Should Vince have dumped Shawn Michaels in 1997?

[THTRobtaylor]

Vince was between a rock and a hard place at the time... Shawn was notoriously bad at doing business, having to be stripped of titles repeatedly and suspended on several occasions... But he had the charisma that Bret simply didn't have... Bret had all the ability in the world, the international fans... but he just got dull... in the cold light of day that Vince was facing, how could you bank on a guy that had barely changed in nearly 10 years...

Everything about Bret was stale, from his promos to his standard 5 move finish... The glasses were also badly out of fashion... Shawn on the other hand was innovative, charismatic and had that x-factor that Bret didn't... He was a pain in the ass... but it was one that you wanted to pay attention to...his matches were getting more and more stellar as time went on and the chemistry with Hunter was clearly something that could be huge...

Bret complains he was sabotaged in his book and the documentary and he was, but by his own complacency... He could have learned some phrases, cut his hair, changed his colours, different glasses... a new finisher perhaps? Red attire instead of Pink...

Undertaker did it and it saved his career...he changed his whole attitude and gimmick, and has added new finishers twice during his run... Rock changed his image several times... Angle cut his hair and it kept them fresh...god Christian was no one till he cut his!!! Bret was at the end of 97, the same worker he was in 87... and that made Vince's decision easy...

 

[Coco]

^^ I don't see that at all. Bret was not stale, IMO. He was working on a new character direction that was a year old at the most and had drawn great ratings at key points in the US vs. Canada feud. Bret had changed just enough, so I don't think him being stale was a huge problem as he could still draw better than Shawn. Complacency has nothing to do with it.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The heel turn wasn't working... Bret said so himself... it was born out of the necessity of Austin getting over so quickly rather than any coherent planning... Something as simple as blood red tights and a shorter cut would have made the difference...a different finisher... the Hart Foundation itself was the only real thing that worked, and then it was doing more for Pillman, Davey and Owen than it was for Bret...

In essence Bret didn't change and he has always insisted that...he is right... irony is that was the thing that made him expendible... he couldn't move with the times the way others could...

 

[ssvegita77]

The bottomline is this, Bret couldn't/wouldn't change with the times. I remember when his heel turn was going on, I thought it was decent but I couldn't see him getting back over as a face. The audience spoke up and they picked Austin & DX and lost interest in the main guy who was the opposite of every depraved thing those characters stood for.

Shawn was younger and ushering in the attitude era. Keep in mind that Shawn did have Vince's ear. If he lost him as a performer he would have also been losing him as a consultant/idea man. If he ended up in WCW, I too think that it would have been the nail in the WWF coffin. Hart got buried for various reasons, one being that he's always been a kind of loner. HBK would've walked into WCW with alot of friends already over there, making sure he was taken care of.

People always talk about HBK not making money in 96', and thats true. However Hall & Nash left to form the most dominant faction/storyline of the 90's, and Bret took a vacation. I love Owen, respect Davey,...Vader was...there and Taker was busy getting Foley over. He lost the two guys he had the most history with, that he could have gotten the most story out of. I'm sorry but I'm the biggest HBK mark i've ever met but even I'm not surprised that he could not compete with the NWO. Steve was still the ringmaster, Goldust was never a viable option as champion and the Warrior...well....you know.

 

[Emmet]

Karma bit Vince in the ass to be honest by getting rid of Bret, because he lost HBK what 5 months later? for the next 4 years at least, and by that stage the Attitude era was over. Bret didn't like the Attitude era sure, but he still could have been very valueable to the company, imagine a Rock vs Bret fued, or a Ministry of Darkness vs Hart Foundation fued, would have been brilliant. Bret could have made so many other men in the Attitude era besides Austin, which in the end up neither him nor HBK got to achieve.

 

[Slam Master]

Vince was between a rock and a hard place at the time... Shawn was notoriously bad at doing business, having to be stripped of titles repeatedly and suspended on several occasions... But he had the charisma that Bret simply didn't have... Bret had all the ability in the world, the international fans... but he just got dull... in the cold light of day that Vince was facing, how could you bank on a guy that had barely changed in nearly 10 years...

Everything about Bret was stale, from his promos to his standard 5 move finish... The glasses were also badly out of fashion... Shawn on the other hand was innovative, charismatic and had that x-factor that Bret didn't... He was a pain in the ass... but it was one that you wanted to pay attention to...his matches were getting more and more stellar as time went on and the chemistry with Hunter was clearly something that could be huge...

Bret complains he was sabotaged in his book and the documentary and he was, but by his own complacency... He could have learned some phrases, cut his hair, changed his colours, different glasses... a new finisher perhaps? Red attire instead of Pink...

Undertaker did it and it saved his career...he changed his whole attitude and gimmick, and has added new finishers twice during his run... Rock changed his image several times... Angle cut his hair and it kept them fresh...god Christian was no one till he cut his!!! Bret was at the end of 97, the same worker he was in 87... and that made Vince's decision easy...

The first thing you said about Michaels isn't true. He spent the first 3 years of his singles career losing...He lost the IC belt to Marty on RAW but won it back after. Lets look at why he forfeited the titles he did: He tested positive for steroids which led to a suspension, so they had to put the belt on someone else cus he couldn't compete. Next, he got his ass pounded badly by a bunch of marines that resulted in head trauma and a mild conscussion so he couldn't compete.

He dropped the belt to Sid at Survivor Series 96 and won it back at the Rumble. He blew his knee out, Dr. James Andrews TOLD him he needed time off to rehab or surgery, Austin was there while he rehabbed, so they got the belt off him. With a broken back, he lost cleanly to Steve Austin before leaving, in his last match ever, thats the real way to do business.

People say he lost in cheap ways, look at Bret-Fuji threw salt in his eyes, Owen cheated and threw in the towel, Austin cheated with a chair so he lost to Sid, he had to go to overtime with Shawn so it made it look like he didn't really lose.

Shawn was just protective of his spot and a very insecure drug-addict at the time. He was the young buck that ran support to Bret while he had almost 4 years as "the guy". Shawn lost to Bret several times in 1992 and in tag matches during that time period.

 

[jericho3150]

Karma bit Vince in the ass to be honest by getting rid of Bret, because he lost HBK what 5 months later? for the next 4 years at least, and by that stage the Attitude era was over.

I think if your going to drag Karma into this you need to look at the big picture..

Vince became a BILLIONAIRE... his ratings soared and he ended up buying WCW

Shawn broke his back ..found god..married his wife.. had 2 kids...got off pain pills... came back to WWE and has been amazing for the past 7 years.. is regarded by many peers as the best in-ring performer of all time.

Bret... got kicked in the head and had to retire.. Brother died.. friends all died.. got divorced twice..estranged from his kids.. had a stroke.. and the Hart family is all but destroyed...

If there is a such thing as karma... Bret got the worst of it.

 

[dxparza]

I think if your going to drag Karma into this you need to look at the big picture..

Vince became a BILLIONAIRE... his ratings soared and he ended up buying WCW

Shawn broke his back ..found god..married his wife.. had 2 kids...got off pain pills... came back to WWE and has been amazing for the past 7 years.. is regarded by many peers as the best in-ring performer of all time.

Bret... got kicked in the head and had to retire.. Brother died.. friends all died.. got divorced twice..estranged from his kids.. had a stroke.. and the Hart family is all but destroyed...

If there is a such thing as karma... Bret got the worst of it.

Lol. I love the way you put this, I couldn't have put it any better. Bret didn't wanna do the right thing and Karma bit him square on the ass... He's sitting at home, while Shawn Michaels is stealing the show at WM25 and goes home to his beautiful wife and kids..

Good choice Vince!! You through out the garbage before he ruined your company..

 

[rajkaregakhalsa]

vince felt shawn was the right guy to keep cuz he was better suited for the future of the attitude era. in hindsight vince errored as shawn got injured six months later at WM14 and was out for over 4 yrs. vince lost both shawn and bret. if bret had stayed w/ wwf, wcw wud've still disintegrated and vince wud've still won the ratings war. let's not forget, it was bret that launched the attitude era. vince has even stated that the attitude era began when bret pushed vince on his keester. the attitude era in wwf took off during the double switch- Bret vs Austin at WM13. shawn never was a draw. ratings went down after shawn won the wwf title after WM12, and shawn was injured when wwf overtook wcw in the ratings. by losing bret vince screwed vince. had bret stayed, the bret vs austin fued wud have continued- i think WM14 wud have been better w/ Bret- Austin as the main event. the Bret vs HBK fued wud've continued as well. although vince wud eventually profit w/ the monday night wars and demise of wcw, vince lost a lot of potential revenue by releasing Bret.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The first thing you said about Michaels isn't true. He spent the first 3 years of his singles career losing...He lost the IC belt to Marty on RAW but won it back after. Lets look at why he forfeited the titles he did: He tested positive for steroids which led to a suspension, so they had to put the belt on someone else cus he couldn't compete. Next, he got his ass pounded badly by a bunch of marines that resulted in head trauma and a mild conscussion so he couldn't compete.

He dropped the belt to Sid at Survivor Series 96 and won it back at the Rumble. He blew his knee out, Dr. James Andrews TOLD him he needed time off to rehab or surgery, Austin was there while he rehabbed, so they got the belt off him. With a broken back, he lost cleanly to Steve Austin before leaving, in his last match ever, thats the real way to do business.

People say he lost in cheap ways, look at Bret-Fuji threw salt in his eyes, Owen cheated and threw in the towel, Austin cheated with a chair so he lost to Sid, he had to go to overtime with Shawn so it made it look like he didn't really lose.

Shawn was just protective of his spot and a very insecure drug-addict at the time. He was the young buck that ran support to Bret while he had almost 4 years as "the guy". Shawn lost to Bret several times in 1992 and in tag matches during that time period.

That is innacurate... Shawn nearly never did business in those days... He was fired by WWE after his first day... then over time he grew into a spot but the recurrant theme was there in his early runs... he won the IC title, then didn't lose it... leading to a tourney... yes he did get in the marine fight, but he still didn't lose that belt...he handed it over and then... he had 2 tag reigns with Diesel, both he never jobbed... they vacated and with Stone Cold in 96... oops vacated again...

THEN he handed over a World title... then he made Davey Boy job for the Euro belt in England, only to hand it over to Triple H!

Do I need to go on?

 

[rajkaregakhalsa]

another reason vince shud've kept bret is because he was liked by everyone in the dressing room except for dx. bret has a history of putting over lesser known wrestlers which in return is good for overall business (eg, owen, bulldog, austin, hbk, mountie). the clique/dx was only interested in putting one another over and making $ for themself at the expense of the entire locker room... vince was at his peak when hunter and hbk were not running things in the late 90's and early part of this decade- this was when the rock, austin and undertaker were running things. hunter and hbk over the last several yrs continue to help themselves at the expense of burying a lot of up and coming talent. as a result wwe programming is now stale which is reflected in the ratings. i predict tna will compete w/ wwe soon and trigger another war which will be good for business and more importantly the wrestling fans

 

[jericho3150]

in hindsight vince errored as shawn got injured six months later at WM14 and was out for over 4 yrs.

In what way was it an error?? Losing Shawn was simply bad luck.. He made the right choice with the situation that was presented to him at the time.

if bret had stayed w/ wwf, wcw wud've still disintegrated and vince wud've still won the ratings war.

If Vince had kept Bret WWF would not have its main backstage voice pushing the WWF to go attitude.. It wouldn;t have had Shawn and Hunter pushing the limits of what could be done on TV.. Infact the biggest influence in the lockeroom (Bret) would be fighting against the adult storylines and the half naked girls.. Also you wouldn't have the Screwjob which led to creation of Evil Vince.. and Vince feuding with Austin had a lot to do with the WWF ratings skyrocketing..

shawn never was a draw.

Bret was never a draw... Both were never huge draws by themselves.. Bret headlining shows have draw both the least bought WWF PPV of all time and the Worst wrestlemania buyrate of all time... There was a reason Vince kept taking the belt away from Bret... There was a reason he let Bret go to his competitor.. Bret wasn't a draw...

ratings went down after shawn won the wwf title after WM12,

Rating actually spiked pretty big for WWF after WM12.. they started dropping 2 months later after Razor Ramon and Diesel left showed up on WCW and Bret was out.. and Shawn had no main event heels to work with..

although vince wud eventually profit w/ the monday night wars and demise of wcw, vince lost a lot of potential revenue by releasing Bret.

I think Vince did quite well without Bret... I mean WCW had him and Im sure they regret signing him to such a big contract just to have him come in and fail pretty badly..

 

[jericho3150]

another reason vince shud've kept bret is because he was liked by everyone in the dressing room except for dx.

Awwwwww That adorable.. but thats not business..

bret has a history of putting over lesser known wrestlers which in return is good for overall business (eg, owen, bulldog, austin, hbk, mountie).

Hmmmmm... Well two of those people are family.. one of those he never put over (Austin).. and two of them he made sure they were tainted wins.. The Mountie he had them announce the Bret had a 105 degree temperature and was told not to wrestle by the doctors... So Mountie beating a sick man in no way put him over... Shawn beat Bret clean..then Bret tainted the win by writing in his columns that Shawn didn't "really" beat him because Bret had lasted the 60 mins... Bret has always made sure he looks out for himself... Not too many clean loses in Brets past to non family members..

 

[rajkaregakhalsa]

Jericho3150, I RESPECTFULLYU refute ur points as follows:

1) hindsight= vince pushed bret out, shawn got injured= vince loses both his top heels at the time. if bret was kept, shawn got injured, u still have one of ur top heels= bret.

2) Bret not pushing WWF attitude... here are the facts, 1) Bret did have moral and ethical issues w/ the attitude era but none the less went ahead w/ it. Bret even said it would be good for him to go heel via the anti-american angle so it freshens his character up and doesn't go stale. as i wrote, vince even stated when bret pushed him on his keester the attitude era began and the mr. mcmahon character began. Jerciho3150 ur telling me the Hart Foundation vs the anti-american angle was not attitude- this drew the highest ratings in 1997. by the way the infamous double switch, Hart vs Austin at WM13 was the impetus that propelled Austin- agreed upon by Bret, Austin and Vince.

3) Bret was never a draw... sure during Bret's first two title runs ratings were down- this is due to the steroid scandal. if anything Bret should be commended for carrying the torch for wwf during these dark days- vince has even said that if not for Bret's clean cut image and integrity the wwf may have been done... whenever bret led wwf euro and international tours, they were constantly sold out and to this day bret is still the most recognizable figure overseas over hulk, austin, rock, flair and shawn. Bret is such a bad draw that he bischoff signed him to the most lucrative contract ever w/ wcw- i know ur gonna say bret never did much in wcw- but don't forget vince said wcw wud never know wut to do w/ bret in wcw. bret got buried by backstage politics. infact bret was coming on but then got injured... to this day no wrestler has drawn any bigger than bret on byte this... bret is a poor draw which is why vince and wwe keep kissing bret's ass trying to goad him into doing business w/ wwe again.

4) Ratings spiked after WM12... ur right, they spiked briefly but then people were turned off by shawn's playboy antics and the audience went away in droves. even though razor and diesel left, if shawn was so good he wud've been able to draw ratings- this is the difference between shawn and bret. bret didn't have any so called main event heels to work w/ either during his first two title reigns. bret had to make the heels and was willing to work w/ the lesser known talent unlike shawn. kevin nash and scott hall credit bret hart w/ helping them get over w/ the crowd even though bret beat both hall and nash in their matches. it is interesting during shawn's run in 96 ratings dipped, but then ratings went back up when bret returned late that year... shawn in a storyline interview did say in late 96 that ratings went up during his title reign and vince had no choice but to agree in front of a TV audience- vince cudn't tell the truth live in front of a tv audience because it is bad business.

5) Vince did well after pushing Bret out... i'm not denying that Jerich3150- the fact is he did do well. but, he cud've done better by keeping bret. even though mr. mcmahon went on to draw big against austin, if bret had not put over austin as perfectly as he did, who wud mr. mcmahon be fighting against. again, i repeat, BRET WAS THE IMPETUS THAT PROPELLED AUSTIN INTO STARDOM- acknowledged by vince, austin and bret. bret vs shawn wud have continuted as well. it is not so much that bret was growing stale, it was more to do w/ the fact that the clique/dx had vince's ear.

7) it is actually a benefit if a wrestler is liked by everyone in the locker room Jericho3150. a wrestler like bret who is willing to work w/ anyone is better for business than a guy like shawn who will only work w/ a select few to benefit himself only.

8) Bret went to the dirt sheets after putting over Shawn at WM12 just to generate more heat to better sell a future bout between Bret vs Shawn. Bret even had Shawn's blessing to do this. Bret wasn't trying to sabotage Shawn, he was only trying to make a potential rematch a better draw. Shawn is the one that turned the story around.

9) As far as Bret not putting over lesser known stars, this is not true at all and who cares if it is family or not- i guess it is bret's fault that bulldog and owen were pretty solid midcard draws who cud've main evented if not for their tragic deaths. bret and being sick to the mountie was vince's idea. bret put over yokozuna, hbk, hhh, owen and bulldog. fyi, even when bret won matches, those wrestlers credited bret w/ gettting them over= austin, diesel, razor etc..

Jericho3150 I enjoy this debate but i RESPECTFULLY think ur only presenting info from one side. i hope this debate continues w/out any of the personal attacks which is sometimes the norm in these forums.

 

[Slam Master]

The Shawn Michaels character and Shawn himself adapted and changed with the times. He's was willing to take the heat and keep on coming. He may have had issues (drugs, insecurity, neurotic) which were his worst and best attributes because they helped the business but hurt his image with his fellow wreslters and the company in general.

I read Bret's book multiple times. Its great and its very detailed, but I'm writing this from what I got out of the book from what Bret revealed in it. If Bret stayed (he could have because Vince said he had the money. The angles he laid out for Bret weren't to his liking; 3 losses to Shawn including Montreal, a win over Shawn for the title on RAW, but a loss to Austin at a PPV for the belt). That means no casket match for Shawn and no broken back, and an altered WWF future. Sure he didn't like the direction of the company, but he also didn't like the fact that he wasn't being looked at as the #1 guy. He was a worker for Vince's company, the company that gave him the opportunity to have all the things he had. Sometimes when people work they don't always like certain things that are going on at the job site, but thats life. Vince must have seen or felt something that would allow him to break the contract to go to the direct competition and it wasn't about money cus he had it. In Vince's eyes Bret wasn't THE hot commodity anymore, or the guy he needed for the future of the company, although he did play a role in laying the foundation for Austin, Michaels, and Undertaker.

Shawn was on the booking committee, but thats only because he was pro-active in all aspects of the WWF at the time; he came up with angles and storylines, helped in production meetings, and gave his input. Bret could have done the same thing if he didn't like the way things were going. Bret barely gave any input on the creative standpoing besides some of the in-ring stuff he said. He sure had the experience. I'm sure if Bret said he wanted to be part of the brain-storming and and creative process and play a role in the booking Vince would've welcomed him with open arms. I bet it also would have helped his relationship with Shawn because they would have been face-to-face with Vince at the same time all the time instead of Vince playing games with both of their heads when the other wasn't around. The office did play a role in their tension.

He Ok'd the heel turn, but didn't really come up with any of the angles. Bret shot down things he didn't like but would never come up with his stuff (besides some phrases during in-ring interviews). He was the guy that came to work and said "what do you have for me?" instead of working on the behind-the-scenes stuff that makes the TV show. I remember in his book he felt uncomfortable saying some of the things the bookers "made him say". If he didn't like it why didn't he do something about it? He felt uncomfortable saying the things he was told to say about Americans and HBK and Hunter being homos, but didn't come up with an alternate.

Don't get me wrong, I like Bret, but he could have stayed if he put personal stuff to the side. he had the heavyweight title for almost 6 months in 1992/93 and for 8 months in 1994; the same lenght that HBK had in 1996. He held it for almost 5 months in 1995/96 before losing to Michaels. He had his time at the top, and during that time in Vince's eyes he didn't produce or Vince wouldn't have wanted the belt off him, or let him go to the direct competition with his blessing. He was a heck of a worker and a great talent. He'sd in my top 3. This is just my opinion based on the facts I've read, heard, and seen.

 

[jericho3150]

1) hindsight= vince pushed bret out, shawn got injured= vince loses both his top heels at the time. if bret was kept, shawn got injured, u still have one of ur top heels= bret.

First off Bret didn't have to leave... he chose to leave. Vince had told Bret that the money situation had changed and he could keep him. They both left that day thinking Bret was staying... there were 2 weeks that Vince thought Bret was staying with him end of story... Bret got a call from WCW and HE left.

Secondly there's no way you can claim Vince made the wrong choice based upon an unpredictable freak inring accident..

At the time Shawn was having some of the best matches in the business..was a creative force backstage.. was a driving force in the new direction of the company.. was younger.. his only real downside is that he was a douche..

Thats like saying someone on United flight 93 made a mistake by booking that flight... well it really wasn't a mistake as much as it was terrible luck. But at the time that flight was the best option to get you where you wanted to go.

3) Bret was never a draw... sure during Bret's first two title runs ratings were down- this is due to the steroid scandal.

Why is it ok to justify WWF's rating plummeting after Hogan left and Bret was the champ..?? But when Shawns ratings dropped after losing Bret..Diesel.and Razor Ramon... and was competing against the NWO it all gets blamed on HBK??

whenever bret led wwf euro and international tours, they were constantly sold out and to this day bret is still the most recognizable figure overseas over hulk, austin, rock, flair and shawn.

Bret is more recognizable overseas than Hulk Hogan or Flair??? I don't think thats an accurate statement... Infact on that list Im pretty sure he's 5th on that list over Shawn and under everyone else..

Bret is such a bad draw that he bischoff signed him to the most lucrative contract ever w/ wcw- i know ur gonna say bret never did much in wcw- but don't forget vince said wcw wud never know wut to do w/ bret in wcw. bret got buried by backstage politics. infact bret was coming on but then got injured... to this day no wrestler has drawn any bigger than bret on byte this... bret is a poor draw which is why vince and wwe keep kissing bret's ass trying to goad him into doing business w/ wwe again.

Well part of that was that Vince helped Bret get that deal... Eric thought he was stealing Bret away from Vince when infact Vince was unloading Bret on WCW. And your right I am going to say Bret failed in WCW.. He wasn't the big draw they thought he was going to be..

But you never answered my question... if Bret was a draw why did he draw the worst PPV number of all time and the worst Wrestlemania buyrate of all time??

4) Ratings spiked after WM12... ur right, they spiked briefly but then people were turned off by shawn's playboy antics and the audience went away in droves. even though razor and diesel left, if shawn was so good he wud've been able to draw ratings-

I never said Shawn was a big draw.... Im just saying Bret wasn't either..

but then ratings went back up when bret returned late that year... shawn in a storyline interview did say in late 96 that ratings went up during his title reign and vince had no choice but to agree in front of a TV audience- vince cudn't tell the truth live in front of a tv audience because it is bad business.

Ratings didn't go back up... Bret came back in November..with a 2.5 rating (Raw had a 2.6 rating 3 weeks before without Bret) the ratings were all over the place.. The ratings remained weak throughout the rest of 96.. and early 97..

9) As far as Bret not putting over lesser known stars, this is not true at all and who cares if it is family or not- i guess it is bret's fault that bulldog and owen were pretty solid midcard draws who cud've main evented if not for their tragic deaths. bret and being sick to the mountie was vince's idea. bret put over yokozuna, hbk, hhh, owen and bulldog. fyi, even when bret won matches, those wrestlers credited bret w/ gettting them over= austin, diesel, razor etc..

Its just funny that people claim that Shawn only wanted to work with and put over his friends..and Bret gets a pass on only ever jobbing cleanly to family members...The fact is Bret never lost clean except to family...and even when he lost to HBK he told his fans that he didn't really lose because time ran out.

 

[rajkaregakhalsa]

i made the comment about shawn vs bret ONLY IN HINDSIGHT... Bret didn't want to leave wwf which is why in '96 he signed for less $. the fact that vince said, "i'm going to deliberately breach your contract" suggests vince wanted bret out... it is justifiable to defend bret during his first 2 title reigns for 2 reasons: 1) hogan never passed the torch to bret and flair wud only put over bret at a house show meaning bret had to build himself 2) steroid scandal caused ratings to plummett. bret squarely put the torch in hbk's hand in biggest event of the year and no one did the same for bret. furthermore, u have no issue citing razor and diesel defection to wcw as an excuse during hbk's reigns but fail to mention that a lot of noteworthy stars left wwf to wcw during bret's reign... i've been to germany, italy, uk, japan, india and australia and bret is more recognizable than anyone else... vince has said that ratings did spike w/ the hart foundation/anti-american angle... ur claim that bret losing clean only to family is false. bret put these non family members clean as well- yokozuna, backlund, sid, shawn and lawler... bret cudn't have put shawn over any cleaner then he did in '96... note, bret was only building heat when he went to the dirt sheets and media questionning hbk's win. btw, this was w/ hbk's blessing and it was done to draw for a potential future rematch.

 

[jericho3150]

i made the comment about shawn vs bret ONLY IN HINDSIGHT... Bret didn't want to leave wwf which is why in '96 he signed for less $. the fact that vince said, "i'm going to deliberately breach your contract" suggests vince wanted bret out...

Its not up for debate... There was a point in time where Vince said the money situation changed and he could afford Bret... They left the meeting thinking Bret was staying WWF... Weeks went by.. Bret got a call from WCW... AND HE was the one who chose to leave. He could have easily said to Eric Bischoff "sorry not interested..".. I know he likes to push the blame on everyone else but it comes down to the fact that it was HIS decision..

it is justifiable to defend bret during his first 2 title reigns for 2 reasons: 1) hogan never passed the torch to bret and flair wud only put over bret at a house show meaning bret had to build himself 2) steroid scandal caused ratings to plummett. bret squarely put the torch in hbk's hand in biggest event of the year and no one did the same for bret. furthermore, u have no issue citing razor and diesel defection to wcw as an excuse during hbk's reigns but fail to mention that a lot of noteworthy stars left wwf to wcw during bret's reign...

its not justifiable.. its this bizarre blind love of Bret Hart that sparks excuses for everything in his career. While some stars went to WCW in Brets reign he always had a great undercard.. more times than not in that period the IC title matches were better that the championship matches...
Bret had people like Shawn Michaels.. Mr Perfect.. Randy Savage..Diesel.. Razor Ramon..Lex Luger..The Undertaker..Yokozuna..Bam Bam Bigalow..Jerry the King Lawler.. 123 Kid..Jeff Jarrett..Owen Hart...British Buldog...ect

i've been to germany, italy, uk, japan, india and australia and bret is more recognizable than anyone else...

I've lived in the UK and Germany.. Ive been to all the places you've mentioned(except India) plus 14 more countries... I assure you.. Im more than 100% positive your incorrect about that...

vince has said that ratings did spike w/ the hart foundation/anti-american angle...

ur claim that bret losing clean only to family is false. bret put these non family members clean as well- yokozuna, backlund, sid, shawn and lawler...

Yokozuna- Mr Fuji threw salt in Brets eyes and Yoko pinned him... not clean
Backlund.... Owen tricked Stu and Helen Hart into throwing in the towel.. not clean
Sid.. Bret was attacked by Austin which led to Sid pinning him...not clean
Lawler (not sure which match your talking about but Im willing to bet just about anything It was not clean
Shawn.. He put over clean ...but then later tried to taint the win in multiple interviews and his columns in the sun

Anyone else???

note, bret was only building heat when he went to the dirt sheets and media questionning hbk's win. btw, this was w/ hbk's blessing and it was done to draw for a potential future rematch.

I know thats what Bret says.. But I think Shawns doubts are very justified. First off HBK was the new face of the company and every week Bret is telling all his fans what a piece of shit Shawn is?? How is that supposed to help Shawns title reign?? How is that supposed to help the WWF?? Secondly.. at the time Bret was negotiating with WCW and as Shawn stated "wait...this guy is still trashing me but now he might be leaving??" it didn't make sense. Bret has even stated that he went way to far and was reckless in the things he said about Shawn.

 

[rajkaregakhalsa]

jericho3150:

ur rite it is not up for debate. vince has publicly admitted that he was going to breach bret's contract. vince has admitted that he encourages bret to seek a deal w/ wcw. apart from propelling the attitude era to new heights the other reason for brets heel turn in '97 was to kill bret's character. fyi, wcw never initiated contact w/ bret in '97 because it wud be tampering and vince wud sue. these r facts. wut more do u need to be convinced that vince pushed bret out...
i agree bret had some good performers on the undercard during his reign. u fail to mention that hbk had solid performers on the undercard as well incl.: owen, bulldog, austin, rock, farooq, ahmed, golddust, vader, jake roberts, ted dibiase, billy gunn...
vince admitted and subsequently sent bret to lead int'l tours because he was the best draw and most recognizable wwf wrestler internationally ever...
i think we have a differ on the definition of 'putting over cleanly.' my definition of 'putting over cleanly' is losing the way vince wants u to lose...
yeah bret said these things. it was against the character hbk not michael hickenbottom. i mentioned building heat to create a better draw for a POTENTIAL rematch between the two. come on jericho3150, bret has a lot more integrity than shawn- don't even argue this one w/ me.

 

[jericho3150]

ur rite it is not up for debate. vince has publicly admitted that he was going to breach bret's contract. vince has admitted that he encourages bret to seek a deal w/ wcw. apart from propelling the attitude era to new heights the other reason for brets heel turn in '97 was to kill bret's character. fyi, wcw never initiated contact w/ bret in '97 because it wud be tampering and vince wud sue.

I don't really see your point?? Here is the Meltzer account which Bret says is true..

September 22, 1997 - On the day of the Raw taping at Madison Square Garden, McMahon told Bret Hart flat out that they were going to intentionally breach his contract because they couldn't afford the deal....

OK so he gave Bret a chance to contact WCW to see if he could get his original offer...

October 24, 1997 - McMahon, before the show at Nassau Coliseum, told Hart that the money situation in the company had changed and they would have no problems paying him everything promised in his contract. Hart told McMahon that WCW really hadn't made him a serious offer and that he really didn't want to leave but that he was still uncomfortable doing the job for Michaels in that situation. He left the country for the tour of Oman with the idea that he was staying with the WWF, but knowing due to his window in his contract, he had to make the decision to give notice by midnight on 11/1.

So... they both walked away from this meeting thinking Bret was staying in the WWF.. Vince was going to honor the contract and give him all his money..end of story....

October 31, 1997 Just one day before Hart had to either give notice or stay for another year, Bischoff made a huge concrete offer...Hart neither agreed nor turned down the deal, but gave the impression to WCW that they had a great shot at getting him.

November 1, 1997 - Hart had until midnight to make up his mind. He called McMahon and told him about the WCW offer and said that he wasn't asking for anymore money to stay, but that he wanted to know what his future in the WWF would be over the next two years as an active wrestler and that at this point he was leaning toward accepting the WCW offer.

So like I had said it was BRET that changed things... Not Vince...Not Shawn... Bret chose to leave. He called Vince with only hours left and blindsided him with the news that he might be leaving and he was leaning toward going to WCW.

i agree bret had some good performers on the undercard during his reign. u fail to mention that hbk had solid performers on the undercard as well incl.: owen, bulldog, austin, rock, farooq, ahmed, golddust, vader, jake roberts, ted dibiase, billy gunn...

Owen and Bulldog were good performers but NEVER carried any kind of fued.. Ahmed Johnson was TERRIBLE... FAROOQ was TERRIBLE... Austin had just started to get get over... The Rock was still Rocky Miavia... Vader never got over...Jake Roberts was FAT religious guy.. BIlly Gunn was a cowboy for christ sakes... Ted Dibiase wasn't a wrestler anymore... The roster was full of people that hadn't made it yet or who were way past their primes... Its really not even close...

vince admitted and subsequently sent bret to lead int'l tours because he was the best draw and most recognizable wwf wrestler internationally ever...

Please give a source or a quote were Vince sent Bret because "He is the most famous wrestler in the history of the world".. Id love to see it. But Im willing to bet just about anything that Hulk Hogan..Andre the Giant..Ric Flair.. The Rock.. Steve Austin... are about Bret Hart in this regard.

Are you getting all your information from Brets book??

i think we have a differ on the definition of 'putting over cleanly.' my definition of 'putting over cleanly' is losing the way vince wants u to lose...

Yes I think we have a different take on the phrase..fortunately Im here to enlighten you that a clean win or "going over clean" means that someone beat you straight up.. no outside interference.. no feet on the ropes...It just mean it was a legit pin or submission.

yeah bret said these things. it was against the character hbk not michael hickenbottom. i mentioned building heat to create a better draw for a POTENTIAL rematch between the two. come on jericho3150, bret has a lot more integrity than shawn- don't even argue this one w/ me.

But you see..the only reason you believe Bret has all this integrity is well..because Bret told you so. This again is straight out of his book. Sometimes you can't just look at something and say.. "I like him so I'll believe him...and I don't like that guy so he's a liar" Ive read Brets book.. Ive read Shawns book ..Ive seen tons of interviews..shoots and in the end a lot of Brets side just doesn't make sense. I believe Bret was a proud guy with a big ego.. Someone came and took his spot who he felt was unworthy.. Bret was jealous and took little cheap shots under the radar.. There was no reason for Shawn to attack Bret.. Most of what Shawn did was reactionary..

 

[HBK-aholic]

Looking back Vince obviously made the right decision. At the end of the day, while Shawn helped the Attitude era begin, McMahon needed neither of them and I think as big Hart/Shawn marks we need to remember that. Neither were wrestling in the WWE during the height of business - the Attitude Era. Overall, Shawn's look, style and Charisma is what the WWE were going for. Letting Hart go was a sad day for the business, and sadly his reputation will be tarnished by Montreal.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Bret too was not good at clean jobs... The Lawler match you refer to was when he was DQ'd for not releasing the sharpshooter... Shawn was worse on the whole but I think The Hitman's fate was sealed when he famously asked Vince "How does the story end?" and when Vince asked him how he would do it...

Bret's book is informative but he does put himself (and many of his family) over as "great minds for wrestling", so not being prepared for Vince's response was a bad mistake for Bret.

It comes down to the fact that Shawn was trouble, but the benefits outweighed the negative for Vince... Bret had little upside left in WWE... he had "done it all" and its telling that with all those close to Bret who are supposedly "great minds" that no one could come up with an idea that worked... even Bret himself had no answer...

That Bret didn't have a scenario in mind is frankly bizarre... perhaps more likely he did but it was shot right down as not being very good...and of course he isn't gonna say that in his book.

The irony of course is that with all the money he was paying Bischoff didn't really either... Bret was his vanity signing, the one that said "I can get anyone I choose" and for Vince it was his vanity firing...

 

[Slam Master]

In 1992 when Bret Hart was being pushed to the top with both IC and Heavyweight reigns, Michaels lost to him numerous times including a clean job in the middle of the ring at Survivor Series 1992. Michaels ran second-fiddle to Bret throughout his early singles career. He lost many times during his early singles career. When he earned the right to be "the" guy and be the champ Bret was obviously upset about it. If anything, if they wrestled at WM13 HBK should have went over in that match too. Thats why Vince didn't push for it because he didn't want the belt on Bret and Bret was hounding for the rematch and win for a return favor, and Michaels wasn't 100%. Bret would have really went off if he was slated to lose to HBK again. HBK evolved as a character, was a creative mind backstage, and helped with other aspects of the show. He had input and an opinion that Vince valued. If Bret hated the direction and the angles he should have joined the booking committee with Vince and the clique but he chose to sit by and criticize everything. He judged the rest of them and the storylines but never jumped in to voice his ideas. He was also in the mindset that he should be the number one guy and thats it. Other guys were on the rise, and Shawn was there already and Bret was stubborn about that. I've read both books and watched and read other sources on this matter and its hard to take a side but easy to distinguish the facts from information given. Vince obviously made the right choice, its just sad to see what happened to the Hitman after the WWF.

 

[waylonmercy]

Its safe to say had HBK left WWE for WCW the landscape of wrestling would have changed. I honestly think that if HBK went to WCW and Shawn was very smart about it he could have continued to build on nWo and possibly run WWE out of business. I think Vince was right for letting Bret go. Bret wasn't able to adapt to the new generation of R rated tv. I thought he was awesome though in his American Heel/Worldwide Face gimmick but Bret wanted his legacy to be a certain way and he definitely wouldn't have fit in with the Attitude WWE. Of course WCW blew their greatest chance to stab WWE in the heart by screwing up Bret's debut. Had they done a surprise Bret appearance where he shot on Vince after joining nWo it could have brought more viewers to WCW. I just remmeber him coming out in a convertible and being a mid-card performer which wasn't what Bret should have been.

 

[SAVE_YOURSELVES_111]

OK so he gave Bret a chance to contact WCW to see if he could get his original offer...

I still say it was a conspiracy to this day, from Shawn and Vince to get Bret out. Basically Vince had to choose, he chose Shawn! So Bret felt unwanted, and useless! Do you blame him for wanting to leave??

So... they both walked away from this meeting thinking Bret was staying in the WWF.. Vince was going to honor the contract and give him all his money..end of story....

End of story?? What are you a WWE DVD?? Bret still wanted to see what was mapped out for him, there's nothing wrong with that!

So like I had said it was BRET that changed things... Not Vince...Not Shawn... Bret chose to leave. He called Vince with only hours left and blindsided him with the news that he might be leaving and he was leaning toward going to WCW.

Hours left?? Umm, Vince knew the deadline, Bret never promised Vince anything! So don't give me this blindsided B.S! And in that very same conversation, Vince had mapped out what was left for Bret, and it didn't sound very good to Bret, and speaking as a fan, reading what Bret said in his book, Bret would've gotten lost in the shuffle pretty quick! I understand he was getting older, but I still think he had a lot to offer the business, for at least another 3 years.

Owen and Bulldog were good performers but NEVER carried any kind of fued.. Ahmed Johnson was TERRIBLE... FAROOQ was TERRIBLE... Austin had just started to get get over... The Rock was still Rocky Miavia... Vader never got over...Jake Roberts was FAT religious guy.. BIlly Gunn was a cowboy for christ sakes... Ted Dibiase wasn't a wrestler anymore... The roster was full of people that hadn't made it yet or who were way past their primes... Its really not even close...

Well, sorry but Ahmed was over like a mofo, I don't care how bad he was! He may have been a bad "worker", fine I'll agree to that...but the guy's popularity was soaring to major heights!

Please give a source or a quote were Vince sent Bret because "He is the most famous wrestler in the history of the world".. Id love to see it. But Im willing to bet just about anything that Hulk Hogan..Andre the Giant..Ric Flair.. The Rock.. Steve Austin... are about Bret Hart in this regard.

Are you getting all your information from Brets book??

And I suppose you have a source saying that's not true???

But you see..the only reason you believe Bret has all this integrity is well..because Bret told you so. This again is straight out of his book. Sometimes you can't just look at something and say.. "I like him so I'll believe him...and I don't like that guy so he's a liar" Ive read Brets book.. Ive read Shawns book ..Ive seen tons of interviews..shoots and in the end a lot of Brets side just doesn't make sense. I believe Bret was a proud guy with a big ego.. Someone came and took his spot who he felt was unworthy.. Bret was jealous and took little cheap shots under the radar.. There was no reason for Shawn to attack Bret.. Most of what Shawn did was reactionary..

Reactionary...are you shtting me??? Shawn's repuation, stated, PUBLICLY, by NUMEROUS sources, that he was extremely difficult!! Shawn AGREED to let Bret take those shots, AGREED! And the shots were personal! If Bret wanted to take personal pot shots at Shawn, he would've called him a "Pill popping jackass". None of Bret's claims have been denied or rebuked by anyone! Yet Shawn's has!