The reason Shawn Michaels gets so much flack

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

Bret's ability to draw had nothing to do with why Vince wanted out of his contract. The WWF was about to go public and as part of that Vince wanted to clear the long term liabilities (accounting term, not liability as in sucks) off the books to raise the valuation of the company.

I have heard this and understand it. But what I don't get is why Vince couldn't approach Bret and work something out so instead of a 20 year contract he has it cut down to something more reasonable for Vince in his attempt to go public, while still satisfying Bret's needs?

 

[ShowStopper '97]

Make no mistake about it. If Bret was drawing on any level, there is no way in hell Vince McMahon orchestrates a deal to allow Bret to go to his competitor that was this close to putting him out of business. Vince was so confident about Bret not drawing anything in WCW, that he helped Bret go there. That has never been done in the history of the business.

 

[ShowStopper '97]

Also worth noting, that it wasn't until Bret's third reign as champion, that Nitro even existed. His first two reigns as WWF Champion WCW Monday Nitro did not even exist. Bret won his 3rd title at Survivor Series 1995 in November. Nitro had just started in September of 1995.

With Shawn, two months into his first reign as champion, Scott Hall and Kevin Nash had appeared on Nitro and started the nwo storyline. Shawn had the unfortunate fate of having his first (and all of his reigns) title run going up against the nwo, when it was fresh and brand new. Whoever was WWF Champion at that time period would have lost in the ratings, whether it was Shawn, Bret, or anyone else.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Hes not a phoney. Thats ridiculous you say this. He clearly turned his life around and attempts to be a good man. He said Bret should have dropped the belt.....and a lot of people think he should have. Im glad to hear you have lived such a perfect life that you can judge his christianity.



He also agrees with what Bret says about him and apologizes....again



Overrated in the 90s? 92-98 saw one of the best runs a wrestler has ever put together. HBK in 97 is untouchable, no body from any time frame was as good in the ring. Reclaim some of his name? If that means solidifying himself as the best ever, then I agree.



No hes just hated on by you because your a biased Bret fan. In the late 90s you were a Shawn guy or a Bret guy. Now most of those who are Shawn fans look at Bret objectivly and most of those who are Bret fans look at Shawn onjectivley.....you simply root for your guy and blindly hate everything about Shawn. Hell Shawn and Bret even put it behind them, themselves.

A few in the business have also said how they think Shawn is not as "reborn" as he claims... Sure he is loaded on it, but there is a famous Shane Helms shoot on youtube where he calls HBK out for some of his "hypocrisies".

I think it was Honky Tonk Man who (in a rare moment of clarity for him) said that religion is what wrestlers find when no one will talk or do business with them. In many cases it's true, and in Shawn's he was pretty well hated before he was baptised.

I don't know him, so I can't judge... but enough people who do seem to still hold him in low esteem as a man while recognising his talent, even with his "rebirth". In the 90's though, there is little doubt that he was not a nice person and I think that subliminally may have affected the fans during that face run... it was almost obvious he was a dick...

 

[ShowStopper '97]

Say what you want, but Shawn even back then had always admitted that he has faults. Which is something lots of wrestlers are incapable of doing. Shawn never claimed to be perfect, or a role model, or a "hero." He was human.

 

[HBKperfect23]

A few in the business have also said how they think Shawn is not as "reborn" as he claims... Sure he is loaded on it, but there is a famous Shane Helms shoot on youtube where he calls HBK out for some of his "hypocrisies".

Ask Shane Helms what he thinks of Shawn now. Despite trashing him at every oppurtunity given, when Shawn was asked by a fan to to give a prayer for Shanes kid he did so and asked others to do so as well. Not such a bad guy anymore, is he Shane?

I think it was Honky Tonk Man who (in a rare moment of clarity for him) said that religion is what wrestlers find when no one will talk or do business with them. In many cases it's true, and in Shawn's he was pretty well hated before he was baptised.

It was Cornette. He cant get over Shawn being a dick in 1996 when Cornette had the book. He probably hasnt seen Shawn since. Cornette is just bitter his guys couldnt get over.

I don't know him, so I can't judge... but enough people who do seem to still hold him in low esteem as a man while recognising his talent, even with his "rebirth". In the 90's though, there is little doubt that he was not a nice person and I think that subliminally may have affected the fans during that face run... it was almost obvious he was a dick...

What about all the people who like him? Him and Bret had become friends. Numerous wrestlers have went on record saying he came back a new man.

Make no mistake about it. If Bret was drawing on any level, there is no way in hell Vince McMahon orchestrates a deal to allow Bret to go to his competitor that was this close to putting him out of business. Vince was so confident about Bret not drawing anything in WCW, that he helped Bret go there. That has never been done in the history of the business.

To me this closes the argument of Shawn vs Bret in drawing power

 

[justtxyank]

WCW was not putting Vince out of business. That is a myth. Vince did not want Bret to go to WCW either, that is another myth. He was in a situation where he needed to clear money and that was the only way to do it.

 

[theHeadliner]

I still feel the orchestration of Bret's release by Vince was more about what Bret's role was going to be and Bret's feelings on the direction more than how much of a draw he was. In October of 1997 at Nassau Coliseum Vince told Bret money was not a problem anymore and that he could pay him in full, he offered him chances to stay. When Vince laid out his future creative plans Bret would be jobbing to Shawn and not being the champ, that's not the role Bret wanted to play so he chose to leave. Vince saw the edgy direction and had Shawn, DX, and Austin to fill those top spots. Bret getting paid that huge amount of money for not being the top guy would have been dumb for business. At that time Vince said he didn't want to let Bret go either way but knew he didn't want less money. If Bret was put in that top spot in the early Attitude right after he left I bet he would have drawn just as good or better than Shawn Michaels in that position.

 

[theHeadliner]

And like someone said, Vince was not going out of business and he wanted to go public, so clearing that huge contract was a must. If Bret was fine with taking less money even though Vince said he could pay him his full agreed upon salary in October of 1997, and accepted not being the number one guy a lot of the time, he could have stayed.

 

[ShowStopper '97]

That's fine, but Bret still was not drawing at all during this time period. It made it so Vince was not fearful at all at losing Bret to his competition. It was his idea, as he informed Bret he wanted out of that awful contract. Even if they weren't going out of business, they were close. Some employees weren't even getting paid.

 

[The Brain]

This thread was supposed to be about Shawn Michaels and has turned into another discussion about Bret Hart and The WWF's financial situation in 1997.