Should Vince have dumped Shawn Michaels in 1997?

[SAVE_YOURSELVES_111]

Bret is more recognizable overseas than Hulk Hogan or Flair??? I don't think thats an accurate statement... Infact on that list Im pretty sure he's 5th on that list over Shawn and under everyone else..

Yeah, I'm sure they're big stars in Germany, Israel, South Africa, Hong Kong and the Phillipines! Sorry, Bret has been statistically proven to be a top draw overseas pal!

But you never answered my question... if Bret was a draw why did he draw the worst PPV number of all time and the worst Wrestlemania buyrate of all time??

Last I checked 'Taker & Sid were main eventing that show!

Its just funny that people claim that Shawn only wanted to work with and put over his friends..and Bret gets a pass on only ever jobbing cleanly to family members...The fact is Bret never lost clean except to family...and even when he lost to HBK he told his fans that he didn't really lose because time ran out.

Yup, that's what we call an "angle" in the wrestling biz! Maybe you heard of it??? Bret gets a pass because he never refused to put anyone over! There's no claims of it from other parties, like there is with Shawn. Bret did what he was asked! Other than Montreal, nobody has ever claimed Bret refusing to lose!

 

[mvp216]

This is a really great, interesting topic discussion, so thanks TC for making this one. At first glance, I felt like you were right. After all, Shawn got injured and was only there a couple more months. Theoretically, Bret could have been wrestling several years later.

However, after more careful consideration, I have to say that Vince was right for business in siding with Shawn. Vince knew that WCW wouldn't know how to use Bret. On the contrary, Shawn would have been in a top spot thanks to Nash and surely would have been a HUGE star in WCW. In addition to that, the Starrcade '97 flop combined with the Tyson/DX vs. Austin lead-up to WM XIV seemed to turn the tide in the war. I don't think that Hart vs. Austin would have drawn as well as the DX/Tyson/Austin. Hart/Austin might have gotten too stale by the time Wrestlemania rolled around. IMO WM XIV really marked the first moment where the WWF was completely transitioned into the Attitude Era.

 

[SAVE_YOURSELVES_111]

However, after more careful consideration, I have to say that Vince was right for business in siding with Shawn. Vince knew that WCW wouldn't know how to use Bret. On the contrary, Shawn would have been in a top spot thanks to Nash and surely would have been a HUGE star in WCW. In addition to that, the Starrcade '97 flop combined with the Tyson/DX vs. Austin lead-up to WM XIV seemed to turn the tide in the war. I don't think that Hart vs. Austin would have drawn as well as the DX/Tyson/Austin. Hart/Austin might have gotten too stale by the time Wrestlemania rolled around. IMO WM XIV really marked the first moment where the WWF was completely transitioned into the Attitude Era.

I have to strongly disagree on some points! The Attitude era was pretty much in full swing at this point! All WM XIV did was put the company back on top! Austin/Hart would've drawn just fine if you ask me, because quoite frankly, that was THE feud of '97, during the downtime, people still wanted to see Austin get his revenge on Hart, and have the last laugh. We all knew Austin was gonna be champ at WM14, everybody knew it and liked it! Wether it was Shawn or wether it was Bret, would not hace made much of a difference.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Bret did what he was asked! Other than Montreal, nobody has ever claimed Bret refusing to lose!

Yeah you kind of refuted your own argument there hon. You can't complain about Shawn not putting anyone over and then talk about Hart doing "What he asked" - it doesn't work like that. Both showed they could be unprofessional - if Hart was the bigger man his fans like to portray him as, wouldn't he have done the right thing by the business and dropped the belt to Shawn, regardless? As it is, both acted like immature babies when they didn't get their own way.

I'm sure McMahon could have chosen Hart, but at the same time when you view the direction the company was going in, I'm not sure whether Hart would have been better. As it was, neither meant that much in the long term of the Attitude Era.

 

[jericho3150]

Yeah, I'm sure they're big stars in Germany, Israel, South Africa, Hong Kong and the Phillipines! Sorry, Bret has been statistically proven to be a top draw overseas pal!

Statistically proven??? By who??? Id LOVE to see this "proof". Or maybe your proof comes from the Bret Hart Book...

And despite the "fact" that WWF had the "MOST POPULAR AND FAMOUS WRESTLER THIS EARTH HAS EVER SEEN" (sorry I could even keep a straight face typing that) they we're hemorrhaging money while he was on top. The first time WWF had gotten into the black was actually despite the dip in TV ratings was 1996..

Last I checked 'Taker & Sid were main eventing that show!

Nice excuse... Bret vs Austin was a big feud they had been working on since Bret came back to WWF. Although it didn't go on last it was probably the most anticipated match of the night and was WWF's most high profile feud at the time.. And your forgetting ..BRET WAS THE MOST FAMOUS OF ALL TIME!!! ON THE PLANET EARTH!! OK...ok so you didn't like that example because he didn't wrestle the last match on the card..but how about one the he did headline... Bret Hart (themostfamouspersonintheworld) VS Davey Boy Smith.. Headlining In Your House #5... THE SINGLE WORST DRAWING WWE PPV of ALL TIME!!!

Yup, that's what we call an "angle" in the wrestling biz! Maybe you heard of it??? Bret gets a pass because he never refused to put anyone over! There's no claims of it from other parties, like there is with Shawn. Bret did what he was asked! Other than Montreal, nobody has ever claimed Bret refusing to lose!

What WE call??? I must have missed your match on Raw the other day.

You seem to take rumors the same as facts.. The things we know to be 100% true is Bret refused to drop the belt to Shawn... and as far as Shawn goes the only person who knows if Shawn refused to job is Vince and he's gone on record and said for all the fighting Shawn did if Vince wanted him to do something in the end Shawn would do it.

 

[jericho3150]

I still say it was a conspiracy to this day, from Shawn and Vince to get Bret out. Basically Vince had to choose, he chose Shawn! So Bret felt unwanted, and useless! Do you blame him for wanting to leave??

Im glad that you admitted that you are one of those conspiracy theory people.. And like other conspiracy theories like 9/11 was an inside job or JFK or Area 51 you base your opinions off zero actual facts..

End of story?? What are you a WWE DVD?? Bret still wanted to see what was mapped out for him, there's nothing wrong with that!

Thats fine.. but don't sit there and preach about this undying loyalty Bret had to WWF.. HE left... Vince came up with the money and told Bret "I can afford to pay you after all" and it was Bret that changed that.

Hours left?? Umm, Vince knew the deadline, Bret never promised Vince anything! So don't give me this blindsided B.S! And in that very same conversation, Vince had mapped out what was left for Bret, and it didn't sound very good to Bret, and speaking as a fan, reading what Bret said in his book, Bret would've gotten lost in the shuffle pretty quick! I understand he was getting older, but I still think he had a lot to offer the business, for at least another 3 years.

Yes blindsided... Bret let Vince know about the WCW offer the day he signed with them... Vince thought for an entire week that Bret was staying with him.

And as far as what Vince laid out for him... Shawn basically has been playing the role Vince wanted Bret to play for the last 7 years.. Vince simply made it clear that Bret was not gonna be the top guy anymore. Had he simply excepted his new role Im sure he would have been great for another 3 years.. But instead he let his ego take over and went to WCW where he flopped..

Well, sorry but Ahmed was over like a mofo, I don't care how bad he was! He may have been a bad "worker", fine I'll agree to that...but the guy's popularity was soaring to major heights!

Ahmed Johnson was always a midlevel guy... he was slowly getting over but at no time was he "over like a mofo"

And I suppose you have a source saying that's not true???/QUOTE]

Lol.. the burden of proof isn't on me... You made a claim that you can't backup.

Reactionary...are you shtting me??? Shawn's repuation, stated, PUBLICLY, by NUMEROUS sources, that he was extremely difficult!! Shawn AGREED to let Bret take those shots, AGREED! And the shots were personal! If Bret wanted to take personal pot shots at Shawn, he would've called him a "Pill popping jackass". None of Bret's claims have been denied or rebuked by anyone! Yet Shawn's has!

I assure you Im not shtting you... Of course Shawn was very difficult... you know how we know this?? Everyone has said this..the lockeroom..Bret and even Shawn... But many people have also claimed Bret was sometimes a little difficult to work with and had a huge ego as well.. Bret's even come forward in recent years and said he was too reckless in the things that he was saying about Shawn and that he added a lot of fuel to the fire.

Shawns entire first run as champion Bret was trashing him in his column and in the dirtsheets.. claiming that he was trying to build heat. And Shawn had some very good questions... "Why is he trashing me and still trying to build this heat...and now I hear that he's negotiating a contract with WCW?" And at a time when the WWF was clearly in need of all the fans it could get what benifit could come from Bret making sure that in his absence all his fans didn't jump on the kliq bandwagon??? It simply doesn't make any sense. Shawn gets injured and Bret (along with others) is swirling rumors that he was faking an injury... That sounds more like a personal attack to me... unless Bret was of course spreading rumors that the character "Shawn Michaels" was faking an injury...

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Several things to say:

1. Bret Hart, only a midcarder? This is just plainly false. He was THE guy for a long time, and a top of the card guy for longer.

2. Bret didn't screw Bret. Vince screwed Bret. He may have felt he had to, blah blah blah, whatever, it was still Vince that screwed Bret.

3. As has been pointed out, Shawn had refused to job for Bret, and there were several other scenarios that they could have taken the title off Bret that didn't involve him jobbing to his most hated rival, a guy he had personal problems with, and who had refused to do the job for Bret. They could have had him forfeit the title (as Shawn had done on more than one occasion) or had him lose to virtually anyone else on the roster. Vince was either stupid, or he knew that he was forcing Bret's hand.

4. Shawn was undoubtedly the right choice for the direction Vince had decided he was going to go.

5. Bret made Austin (with Austin's help, obviously). From the time he refused to quit and passed out in a pool of his own blood, Austin was over to a Main Event level. The Vince feud enhanced Austin, but the match with Bret left Austin a made man.

6. Shawn was wrong to pull several of his stunts afterward, including lying like a bitch right to Bret's face, promising not to wear the title, bringing out the midget, etc.

7. If Vince wanted to Bret to jobs like that without questioning him, he shouldn't have given him creative control in his contract.

8. Shawn going to WCW wouldn't have made a difference, and if Bret had stayed in WWF, it wouldn't have made a difference. Both companies had their direction, and while both of them had fan bases and runs at the top, neither guy was over enough to carry a company on their own. They weren't Hogan, Austin, Rocky, etc. They enhanced the product, but they couldn't carry it. For example, HBK calls himself Mr. Wrestlemania, says he has stolen the show, etc. That statement is very telling, because he wouldn't have to steal the show if he already was the show. People don't buy PPV's to watch Shawn wrestle. Same for Bret. I mean, their diehard fans do, but the general public does not. People buy the PPV because Hulk Hogan is wrestling, or Steve Austin is wrestling, etc., and they happen to see that great HBK or Hitman match, and they say "wow, that was really entertaining."

 

[Slam Master]

I'm gonna quote an excerpt from Bret's book: This is from October 12th, before Bret was planning on leaving:

"I made a short speech to Shawn, knowing that it was official that we would face each other at Survivor Series, which was going to be in Montreal this time. Bret: I just want you to know that despite any differences we've had this year, I have no problem working with you. You can trust me in every way to be professional. What you need to know, Shawn, is that you're not in any danger". I added, "I also want you to know that I have no problem dropping the belt to you if that's what Vince wants." He glared back at me, " I appreciate that, but I want you to know that I'm not willing to do the same thing to you". And then he left.

Its really hard to believe that it went like that. Sure HBK was a prick, but I highly doubt with Bret saying he would lose to him in such a nice manner that Shawn would reply like such an asshole. He used to say in the back that he wouldn't do jobs as a joke to get back at the rumor spreaders and sheets, but if he was offered the belt I doubt he said those exact words. Bret later goes onto say that in a meeting with Vince 4 days later Vince told him he was putting the belt back on him, and he started crying, thanking Bret, and saying he always puts his foot in his mouth.

Bret's book has a lot of honesty and truth to it, but when it comes to PERSONAL legacy which is what he cared about most, I'm sure in spots it was sugar-coated just a bit. Shawn said he didn't want to lose to him after he found out he was leaving to WCW which was the week of Survivor Series, but when that took place in the locker room it was a week after Bad Blood 1997. Vince and Shawn said that HBK had no problem losing in Montreal since he was the heel, but when he found out Bret was going he thought it would be really stupid and bad for business to lose to the champ, and then have the champ go to the direct competition without losing.

 

[Slam Master]

I'm gonna quote an excerpt from Bret's book: This is from October 12th, before Bret was planning on leaving:

"I made a short speech to Shawn, knowing that it was official that we would face each other at Survivor Series, which was going to be in Montreal this time. Bret: I just want you to know that despite any differences we've had this year, I have no problem working with you. You can trust me in every way to be professional. What you need to know, Shawn, is that you're not in any danger". I added, "I also want you to know that I have no problem dropping the belt to you if that's what Vince wants." He glared back at me, " I appreciate that, but I want you to know that I'm not willing to do the same thing to you". And then he left.

Its really hard to believe that it went like that. Sure HBK was a prick, but I highly doubt with Bret saying he would lose to him in such a nice manner that Shawn would reply like such an asshole. He used to say in the back that he wouldn't do jobs as a joke to get back at the rumor spreaders and sheets, but if he was offered the belt I doubt he said those exact words. Bret later goes onto say that in a meeting with Vince 4 days later Vince told him he was putting the belt back on him, and he started crying, thanking Bret, and saying he always puts his foot in his mouth.

Bret's book has a lot of honesty and truth to it, but when it comes to PERSONAL legacy which is what he cared about most, I'm sure in spots it was sugar-coated just a bit. Shawn said he didn't want to lose to him after he found out he was leaving to WCW which was the week of Survivor Series, but when that took place in the locker room it was a week after Bad Blood 1997. Vince and Shawn said that HBK had no problem losing in Montreal since he was the heel, but when he found out Bret was going he thought it would be really stupid and bad for business to lose to the champ, and then have the champ go to the direct competition without losing.

I meant Bret was waiting to hear what Bischoff was going to offer at that point, but no one in the company knew Vince was trying to wedge him out. Then, a few days later in Long Island, NY Vince came up to him at an event telling him money wasn't the issue anymore and that he could pay Bret in full. After that, Bret said he'd most likely stay if money wasn't the issue but wanted to know what the plans were for his bookings. He had 3 losses planned at PPV main events all to Shawn, followed by a win on RAW for Bret's right to wrestle in the States. Of course, we all know how that decision went.

 

[SAVE_YOURSELVES_111]

Im glad that you admitted that you are one of those conspiracy theory people.. And like other conspiracy theories like 9/11 was an inside job or JFK or Area 51 you base your opinions off zero actual facts..

I'm just saying it's possible! And when I weight the actual FACTS, of the incidents of 1997 leading up to what happened. It would make a lot of sense. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying the screwjob was in full swing or anything like that.

I'm just saying, Vince may very well have been fed up with the heat between the two, felt one had to go, so he chose the 40 year old Bret, over the 32 year old Shawn, who was considered to be the best performer in the business.

I'm just gambling on possibilities here, so fucking sue me....

Thats fine.. but don't sit there and preach about this undying loyalty Bret had to WWF.. HE left... Vince came up with the money and told Bret "I can afford to pay you after all" and it was Bret that changed that.

Ok, if it was really ALL about the money, then Bret would've left when WCW offered him the SAME contract, over a YEAR ago! Bret mainly felt he was at a crossroads in his career in WWF, and was stuck in wrestling purgatory! THAT'S what prompted him to leave.

Yes blindsided... Bret let Vince know about the WCW offer the day he signed with them... Vince thought for an entire week that Bret was staying with him.

Bret never guaranteed him anything. When Vince approached him, in later October, telling him he could afford to pay him, Bret never promised him a thing, and Vince had already made the decision to take the belt of him anyway.

And as far as what Vince laid out for him... Shawn basically has been playing the role Vince wanted Bret to play for the last 7 years.. Vince simply made it clear that Bret was not gonna be the top guy anymore. Had he simply excepted his new role Im sure he would have been great for another 3 years.. But instead he let his ego take over and went to WCW where he flopped..

Oh here we go, this is rich! Bret could've been something in WCW, Bret had maybe three good moments in his entire tenure with the company. The feud with Flair, the metal under the jersey angle with Goldberg and the Owen tribute match. WCW fucked that up, pure and simple.

Ahmed Johnson was always a midlevel guy... he was slowly getting over but at no time was he "over like a mofo"

Yes he was, I dunno what matches you were watching. He was over from the moment he stepped in the company.

I assure you Im not shtting you... Of course Shawn was very difficult... you know how we know this?? Everyone has said this..the lockeroom..Bret and even Shawn... But many people have also claimed Bret was sometimes a little difficult to work with and had a huge ego as well.. Bret's even come forward in recent years and said he was too reckless in the things that he was saying about Shawn and that he added a lot of fuel to the fire.

And who are these many people that said Bret was difficult?? They only base his ego, on there one sided view of what happened in Montreal. I've heard many people say he was a detail freak, but never difficult.

Bret's book has a lot of honesty and truth to it, but when it comes to PERSONAL legacy which is what he cared about most, I'm sure in spots it was sugar-coated just a bit. Shawn said he didn't want to lose to him after he found out he was leaving to WCW which was the week of Survivor Series, but when that took place in the locker room it was a week after Bad Blood 1997. Vince and Shawn said that HBK had no problem losing in Montreal since he was the heel, but when he found out Bret was going he thought it would be really stupid and bad for business to lose to the champ, and then have the champ go to the direct competition without losing.

The incident where Shawn refused to lose to him initially took place in October, Bret didn't hand in his notice until Nov.1st.

 

[SAVE_YOURSELVES_111]

Yeah you kind of refuted your own argument there hon. You can't complain about Shawn not putting anyone over and then talk about Hart doing "What he asked" - it doesn't work like that. Both showed they could be unprofessional - if Hart was the bigger man his fans like to portray him as, wouldn't he have done the right thing by the business and dropped the belt to Shawn, regardless? As it is, both acted like immature babies when they didn't get their own way.

For Bret it was about respect! Fact is, initially he only refused to drop the belt in Montreal, and it was because about the complete and utter disrespect that your favourite wrestler showed him! Both on screen and backstage. Bret was initially slated to finish out all of November. Initially he refused to drop the belt to Shawn period, but thought about it for a while and said he'd do it, as long as it wasn't in Montreal, that way Bret still has credibility from a character standpoint, and Shawn will have the belt once he's gone.

But then it "leaked" out Bret was leaving. So of course, Vince creates the excuse he needs Bret OFF of TV after Survivor Series, thinking it would damage his company, having WCW sign there champion, when even by Survivor Series, it was common knowledge.

And IMO, Bret saw this as a ploy to get him to lose in Montreal, and damage him, so he refused. He wouldn't let them take away his self respect.

I've weighed the facts from both ends, at one point, I even doubted Bret, but now that I've weighed everything, I stil say he was right for what happened. And refused for fear of damage to his credibility, and not wanting to condone Shawn's disrespect.

 

[SAVE_YOURSELVES_111]

Now as for the whole main story from this thread, I don't think Vince should've dumped Shawn, because it would've been a completely and utterly rediculous move, to dump a guy who's in the prime of his career, and showed performance skills like no other before or since. While Shawn didn't last thanks to injury, even I can admit, he still played an important role, and was a major helper in the transition the company was under. He may not have been around to see the full swing happen, but at least he was a founding father of it.