Should The Womens Championship Replace the Diva's?

[Tastycles]

Look at those who held the Women's Championship: Trish Stratus, Lita, Victoria, Mickie James, Michelle McCool, Molly Holly, The Fabulous Moolah, Ivory, Jazz, Beth Phoenix, Melina and many more.

Of those 11, 4 held the Diva's title too, along with Natalya, whom I think is a better wrestler than a lot of this list. Meanwhile you ignore luminaries like The Kat and Hervey Whippleman holding the Women's Title. Seriously, the Divas title has pretty much exclusively been held by the most over women in the company at a given time. The Women's Champion was Stephanie McMahon for 5 months.

I cannot believe the rose tinted spectacles being worn here. Women's wrestling was always shit, and it always will be shit. If anything, the level of thought and quality over the last few years is an improvement, because you don't have people having pillow fight matches every ten seconds.

 

[Captain Morgan Freeman]

Ive never been a big fan of womens wrestling but how is changing the title going to make any difference?
If you change it back to the womens title you're still going to have the same group of women competing for it like Kaitlyn and Alicia Fox.
When the main argument is look at who used to hold the title then the problem is with the division and not the title.

 

[thomasgj]

Victoria was an athlete before she signed with WWE, she won several fitness competitions so she transitioned over... Not to mention she spent 3 years training before she ever even stepped foot in the ring, and when she did she was already blowing away everyone on the roster.

I also like how you tell people not to even comment on a division that they "know nothing about" as if you're Fit fucking Finlay or Sara Del Ray and training these girls.

The fact of the matter is if the girls down in NXT were any better than the ones on the current roster they'd be debuting them instead of continuing to let them develop. Instead of telling people they're wrong and giving white bread answers, maybe you could start showing some facts to back your statements up. If you believe so strongly that the diva's division can be salvaged, show us... because a lot of the people that have been posting their opinions in this forum seem to know what they're talking about on plenty of different topics.

I already have in other posts talked about ways the divas could be used correctly, but it isn't like me posting it another time will make it happen.

Anyhow, I think it's safe to say that someone who claims that we need real wrestlers like Sunny, Sable, and The Kat knows nothing about the division. Like, I'm not saying I'm a know-it-all or some master expert - but, lets be honest, does the comment sound right to you? Just wondering how a woman who never wrestled a single match, one who never took bumps, and one who made a living of taking her clothes off in "matches" qualify as real wrestlers?

The reason the girls in NXT are kept there is because the E' doesn't know what to do with them... which is one of the reasons a developmental place exists.

I can sit here and come up with a million different scenarios on good storylines for them and logical booking, but at the end of the day, what is it other than a waste of breath? They need direction, and the people in charge of them should be the ones putting effort behind their booking and story progression as opposed to just barely half-assing everything.

 

[Jenna.]

I've been saying this for the longest. I hate everything about the diva's division. I hate the belt...everything. I'm watching Raw now and when they recapped the annoucement of Trish being inducted into the HOF and they showed her memorable moments, those pops she used to get were insane! I literally forgot what it was like to see the audience into a women's match. These divas today could NEVER. I literally sat there with a cheese smile on my face. Good times.

But at the end of the day changing the title won't do anything for the division. A complete overhaul needs to happen.

 

[BLeonard]

Changing the look of the belt, or the name of it will do absolutely nothing. Tying a belt to it's "lineage" to try and make it more credible is pretty silly as well... Nobody is screaming for WWE to change the Big Gold Belt (World Heavyweight Championship) yet that exact same belt (design) was once held by David Arquette.

The only thing that's going to improve the Divas (or Women's) Division is by getting them to work more and improve on their skills. I posted in the "Divas Division in 2013" thread with my opinions and one of the first things I suggested was scrapping Superstars and just making it an all-divas show. It'd be on WWE.com, so there's no worry of ratings or anything and it would basically force the women to work every week, as they would obviously need content to fill the show. Working 10 minute matches at house shows would probably be a nice start as well.

Another thing to keep in mind is that part of the reason that the division is in the state it's in is simply because they don't want someone like Natalya putting on a good match, with the men following up with a lackluster performance. Look at RAW tonight... Punk vs Jericho was the final match. After the great 15-20 minute match they had, how silly would it have been to have John Cena wrestle afterward? It very likely would have made Cena look bad in comparison. Now, imaging if something similar happens in a Divas match in the middle of the show... WWE certainly doesn't want fans after the show saying "Damn, Natalya is a better wrestler than John Cena is." By giving the divas 2-3 minutes every few shows and clusterbombs like the Vegas lumberjill thing, there's little to no risk of the women looking better than the men, especially the ones that sell T-Shirts and merchandise.

But, again, simply scrapping the Divas belt and bringing the Women's belt back won't do a thing to improve the division. The belt itself (and all belts really) is nothing more than a prop... It's up to the booking and ability of the workers that carry and compete for that belt to give it legitamacy, not the other way around.

-Bill

 

[One to Remember]

I am going to address the main issues, the roster, belt design, and lineage..

The key to helping the division is to get actual athletes and give them the same liberties and respect that TNA affords to its Knockouts. They need to be givin longer storylines, they at times need to be piggy backed to other storylines with male wrestlers, and if each group or clique has a woman in it let them carry the torch at times. Let AJ try to compete for the Divas' Title the same way Big E and Dolph might get tag gold while Dolph is also trying to get the big one. Same dynamic should had played out with the Hart Foundation with them rooting for Natalya to when so everyone wore gold.

The belt design is too "Power Puff Girls" and makes them kinda seem juvenile as well as ditzy and cliche. The WWF Women's title looked raggity and unimaginative. It looked so backyard wrestling.

A belt that looks like this would be worth fighting for and gives off a vision of prestige anyway. It looks more serious and you expect to see someone give it their all with belt aesthetics like that. That was the WWF Women's title circa 1985. Its like when WCW had that Hardcore title made out of tin cans and beer bottles and a colander made to resemble the stanley cup..

It is ridiculous to introduce a new belt out of thin air when you have another title serving the same specific wrestlers going back three decades atleast to the WWF's formative years.. When looking at title reign high lights you really can't make allusions to Moolah or Trish or Chyna because the Divas' title was not apart of their eras or the Diva concept itself. It doesnt make sense to have a Divas' division on one hand then be in the middle of the PG era on the other. If the kids are legitimately watching WWE just to see athletes engage in comic book type dynamics it would had made more sense to have had the Divas' title in the Attitude Era and the Women's title in today's era right? It went from a group of female wrestlers comprised of a minority that could play the role of diva, to a group of Divas comprised of a minority that could play the role of female wrestler.

P.S.

What's the difference? Do you think anyone will suddenly take the title more seriously by changing one word? As far as I'm concerned the Diva's championship is the same one that Trish Stratus held. Take a look at the tag team championship. Technically the titles held by Team Hell No are not the same titles won by The British Bulldogs, Hart Foundation, Demoltion, etc. Is anyone even aware of that? I don't know why we wouldn't trace each of those championship's history back to the titles that were held years ago. There's really no difference.

They are two different titles, thats like saying the WCW and NWA titles were the same from 1991-3 because they both represented World titles in/for that company.. Those tag team belts are the same.. Maybe your confusing those with the WWWF U.S. Tag team titles held by the likes of Killer Kowalski and Gorilla Monsoon who arent in the WWF tag tam title lineage? The Divas title isnt the women's title like the WWWF U.S.A. Heavyweight title isnt related to the WWE U.S. title..

 

[The Brain]

They are two different titles, thats like saying the WCW and NWA titles were the same from 1991-3 because they both represented World titles in/for that company.. Those tag team belts are the same.. Maybe your confusing those with the WWWF U.S. Tag team titles held by the likes of Killer Kowalski and Gorilla Monsoon who arent in the WWF tag tam title lineage? The Divas title isnt the women's title like the WWWF U.S.A. Heavyweight title isnt related to the WWE U.S. title..

Your post proves my point. I am not referring to the WWWF U.S. Tag titles. The titles that Daniel Bryan and Kane hold right now technically only go back to 2002. Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit were the first champions. They are not the same titles held by The British Bulldogs, Hart Foundation, Demolition, etc. Would bringing back the other tag titles add value to the championship? Of course not because most people don't know the difference, including you. Same thing with the Women's/Diva's title.

 

[CubsFanFrank]

Can they just eliminate the womens division al together? If they want to expand and create a new G.L.O.W.(for the few people who may remember that) then more power to them. Otherwise, use the "Divas" as valets and managers and such. The matches are brutal. The only purpose they serve is eye candy and the same occasionally entertaining adolescent style commentary Jerry Lawler has been using during women's matches since 1997.

 

[OmegaWWE]

Changing the name of the Divas Championship, or even bringing back the WWE Women's Championship to replace it, would not make a difference. They have made references to former WWE Women's Champions as Divas Champions, despite never having held the title.

For example...
Trish Stratus (retired in 2006, long before the Divas Championship was even thought of) was called "a former seven-time Divas Champion," but never once held the title.

Layla was called a two-time Divas Champion, despite only having won the Divas Championship for the first time last year at Extreme Rules. Her first reign as "Co-Divas Champion" was not recognized by WWE as official, and prior to that, she was the Final WWE Women's Champion.

Gail Kim was referred to once as a two-time Divas Champion, despite the fact that she was only a former WWE Women's Champion.

Melina was referred to interchangeably as a five-time WWE Women's Champion and as a five-time Divas Champion. She, in fact, held the Women's Championship three times, and the Divas Championship twice.

Mickie James was also referred to interchangeably as a six-time Divas Champion and a six-time WWE Women's Champion. Mickie is a former five-time WWE Women's Champion, and held the Divas Championship once.

Those are just a few examples. With all that said, though, one could make the argument that WWE cared more about the WWE Women's Championship than they do the Divas Championship, simply by the fact that they always, or almost always, introduced the title as the "WWE Women's Championship," versus the "Divas Championship." But, that's a stretch, and it would be really grasping at straws.

So, no. It doesn't matter if the WWE Women's Championship returns or if the Divas Championship stays.

 

[OmegaWWE]

All I'll say is, it is the World WRESTLING Entertainment. If there is no place for women's wrestling on this program, then they've failed as a wrestling company. Maybe having a couple of blondes with their tits out make more money, but Vince isn't Hugh Hefner, so let us see actual WRESTLING.

I've agreed with just about everything you've said so far, but I do have to correct you on this one.

The company is WWE, not World Wrestling Entertainment. Yes, that's what the initials stood for, however, now, that's just an orphan initialism. WWE does business as, well, WWE. They're no longer in the wrestling business... They're Sports-Entertainment. WWE doesn't hire wrestlers, they hire entertainers.

It's as simple as that.

 

[One to Remember]

Your post proves my point. I am not referring to the WWWF U.S. Tag titles. The titles that Daniel Bryan and Kane hold right now technically only go back to 2002. Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit were the first champions. They are not the same titles held by The British Bulldogs, Hart Foundation, Demolition, etc. Would bringing back the other tag titles add value to the championship? Of course not because most people don't know the difference, including you. Same thing with the Women's/Diva's title.

There is no difference, the wwe tag team titles were created for SD in 2002 so that that show would have a tag division. RAW kept the World tag title so theyd have a legitimate championship not technically created out of thin air like the WHC.. When you got the WWE Unified Tag Team titles it featured the main lineage that had the Hart Foundation, Steiners, Edge and Christian, LOD and etc.

So, no. It doesn't matter if the WWE Women's Championship returns or if the Divas Championship stays.

But are you seeing this on WWE's official lineages on their sites or just going off of what announcers say? If you go to a DIVA's profile it will have both titles divided in her history like it divides WHC and WWE titles in Edge's profile, etc..

 

[Bernkastel]

I already have in other posts talked about ways the divas could be used correctly, but it isn't like me posting it another time will make it happen.

Anyhow, I think it's safe to say that someone who claims that we need real wrestlers like Sunny, Sable, and The Kat knows nothing about the division. Like, I'm not saying I'm a know-it-all or some master expert - but, lets be honest, does the comment sound right to you? Just wondering how a woman who never wrestled a single match, one who never took bumps, and one who made a living of taking her clothes off in "matches" qualify as real wrestlers?

The reason the girls in NXT are kept there is because the E' doesn't know what to do with them... which is one of the reasons a developmental place exists.

I can sit here and come up with a million different scenarios on good storylines for them and logical booking, but at the end of the day, what is it other than a waste of breath? They need direction, and the people in charge of them should be the ones putting effort behind their booking and story progression as opposed to just barely half-assing everything.

A good wrestler is one that draws money. The women's division has never been a big draw outside of a few performers that transcended it. Luckily, or unluckily depending on who you asked, the pudding and lingerie matches never drew as much as stand alone performers like Trish, Lita, or Sable.

Those were the "real wrestlers," performers that the division has always needed but could never find... at least not to that caliber. The closest they came were Mickie James and Candice Michelle - Kharma also would have been huge if the unfortunate circumstances surrounding her hadn't of happened.

That being said, the WWE has a huge potential story line for the division in AJ vs Kaitlyn just waiting to happen - although allot of that is riding on whether or not Ziggler can draw heat as a world champion first.

As for the question should the Diva's champion replace the Women's champion? Honestly I don't see why not. The Women's championship represented a different time and era. Not necessarily an era that was better or worse - as the division saw plenty of up and downs between Moolah and Trish - but one that resonated with older fans. WWE should be looking forward, not backwards.

 

[The Brain]

There is no difference, the wwe tag team titles were created for SD in 2002 so that that show would have a tag division. RAW kept the World tag title so theyd have a legitimate championship not technically created out of thin air like the WHC.. When you got the WWE Unified Tag Team titles it featured the main lineage that had the Hart Foundation, Steiners, Edge and Christian, LOD and etc.

But are you seeing this on WWE's official lineages on their sites or just going off of what announcers say? If you go to a DIVA's profile it will have both titles divided in her history like it divides WHC and WWE titles in Edge's profile, etc..

Take a look for yourself.

http://www.wwe.com/classics/titlehistory/wwetag

The current tag team titles trace back to 2002. As fans we just ignore that because it makes us feel better to think they have a longer history. Since you ignore the lineage tag titles why not just ignore it for the Diva's title too?

I consider the titles held by Kane and Bryan to be the same titles held by Ax and Smash. WWE does not. I consider the title that Kaitlyn holds to be the same title that Trish Stratus held. WWE does not. Really though, what's the difference?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Whether it's the WWE Women's Championship or WWE Divas Championship, either title is equally worthless at this point in time. Generally speaking, the Diva Division as a whole hasn't been relevant in WWE for years, so reinstating the Women's Championship would mean nothing.

Women's wrestling doesn't draw. It never has and it probably never will. Vince knows this. Vince knew this well before he took over the company from his father because women's wrestling never drew in any territory during his father's time. As a result, the Divas are primarily used as filler. Filler that looks appealing in skin tight and/or skimpy outfits, but filler nonetheless. The primary draw in women's wrestling in both WWE and TNA is good old fashioned sex appeal. That's not to say that there haven't been or currently aren't women in either company who aren't good pro wrestlers but they're not big money makers.

I'd personally like to see the Divas generally brought up to a level comparable to the Knockout Division. The KO Division isn't great and really hasn't been in years, but at least the Knockouts aren't used as nearly 100% meaningless filler as the Divas are. The only way that I see that possibly changing is when Triple H takes over once Vince steps down. I'm not saying that it will, just that it has a much better chance of happening under Triple H than Vince.

So until or unless the Divas become more than what they are as a whole, there's no need to do anything different in regards to the championship. There's no need to retire one and reinstate the other, nor is there any need to create a completely new championship or to redesign the existing one.

 

[One to Remember]

Take a look for yourself.

http://www.wwe.com/classics/titlehistory/wwetag

The current tag team titles trace back to 2002. As fans we just ignore that because it makes us feel better to think they have a longer history. Since you ignore the lineage tag titles why not just ignore it for the Diva's title too?

I consider the titles held by Kane and Bryan to be the same titles held by Ax and Smash. WWE does not. I consider the title that Kaitlyn holds to be the same title that Trish Stratus held. WWE does not. Really though, what's the difference?

Yeah, the WWE Tag team title was created in 2002 and the name was an attempt to compensate for ir being created out of thin air, however when both titles were fused to form the Unified Tag Team Titles the World tag team titles lineage takes precedence.. Apparently though we may have misinterpreted the unification..

As the Unified WWE Tag Team Champions of the world, the champions could appear on and defend the titles on any WWE brand.[3] On August 16, 2010, the World Tag Team Championship was decommissioned in favor of continuing the lineage of the WWE Tag Team Championship following the presentation of new championship belts to then-champions David Hart Smith and Tyson Kidd of The Hart Dynasty.[4]

Okay so WWF Tag team champions, WWWF Tag team champions, and World tag team champions are all in a single group that stretched from June 3, 1971 'til Aug 16, 2010..

Kane or Edge would exclusively be referred to as former World tag team champions in addition to WWE Tag team champions.. If a reference was made to Rocky Johnson or Luke Graham the announcers would call them former World tag team champions and thats why you are wrong because WWE is not currently conflating the two terms.

Whether it's the WWE Women's Championship or WWE Divas Championship, either title is equally worthless at this point in time. Generally speaking, the Diva Division as a whole hasn't been relevant in WWE for years, so reinstating the Women's Championship would mean nothing.

Women's wrestling doesn't draw. It never has and it probably never will. Vince knows this. Vince knew this well before he took over the company from his father because women's wrestling never drew in any territory during his father's time.

Lots of things didnt draw in his father's time, you think the Rock would? or Cena? If women had n relevance how do you explain the Rock n Wrestling connection with Cindi Lauper running laps with Rockin' Robin..? Those are prominent moments. Medusa throwing down the WWF Women's title on Nitro was a huge moment in the Monday Night Wars.. If WWE treats its women like Knockouts then you can have Natalya, Tamina, Kaitlin, or AJ in places of prominence with their storylines intertwined with the groups they are already in.. Its Vince's and WWE's fault that they chose to focus on bimbos who bounce a lot.. The Beautiful People, Khan, Tara, all got my attention because their matches were serious. The same athleticism they showed in TNA had the same appeal to the same grup that viewed Smackdown the most in the early brand years because of the emphasis on old school rasslin' and athletics.. The looks of the Divas can help, if they arent hot it wont hurt..

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Lots of things didnt draw in his father's time, you think the Rock would? or Cena?

Given their athletic ability, look and charisma, absolutely. Cena & Rock have those things in spades, far more so than major stars in the company at the time like Bruno Sammartino or Pedro Morales.

If women had n relevance how do you explain the Rock n Wrestling connection with Cindi Lauper running laps with Rockin' Robin..?

You just named the one reason why. Cindi Lauper wasn't a wrestler, yet she was the biggest selling female recording artist in the world at the time. Also, the Rock n Wrestling Connection. They could have taken any other young woman in wrestling, brought her in and paired her with Cindi Lauper and it would have gotten over. Why? Because Cindi Lauper was a mega star at the time, one that was hugely popular and one that drew. It was also a novelty when you consider how exceptionally rare it was to have someone involved in pro wrestling that was such a mainstream star. Lauper is what drew, not Wendi Richter.

 

[The Brain]

Okay so WWF Tag team champions, WWWF Tag team champions, and World tag team champions are all in a single group that stretched from June 3, 1971 'til Aug 16, 2010..

Kane or Edge would exclusively be referred to as former World tag team champions in addition to WWE Tag team champions.. If a reference was made to Rocky Johnson or Luke Graham the announcers would call them former World tag team champions and thats why you are wrong because WWE is not currently conflating the two terms.

How could you possibly say I’m wrong? I gave you definitive proof that the current tag team champions are not holding the same titles that trace back to the legendary teams of the past. Seeing as you didn’t realize that I proved that simply changing the name of a title will not make a difference. Do you really think if Vikki or Vince came out on Raw and said the Diva’s championship will now be called the Women’s championship and gave Kaitlyn the old Women’s belt there would suddenly be a spike in interest and quality in women’s wrestling? Does the belt have magical powers? Women’s wrestling was just better between 2001-2006 regardless of what they called the title.

 

[#1SamoaJoe]

Just get rid of it. Unless their going to give it some actual talent. WWE has replaced actual quality divas (Mickie James, Beth Phoenix, Eve) with talentless in ring divas (outside of Tamina). Make it relevant or remove it outright.

 

[thomasgj]

Just get rid of it. Unless their going to give it some actual talent. WWE has replaced actual quality divas (Mickie James, Beth Phoenix, Eve) with talentless in ring divas (outside of Tamina). Make it relevant or remove it outright.

Tamina is alright, but do you honestly think she's better than Natalya or Naomi, or AJ, Layla, or Alicia for that matter? Or are you just speaking out of your ass like the majority of the people here do regarding the divas?