most opposition stemmed from us having a loose grip on Ireland rather than a strong grip. The potato blight is blamed on a British disinterest in Ireland..

No,it's blamed on the British taking Irish food during the famine.Greedy.

Britain then made every effort to appease Ireland. Issues such as land and self-government were addressed with bills that were rejected either by Irish MPs in the House of Commons, or stubborn Conservative unionists in the House of Lords..

So you agree they were rejected by the British.

Otherwise, it was the Irish people that were - and I mean this in a serious way - pissing themselves off. As a large number of the nation adopted English mannerisms and culture, there was a backlash among nationalists who wanted to keep their own ways..

These mannerisms were forced,which would generate obvious backlash.Ireland was a colony,and like all colonies they developed the language and mannerisms of their colonial powers,not by choice.

Again, efforts were made to appease them by the English. Most notably, the Protestant church was disestablished as the official Church of Ireland..

And who established it in the first place...

I'd argue that it was also due to their fondness of English culture, which they had readily adopted, as well as the growth of industry and general prosperity in the region..

Not adopted,more forced.They did what they needed to survive.But when their religion is illegal,that is not fondness.

Unfortunately, due to the highly segmented nature of Irish politics makes that improbable. Do you know the electoral system they use in Northern Ireland? Let's just say it's really complicated..

Gerrymandering(the drawing of electoral lines in such places to give a certain party an advantage) was used to give unionists power in Catholic majorities,such as Derry city.This made sure Unionists always stayed in power.

The Easter Rising was a few hundred guys that claimed a Post Office. It failed because the Irish people were satisfied with Home Rule. It was the British overreaction that makes it of any relevance. It was a farce. Executions at the time were commonplace..

They also claimed a mill and the four courts.It's being made into a museum you know.The british did overreact with a huge gunship that is.

Actually, Sinn Fein and the IRA rose to prominence in the first half of the twentieth century. The Easter Rising took place soon after a general acceptance of Home Rule had been created, causing a massive growth in nationalist feeling in Ireland. Sinn Fein then won an Irish majority in the general election and refused to sit in Westminster, then refused to sit in the Irish Parliament created for them..

After Michael collins had signed a treaty that had been given the condition "Sign now or War" by PM Lloyd George.Sinn Fein also split after that,I must add.

The amount of Bloody Sundays are unreal. Wikipedia says the first took place in 1887..

So the amount overrides the significance.

The UK includes Northern Ireland. Remember that.

And how did those Unionists get there.Oh yes,as a punishment for Ulster warriors fighting british rule.

 

[Uncle Sam]

No, blossomed is a very extreme way of putting it.I fail to see how poverty,opression and loss of freedom to practice religion is blossoming.You do know catholicism became illegal.

I actually didn't. Is that true? Between what years?

I bring you bacl to the plantations,where Catholics in leinster were forced to travel and live in the worst lands in Ireland,Connaught,or face death.The saying was "To hell or to Connaught".

Again, had no knowledge of that.

It became the vote winner to become independent,as a country.Hmm,that makes sense.

Depends on the context, really. Scottish nationalism is beyond me.

In order to become independent,as a country,they need to want to,to become nationalist,which is the same thing.

Yes. Yes, it is. I don't think I claimed that they were different.

No,it's blamed on the British taking Irish food during the famine.Greedy.

I seriously doubt this. Mostly because there was bugger all to take.

So you agree they were rejected by the British.

Well, actually, the Lords only rejected one pro-Ireland bill. An improved version would be passed years later, after the Parliament act.

These mannerisms were forced,which would generate obvious backlash.

They weren't. Nobody was forcing the Irish to play football. I don't even know how you could force an entire country to do that sort of stuff. Certainly, nobody prevented the set up of the Gaelic Athletics Association.

Ireland was a colony,and like all colonies they developed the language and mannerisms of their colonial powers,not by choice.

They already spoke English as their first language. Convenient, really. And I'm sorry if people were put out by not having specialised hurling pitches.

And who established it in the first place...

The predecessors of the Liberal government. So, the Conservatives.

Not adopted,more forced.They did what they needed to survive.But when their religion is illegal,that is not fondness.

Seriously, when was their religion illegal? It just wasn't state-funded.

Gerrymandering(the drawing of electoral lines in such places to give a certain party an advantage) was used to give unionists power in Catholic majorities,such as Derry city.This made sure Unionists always stayed in power.

No, I mean currently. I can't remember the name off the top of my head. It means that all parties are well represented.

They also claimed a mill and the four courts.It's being made into a museum you know.The british did overreact with a huge gunship that is.

Gunship?

After Michael collins had signed a treaty that had been given the condition "Sign now or War" by PM Lloyd George.Sinn Fein also split after that,I must add.

Did they?

So the amount overrides the significance.

Nah, there were just like eight or so of 'em.

And how did those Unionists get there.Oh yes,as a punishment for Ulster warriors fighting british rule.

Or because Ulster politicians accepted the parliament supplied to them because of the Government of Ireland Act.

 

[Tastycles]

I'm going to chip in here by beginning with an incredibly generalised statement. That is that there are a certain group of American people who don't understand the precise nature of the conflict in Ireland, and this is proven by the pro-IRA sentiment of various American political characters such as Bill Clinton and Michael Moore. Equally, there are a lot of British people with misguided ideas about Irish nationality and independence.

The conditions in Ireland in the 19th century were horrendous, that is a fact. Liverpool, the city I most identify with, is a city with a culture built by Irish immigrants who had to flee Ireland during the potato famine, for which they were given no help by the British.

I am not going to sit here and deny that the Easter uprising was wrong, nor the eventual successful attempts at independance by the Irish, and the fact that keeping Northern Ireland seperate was an nderhanded tactic by the Britih government, I even call it Derry, but to sympathise with the cause is one thing, to sympathise with the actions is another thing entirely.

The IRA in Northern Ireland were a peaceful socialist organisation until the late 60s, then some of them turned violent. Bloody Sunday happened after this, and while the actions of the British that day were abhorrent, there had been no violence by the British in Northern Ireland for nearly 50 years until 1971, and it was fighting between the UVF and IRA that caused the British presence to be necessary.

Unfortunately, the British Army were heavily biased against the IRA, but here is my gripe. The IRA then took out almost entirely civilian targets for the next 25 years. Pubs, shopping centres, law courts, shops, all of these are just civilian targets and they did nothing but kill people, many of whom on the British mainland had absolutely no loyalty to either side of the conflict in Ireland.

I'm not stupid enough to ignore the ideology behind this, but ultimately you cannot glamourise or sympathise with a group of people who attack innocent civilians to make a point. There are parts of the third world that have been kept in a bad way because of western interests, but if people from these countries blew up a city centre, it would be seen as a terrorist attrocity. Just because the IRA come from these islands, doesn't make them exempt from this.

I understand why they felt hard done to, and if they had bombed soley military targets for the duration of their campaign, I'd have a different view I'm sure, but at the end of the day you cannot support someone who puts nailbombs in city centres.

 

[Father:_Polley]

How have I missed this one???

I'm going to throw in a few points that have been missed.
A) In RoI, Sinn Fein is a nothing party. Simply put, they are only big in NI because they are a controversial and outspoken voice against 'British Tyranny'. Without that, they're nothing.
I can guarantee you that beyond the pro-Irish agenda, people would be able to tell nothing about their party policy. They're there because they are staunch advocates of the 'freedom fighters', a term which I despise.

B) Ireland is made up of 42 counties, 6 of which are under British rule. If being under British rule is a problem, leave. Your ancestors were born under British rule, and there were 36 other counties to move to.

Now, I understand the concerns about certain things, but, being brutally honest, as the one person personally affected by the current situation in Northern Ireland, I have the right to choose a name, especially one which was chosen long before the changes recently. Fact is, only two people have said anything.

The soldiers being shot in Antrim was repulsive to all but a very select and small minded section of society, in the same way a race or homophobic attack would be. The fact is that Ireland as a whole has a lot of deep seeded issues which will take a long time to go away. But there is proof of improvement in that it hasn't descended into the tit for tat killings that marked the Troubles.