This match is overrated. How can a great match have absolutely no selling in it? The psychology in this match is non-existent. Dean Malenko wouldn't know how to sell, even if his life depended on it. An example of this is when Eddie superplexed Malenko in the first third of the match...wtf?? And then Malenko got up STRAIGHT AWAY!! After a superplex!! That makes absolutely no sense. The match was just a sequence of moves, without any proper transition, which added no real flow or purpose to the story of the match. Everything just seemed so unrealistic and staged. No denying it's an entertaining match, but a great one? Hell no.
"The Best of the 90's - Matches"
- Thread starter IrishCanadian25
- Start date
This match is overrated. How can a great match have absolutely no selling in it? The psychology in this match is non-existent. Dean Malenko wouldn't know how to sell, even if his life depended on it. An example of this is when Eddie superplexed Malenko in the first third of the match...wtf?? And then Malenko got up STRAIGHT AWAY!! After a superplex!! That makes absolutely no sense. The match was just a sequence of moves, without any proper transition, which added no real flow or purpose to the story of the match. Everything just seemed so unrealistic and staged. No denying it's an entertaining match, but a great one? Hell no.
That'd be an amazing feat, considering it's yet to happen.
SORT of work the crowd? Are you kidding me? The workrate in that match was phenomenal. They had those fans emotions tied into a knot all match long.
Ring psychology is more than about limb psychology. It's about proper flow to a match, the right moves at the right time, how to increase the suspense of belief...all while doing it in a logical realistic way. They very much did that.
But...exactly. That was the whole point. It was the two men who were the strongest in the world, the two immovable objects going at it. It was the classic experienced veteran against the upcomer. It was Hogan's "Ultimate Challenge". Of course they use power moves and holds. What else did you want them to use? But, all of their spots made sense. You don't look at many moments in the match and go, "What the hell is the purpose of that?".
RVD/Lynn I'm constantly thinking...that was the most illogical and unrealistic sequence I've never seen in a fight. When I watch Hogan vs. Warrior, everything they do is believable.
No, it's called working the crowd.
Hogan looks like he takes a beating in most matches. He looks like he gets worn out by his opponent and takes a hell of whipping.
Not sure where you get that from.
Yes it was.
It was one of the biggest Wrestlemania matches in history. How is that overhyped?
The fact this was a face vs. face match and drew the response it did should tell you just how great of a matchup, and match, that this was. And, these guys surely did not disappoint in the ring.
Do you really think those fans would have cared if that match had been bad? Do you think that after 20+ minutes, if the match would have been awful, the fans would have been into it MORE than they were to start the match? Of course not.
Well, this statement is plain ridiculous. Of course you credit Hogan and Warrior for that. They are the ones who drew the interest in the first place.
It's unfortunate that you don't enjoy this match as much as most people. But I stand by my pick. How can this match be great you ask? Because I am a fan of wrestling moves and the two guys in this match are some of the best at creating and executing moves. The story unfolding in the ring was not the huge emotional climax of a heated fued- and if you need that to be into a match, then this one isn't for you. It was a story of two technical wrestlers challenging each other- seeing who can perform the moves the best. It was a match of true competition. And that's what makes it great.
To refresh my mind about the match, I watched RVD/Lynn from ECW Hardcore Heaven '99 again. What an absolute shit match. It was awful. How this match is winning this poll, I have no idea. There was 0 psychology throughout the entire match, not to mention a complete lack of any storytelling, and crap selling. They even botched several spots. None of the moves they did made any sense, there was no flow to the match at all. All they did was flip around for half an hour.
I wouldn't even put this match in my top 100 matches of the 90's.
I wouldn't even put this match in my top 100 matches of the 90's.
2
2pacalypse Now
Guest
My personal preference was Jerry Lynn vs Rob Van Dam. To me they are the two most talented, under-used professionals in the wrestling sport today. Although the other matches all come in very closely.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
I have officially found myself completely alone on the Thrillseekers vs The Heavenly Bodies choice. I think I may be the only person here who has ever seen that match, how gripping it was.
SlyFox, my old nemesis, I have to give you a tip of the hat on the "playing to the crowd" thing. Indeed, Hogan and Warrior made steroid-laden careers out of flexing for the crowd, shaking ropes, and cupping ears. Bravo.
I maintain that it was less the performers who deserved much of the credit for the build-up of the match as the WWE itself. Matches leading up to WM6 were booked well, using a formula similar to the Wrestlemania 5 "Mega-Powers Explode!" format. But I will give Hogan credit for telling the "this could be the guy who beats me" story.
As far as continuity in the match, I maintain it was weak. You will undoubtedly come back with "it didn't need to be continuous because it worked well for this match" but I don't agree. I felt rest holds were overused due to the lack of endurance of the athletes.
Mounds of debate on Lynn vs RVD. Obviously, where the match was placed in each person's list is a reflection of the criteria they used. Lynn vs RVD was a match heavy on high spots, visual impressions, chain wrestling, and two guys who put their lives into their opponents hands like no others had before. It was a clinic on performing difficult, high impact maneuvers. But I totally see where people come from in terms of story telling and selling.
I was shocked at the lack of votes for Benoit vs Sullivan. That match single handedly stole the Great American Bash that year and launched Chris Benoit into a much higher status. That match made people buy the fact that he was a Horseman. The greatest Falls Count Anywhere Match of its time because they took the fight to places mainstream wrestling had not gone yet.
Great debates, folks. New edition of "Best of the 90's" due this week.
SlyFox, my old nemesis, I have to give you a tip of the hat on the "playing to the crowd" thing. Indeed, Hogan and Warrior made steroid-laden careers out of flexing for the crowd, shaking ropes, and cupping ears. Bravo.
I maintain that it was less the performers who deserved much of the credit for the build-up of the match as the WWE itself. Matches leading up to WM6 were booked well, using a formula similar to the Wrestlemania 5 "Mega-Powers Explode!" format. But I will give Hogan credit for telling the "this could be the guy who beats me" story.
As far as continuity in the match, I maintain it was weak. You will undoubtedly come back with "it didn't need to be continuous because it worked well for this match" but I don't agree. I felt rest holds were overused due to the lack of endurance of the athletes.
Mounds of debate on Lynn vs RVD. Obviously, where the match was placed in each person's list is a reflection of the criteria they used. Lynn vs RVD was a match heavy on high spots, visual impressions, chain wrestling, and two guys who put their lives into their opponents hands like no others had before. It was a clinic on performing difficult, high impact maneuvers. But I totally see where people come from in terms of story telling and selling.
I was shocked at the lack of votes for Benoit vs Sullivan. That match single handedly stole the Great American Bash that year and launched Chris Benoit into a much higher status. That match made people buy the fact that he was a Horseman. The greatest Falls Count Anywhere Match of its time because they took the fight to places mainstream wrestling had not gone yet.
Great debates, folks. New edition of "Best of the 90's" due this week.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
PerfectPlex, the Super J Cup did create some great matches. The finals one year between Benoit and Jericho was one of their first classic matches. Great high flying, technical wrestling, chain wrestling action. Super J Cup really helped set the stage for a lot of top athletes for the late 90's and early 00's.
Since we're on a 90's appreciation kick, and Jake has matches of the "cartoon" era, I found this from an independent third site, and I find some of the match choices fairly interesting.
You can argue and debate amongst yourselves if you like, I'm providing the info. I really think this list is a pretty damn good list of matches for the WWF in the 90's, even though I'm guessing the absence of Hogan v. Warrior at WM 6 is going to piss one of our posters off, but I wouldn't know which one....
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Shock, ironically, the list you just posted is the list that inspired the "Best of the 90's" segments. It's just snowballed from there.
My secret is out!
My secret is out!
njperfection
Dark Match Winner
Mr. Perfect vs. Bret Hart, Summerslam 91. Pure brilliance in the ring. Proved to be just the start of how good Bret can be and how good Mr. Perfect has become.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
I totally agree. Summerslam 1991 was Bret Hart's "coming out party." He proved he could carry a long, intense match himself (without Neidhardt) and engage the crowd. Curt Henning deserves a lot of credit for making Hart look GREAT in that match and selling so much of what Bret did.
In Bret's DVD, he even talks about how much Henning did for him in that match despite his back injury.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
I can't believe Ric Flair's house show matches with Brett Hart & Randy Savage
are being mentioned (although they were very good, especially the iron man match with BH) but nobody mentioned Flair vs Vader Starrcade 93. The buidl up was huge, with Flair, now several months into his return to WCW attempting to regain the World Title at a time when boxing (George Foreman) and football (Joe Montana) had some inpsiring stories of aging athletes regaining former glory. Vader was portrayed as an indestructible mad man who ran roughshod overthe whole company, including long time Flair nemesis Sting. Vader wouldn't just beat Flair, he would kill him the story went. Add Harley Race as Vader's evil manager, the man who ten years earlier tried and failed to end Flair's career, eventually losing the title to him at the very first Starrcade. Race was portrayed as haveing his career ruined by Flair but thanks to Vader he now could return the favor as the only way for Flair o get a title shot was to agree to retire if he did not win the belt. Having the match take place in Charlotte (Flair's hometown) added to the excitement. This was some of the best pre match build-up/storytelling WCW ever did, right down to the vignettes with Flair's family wishng him luck in his home and Mean Gene Okerlund joining Flair for one last limo ride to the arena, juxtaposed against images of Vader's menacing work-out, destroying punching bags and gym equipment.
The match itself while not a technical masterpiece was classic David vs Goliath battle, Flair really selling a horrible beating early on before resorting to his "Dirties Player In the Game" tactics, utilizing eye pokes, biting the forehead, even a few steel chair shots. Race interferes during the figure four leg lock to prevent a vader submission, we have ref bumps, blood, some mind bogging aerial moves by the 450 pound Vader, and a pull you from your seat finish where a battered, bloody, aging Flair overcomes a brutal shoulder block to execute a football tackle take down on Vader's knee, rolling into an inside cradle, and holding on with the audience in a collective gasp as vader kicks out a half second too late.
Sting's first World Title Win (over Flair at Great American bash 1990) also deserves recognition, a fast paced evenly fought encounter with Sting clearly portrayed as an underdog (his first match back after real life knee surgery) and the first time Sting cleanly beat Flair in a championship match.
are being mentioned (although they were very good, especially the iron man match with BH) but nobody mentioned Flair vs Vader Starrcade 93. The buidl up was huge, with Flair, now several months into his return to WCW attempting to regain the World Title at a time when boxing (George Foreman) and football (Joe Montana) had some inpsiring stories of aging athletes regaining former glory. Vader was portrayed as an indestructible mad man who ran roughshod overthe whole company, including long time Flair nemesis Sting. Vader wouldn't just beat Flair, he would kill him the story went. Add Harley Race as Vader's evil manager, the man who ten years earlier tried and failed to end Flair's career, eventually losing the title to him at the very first Starrcade. Race was portrayed as haveing his career ruined by Flair but thanks to Vader he now could return the favor as the only way for Flair o get a title shot was to agree to retire if he did not win the belt. Having the match take place in Charlotte (Flair's hometown) added to the excitement. This was some of the best pre match build-up/storytelling WCW ever did, right down to the vignettes with Flair's family wishng him luck in his home and Mean Gene Okerlund joining Flair for one last limo ride to the arena, juxtaposed against images of Vader's menacing work-out, destroying punching bags and gym equipment.
The match itself while not a technical masterpiece was classic David vs Goliath battle, Flair really selling a horrible beating early on before resorting to his "Dirties Player In the Game" tactics, utilizing eye pokes, biting the forehead, even a few steel chair shots. Race interferes during the figure four leg lock to prevent a vader submission, we have ref bumps, blood, some mind bogging aerial moves by the 450 pound Vader, and a pull you from your seat finish where a battered, bloody, aging Flair overcomes a brutal shoulder block to execute a football tackle take down on Vader's knee, rolling into an inside cradle, and holding on with the audience in a collective gasp as vader kicks out a half second too late.
Sting's first World Title Win (over Flair at Great American bash 1990) also deserves recognition, a fast paced evenly fought encounter with Sting clearly portrayed as an underdog (his first match back after real life knee surgery) and the first time Sting cleanly beat Flair in a championship match.
All these are great choices. But I would like to add a personal favorite of mine. Going on match alone, no hype, no storyline; Smackdown House Show in Mobile, AL '04: Charlie Haas v. Christian (yes I said House Show)!! Was 15-20 minute wrestling clinic. Brought to mind thoughts of Bret v. Owen, Bret v. Benoit. The match opened the show and had me suprisingly on the edge of my seat. Both Superstars started recieving pops during the match and both got a "standing O" as they left ringside. Technical, high flighing, and catch-as-catch-can were the ingrediants with Haas picking up the win with the "Haas of Pain". I went in anticipation of seeing the Undertaker "LIVE", but left talking about his match. Just wondered if anyone else has seen a House Show match that got them excited about proffesional wrestling again?
H
hbk&triple h
Guest
For me it is a toss-up between three great matches:
In Your House 10: Mind Games
Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind. First off, if you haven't seen the match do so immediately. You will be happy you did. Their styles were completely different yet they just went so well together. Mankind showed he could definitely wrestle. The table spot was great. Something you didn't get much of yet but that was great.
Wrestlemania 8
Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair. The build up was absolutely great. It was awesome. The match was just great as well. Randy Savage is great when it comes to Wrestlemania and Flair is Flair. Sadly, this match is lost in the fact that it was part of a double main event with that bastard Hulk Hogan. And that Warrior returned. The match is truly a classic and is something to be watched.
Wrestlemania 10:Ladder Match
This match is truly a revolutionary. It took the WWE to a different level. A match like this hadn't been done often and it was a first. Ladders had never been used and high-flying had never been done to this extent. The match is great. I'd like to see Jeff Hardy carry an almost 30 minute Ladder Match that told a great story. This match is just amazing and without it ever happening, who knows what would have happened.
In Your House 10: Mind Games
Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind. First off, if you haven't seen the match do so immediately. You will be happy you did. Their styles were completely different yet they just went so well together. Mankind showed he could definitely wrestle. The table spot was great. Something you didn't get much of yet but that was great.
Wrestlemania 8
Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair. The build up was absolutely great. It was awesome. The match was just great as well. Randy Savage is great when it comes to Wrestlemania and Flair is Flair. Sadly, this match is lost in the fact that it was part of a double main event with that bastard Hulk Hogan. And that Warrior returned. The match is truly a classic and is something to be watched.
Wrestlemania 10:Ladder Match
This match is truly a revolutionary. It took the WWE to a different level. A match like this hadn't been done often and it was a first. Ladders had never been used and high-flying had never been done to this extent. The match is great. I'd like to see Jeff Hardy carry an almost 30 minute Ladder Match that told a great story. This match is just amazing and without it ever happening, who knows what would have happened.
rockofhysteria
Occasional Pre-Show
My pic for the best match of the 90's is actually a tie for me between the 1992 Royal Rumble and Ric Flair vs Sting from Great American Bash 1990
The Rumble because it was most star studded rumble to this day it was great especially the suprise finish when Hulk Hogan Actually helped Ric Flair eliminate Sid Justice to Win the Rumble and the WWE title.
my other pic is Sting And Flair at Bash 90 because This match had such great buildup to it from Sting becoming a Horseman and helping Flair including Teaming with him at Havoc 89 in a tag team cage match to Them Turning on him and Wrecking his knee his long road to recovery and his triumphant return at Bash with help from El Gigante Paul Orndordd JYD and the Steiners Keeping the Horseman at Bay He was able to beat Flair to capture his first world title.
The Rumble because it was most star studded rumble to this day it was great especially the suprise finish when Hulk Hogan Actually helped Ric Flair eliminate Sid Justice to Win the Rumble and the WWE title.
my other pic is Sting And Flair at Bash 90 because This match had such great buildup to it from Sting becoming a Horseman and helping Flair including Teaming with him at Havoc 89 in a tag team cage match to Them Turning on him and Wrecking his knee his long road to recovery and his triumphant return at Bash with help from El Gigante Paul Orndordd JYD and the Steiners Keeping the Horseman at Bay He was able to beat Flair to capture his first world title.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
My vote,of course goes to Perfect VS Hart at SS 91....of course becuase in jakes top ten list thread, it was my number one match of all time lol....Both men doing everything and anything u could ask of a match, and an awesome out of nowere clean finish. And perfect working the match with an injured back was all the better.
But I certainley agree with you IrishCanadian 25, about Savage VS Flair, as that is anothe rmatch that made my top ten, and another one that was just insane. Incredible, REAL emotion, and a greta finish, and bobby Heenans priceless near meltdown while commentating. Greatness. Match of the Night on one of my favorite WMs ever.
Cant say Ive ever seen the SMW match you are talking about but you make me wish I did. Cross promotion stuff like that is so rare, and for the WWE to allow SMW's guys to go over, is pretty badass.
But I certainley agree with you IrishCanadian 25, about Savage VS Flair, as that is anothe rmatch that made my top ten, and another one that was just insane. Incredible, REAL emotion, and a greta finish, and bobby Heenans priceless near meltdown while commentating. Greatness. Match of the Night on one of my favorite WMs ever.
Cant say Ive ever seen the SMW match you are talking about but you make me wish I did. Cross promotion stuff like that is so rare, and for the WWE to allow SMW's guys to go over, is pretty badass.
Nah, Bret isn't the only person who can stand at the top, HBK puts on a better match then Bret any day of the week, as does Savage, and Hogan. Bret needed a great opponent to make a match feel big, someone like HBK, or Taker and the like, Other guys can go out there with a mediocre wrestler and make the match huge, look at Hogan vs. Warrior, that did what a wrestling match is supposed to do, it sucked you in and made you buy the PPV. Bret's PPV main events didn't fare nearly as well as Hogan, Taker and the Macho Man.
voted for Savage vs Flair
probably second of all time not just the 90's. Like others have said, real true emotion brought out by two men that can do it better than anyone.
Honorable mention has to go to Thrillseekers vs Heavenly Bodies
Being the HUGE Jericho fan that I am of course its up there for me, but for me it stands out as simply the best SMW match ive ever seen.
probably second of all time not just the 90's. Like others have said, real true emotion brought out by two men that can do it better than anyone.
Honorable mention has to go to Thrillseekers vs Heavenly Bodies
Being the HUGE Jericho fan that I am of course its up there for me, but for me it stands out as simply the best SMW match ive ever seen.
dave_theanimal_batista
Dark Match Jobber
My vote goes to Bret Hart v.s. Davey Boy Smith from SummerSlam 92. This match was very emotional with it being brother in law v.s. brother in law and then having Diana in the crowd and seeing her facial expressions throughout the match. Not to mention the crowd at Wembly Stadium was absolutely crazy. And for the match to go on last was also a big thing because back then nothing was after the World Championship match. That was always the main event, but Vince had enough trust in both of them that they could pull off a great match and that they did.
I voted other. My favorite match of the 90s would be RVD vs Jerry Lynn from Living Dangerously 99. That match was a 5 star classic and it was 20 minute of total nonstop action(unlike some company that claims to have that on Thursday nights). I mean if you saw that match live when it happened...weren't you thinking "man who is going to win this one?" There were so many nearfalls.