The Crowd... how much pull do we really have?

[The Life Of Pablo Ren]

So I've been thinking a lot lately, and I strongly believe that at the Royal Rumble, people are going to turn on The Rock in favor of CM Punk, it already started happening to an extent, a few weeks ago on RAW, I heard a few "Rocky Sucks" during the Rock/Punk promo, and I find this eerily similar to what happened in 2002, starting at Wrestlemania 18 when The Rock started getting booed, left for a bit, came back, and received even more boos, that the WWE had to turn The Rock heel. The WWE was also forced to turn Orton face a few years back due to the abundance of cheers that he'd get... so here are my questions to you.

1.) If the WWE can do this with The Rock... why can't they do it with Cena? According to some people, though I'm not sure if it's true, Punk earlier last year started out-selling Cena in merchandise sales, so why not turn Cena instead of Punk when Cena was the one getting the negative reaction. I feel that we have some pull in the turns of some Superstars, but is it that strong?

2. If the crowd does turn on The Rock again... do they turn him heel, or keep him face? And does it change their plans for WrestleMania?

 

[closet_fan]

It still comes down to money. Cena is still pumping merch like mad. Plus, and I know everyone hates this, but the kids still love him and still get their parents to pay for tickets, toys, etc.

I still don't know exactly how much of the decision to keep Cena face is based on financial reasons, but it won't happen no matter how much he is boo'd because he is cheered just as much.

Plus with Punk a heel, there really isn't a huge baby face who could take over if Cena did turn.

 

[SydTinDad]

I have been a long time believer that Vince is itching to turn Cena heel, but hides behind the illusion that little kids won't buy his stuff anymore. An illusion of epic proportion. Talk about out of left field..............Cena interfears in the Rock Punk Match and lays out Punk (face laying out a heel right?). The have Rock interfear in the RR match helping Cena. Then you have Rock with 1 belt.......Cena going after the other. The kids will still love Cena, the adults will hate Cena more, and the Rock has just turned them into a Hollywood heel connection.

Punk is now your top baby face.

 

[D-Man]

Money talks, people. And merchandise is one of the top sources of income for the WWE.

The crowd does have more of a say than most of you think. Perfect example: Chris Benoit. He was never much of a mic-talker or merchandise-seller. However, he still had the audience in the palm of his hands and they collectively wanted to see him become a world champion. Matter of fact, it was so overwhelming that the WWE couldn't ignore it any longer and they allowed him to win a world title at their biggest show of the year. Why, you ask? Because it drew money.

I understand how most of you think that just because Cena gets an overwhelming amount of boos in many cities televised on Raw and Smackdown then he should be turned into a heel. It seems like it makes perfect sense. But before you think that way, while you're listening to the boos, look at the audience. Now, start to notice how many anti-Cena fans are wearing Cena merchandise while they're booing him. Then, look at how many pro-Cena fans in the crowd are sporting his merchandise proudly. Regardless of what you hear or see, the proof is in the numbers rung up at the cash register. If Cena is still making THAT kind of money in merch for the WWE, why would they do anything to jeopardize that source of income?

 

[MCMG]

Differernt people buy the merchandise of each superstar. If Punk was face and Cena was heel i'd imagine overall merchandise sale would go down. Lets say only kids bought Cena merchandise, if he turned heel than sales would surely go down (even just slightly) and I don't think that there would be a different demographic to pick up the slack. Punk's market doesn't change heel or face. The same people buy his t-shirts.

The crowd does have influence. If there is enough outcry than the WWE do take notice. Ryder is an example. I would argue Punk is another one.

The Rock turning heel? I can't see it happening. He just suits being face and even though his jokes get repetitive and some people are turning on him he is worth a few laughs. If he were to face Taker than I could see him turning but even then he would probably remain face.

 

[TheRocker035]

I dont think CM Punk should be a heel, though WWE wants him to be. He's more talented in all aspects than most wrestlers in any organization. Punk should be the face of WWE not Cena. Cena is no where near the wrestler Punk is. Same goes for The "Part-Timer" Rock. Dwayne just needs to keep on doing movies. Plain and simple.

I hope Punk is WWE Champ this time next year. He has given so much to wrestling. Hes EARNED it

 

[Toroc102]

Honestly to me it seems like Vince goes out of his way to give the fans what they don't want lately. Like to me Daniel Bryan, AJ Lee, and CM Punk are all characters that the crowd is dying to cheer for but WWE just doesn't care. On the other hand when its a wrestler you know Vince is behind and the crowd also gets behind them then that's a done deal, you Vince only cares about the crowd if they like who he wants them to like.

 

[The Life Of Pablo Ren]

I appreciate all the posts so far, but I'm going with the assumption (because I know I heard it around WrestleMania time last year) that Punk started to out-sell Cena in merchandise. That's why I ask you why Punk and not Cena when Cena was no longer THE top merchandise seller.

Please keep in mind though that I'm all for Punk as a heel... I think he's doing a fabulous job, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

WWE doesn't have anything to gain by turning John Cena heel other than lost merchandise revenue because butthurt kids lost their hero. Cena is already a heel to most adults because they find him hokey. The initial shock of Cena turning heel would be big business for WWE at the start, but it would taper off quick when they realized Cena was just as bland as a heel.

Same thing with Punk... Sure his merchandise sales went up after his initial pipe-bomb "shoot" and his brief face run. But I would venture a guess that his merchandise didn't take too much of a hit when he went back to the proverbial dark side either.

It always comes down to money when you're dealing with any business. Punk has very little upside as a face because the target "face" audience is children, and very few children understand what the hell Punk is talking about outside of ice-cream bars and 7-11 cups.

 

[InstantAttitude]

1. It all comes down to who is going to replace Cena..........it's not gonna be Punk sadly. WWE is in its "Family Friendly" type Era.......Punk is no where near "Family Friendly" If the WWE were to change it's direction to a much more edgier state Punk would be the perfect leading man for that.
2. I personally have not heard a single boo nor "Rocky Sucks" chant for The Rock yet. He's been getting some large crowd reactions so far. Especially this past week, and when the Shield attacked Rock they were getting a massive amount of heat. Plus Punk's been going a good job as a heel and the heat he has been getting has been great. From the promos and crowd elements I've seen from both more people are with The Rock rather than Punk, and I don't think people will "Turn" on Rock at the Rumble. Regardless of what happens WWE will keep Rocky as a face.......hell I doubt Dwayne even has that much of a character nowadays. He just basically is himself and WWE is going to keep him that way has he is presented as a big time legend.

 

[Kunztown]

wwe will not do anything with cena until his sales drop to 3rd on the roster.... with Punk and Cena still 1 and 2... they won't turn cena. I am trying to think of anyone who the kids can get behind if cena turns heel, and I just can't see it..... zach ryder? santino? funkasaurus? I don't think so.... There is no one who appeals to kids that is in the main event..... Think of Hulk Hogan for us 20 and 30 year olds.... He appealed to kids!....then when we got older, and into our teens, the rebel years started and stone cold was soo popular because he was the ultimate rebel. Now, we are in our late 20s and 30s, and wwe is back to where it was in the 80s except more realty gimmicks and less corny gimmicks. I remember being a kid, and my parents saying to turn this fake junk off....lol. 30 years later....yup, still fake, but I can't stop watching.

 

[Brothervis]

If the crowd had any pull Cena would of been heel 6 years ago to prove he's edgy instead of corny. Every one knows to get over with the fans you start heel not face....... Amazing the people on this forum are not shy just ******ed

 

[Toroc102]

Lol dude, Cena did start as a heel, and he was mad over. The problem is that when he first turned face he was still a badass but then they slowly turned him into a cornball fake Marine. If he wasn't such a cornball he'd probably get a lot less boos.

And doesn't all this merchandise talk just prove how calcified and unpopular wrestling has become? To me its just an excuse not to push anyone new. I mean Jesus, it doesn't matter if they are heel or face, it matters if the character is cool. That's why nWo shirts sold. That's why Austin 3:16 shirts are the best selling shirts of all time. That's why Goldberg shirts sold great. One of those was a heel group, one of them was definitely not a pg star, and the other could've been construed as a heel or a face the whole time had WcW decided to announce him as a heel. Basically this whole merchandise excuse is just sad. I guess WWE just doesn't know how to create stars anymore right? And once John Cena can't wrestle anymore the WWE is just going to have to close its doors right?

 

[Brothervis]

Wow Toroc102 I never knew Cena was entertaining.... Were you dropped on your head as a child of course he had a run as a heel it's what gets you over you autistic fuck. The fact you say if he stayed to his character that got him over would get him less boos proves he sucks and doesn't care about the fans. If he cared about the fans he would change like Punk, Rock, Austin, Bret Hart, Owen Hart or any person who cares about wrestling which cena doesn't or why else does he not call "Vince or Linda" on turning heel. It's not a coincidence Cena character changing and the pg era started

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Why turn Punk instead of Cena? Because Punk wanted to turn heel. He turned because he can go further in the company right now as a heel than as a face. Punk is the top heel in the business right now. Plus he has the look of a heel. Cocky smirk, tattoos, unshaven. Cena has a face look; clean cut, ripped, always smiling. It is true that Punk overtook Cena in merch sales, but look at all the publicity and goodwill that Cena brings in due to his charity work. I love Punk, but he isn't a people person. He isn't the type of guy to go out and do all that, and that is why Punk turned instead of Cena.

As far as the original question, the fans do have some say. Without the fans Ryder would never have been pushed. Bryan would have probably fallen back into midcard obscurity. The thing is, the IWC is just a small portion of the fanbase. Yeah, most people here will say they want this and this, but ask random people at a show and most will say they are fairly satisfied with what they are getting. They wouldn't go if they didn't.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

The thing with the crowd and John Cena is that it simply isn't what it appears to be.

Like D-Man said and I've said in numerous posts regarding Cena's popularity, Cena's "unpopularity" with the "Let's go Cena/Cena Sucks" chants has become something of an unofficial tradition in WWE. People participate in it because it's fun. If the crowds didn't care about John Cena at all, he'd be getting the Tensai treatment and would have been a very, very long time ago.

I've been to a good deal of WWE house shows and I've seen 12 year old boys dressed up in John Cena gear participate in the "Cena Sucks" aspect of the chant while I've also seen 18-40 year old males, the demo that supposedly "hates" Cena, wearing his gear and saying "Let's Go Cena".

Whenever you turn on Raw or SD!, it's easy to see a lot of fans in the audience wearing Cena merchandise. If "everyone" really "hated" Cena as much as some think they do, Cena wouldn't be in the spot he's in nor would he be making money hand over fist for the WWE.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to money just like it's supposed to. And that is where the fans generally have an impact on who WWE pushes. The reasons why WWE continues to push guys like Cena, Punk, Bryan, Kane, Ziggler, Rock, Lesnar when he's around, Taker when he's around and many others is because they generate a positive response from WWE fans, whether they're being booed or cheered, and are helping to bring in a lot of money for the company.

From an overall perspective, Ric Flair was probably the overall best & top heel of the 1980s. He was the one that Jim Crockett, Jr. built his company around during the 80s despite the fact he was a heel and despite the fact that he got "booed". The reason Crockett did that is because Ric Flair made a lot of money. Flair was good at his job of course, but if you can't make money, then it doesn't really matter how good you are.

As far as Punk being heel goes, exactly why shouldn't he be heel? Just because it's what a handful of people want? Punk has easily been the top heel in wrestling during his heel turn. Punk gets a decent amount of cheers sometimes, depending upon what town Raw is in, but he constantly gets more boos than cheers now. From a character standpoint, I think Punk has been much stronger than he was during his babyface run at the first half of 2012. It wouldn't bother me if Punk became a face again, but I think they need to go back to more of the edgier, anti-corporate rebel he was back in 2011. Punk is a money maker for WWE so it doesn't really matter if he's face or heel. Fans still gobble up his merchandise like it's candy.

I get that some people want Cena to go heel. For me personally, I'd like to see it take place. However, I know WWE won't do it just for the simple sake of turning him heel, nor should they. It'd be a stupid business decision. Cena is popular with young fans who aren't quite as jaded or knowledgeable of wrestling and it's ins and outs, at least most of them aren't, and they make up a healthy percentage of Cena's merchandise sales. As long as Cena continues to pull strong audience interest and make lots of money for WWE, he won't be going heel. Also, you have to consider the possibility that make Cena doesn't want to go heel. If anyone in WWE has the stroke to determine whether they're face or heel, it's John Cena. Cena is also a damn good public relations guy for WWE, especially when it comes to WWE partnering with charitable organizations like the Make A Wish Foundation,

 

[Revelations]

The crowd seems very bored lately. Unless they go to cities like Miami, Chicago, or New York you get barely any crowd reaction. It's amazing how WWE has to have fake cheers/boos in their taped shows like Main Event and Smackdown. I miss the pops you would hear back in the Attitude Era in the WWE and WCW.

 

[WrestlingSabermetrics]

The crowd plays a significant role. I'm not exactly certain of the breakdown, but my guess would be the following factors are in the top seven:

(1) Vince McMahon's opinion (1a) HHH's opinion

(2) Shareholders (Real Life obviously)- How do they react to various title changes, bookings, etc.

(3) Creative Team

(4) Television Ratings

(5) Merchandise Sales

(6) Attendance Numbers ("The Crowd")

(7) Marketing (Non-Merchandise Sales, Commercials, TV/Movie Appearances)

While we might only be sixth, that's still fairly high up when everything is taken into context. I'd say we have a decent amount of pull. However, in comparison to Vince and HHH, the crowd could be considered lilliputian rather unfortunately.

Personally, while I love the crowd, they aren't always a great cross-section nor representative of the complete audience watching at home. It's a classic small sample size problem. A crowd in Philadelphia is unlikely to react in a similar matter to a crowd in Los Angeles, and Brooklyn is not necessarily a milieu known to support faces (as evidenced by this past year's TLC). Crowd reaction was more useful in the pre-TV deal days.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

I've always said that if every WWE show alternated between New York, Chicago, the UK and Canada the product would be drastically different. The crowd has two real jobs: react, or don't react. Booing and cheering is all under the safe category: react. Because nobody backstage cares whether you love or hate somebody, so long as it's drawing a reaction out of you. Hatred is what fuels half the industry; apathy is the only real killer to entertainment.

As a crowd, you make or break somebody's career by your reaction. If everyone goes dead silent for 4 weeks when Jack Swagger comes out, they're going to re-evaluate. If people hadn't started hating Vickie Guerrero or Michael Cole os much, they would have pulled the plug. It's your own damn fault that those two stuck around in their roles for as long as they have. So really, crowds have a huge amount of power. Which is why I'm as passionate as I can be when I go to live shows. At Extreme Rules, I got my entire section to chant "yes" and "no" for all the pinfalls, instead of actual counts. 'Twas ridiculous. Booker T kept turning around and laughing at us.

 

[Wald]

Honestly the answer to the question of how much influence we have is some, but not much.

If Vince were really true to his word that the WWE Universe decides everything than Daniel Bryan would have been the focal point of the company in 2012. No-one was more over than Bryan, not Cena, not Sheamus, not Punk. They had solid gold on their hands with the Yes chants after Mania but didn't fully capitalise on it and eventually made a comedy pairing to give Bryan and Kane something to do.

Another example is Zack Ryder. Whatever you think about the guy there is no denying that he got himself massively over with the crowd. As soon as they could it's like the WWE punished him for doing something that creative couldn't and demoted him back to his spot before his Youtube show. That was in spite of Ryder getting massive pops from the crowd in the first half of 2012. His career is practically dead now.

And this isn't just standard IWC bitching about our guys not getting pushed. I don't think the two points I made above can be argued by any who watched the WWE for the past 12 months.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

1.) If the WWE can do this with The Rock... why can't they do it with Cena? According to some people, though I'm not sure if it's true, Punk earlier last year started out-selling Cena in merchandise sales, so why not turn Cena instead of Punk when Cena was the one getting the negative reaction. I feel that we have some pull in the turns of some Superstars, but is it that strong?

[YOUTUBE]BulVAjTOtuc[/YOUTUBE]

after 1:00...

Listening to that promo some time ago and understanded that Cena is good as it is and doesnt need heel turn. Would be huge deel but dont think he should do it now because there is absolutely no reason to do it. If they build it properly then maybe but right now he is good face of the Company. Someone else from around here would maybe even said that he is not as much hated as we think he was...

 

[HellBoundPower]

I think the crowd has as much pull as Vince McMahon and the Creative Team want us to have. Vince always makes the final decisions, despite what the crowd wants most of the time. There are instances when he lets the crowd dictate his decisions, but they are few and far between. During the Attitude Era, the crowd had more pull because WWF was in desperation mode to beat WCW in the ratings and stay in business. These days WWE is the only relevant company in town, with no real opposition, so Vince can basically spoon feed the crowd whatever he wants to. And even is he loses some fans in the process (which has obviously happened based on the ratings dropping since the Attitude Era ended) he knows that people will continue to watch with either the hope of it improving, or simply out of habit.

 

[Psykohurricane55]

Simply put, it's all about the money and it really got nothing to do with the die-hard fans. Those fans like me and everybody on this board will go a buy anything the WWE does not matter how crappy it is. Everybody in WWE knows that. The real power lies with the casual fans. The families that follow the product on tv. The fans that only goes to WWE show once in a while. These are the people that actually have pull with WWE because these are the peoples that will go and buy a John Cena or C.M Punk shirt. These are the peoples that will cheer for guys like Daniel Bryan And Kane even through the die-hard fans would love to see these 2 break up already.

At the end of the day, the causual fans are the ones that will make the most money for the WWE because they just don't care about who is the better wrestler and how badly a guy is booked. If they like a character they will buy his merchandise no matter what and that's how the WWE was able to survive since Vince Mcmahon bought the company from is dad back in 1983. That's how Hogan was able to stay on top for as long as he did. That's how Bret Hart, Diesel, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, HHH, Austin And Rock were able to become legends in wrestling, because casual fans actually like them enough to go and buys their merchandises.

So in the end, the only way you would get somebody like John Cena to turn heel would be for all those fans that hate Cena to stop buying is merchandise, outside of that, that the real power of the crowd.

 

[cups.solo]

Not as much pull as you think, The corporate suits do not care what we want or think,