So, I guess the f'n Frankensteiner doesn't count as a high flying move if you're Scott Steiner? Shawn Michaels was wrestling longer than Steiner and he wasn't pulling any of those moves at that stage of his career if ever. To my recollection, Shawn's high flying move set consists of a flying elbow that he couldn't even use until Randy Savage left the company. Even then, Randy Savage was better at it. Can you honestly say that there's been a heavyweight that was better at doing the frankensteiner than young Scotty Steiner? Hell, Brock Lesnar's shooting star press is more high risk/exciting than that flying elbow drop from Michaels. Shawn Michaels' ground game from what I remember consisted of reverse chin locks and headlocks with one figure four I saw him use on the British Bulldog. Did he ever do more than that?
What was his technical game made of? That awkward suplex he used to use as a finish in the early 90s? Seriously, I haven't seen it (maybe he did something w/Jericho as I never saw their matches).
First of all, high-flying moves are not based off who is doing them. If a hurricanrana isn't a high-flying move for Rey Mysterio, than it's not a high-flying move for Scott Steiner... but I'll still give you the point, seeing as I used the monkey flip and dropkick as examples in my first post. So yes, Scott Steiner used one or two "high-flying" moves throughout his career, but his arsenal consisted of 99% suplexes and slams. Also, you do get, the reason Shawn wasn't doing all those variations of suplexes is because it wasn't his wrestling style, right? Just like Scott Steiner isn't going to do a moonsault, Michaels isn't going to do a pump-handle slam and just because Steiner can hit 50 different suplexes, doesn't make him better in the ring than Shawn Michaels... it makes him a better technician.
As for high-flying; I've seen Shawn pull off moonsaults, splashes off ladders, elbow drops, used to regularly use the flying cross-body, slingshot cross-body, double axe-handle etc.
Ground game has consisted of inverted figure four, cross-armbreaker, cross-face, and has used the Ankle Lock and Sharpshooter a few times throughout his career.
Technically his arsenal included the Teardrop suplex, belly to back suplex, snap suplex, superplex... should I go on? Have you watched Shawn Michaels post-1998?
No one was arguing Steiner as greatest of all time, I was arguing that he was better in the ring, and I stand by that. 10 suplexes when your gimmick is the master of the suplex and all of them are shit no one in the states uses, sounds pretty awesome to me. Tiger suplex, german suplex, t-bone suplex, butterfly suplex, yeah this guy obviously can't work. Let's remember this was the early to mid 90s. It's not like guys were doing this shit every night in the U.S. Hell, I don't think anyone has done a butterfly suplex at the national level since! Admittedly all of Steiner's classic matches were in tags, but to be honest I haven't seen much of his young singles matches so I may have missed any classic NWA/WCW matches.
At the same time, what classic matches does Shawn Michaels have under his belt before his initial "retirement." I don't really count much of his post retirement run as he pretty much oversold everything and took his time. He and Scott Hall have a similar selling style that looks too cartoony. There's a clip in Wrestling w/Shadows where he's in a hold and screaming "OOOh, GOD NOOOO!" Really?! WTF?!
You can't just say "I don't count his post retirement run" and all of the sudden it's fact. If you're going to make the claim that Shawn isn't the GOAT, than you HAVE to take his post-retirement career into account.
Anyway, ever heard of a guy named Taz? Because he was labelled the "Human Suplex Machine" and was using the same types of moves as Scott Steiner at the time, and I've never heard somebody make the claim that Taz was better than Shawn Michaels... I never said that Steiner couldn't work... did you miss the part where I called him one of the best ring workers ever? I just said, that his singles matches were mostly pretty boring, and all those fancy moves never helped Steiner wrestle a 5 star match. He was a great technician and one of the most crisp wrestler in a ring, but he sucked at telling a story.
As for Shawn Michaels classics? There's Taker-Michaels in HIAC, Shawn-Jannetty for the IC title, Shawn-Hall Ladder match at Mania, and that's just pre-1998. If we're counting the second half of Shawn's career, you can include: Shawn-Jericho Mania 19, Shawn-HHH SS 2002, Shawn-Taker Mania 25 and 26, Shawn-Benoit-HHH Mania 20, Shawn-Cena ina one hour match on Raw... and there's more.
Athleticism? There were others (like Steiner, Brock, Angle) that were better. Fan reaction? Didn't Shawn get booed during his initial run as a babyface? I know I booed his ass and so did the crowd when he "lost his smile." Pure ability to do what? Work slowly, oversell and not lose? Seriously dude, are you for real? Are you telling me that Shawn Michaels was better than Lou Thesz, Mitsuharu Misawa, Tiger Mask, Ricky Steamboat, and Kurt Angle (just to name a few) at ring performance? SERIOUSLY?
Buddy, do you get what I'm saying. Sure there were others that were better in most categories, but Shawn is one of the only guys to be great in EVERY category... that's what makes him the GOAT in a lot of people's eyes. Uh, I don't know what you were watching but Shawn was only booed by a select few of the older males in the audience, everybody else loved him. When he cut his "lost my smile" promo, people were bawling in the crowd. As for pure ability, I've already explained myself. He had the ability to do anything he wanted in the ring, once he put his mind to it. Had he been 50 pounds larger, an entire arsenal of power moves could have been added into his repertoire.
Yes dude, that is what I'm telling you.
So am I supposed to have WWF gate receipts? Yeah, let me pull those out of my back pocket. The best proof I have of this is that WWF was losing in the ratings throughout Shawn's run in 1996. They even papered 20,000 in San Antonio at Royal Rumble '97 something that both Bret Hart & Jim Cornette have said on separate occasions. Cornette had the journal where he kept records of this stuff. Considering that he has a decent collection of facts in his books, I'll take his word for it until proven otherwise. Admittedly 40,000 out of 60,000 is a damn good draw, but when this is your hometown and they have to paper the numbers, I have to wonder. I imagine that Shawn couldn't nearly do good outside of San Antonio. It's not like Davey Boy couldn't sell out Wembley. Not to mention Hogan sold out damn near everywhere he went as a babyface & heel with or without the WWF behind him. If Shawn could draw, why the hell was Raw held in such small venues during his title run? Nitro was being held in arenas across the country.
Shawn's run in 1996? Woah, if I remember correctly, Bret Hart was the "face" of the company at this time, and had been for a number of years. In the 6 months between SS 97 and Mania 14, with Shawn as the clear number one, WWE began to make headway on WCW. Stone Cold picked up the slack after Shawn left, but it was Michaels that began to turn the tide. As for the Rumble in San Antonio, I've never heard that story so I can't really comment.
If someone names Shawn Michaels on their list of 5 favorite matches, I would advise that person to expand their viewing outside of the WWF. While it is a subjective thing, I can't imagine that many NWA/WCW fans would rate Shawn Michaels so highly. How can anyone rate him so high with all of the stuff from Japan & Mexico?
Wow are you kidding me? I watch NJPW, AAA, Lucha Underground, you name it... and I have yet to see anybody match Shawn in the ring, or yet to see a match come close to Taker-Shawn at Mania 25. I really think you're just biased because you don't like Shawn and love Bret.
Dude, I've been watching wrestling since the Can-Am connection so don't act like I'm a new guy that hasn't been around the block. Your statement did nothing to prove against my point that the guy didn't put people over. I saw him put over Cena clean. I saw that he kicked out of a finish to put the Undertaker over after both of them were way past their prime. I saw that he jobbed to Hogan after making a mockery of the business and Hogan. I saw him come back and win the world title in 2002 when they had Kurt Angle in the company. WTF?! I've seen the guy job when he was way past his prime and it no longer hurt his legacy. If he would have put somebody over that wasn't in the kliq in his prime, then I would rate him higher.
So you're just going to demonize the man because of the mistakes he made 20 years ago. Yes, he was a dick. Yes, he tried to bury people. Yes, he made life hell just to anger his co-workers, but GUESS WHAT, he had a 10 year career after that where he put over the likes of Jericho, Cena, Orton, Benoit, Edge, etc etc etc. again, get over it. I wouldn't treat you like a new guy if you could actually support your argument. It sounds like your spouting off random facts that came from the internet.
Again, my point isn't that Shawn Michaels isn't good. I'm asking why he is considered to be the GOAT. I'm sorry, but he just doesn't even come close in that department at all. He doesn't lead in any category and the one category that isn't subjective, which is drawing money, he is definitely not even close. So again, tell me what makes him the so-called GOAT?
I've already told you, and so have many others but you refuse to listen. Shawn was great at every single aspect of pro-wrestling, whether you want to accept that or not.
