Slyfox's attempt to give ROH/Danielson another shot.

[Slyfox696]

Ok, lord knows I have been bashing ROH and particularly Bryan Danielson for a long time. So, tonight, I thought I'd give both another shot to prove to me that they are as great as all their fans say they are. I heard that the Bryan Danielson vs. Nigel McGuinness match from ROH Unified was a phenomenal match, so I found it online and watch it.

I must say I was not at all impressed.



I'll go ahead and start with some good...it won't take near as long. There were parts where Bryan Danielson ran some really decent heel psychology, better than I figured he would. I don't know the back story to the match, but it seemed as if he was going to be the heel in the match. For example, one instance is where he gets on Nigel for what looks like a (either a bow and arrow or a surfboard...I don't remember) and rocks with him three or four times, getting the crowd to "woah" with him. And then, instead of rocking back on him, he stops and just kicks Nigel instead. And I think to myself, "You know, that was a VERY good heel move". But what does he do next? After displaying a great heel move, he puts on Nigel on the top rope for a FUCKING SUPERPLEX...and then goes back to the top for a FUCKING HEADBUTT! In the middle of the match! All that work he had just done to work himself as a heel, went straight down the drain. It was a HORRIBLE decision, and possibly the WORST time to do it.

In addition, AmDrag may be one of the worst sellers I have ever seen, at least going by this match. It was unbelievable and either really over the top, or undersold hard. And speaking of selling, one of the things people like to bash one of my favorite wrestlers, John Cena, for is his one instance of poor selling at WM 23. Well, damnit, fair is fair, and I'm fighting back. At the end of the match, after Nigel is on the floor, all cut and bleeding. He BARELY is able to roll back into the ring at the count of 19, one second before the loss. He was down, and out, and defeated. 5 seconds later, he's shaking like the Ultimate Warrior, completely energized, and no selling the same terrific beating he was just selling 10 seconds previous. And, the same thing happened to AmDrag at the very end. He gets layed out by a Lariat from Nigel...and he is OUT...for at least a 10 count. Nigel covers...1, 2...and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, somehow Danielson has the strength to not only kick out of the pin (with a cradled leg), but also reverse the pin into a Cattle Mutilation. Whenever people want to talk about no-selling, I'm going to start right there.

Speaking of the Cattle Mutilation, what the hell is that? How is that supposed to hurt anyone? I've never been in it (probably because it is one of the more unrealistic wrestling moves ever), but just looking at it, there is nothing about it that would be painful. So, maybe some can enlighten me on just how that move would hurt at all.

And, there was VERY little psychology to this match. The only thing I saw that was good psychology was when Nigel propped himself up on the ropes the first time and hit Danielson with a move..and the second time tryed it and got kicked in the face. Other than that, what role did ANY of the moves either person serve? Danielson starts the match working on the wrist of Nigel...why? I'm assuming that the Lariat is Nigel's finisher...how does a hurt wrist prevent a Lariat? Did AmDrag ever work any part of the body that a Cattle Mutilation might hurt (assuming there is something that it supposedly hurts)? Not that I can remember. It was like they were just doing random moves for the sake of doing random moves, and none of them had any impact on the story of the match.

And, again, one of the criticisms of my man Cena is "limited moveset". Watching Nigel in this match, I remember four moves. A punch, the Diamond Cutter off the top rope, the move where he propped himself up on the turnbuckle, and a clothesline/lariat. Now, I'll be the first to say that moveset has nothing to do with a good wrestler, but again, next time someone talks about how Cena sucks, and ROH is awesome, I now have ammunition to fire back.

I thought in the whole match, the best thing they did is when they were standing toe to toe, beating the hell out of each other. It seemed real, unchoreographed, and presented the image of two guys doing anything they can to win. It was one of the better parts of the match. In the beginning they kept doing all these reversals and stuff, and it was SO fake looking. Like, Danielson has Nigel in the overhand wristlock, and while Nigel spends 5 minutes reversing it, Danielson just stands there and waits. Completely unrealistic and totally choreographed looking. Like I said, they would be better off doing more spots like the one with the punchs, or the ones with the slaps, where I truly can see two guys really going at it.


I know there is a lot of Danielson bashing in this post. But, I tried to give him another chance, I really did. But, I just don't see what is so great about him. Keep in mind, this is not the first match I've seen, but also keep in mind I haven't seen all of his matches. But, this match, despite its hype from several fans I know, was average, at best.

So, what did other people think about this match? Admittedly, I do not know the backstory to the match, and so there may be elements that I am missing out on. I would love to hear another person's opinion of this match, especially one that considers them self a fan of "TRUE wrestling" and considers themself to be a REAL wrestling fan.

 

[JoshK1985]

Thank God there is somone else out there who doesn't like Danielson. I think he is overrated. I think he is a decent wrestler but not the greateast in the world that gets thrown around when his name is mentioned. I'm going to give him another shot myself. I have the chance too see him live twice in the next couple months and I plan to see him atleast once. So at that time I will give him another shot, but right now i think he is OVERRATED. Just because your trained by HBK doesn't make you good.

 

[Bernkastel]

Well Slyfox I respect everything you said and more, but IMO the Cattle Mutilation is a very legit submission move. I'm no doctor, but having both of your arms and shoulders stretched up behind your back at a weird angle must hurt like fuck, as I've tried it and I could barely get my arms to bend halfway behind my back. The human body isn't supposed to bend that way, as your arms and shoulders aren't built for that kind of stress. Danielson applies the move at an angle which further torques an opponents shoulders as he makes his opponent's arms touch behind their back. So really the move is an legit painful maneuver and if you don't believe me just have someone force your arms behind your back. The move is basically a modified double chickenwing, a maneuver that is very devastating not only in pro wrestling but martial arts such as Jujitsu and Judo.

 

[Uncle Sam]

There's going to be some friction now. McGuinness/Danielson is, in my honest opinion, a fantastic pure wrestling match and Unified proudly takes a place in my wrestling DVD collection. Before we'd get into this, I'd like to say I'd be very interested to see you review Aries/Strong vs. The Briscoes from the same night, one of the best tag matches I've ever seen.

Well, we'll start off with Nigel having a limited moveset. I couldn't agree more with you. Although I've seen a fair variety of moves in his overall set, he rarely uses more than European Uppercuts and Lariats, along with the headstand in the corner and the Tower of London (the "Diamond Cutter" out of the corner that you had previously mentioned). However, with the exception of the Tower Of London obviously, he does several variations to these moves, often subtle, and I think that makes him a relatively good ring technician, although it robs him of the title of "Ultimate Genius".

As for Danielson, well, I can see how you can bash him for no-selling in this match. However, I honestly believe he is one of the best wrestlers in the world. In fact, I recommend Joe/Danielson vs. Kenta/What'shisface at "Best In The World" for a better example of this.

Now for the ring psychology and no-selling itself. Well, these are Ring Of Honor superstars performing in front of Ring Of Honor fans where the two titles are being Unified in ROH's first appearance in Britain. They're going to go all out to entertain the fans and not overuse heel tactics and spend all their time wriving on the floor when there's a new audience to be won over, when these two men are out to prove their worth to the world. After seeing the preceeding match, you'd probably understand more clearly whey they had to do what they did, they couldn't be outdone in their night, although - in my opinion - they ultimately were.

Then there's something you completely forgot to mention, the fans. I'm from Britain myself and I can tell you, the first time I ever saw this match I was cheering along with the crowd in support of McGuinness, it is genuinely at fever pitch. Speaking of Cattle Mutilation, what the hell's up with the Five Star Knuckle Shuffle? Just kidding, we'll save that for another time.

You also failed to mention another negative point - the ending. I absolutely hated the ending. I hate it when ROH and other similar companies come out with these "decisions" just to please the smarks. I'll refrain from saying exactly what happens in case someone hasn't seen it but, for crying out loud, I want to see a pinfall or submission!

 

[X]

I think one thing you're doing wrong here Slyfox is you're coming into this match with a WWE point of mind. What I mean by that, is the WWE works a vastly different kind of match then indies do. WWE caters to its audience, who want to see heel tactics and guys writhing on the ground in pain, they want to see psychology in a match.

In an ROH match it's vastly different. There is no ring psychology, no heel tactics, no writhing in pain. It's about athleticism, not about storytelling. WWE matches tell a story---ROH matches showcase amazing athleticism and spectacular moves that you will never see in the WWE because they're banned or wrestlers don't know how to do them.

I'm not saying one is better then the other, but they're very different styles and I think you came into that match expecting a story to be told, instead of just appreciating the ring chemistry and great athleticism and moveset both of these men have.

Until next time....Bryan Danielson is still better then John Cena

 

[Slyfox696]

There's going to be some friction now. McGuinness/Danielson is, in my honest opinion, a fantastic pure wrestling match and Unified proudly takes a place in my wrestling DVD collection. Before we'd get into this, I'd like to say I'd be very interested to see you review Aries/Strong vs. The Briscoes from the same night, one of the best tag matches I've ever seen.

We're going to have to disagree on this match then. And, when I get the time, I'll look at the Briscoes vs. the TNA rejects...errr, I mean...Aries/Strong. ;-). I'm just kidding.

Now for the ring psychology and no-selling itself. Well, these are Ring Of Honor superstars performing in front of Ring Of Honor fans where the two titles are being Unified in ROH's first appearance in Britain. They're going to go all out to entertain the fans and not overuse heel tactics and spend all their time wriving on the floor when there's a new audience to be won over, when these two men are out to prove their worth to the world. After seeing the preceeding match, you'd probably understand more clearly whey they had to do what they did, they couldn't be outdone in their night, although - in my opinion - they ultimately were.

The best wrestling matches, the ones that entertain the fans the most, are the ones with a compelling story. Matches that show people jumping off ropes and a bunch of different drawn out reversals can be fun, but they are always going to hit a ceiling. I mean, compare that match to Savage/Warrior from Wrestlemania 7. Which one is better? The one with a bunch of moves that don't make sense and where they are not "overusing heel tactics", or the one that drew you in, made you a part of the show, made you forget you were watching a wrestling match, but rather you were watching real life? I'll take Savage/Warrior any day of the week. And that's what a main-event/championship match SHOULD try to do.

Then there's something you completely forgot to mention, the fans. I'm from Britain myself and I can tell you, the first time I ever saw this match I was cheering along with the crowd in support of McGuinness, it is genuinely at fever pitch. Speaking of Cattle Mutilation, what the hell's up with the Five Star Knuckle Shuffle? Just kidding, we'll save that for another time.

But, that match was going to be at a fever pitch anyways. It wasn't at a fever pitch because of the match, but rather because the fans are diehards who were going to suck the ...umm...big toe... of ROH regardless. The match itself wasn't what made the fans into a fever pitch. The acrobatics maybe helped, but the story isn't what did it.

You also failed to mention another negative point - the ending. I absolutely hated the ending. I hate it when ROH and other similar companies come out with these "decisions" just to please the smarks. I'll refrain from saying exactly what happens in case someone hasn't seen it but, for crying out loud, I want to see a pinfall or submission!

Not to be contrary for the sake of it, but I actually liked the ending. I forgot to put that in my original post. I thought the ending was actually very good, and if it had been in a better match, could have been a classic ending. But, again, the story of the match did not match the ending, which can ruin an entire match.

I think one thing you're doing wrong here Slyfox is you're coming into this match with a WWE point of mind. What I mean by that, is the WWE works a vastly different kind of match then indies do. WWE caters to its audience, who want to see heel tactics and guys writhing on the ground in pain, they want to see psychology in a match.

In an ROH match it's vastly different. There is no ring psychology, no heel tactics, no writhing in pain. It's about athleticism, not about storytelling. WWE matches tell a story---ROH matches showcase amazing athleticism and spectacular moves that you will never see in the WWE because they're banned or wrestlers don't know how to do them.

The problem with the indy style in that instance is that ANYONE can do it. I can go out in the backyard right now and use all the moves that Danielson did (except for the flying front flip...I'm not that athletic). But someone with better athleticism than me could. So, then, where's the appeal of paying to watch someone else do the exact same thing I could?

Let's use an example. High school football vs. NFL football. Now, both have the same fundamental ideas and goals and concepts. But, high school football is no where NEAR as complex or filled with as much strategy as the NFL. The NFL is CLEARLY the superior league, with superior players, running superior offensive and defensive schemes.

ROH is high school football. WWE is the NFL (only with a much more lax drug testing policy...). Any and everyone can play high school football. But only the ones who work harder and develop the advanced skills and abilities can play NFL. Sure, there are some people who prefer to watch high school football to the NFL. I'm one of them. But, I'm not going to say that high school is better than NFL, because it's not true.

I understand that ROH appeals to a different audience, and that Danielson is playing to that audience, as well he should. But, it prevents him from being a better wrestler. And, when Rey Mysterio is running the advanced NFL/WWE playbook, working psychology and storytelling in his matches, and AmDrag is still running the high school FB Dive play...then, I'm going to say that Mysterio is better.

Until next time....Bryan Danielson is still better then John Cena

Try telling that to the 3.5 million people who watch Raw every Monday night .

 

[Uncle Sam]

Well, I'd like to see anyone do an inch-perfect dragon suplex or a flying lariat. And, if you watch the other match, I'd also like to see anyone do a 450 Splash or Rolling Senton. Still, I suppose we have different tastes. I like my wrestling like my porn (can't believe I just said that). I expect there to be a story there, but I couldn't care less if it plays a part in the action.

 

[Bernkastel]

Pretty much everyone does the 450 splash now. Its to the point where most women, notably Jillian Hall, can do it without much trouble. Hell some men are doing the 900 splash now.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I'll get you for this Echelon. God help me, as long as it takes, I'll get you for this! Still, like I said, I'm entertained by intelligent, non-story orientated wrestling with paced, scientific wrestling, a crowd that's into it and the occasional insane stunt. Although I always see weapons as a sign of desperation, I'm not opposed to a 30 foot fall. Those are my tastes meaning I love ROH and, to a lesser extent, TNA. What are your tastes?

 

[Bernkastel]

Whats to get, the 450 splash isn't that impressive of a move IMO. No I take that back, IT IS an impressive move, but it just seems that since everyone uses it now it doesn't have that overall special feeling that it used to when only a select few used it. Same with the SSP and the Moonsault. Its almost like their just regular moves.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Yea, well, I'm a mark for anyone that can do a high-flying move that involves a flip of some kind. What about Roderick Strong's standing moonsault? Or any move in Jack Evans' repetoire? Do THEY impress you!? Or are you, as I often suspected, unpleasable?

 

[Bernkastel]

Yeah sure they do, and I didn't mean that those moves weren't impressive, they are, they just don't seem as special now that just about everyone can do them.

 

[Slyfox696]

Yea, well, I'm a mark for anyone that can do a high-flying move that involves a flip of some kind.

Then I have the perfect place for you, a place that's been around for a long time, but in the last few years has kind of faded into obscurity.


It's called a circus.


I, on the other hand, prefer good wrestling. But, to each their own.

 

[X]

Err....excuse me....but WHAT?! Slyfox....how the fuck are the moves that the ROH guys use easy? Theres a reason they use the hardest and most dangerous moves in ROH---other promotions like the WWE won't! It's a niche they fill, where you can get something you just don't ever, ever, ever, EVER get from the WWE.

You can criticize the indy style all you like, but me and many others still prefer it. It's all about opinion, neither is superior then the other, it's all subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Uncle Sam]

The best wrestling matches... are the ones with a compelling story.

Then I have the pefect place for you, something that's been around for a long time.


It's called a soap opera.


Ouch. Burned.

 

[Slyfox696]

Then I have the pefect place for you, something that's been around for a long time.


It's called a soap opera.


Ouch. Burned.

I didn't realize soap opera routinely told their stories with larger than life characters using highly developed forms of athleticism to do so.

I have seen plenty of circus performers do a bunch of flips though.

 

[Uncle Sam]

You've obviously never seen Eastenders.

 

[Da Vinci's Nightmare]

Could anyone please point me in the direction of a good Bryan Danielson match? I have never seen him in action and he's been talked about so much and is possibly going to be the new NWA Title, so he must be pretty good, even though the NWA Title isn't as important as it was

 

[Slyfox696]

Could anyone please point me in the direction of a good Bryan Danielson match? I have never seen him in action and he's been talked about so much and is possibly going to be the new NWA Title, so he must be pretty good, even though the NWA Title isn't as important as it was

Sure, no problem...

[youtube]nf-kiUcAdVI[/youtube]

 

[Shocky]

Haha, I knew that was coming.

Ring of Honor is a completely different creature then the WWE or TNA. It is pseudo-wrestling, minus the soap opera. You have to realize what you are watching when you turn it on. It's not the big leagues, and I don't think they try to be. It's more of a Japanese style then anything. There are still face/heel skirmishes to a degree, but as someone has said, it's built more around athleticism then storytelling. It's a chance for fundamentalist to enjoy wrestling.

I enjoy ROH, but I can see where people call it a circus act. I am one of those guys that feel just because someone can do a moonsault, doesn't mean they are the greatest wrestler alive today. I think it's a bit harsh to call them circus acts. If you want to call it a circus, I'd much rather watch the aerial stunts then the clowns all trying to get out of a midget car. The WWE is just as big of a circus, but on a whole different level. The story telling is absurd, the promos laughable, but in the wrong ways, and the in ring action, bland to say the least.

ROH is simply an alternative, not a solution to wrestlings problem as a whole.

 

[RVDgurl]

ROH is simply an alternative, not a solution to wrestlings problem as a whole.

For me, ROH is the solution to the wrestling problem. ROH gets back to wrestling at a time where the WWE is over saturated with long drawn out promos, skits, interviews, etc. ROH has just enough of these things so the fans can follow the storyline, but the focus is still on the matches. Yes people- ROH has storylines, some of which have been worked for nearly a year. When is the last time the WWE let a storyline play out more than a few months?

As far as Bryan Danielson goes, he is one of the most talented guys out there. Period. For those of you who don't like his work in ROH (I still can't understand how one doesn't like his ROH stuff), watch some of the stuff he has done in FIP or ECCW. When working those promotions, he plays more of the heel role and works alot more psychology with his gimmick.

 

[Da Vinci's Nightmare]

Guessing you like Danielson RVDgurl, so please please point me in the right direction to some of his good match's.

Personally I have only seen a few ROH match's but i did like the product. It was very entertaining, it got right down to business. with out any of the add-on's that anoys the crap out of you.

Ring of Honor is the No Frills of the Wrestling World

 

[RVDgurl]

Guessing you like Danielson RVDgurl, so please please point me in the right direction to some of his good match's.

Yep. I'm a huge Danielson fan. If you are willing to spend $20, I suggest you get his Best Of DVD from the ROH website. All the matches are great. If you just want to watch on YouTube or whatever, then look up some of his matches against Austin Aries. The two work very well together.

 

[Shocky]

I get what your saying RVD Gurl, but the main focus of ROH is the athleticism in the matches, which I enjoy, not the storylines.

The comparisons to ECW are scary. It is the company us smarks are in love with right now, much like ECW. We see it as the solution to wrestlings problems, which I wish the WWE, and yes TNA, would take themselves and the in ring stuff more seriously.

The problem is, only a few of us enjoy ROH. It is niche programming, much like ECW was/is. It satisfies us long time fans, because we want to see that type of wrestling. The thing is though, Wrestling has destroyed its own credibility as a "sport" stateside. Long ago the dreaded phrase of Sports Entertainment enveloped all of wrestling along with it, not just the WWE.

People will never see it more then WWE Lite in the mainstream, as much as it sucks, and as much as the in ring product is better then the WWE. People will never take it seriously.

I like ROH, I love what it stands for. I don't get to see many Japanese style matches here stateside, ROH provides that. But it is niche programming. It can't exist out of it's bubble it lives in now, much like ECW. Expansion killed ECW. ECW would probably still be in business today if Paul E. realized he couldn't go against the big boys, and to stay off of cable. ROH is the same way, a few monthly pay per views for ten bucks, that's great, but the second they make their talent into attractions, the WWE is going to come in, and bleed it dry, much like what happened with ECW.

 

[Slyfox696]

For me, ROH is the solution to the wrestling problem. ROH gets back to wrestling at a time where the WWE is over saturated with long drawn out promos, skits, interviews, etc. ROH has just enough of these things so the fans can follow the storyline, but the focus is still on the matches. Yes people- ROH has storylines, some of which have been worked for nearly a year. When is the last time the WWE let a storyline play out more than a few months?

To be fair, the WWE has a weekly television show (well, 3, but for an individual storyline), seen by millions of viewers all over the world, with at least one PPV every month. 3 or 4 months of a WWE feud is anywhere from 15-20 shows for which a feud gets played out, all close together as well. If ROH averages 2 shows a month, 16 shows last 8 months. So, in many ways it is very similar.

I don't have a problem with the ROH theory of wrestling promotion. I like the idea. The problem is the guys they have working that concept aren't close to being great wrestlers, despite what so many fans believe. It is possibly to put on great wrestling matches, complete with actual storytelling and psychology without needing all the WWE fanfare. But, so many of ROH guys don't understand that, or don't do it. They think that they have to do a bunch of cool looking moves and chain wrestling etc, to be doing "good wrestling".

The no frills, strictly wrestling approach I have no problem with. They just don't pull it off very well.