This is a second round matchup in the Montreal Subregion. The ring and arena are universal throughout the first round and the organization is not a factor. There is a 20 minute time limit. Vote using any criteria you like. Most votes in the poll at the end of the time period wins. In the case of a tie we will go off of the number of written votes. In the case of a second tie, both are eliminated. Assume one week has passed since the first match.
Kurt Angle takes this match and it's really not even a close one. Both men are well known and skilled mat technicians, but Angle completely outshines Bockwinkel here. Angle won the Olympic gold medal back in '96 in men's freestyle so that in and of itself is more than enough to show who's better on the mat.
Overall, Angle is much more athletically sound than Bockwinkel ever was. Angle is stronger, faster, tougher, more agile and, when he has to be, can add a few unpredictable factors into his offense. Even if you were to take Kurt Angle now and put him up against Bockwinkel at the height of Bockwinkel's career, Angle would still dominate him. Bockwinkel didn't really become a singles star until he was well into his 40s.
Angle wins this match and I think he'd do it rather easily.
Tough match up. For Bockwinkel that is. I love me some Bock, but no way he goes over Angle ehre. Angle did everything better then Bock, and had a more potent offensive arsenal. Bock would sell his ass off for Kurt, though. Vote Angle.
Is this even something we have to argue about? it's quite obvious Kurt Angle is gonna win this one, and he's gonna win it quite easily, Kurt Angle, by far one of the greatest technical wrestlers of all time, one of the greatest all around wrestlers of all time also, and me being a Shawn Michaels fan, I can say this is probably the only guy I could truly accept going over Shawn Michaels in this tournament that isn't named Stone Cold Steve Austin.
While Nick has accomplished stuff certainly, it's nothing compared to the resume of Kurt Angle, 13 times world champion (if you count amateur background) his Wikipedia accomplishment page is absolutely huge.
Kurt Angle has beaten them all, as they came along, made about each and every one he faced (more than once) tap out at some point, and he has put on arguably some of the greatest matches WWE history might ever be able to feature on a WWE top 25 Greatest matchs of all time DVD.
Kurt Angle wins this one, and it's not even close.
I voted Bockwinkel here. Not sure how to defend it yet though. Is to support Coco a reason? I suppose there are a few criticisms you can make of Angle. Firstly, he's not even in a proper wrestling company at the moment. Would you vote for a President that belonged to some crazy anarchist party? Of course not, unless you're xfear. Also, I'm sure you can call Angle overrated. Always a good strategy when you need a way to slam a popular and successful wrestler. Angle may have had a bunch of good matches, but I'm sure more than a few of them have been given more credit than they're worth (Undertaker). Is that a reason to vote against him? Perhaps, same with his penis head.
Onto Bockwinkel, he was the unmodern day Chris Jericho. I know that everyone on here loves Jericho nowadays, it's more or less the law. Well Bockwinkel talked like Jericho did before there were message boards to talk about how awesome Bockwinkel's talking was. Vote Bock, he'll rock your cock.
Both of these men are technical wrestlers and are good at what they do. Unfortunately for Nick, the skills that Angle possesses in this field will be too much to handle. Sure, he knows quite the counters but considering the times that these two fought and the moves Kurt could pull off, Nick wouldn't be able to comprehend what's happening for some of them and won't know a counter move until Kurt pulls the move off again. Being an Olympic Gold medalist, I don't think he's that stupid to allow some like Nick to capitilise on that.
Dr. Steven Kurtesy... I mean Kurt Angle to win here.
Nick Bockwinkel was known as a wrestler who managed to find ways to win matches, even if he was beaten the entire match. Angle's no ordinary wrestler. Angle is a machine and with someone like Bockwinkel, Angle would have a field day with Bockwinkel, a man who's known as a finesse wrestler who used his smarts to win over his opponents.
Angle's also smart. SO that's out the window. It's Angle in a rather convincing win here.
Angle wins this matchup bock was good but no kurt angle. bockwinkels intelligence is thrown out of the window against andgle because angles moveset is large enough to not use the same move twice in a match an angle slam ends this one
To the best of my knowledge, Bockwinkel never failed to win an Olympic Gold Medal. And he certainly didn't fail to win an Olympic Gold Medal against Kurt Angle in 1996.
Kurt Angle doesn't lose to athletes who are worse than he is? Really? Is that how you explain him being a supporting character for most of his time in the best wrestling company on Earth?
If by that you mean to say he's the guy who gets praised as a technical wrestler while giving us spot fests that would make Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn blush, I agree.
Stuff? Try four time World Champion in an era where belts actually meant something. Fuck.
This is the only time you mention Bockwinkel in your post. You then go on to cite Kurt Angle's Wikipedia page. Clearly you're researching the wrong guy has you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
it's nothing compared to the resume of Kurt Angle, 13 times world champion (if you count amateur background) his Wikipedia accomplishment page is absolutely huge.
If this mind numbing dribble swayed ANYONE to vote for Angle, I have some highly unkind words for you that would probably be taboo by Bar Room standards.
Onto Bockwinkel, he was the unmodern day Chris Jericho. I know that everyone on here loves Jericho nowadays, it's more or less the law. Well Bockwinkel talked like Jericho did before there were message boards to talk about how awesome Bockwinkel's talking was. Vote Bock, he'll rock your cock.
Both of these men are technical wrestlers and are good at what they do. Unfortunately for Nick, the skills that Angle possesses in this field will be too much to handle. Sure, he knows quite the counters but considering the times that these two fought and the moves Kurt could pull off, Nick wouldn't be able to comprehend what's happening for some of them and won't know a counter move until Kurt pulls the move off again.
Nick Bockwinkel was known as a wrestler who managed to find ways to win matches, even if he was beaten the entire match. Angle's no ordinary wrestler. Angle is a machine and with someone like Bockwinkel, Angle would have a field day with Bockwinkel, a man who's known as a finesse wrestler who used his smarts to win over his opponents.
Angle's also smart. SO that's out the window. It's Angle in a rather convincing win here.
Isn't it a rule that Angle can't finish a match without using both of his signature moves at least four times? Couple that with the rolling German suplexes and you have another crap argument in the books for Angle.
Boom. Roasted.
The poor arguments for Angle alone are enough to justify voting against him.
Yeah, I'm voting for the Bockster. For three reasons.
1) His name is just as versatile as "Shocky" for coming up with awesome nicknames. Shockenstein and Bockenstein being just one out of a plethora of choices.
2) I've never thought Angle deserved the massive circle jerk he gets. He was good, maybe even great. But come on. You'd think he was HBK for all of the offers of anal sex he gets on these forums.
3) Because the Bocker rhymes with the Shocker. Which is both a hilarious sexual move one can perform with only three fingers, and a nickname that should be applied to the former Admin as often as humanly possible.
Bockwinkel was awesome, and his name reminds me of Rocky and Bullwinkel. A vote for Bockwinkel is a vote for Jason Alexander once you apply the 6 Degrees of Separation.
If by that you mean to say he's the guy who gets praised as a technical wrestler while giving us spot fests that would make Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn blush, I agree.
Sure Kurt Angle is able to make some spot fests but why in the world would someone be so stupid to say Kurt Angle isn't one of the greatest technical wrestlers of this generation, or all time for that sake?
I mean, do I really have to show you the match between him and Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania? do I really? Sure Kurt Angle is able to provide spot fests, but he's also able to provide wrestling matches on a level that very few guys can compete with.
And yes I know Nick is praised for being one of the more technical guys also, which is certainly gonna give him an upper hand at a certain point in this match, but he'd still have a tough time competing against Kurt Angle
. Angle is a machine and with someone like Bockwinkel, Angle would have a field day with Bockwinkel, a man who's known as a finesse wrestler who used his smarts to win over his opponents.
Angle's also smart. SO that's out the window. It's Angle in a rather convincing win here.
Look Coco, even our old-school wrestling mod voted for Kurt Angle, you'd expect him to be knowledged about Nick Bockwinkel as well wouldn't you? he said it himself "Angle is a machine"
And please don't come give me the whole "yeah, using others argument to sway your votes" BS cause I'm not the only one doing that, using others arguments to sway your own votes is in my eyes a great way to learn of talent cause you're putting some reliance behind it from someone with more knowledge on the point, yes I'll say it I'm not the biggest Nick Bockwinkel brain, or old-school brain for that matter, but in your quote below, that just shows that I don't think you're in your place to tell me I haven't got a clue of what I'm talking about.
Stuff? Try four time World Champion in an era where belts actually meant something. Fuck.
This is the only time you mention Bockwinkel in your post. You then go on to cite Kurt Angle's Wikipedia page. Clearly you're researching the wrong guy has you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Sure I'll acknowledge the accomplishments that Bockwinkel has achieved, but while he may have held four world titles when they mattered, Kurt Angle accomplished things in both amateur (non scripted wrestling!) and professional wrestling.
If this mind numbing dribble swayed ANYONE to vote for Angle, I have some highly unkind words for you that would probably be taboo by Bar Room standards.
Gee do you need to continue the whole Roasted thing? it's getting old already, and you've only used it.. how many times ?
Besides, you'd probably argue the fact that many people draw a decent knowledge from their Wikipedia pages, especially their accomplishments, therefore the sheer fact that Kurt Angle has a combined 15 amateur "titles" plus a Hall of Fame induction, an all-American gold-medalist in.. Wrestling and to top it off 18 professional wrestling championships across different promotions, world champion in all of them. (except for the Power Pro wrestling promotion, I have my sincere doubts that's a world title rather than a mere heavyweight championship) and that's not to count all the "of the year" awards he's gotten from PWI and WON, sure Kurt Angle isn't ranked among the 500 greatest wrestlers of the PWI years, but I think a majority to that is the fact that he hadn't been around long enough at that point, if they were to redo it now, Kurt Angle would be incredibly high on that list, hell I might even say he'll definitely surpass Nick Bockwinkel's 18th spot.
There's a word in the English dictionary that you may want to look up. It's called "contradiction." How the fuck are you supposed to sway people into voting for Bockwinkel when you have no argument presented, and the comment you are rebutting has information? People with blind hatred usually walk into a roadblock.
I'm not doubting the abilities of Nick Bockwinkel at all. The man was talented in his line of work and the way he wrestled was pretty damn good. However, Kurt Angle wrestles in a very, very similar style that Nick does. Considering the time difference in when both men wrestled and how evolved the sport is today than it was in the yesteryears, Kurt's style (basically like Nick's style) is much more diverse and expanded upon when comparing to Bockwinkel. Nick used very basic moves, Kurt uses both very basic and more advanced moves in his arsenal, stuff that Nick would have rarely encountered during his days. How can you defend yourself against something you don't know what's about to hit you? It's like a caveman trying to avoid a semi-trailer.
Your point is vague and could be substantial, but without sufficient evidence for your own arguments you can't call bullshit on ours.
Nick Bockwinkel is probably the American I know the least about in this tournament. He was dominant in the third biggest promotion in the country at a time when interest in wrestling wasn't at it's height. However, I can't help but think he's getting a rough ride here. I know Angle was big this decade, but the vast majority of his love is for his match quality only. Bockwinkel did lose his title a few times, and I think Angle beat pretty much everyone over the years so he will get my vote, but I don't feel entirely comfortable about it.
Sure Kurt Angle is able to make some spot fests but why in the world would someone be so stupid to say Kurt Angle isn't one of the greatest technical wrestlers of this generation, or all time for that sake?
Why would I do that? Because I opt to think for myself rather than accept majority opinion on the internet as fact.
Of course I'm talking to someone who's bending over backwards to push Shawn Michaels in this tournament. Even humoring the notion that an original thought has ever entered your head is probably giving you too much credit.
I mean, do I really have to show you the match between him and Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania? do I really?
Please do. That match set the stage for me opening my eyes to the hack that Kurt Angle is. It was RVD-Lynn psychology to the max (start small and go to bigger and bigger moves until anything short of explosions are occurring... to loosely paraphrase the words of Rob Van Dam on the matter).
Oh, a headlock.
Oh, a short arm siccors.
Oh, mild brawling.
Oh, a slam into the post.
Oh, bigger moves.
Oh, a dive.
Oh, finisher-palooza.
Where's the greatness? I DARE you to show me that this is a great technical masterpiece. I fucking DOUBLE DARE your candy ass.
Now, I just happen to enjoy me some Rob Van Dam. But when Kurt Angle does the same damn thing and gets praised in ways RVD doesn't, something is wrong.
Sure Kurt Angle is able to provide spot fests, but he's also able to provide wrestling matches on a level that very few guys can compete with.
This is like saying everyone who knows nothing about puro should just take tdigle's word for it when he tells us those Japanese stars are better.
AWFUL argument.
Sure I'll acknowledge the accomplishments that Bockwinkel has achieved, but while he may have held four world titles when they mattered, Kurt Angle accomplished things in both amateur (non scripted wrestling!) and professional wrestling.
Because Kurt Angle is by far the superior wrestler to Nick Bockwinkel and could most likely wrestle circles around him, Nick wrestled in an era where high explosive moves as far as I know wasn't exactly the most widespread thing, and where a suplex was probably considered a match ender, Kurt is wrestling in an era of high offensive moves and has adapted into those styles, as I've said, has beaten pretty much everybody that is anything in this business, and therefore is adapt to quite a long range of styles, therefore could probably wrestle circles around Nick.
Of course I'm talking to someone who's bending over backwards to push Shawn Michaels in this tournament. Even humoring the notion that an original thought has ever entered your head is probably giving you too much credit.
At least I'm not promoting "Vote Batista" in various threads and my own sig.
And what makes you think an original thought hasn't entered my head? look I don't want to fight you in any way of coming off insulting, but clearly you're rather quick to judge me just because I tend to draw my knowledge around one of the better sources for actually finding out stuff about a guy, the Internet, and Wikipedia, now is that really such a big problem considering the fact that I have absolutely no other way of knowing of any of the guys in the 80's cause as far as I know, my profile says 18 years old... I have to access information somehow, right?
Please do. That match set the stage for me opening my eyes to the hack that Kurt Angle is. It was RVD-Lynn psychology to the max (start small and go to bigger and bigger moves until anything short of explosions are occurring... to loosely paraphrase the words of Rob Van Dam on the matter).
Oh, a headlock.
Oh, a short arm siccors.
Oh, mild brawling.
Oh, a slam into the post.
Oh, bigger moves.
Oh, a dive.
Oh, finisher-palooza.
Where's the greatness? I DARE you to show me that this is a great technical masterpiece. I fucking DOUBLE DARE your candy ass.
Now, I just happen to enjoy me some Rob Van Dam. But when Kurt Angle does the same damn thing and gets praised in ways RVD doesn't, something is wrong.
The reason why I consider this match to be one that should be praised for it's technical mat wrestling is the fact that much of the match circulated around elder wrestling with hold for hold wearing down an opponent, moves that Kurt Angle easily could apply to Nick, and by the looks of it, wouldn't have much problems maintaining just looking at the sheer size advantage of Kurt over Nick.
Certainly we can't always take others word for "hey this dude is gonna have to win cause I say he's better" because you might've drawn your own opinion about it, which is the matter of fact the thing that I'm doing right here when I tell you Kurt Angle is the superior wrestler of the two, and listening to a guy who has a perfectly fine knowledge around a specific era of wrestling is probably a pretty good source to actually gather your own opinion and be able to back it up when people like you come around telling people they're idiots cause they didn't vote for Nick Fucking Bockwinkel..
Sure it's a PROFESSIONAL wrestling board, but we have sections for many other things also, what's to say we're not allowed to draw from amateur wrestling? let's remember it's where Kurt has the majority of his wrestling abilities from, and this again, is to crown the greatest wrestler (be it technical, all around etc. I don't really care what ways you base it, the fact of the matter is it's to crown the greatest wrestler in some way)
Sure and I could tell you the same, Jack certainly wouldn't have gone out in the tournament, Dolph Ziggler would actually be going places in this tournament as well.
As I said in the Shawn Michaels thread, the PWI and WON staff as well as us, perhaps to a bigger extend has a knowledge for this business, and therefore you could certainly count the fact that yes it would matter something if a company that makes a living on rating your matches, rating your feuds etc. has put you in the spot to be "Match of the year" "Wrestler of the year" etc.
Because Kurt Angle is by far the superior wrestler to Nick Bockwinkel and could most likely wrestle circles around him, Nick wrestled in an era where high explosive moves as far as I know wasn't exactly the most widespread thing, and where a suplex was probably considered a match ender, Kurt is wrestling in an era of high offensive moves and has adapted into those styles, as I've said, has beaten pretty much everybody that is anything in this business, and therefore is adapt to quite a long range of styles, therefore could probably wrestle circles around Nick.
What I'm seeing here: "Kurt Angle is better because he knows more moves."
Well, shit. Why didn't you just say so? Somebody go tell Sly and KB they forgot to include Roderick Strong, Austin Aries, Dean Malenko, Matt Sydal, and Jack Evans in this tournament. They, too, know a lot of moves and wrestle in the modern era, where suplexes don't end matches.
At least I'm not promoting "Vote Batista" in various threads and my own sig.
At least I took the initiative to back somebody who it actually takes some balls to defend.
Shawn Michaels? Fuck me, even if NOBODY made a single post for him, he'd likely still make it to the elite eight. Possibly further. Could you be any more ordinary?
And what makes you think an original thought hasn't entered my head? look I don't want to fight you in any way of coming off insulting, but clearly you're rather quick to judge me just because I tend to draw my knowledge around one of the better sources for actually finding out stuff about a guy, the Internet, and Wikipedia, now is that really such a big problem considering the fact that I have absolutely no other way of knowing of any of the guys in the 80's cause as far as I know, my profile says 18 years old... I have to access information somehow, right?
You're 18 and have yet to be told of the dangers of relying too heavily on Wikipedia?
Aren't you a little behind generally accepted wisdom on this one?
Although for some reason I think you were 17 a few hours ago, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I think it's a great enough accomplishment that you aren't writing your posts in this font:
Nut up. Age is no excuse.
But I digress. I'm getting way off topic here.
To sum up what we have so far: Angle over Bockwinkel on the basis that Angle knows more moves is another awful reason to to vote Angle. More moves don't make a superior pro-wrestler. Ask around.
The reason why I consider this match to be one that should be praised for it's technical mat wrestling is the fact that much of the match circulated around elder wrestling with hold for hold wearing down an opponent
Yes, the Angle-lock, Superkick, HOLY SHIT Angle Slam from the top rope!-athon with a moonsault thrown in for good measure. Technical mat wrestling at it's finest.
moves that Kurt Angle easily could apply to Nick, and by the looks of it, wouldn't have much problems maintaining just looking at the sheer size advantage of Kurt over Nick.
Angle's had problems with Chris Benoit, AJ Styles, Rey Mysterio, and even Jay Lethal. Is a size advantage really going to make that big of a difference?
Because there's a list of active wrestlers who put on matches just as good or better than Angle that's longer than Sly's e-penis. Saying Angle does it like no other doesn't make it so.
Certainly we can't always take others word for "hey this dude is gonna have to win cause I say he's better" because you might've drawn your own opinion about it, which is the matter of fact the thing that I'm doing right here when I tell you Kurt Angle is the superior wrestler of the two, and listening to a guy who has a perfectly fine knowledge around a specific era of wrestling is probably a pretty good source to actually gather your own opinion and be able to back it up
Your grammar is hurting me, but I'm going to try my best.
Taking the word of someone who "has a perfectly fine knowledge around a specific era of wrestling" isn't gathering your own opinion. It's looking at the opinion of someone else for a few seconds and thinking it's made you informed (by some form of text-based osmosis, no doubt). It hasn't. Maybe in a few years you'll understand the failure of logic you've committed. Normally it's hard to grasp such things when you've already admitted to being an ignoramus and the intellectual equivalent of a fetus.
Sure it's a PROFESSIONAL wrestling board, but we have sections for many other things also,
OH, SHIT! ANGLESAULT ON THE FUCKING GYMNASIUM MATS!
JUST LOOK AT HIM TAG JOE SCRAGLY SCRAPPER WITH THOSE RIGHT HANDS!
ANKLE LOCK!
Classic calls from Kurt Angle's amateur contests, correct?
Sure and I could tell you the same, Jack certainly wouldn't have gone out in the tournament, Dolph Ziggler would actually be going places in this tournament as well.
Enlighten me. Where do they stand as far as the best amateur wrestlers of all time are concerned?
You know, since you seem to have so much to say on the subject.
Go on. Justify the existence of amateur wrestling as a discussion in this tournament and show us why you're the person to listen to regarding it.
As I said in the Shawn Michaels thread, the PWI and WON staff as well as us, perhaps to a bigger extend has a knowledge for this business, and therefore you could certainly count the fact that yes it would matter something if a company that makes a living on rating your matches, rating your feuds etc. has put you in the spot to be "Match of the year" "Wrestler of the year" etc.
Meltz has moved most of his focus over to MMA and PWI can't decide whether or not it's kayfabe. Your post does nothing to address any of these factors or make me think that I should take their MOTY picks more seriously than X's, GD's, or CANADAHATESCENA316.
You thinking that you're argument's better is even more absurd.
Kurt Angle doesn't lose to athletes who are worse than he is? Really? Is that how you explain him being a supporting character for most of his time in the best wrestling company on Earth?
This isn't a booking contest, it's a wrestling contest. And Angle is a far superior wrestler to the majority of these folks in the tourney. Even Nick Bockwinkel, who's no slouch by any means, but is going against someone who counters everything he can do.
Except promo. Angle lost his edge when he became a generic serious guy rather than keeping his goofy charm. Bockwinkel never lost his edge.
If by that you mean to say he's the guy who gets praised as a technical wrestler while giving us spot fests that would make Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn blush, I agree.
Wow. So you're saying Angle's known for his 'spots' than his wrestling? As opposed to be known as an Olympic Gold Medal freestyle wrestler or being arguably the best wrestler in the world right now, or for beating nearly everyone he's come in contact with? This is why Bar Flies' shouldn't even say anything in this tournament.
Stuff? Try four time World Champion in an era where belts actually meant something. Fuck.
So Angle's title reigns didn't mean much when Stone Cold, Undertaker, HHH, The Rock, Mankind, and Chris Jericho were wrestling? Fine then. We can discount the undisputed title reign for Jericho, EVERY title reign by Triple H, Stone Cold, and The Rock. Seriously, dude.
This is the only time you mention Bockwinkel in your post. You then go on to cite Kurt Angle's Wikipedia page. Clearly you're researching the wrong guy has you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Orrr he's just trying to show you how much better Angle is than Bockwinkel.
If this mind numbing dribble swayed ANYONE to vote for Angle, I have some highly unkind words for you that would probably be taboo by Bar Room standards.
Overall intellegence? That's debatable. But wrestling intelligence? I'll give Angle the edge on that. Angle would simply out wrestle someone who was known as a finesse wrestler who used underhanded tactics to win matches. Angle doesn't need underhanded to beat Bockwinkel.
Isn't it a rule that Angle can't finish a match without using both of his signature moves at least four times? Couple that with the rolling German suplexes and you have another crap argument in the books for Angle.
Boom. Roasted.
The poor arguments for Angle alone are enough to justify voting against him.
Kurt Angle is one of the most overrated wrestlers of all time. He wouldn't know the difference between face and heel psychology if it walked up to him and cut his testicles off. Look at all of his matches especially when he was a heel. He always did the pulling down of the straps and high-risk moves which always made the crowd pop for him. I would go far as to say Angle is the main reason why Cena has been hated for so long. During their matches in 2005, Angle always try to do the high-risk moves to please the crowd and make Cena look like a bitch even though he was a heel. His match with HBK at WM 21 started off good then devolved into the ultimate spotfest halfway through. Angle doesn't have sheer size over much of anybody. At his peak he was about 225-240 pounds and he's only about six feet tall. He's been beat by people far bigger and smaller than him.
Kayfabe is more significant to professional wrestling than amateur skills.
So is importance to the company one works for.
Discounting them simply because it's not how you would vote is silly. Laughable, even. Those are extremely important aspects of the profession.
And Angle is a far superior wrestler to the majority of these folks in the tourney. Even Nick Bockwinkel, who's no slouch by any means, but is going against someone who counters everything he can do.
The average person will be more into his Angle Slam, his rolling Ankle Lock, his German suplexex, his moonsault, and so on. Which is normally all he does in the latter half of his matches. Spot, spot, spot.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I'm not wrong.
As opposed to be known as an Olympic Gold Medal freestyle wrestler or being arguably the best wrestler in the world right now
I think anyone with common sense would know that I could count the people in the current pro-wrestling audience who've seen Angle freestyle on one hand.
Thanks for showing you have no common sense.
This is why Bar Flies' shouldn't even say anything in this tournament.
Considering the way a title change was expected every few months, it was almost a given that every third upper midcarder with some heat was going to get a shot. Angle didn't belong where he was, but the booking philosophy at the time put him in that position.
Fine then. We can discount the undisputed title reign for Jericho, EVERY title reign by Triple H, Stone Cold, and The Rock. Seriously, dude.
Ideally, you'd be right. Jericho's title reigns have been utter shit and subject to pointless stunt booking at its best.
Austin would have three-ish reigns in a perfect world. Rock would have nowhere near nine. And you can't defend all of Hunter's reigns to me. It's simply not possible.
That's parts to it, yes I'll give you that, but what I'm really saying is that Kurt would be experienced enough to know how to counter a Piledriver, or some of the signature moves of Nick Bockwinkel, moves that are incredibly default today, and therefore Kurt would've been exposed to them, and would probably have a proper knowledge to actually counter every thinkable move Nick could dish at him.
At least I took the initiative to back somebody who it actually takes some balls to defend.
Shawn Michaels? Fuck me, even if NOBODY made a single post for him, he'd likely still make it to the elite eight. Possibly further. Could you be any more ordinary?
So who gives a damn if I'm supporting Shawn Michaels through this tournament?
At least I take the time to support my favorite wrestler, maybe next year I'll support someone else, but this is my first tournament, and I'll be damned if someone tells me "you can't back Shawn up cause he'll be fine by himself"
You're 18 and have yet to be told of the dangers of relying too heavily on Wikipedia?
Aren't you a little behind generally accepted wisdom on this one?
Although for some reason I think you were 17 a few hours ago, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I think it's a great enough accomplishment that you aren't your posts in this font:
I've found that a decent amount of knowledge from Wikipedia has proved to be true, and therefore I choose to rely on it for the majority of my research on a wrestler yes.
And I know age is no excuse, but it's a good enough argument to actually relying on the Internet when you're not able to actually be around to follow someone through their entire career match by match to see "oh in 19whogivesafuck he defeated someone for some belt that has absolutely no significance today.. how exciting.. I think I just jizzed my pants"
To sum up what we have so far: Angle over Bockwinkel on the basis that Angle knows more moves is another awful reason to to vote Angle. More moves don't make a superior pro-wrestler. Ask around.
Oh I know, but it'll definitely put you in the front race by the simple fact that said wrestler knows a counter to his opponents moves because he's able to dish out the punishment through the exact same move, and therefore would know how the hell to counter it.
Besides I'm not resting my trust purely on Kurt Angles wrestling abilities, I find him to be a rather decent promo cutter, and while he may not be able to compete with Nick or Ric Flair or who the hell you're gonna throw at me, it's enough to balance out the overall result that makes me put Kurt Angle over Nick.
Yes, the Angle-lock, Superkick, HOLY SHIT Angle Slam from the top rope!-athon with a moonsault thrown in for good measure. Technical mat wrestling at it's finest.
Yes I know that's clearly the spot fest side of it, I'm guessing you've quite obviously watched the match, so now it's my time to look at you with a serious face and ask you "What in the blue hell do you call the first 5 minutes or so of the match then? Cuddling?"
Angle's had problems with Chris Benoit, AJ Styles, Rey Mysterio, and even Jay Lethal. Is a size advantage really going to make that big of a difference?
It might, all depending on how the move is applied, what move is applied and to what extend the opponent already is worn down, clearly an Angle Lock won't make the true opponents tap when it's applied 20 seconds into the match, but after 30 minutes of wrestling, the exact same move might just make you tap out rather quickly.
Because there's a list of active wrestlers who put on matches just as good or better than Angle that's longer than Sly's e-penis. Saying Angle does it like no other doesn't make it so.
I know it doesn't make it so, but the fact is that while there might be some people that's able to put on a better match it doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna be technically praised rather than praised for it's insane spots and because of the actual result, rather than the back and forth hold for hold wrestling that was made in the match.
I believe for example Chris Benoit isn't remembered for the results, or the insane spots, but because he was able to put on amazing hold for hold matches.
Your grammar is hurting me, but I'm going to try my best.
Taking the word of someone who "has a perfectly fine knowledge around a specific era of wrestling" isn't gathering your own opinion. It's looking at the opinion of someone else for a few seconds and thinking it's made you informed (by some form of text-based osmosis, no doubt). It hasn't. Maybe in a few years you'll understand the failure of logic you've committed. Normally it's hard to grasp such things when you've already admitted to being an ignoramus and the intellectual equivalent of a fetus.
Certainly I must be a special case then? because I'm perfectly able to make my own opinions around a wrestler purely by reading some arguments for him, or against him, Isn't this why we're actually debating things just like this? to sway people's opinions to vote for said wrestler, if not, I've failed to see why we both have large texts saying "VOTE...."
True, there's not a ton of discussion about amateur wrestling, but that doesn't mean that we can't draw stuff from it, it's made an impact on his career, and it's gonna continue to be a large part of the reason he's able to put on such great matches, because of his amateur background, amateur backgrounds or not, it matters, as long as it's affected your professional career.
Touche.
Certainly everybody has to learn a certain extend of moves with only professional background, but don't come here and tell me a headlock, some variation of a throw, has absolutely no connection between professional and amateur wrestling? if you're to do that, it's gonna be quite clear who's the fool here.
I've never said I'm the one to listen to, and quite fairly I know I'm not very knowledged on amateur wrestling, but the matter is that either way you turn it, Jack Swagger for example being an all-American in wrestling, why would you want to discredit that and leave him out of a tournament of amateur wrestlers if we were ever to have one?
Meltz has moved most of his focus over to MMA and PWI can't decide whether or not it's kayfabe. Your post does nothing to address any of these factors or make me think that I should take their MOTY picks more seriously than X's, GD's, or CANADAHATESCENA316.
I'm not saying we shouldn't listen to X's ratings, KB's ratings, GD's ratings or whomever wants to dish out his opinion on a show, a match etc. but the matter is that someone actually sits down to rate these matches, and certainly that has to mean something with what's said to be experts of the business, saying that their ratings doesn't matter even if it was the last opinion on earth, would be plain stupid.
That's parts to it, yes I'll give you that, but what I'm really saying is that Kurt would be experienced enough to know how to counter a Piledriver, or some of the signature moves of Nick Bockwinkel, moves that are incredibly default today, and therefore Kurt would've been exposed to them, and would probably have a proper knowledge to actually counter every thinkable move Nick could dish at him.
Bockwinkel's beaten guys who've countered his moves before. So the fact that Angle knows counters really has little effect on the result of the match.
And I know age is no excuse, but it's a good enough argument to actually relying on the Internet when you're not able to actually be around to follow someone through their entire career match by match to see "oh in 19whogivesafuck he defeated someone for some belt that has absolutely no significance today.. how exciting.. I think I just jizzed my pants"
Today's belts have no significance today, so knocking the titles of yesteryear is probably a road best left untravled.
Besides I'm not resting my trust purely on Kurt Angles wrestling abilities, I find him to be a rather decent promo cutter, and while he may not be able to compete with Nick or Ric Flair or who the hell you're gonna throw at me, it's enough to balance out the overall result that makes me put Kurt Angle over Nick.
Yes I know that's clearly the spot fest side of it, I'm guessing you've quite obviously watched the match, so now it's my time to look at you with a serious face and ask you "What in the blue hell do you call the first 5 minutes or so of the match then? Cuddling?"
I've seen Jeff Hardy matches that started in a similar manner. That doesn't mean Jeff Hardy is wrestling technical masterpieces, does it?
Also, when a guy can't get another guy's shoulders on the mat properly in a simple battle between headlocks, does it really speak THAT high of the Angle-Michaels encounters? It clearly doesn't make them "masterpieces."
I know it doesn't make it so, but the fact is that while there might be some people that's able to put on a better match it doesn't necessarily mean that it's gonna be technically praised rather than praised for it's insane spots and because of the actual result, rather than the back and forth hold for hold wrestling that was made in the match.
You still don't see Angle as a spot wrestler? Really?
And you still don't see that mat wrestling isn't the end-all, be-all of making a good wrestling match?
What's wrong here?
Someone back me up on this stuff.
I believe for example Chris Benoit isn't remembered for the results, or the insane spots, but because he was able to put on amazing hold for hold matches.
Benoit, at the peak of his career, was more of a brawler than anything. What are you talking about?
Touche.
Certainly everybody has to learn a certain extend of moves with only professional background, but don't come here and tell me a headlock, some variation of a throw, has absolutely no connection between professional and amateur wrestling? if you're to do that, it's gonna be quite clear who's the fool here.
Jeff Hardy and Edge do plenty of headlocks. Does that make them technical masters?
I'm not saying we shouldn't listen to X's ratings, KB's ratings, GD's ratings or whomever wants to dish out his opinion on a show, a match etc. but the matter is that someone actually sits down to rate these matches, and certainly that has to mean something with what's said to be experts of the business, saying that their ratings doesn't matter even if it was the last opinion on earth, would be plain stupid.
What I'm seeing here: "Kurt Angle is better because he knows more moves."
Well, shit. Why didn't you just say so? Somebody go tell Sly and KB they forgot to include Roderick Strong, Austin Aries, Dean Malenko, Matt Sydal, and Jack Evans in this tournament. They, too, know a lot of moves and wrestle in the modern era, where suplexes don't end matches.
Actually, I believe he's trying to say that Kurt Angle knows a wide array of submission holds which Bockwinkel would have to expend energy fighting out of. And as Kurt Angle knows so many, and has the amateur wrestling skills that he posesses, he will eventually wear Bockwinkel down until he can lock in the Ankle Lock for the win.
Shawn Michaels? Fuck me, even if NOBODY made a single post for him, he'd likely still make it to the elite eight. Possibly further. Could you be any more ordinary?
Agreed, Shawn Michaels is damn good and even more popular, and is a prime candidate to win this year. However, I don't see how this is something to criticise.
Wikipedia is about as accurate as Encyclopedia Britanicca. It's also a great place to start research from, because any good articles will have reputable sources cited.
To sum up what we have so far: Angle over Bockwinkel on the basis that Angle knows more moves is another awful reason to to vote Angle. More moves don't make a superior pro-wrestler. Ask around.
Allow me to make my own summary of your points: Bockwinkel over Angle because Angle is an overrated spotmonkey. How about you demonstrate some valid points to demonstrate that Bockwinkel > Angle. Rather than insulting Angle.
Yes, the Angle-lock, Superkick, HOLY SHIT Angle Slam from the top rope!-athon with a moonsault thrown in for good measure. Technical mat wrestling at it's finest.
Allow me to do the same for Angle vs Benoit at Mania 17. Crossface counter, Ankle-lock counter, Crossface reversal into rollup, Ankle-lock reversed into Crossface, Finisher steals, ref bump, Crossface, Angle taps, Ankle-lock, failed counter, Grapevine, Benoit taps. Spot wrestling at its finest.
Angle's had problems with Chris Benoit, AJ Styles, Rey Mysterio, and even Jay Lethal. Is a size advantage really going to make that big of a difference?
Angle was roughly the same size as Benoit. And as Nick Bockwinkel wrestles in a fashion which bears no resemblence to the other people you listed they can be discounted. Also, unless being 2 inches taller and billed as a pound lighter is a massive advantage, there's really very little in it, size wise.
Because there's a list of active wrestlers who put on matches just as good or better than Angle that's longer than Sly's e-penis. Saying Angle does it like no other doesn't make it so.
Match quality is subjective. Also, what I think he was trying to say is that very few wrestlers can wrestle Angle's style of match as well as Kurt Angle. Whether or not he posesses a great deal of ring psychology or not is irrelevent. Because lack of psychology or not, Angle is still a damn good wrestler.
Saying that Angle's amateur background is irrelavent to his pro wrestling career is like saying Ken Shamrock's MMA background was irrelavent to his Pro Wrestling career.
I do believe he was refering to Angle's mat skills. I.e. his ability to take down and apply holds to people. Rather than Angle's arsenal of showmanship based skills (like moonsaults and punches)
Coco, throughout this thread you've been arguing against Angle based on one premise, that he is overrated. That's great, vote against him, personal preverance is certainly a valid criterion for voting. However, if you could demonstrate exactly why Bockwinkel is better than Angle rather than insulting people and asserting the overratedness of Angle you might sway more people to Bockwinkel's side.
Actually, I believe he's trying to say that Kurt Angle knows a wide array of submission holds which Bockwinkel would have to expend energy fighting out of. And as Kurt Angle knows so many, and has the amateur wrestling skills that he posesses, he will eventually wear Bockwinkel down until he can lock in the Ankle Lock for the win.
If this is the case, Angle would never be defeated by anyone without an amateur background or anyone with a smaller moveset.
That argument makes no sense because anybody who's ever watching wrestling knows it doesn't work like that. Saying "amateur skills" shouldn't get someone an automatic bye based on the logic you used.
So you're saying that you're better because you're defending a wrestler who by ability doesn't really deserve to make it to the elite 8.
Deserve has nothing to do with it. Batista deserves it as much as HBK. He just doesn't have the same support on here.
Allow me to make my own summary of your points: Bockwinkel over Angle because Angle is an overrated spotmonkey. How about you demonstrate some valid points to demonstrate that Bockwinkel > Angle. Rather than insulting Angle.
Bockwinkel reigned longer in an era where title reigns weren't given to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who got moderately over. Angle, in an era where everybody gets title reigns, never broke from the pack as a major champion.
Bockwinkel was a superior mic worker who never lost his edge while the goofy Kurt that got him over vanished after a couple years to be replaced by the average, generic hack that is intense Angle.
Bockwinkel didn't need all the crazy moves Kurt does because the few big moves Bockwinkel did mattered. Guys in that era simply hit harder than they do today. Which is why a five year title reign is even more impressive.
Why can't Angle keep people down with his Slam? Simple. He hits like a pussy.
If Bockwinkel gave Kurt a gentle rub down by 1977 standards, Kurt Mangled (a name he earned by beign frail beyond the call of duty in an era of frail models) would likely be spending the next three months in traction.
Allow me to do the same for Angle vs Benoit at Mania 17. Crossface counter, Ankle-lock counter, Crossface reversal into rollup, Ankle-lock reversed into Crossface, Finisher steals, ref bump, Crossface, Angle taps, Ankle-lock, failed counter, Grapevine, Benoit taps. Spot wrestling at its finest.
Angle was roughly the same size as Benoit. And as Nick Bockwinkel wrestles in a fashion which bears no resemblence to the other people you listed they can be discounted.
Which brings us to the fact that Angle's never wrestled anyone like Bockwinkel. He wouldn't know how to deal with someone who cuts that pace and whispers sweet, articulate nothings into his ear while bringing him to his limit.
Because lack of psychology or not, Angle is still a damn good wrestler.
The majority of moves Angle uses didn't come from his expierences as an amateur. When's the last time you watched an Angle match?
I do believe he was refering to Angle's mat skills. I.e. his ability to take down and apply holds to people. Rather than Angle's arsenal of showmanship based skills (like moonsaults and punches)
I could go on and on with this, but look at the score. It's the cocky point guard who just made a lucky shot and is taunting the better team because he did so. All I can say is 'look at the scoreboard.'.
And I'm not discounting Nick Bockwinkel at all. Fine wrestler and athlete. But Angle is a far better wrestler and far better athlete.
And Coco, I'm sure that there isn't one person who knows me as 'the guy who talks about his sex life in the Bar Room' or considers me a Bar Fly. I pride myself on knowing a lot about various aspects of pro wrestling and watching enough of it to form an opinion on who would win an actual match between two people from different eras. And my conclusion is that Angle would beat Bockwinkel decisively.
And Bockwinkel's never went up against a guy who can lock in and give you three German suplexes before you even catch a breath. Angle is very good at what he does and was made champion because he was believable as competition for Stone Cold, The Rock and Undertaker.
I could go on and on with this, but look at the score. It's the cocky point guard who just made a lucky shot and is taunting the better team because he did so. All I can say is 'look at the scoreboard.'.
And I'm not discounting Nick Bockwinkel at all. Fine wrestler and athlete. But Angle is a far better wrestler and far better athlete.
And Coco, I'm sure that there isn't one person who knows me as 'the guy who talks about his sex life in the Bar Room' or considers me a Bar Fly. I pride myself on knowing a lot about various aspects of pro wrestling and watching enough of it to form an opinion on who would win an actual match between two people from different eras. And my conclusion is that Angle would beat Bockwinkel decisively.
And Bockwinkel's never went up against a guy who can lock in and give you three German suplexes before you even catch a breath. Angle is very good at what he does and was made champion because he was believable as competition for Stone Cold, The Rock and Undertaker.
Angle was not believable as champion the first time. He won the title from The Rock because of help from Rikishi. He beat the Undertaker because of help from his brother. He won a clusterfuck of a HIAC where the title was an afterthought. He beat HHH because Austin interfered. When he ran up against the Rock at No Way Out, he lost and went straight to the midcard.
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Vote Angle.
