Round One: Punisher vs. Achilles

Discussion in '4th Annual BattleZone Tournament' started by JGlass, Aug 2, 2016.

?

Who wins?

  1. Punisher

  2. Achilles

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    2,635
    Round One...

    [​IMG]

    Tales of heroes stretch back to early human history, but the first epic tale to be recorded was of Achilles in Homer's Iliad. Thousands of years later and we have thousands of heroes to choose from, but Punisher stands out among them as the personification of vengeance, willing to cross any line to deliver his unique form of justice. Does Punisher have the arsenal needed to take down Achilles, or will one of the world's most ancient and famous heroes avenge his own demise and fight on to round two?

    FIGHT!
     
    #1
  2. Hyorinmaru

    Hyorinmaru Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
    E-Fed Mod

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,065
    Likes Received:
    1,800
    The Punisher is an amazing hero/anti-hero but he has never faced anyone with the abilities of Achilles. I mean The Punisher is one if the best ass kickers in a genre of entertainment but what can he do against a man who is completely invulnerable to anything he can dish out except for a small area on his heel.


    Granted Punisher would probably go into the battle having done his homework and knowing about the only vulnerability Achilles has but would he be able to capitalize on it while trying to fend him off at the same time? I don't think so because while Punisher would know to attach the heel Achilles would obviously know that he would need to protect it as well.

    In the end while he would dish out more punishment than he probably ever has before I don't think he would be able to get the heel in time before Achilles kicks the ever living shit out of him.

    Achilles wins this in one hell of a battle
     
    #2
  3. Alex

    Alex King Of The Wasteland

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,608
    Likes Received:
    755
    Achilles isn't going to stand still to allow Punisher to take out his heel. I mean Achilles was killed by Paris after fighting Memnon and celebrating.

    Punisher would probably put up a valiant fight ala Hector but Achilles would win.
     
    #3
  4. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
    Staff Member Moderator E-Fed Mod

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,795
    Likes Received:
    1,474
    Achilles and it's not all that close. He is damn near immortal. Punisher is a marine, which should give him an edge against many combatants. But Achilles is the greatest soldier in mythology. As there is only one way Punisher could defeat Achilles, Achilles can defeat him in numerous ways. Bet on the Greek hero.
     
    #4
    GI Cake likes this.
  5. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    2,635
    Ya'll motherfuckers crazy.

    Achilles weakness is in his name, you think Punisher is going to miss that glaringly obvious clue? What's more, I don't think Achilles will be able to do anything to really damage Punisher. Punisher wears Kevlar armor that can stop bullets, let alone arrows and javelins.

    Even in hand to hand combat, I'd give the edge to Punisher. Achilles is well trained, sure, but he only knows one style: whatever style the Myrmidons used. Punisher knows multiple martial arts that have been perfected over the centuries that they have existed and have moves designed to counter any other type of attack that one may face in combat.

    Another thing to think about is how will Achilles react when he gets shot at by high powered guns or when explosives are lobbed at him. Do you think he's going to be able to adapt to that in a second? Hell no, it would probably take him several days to figure out what the fuck he just saw, let alone figure out how to combat it.

    Achilles' shield and armor would be mangled within seconds after the battle started. Achilles would face a barrage of bullets that would make it impossible for him to advance his attack. Brutalized and demoralized, Punisher would quickly flank Achilles for a heel shot that would leave Achilles dead in humiliating fashion.

    This fight is won by Punisher. It's SO won by Punisher.
     
    #5
    Jack-Hammer likes this.
  6. Alex

    Alex King Of The Wasteland

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,608
    Likes Received:
    755
    Achilles doesn't need armour. Minus his heel he's invulnerable. So Punisher can plug away until he runs out of bullets.

    This would end up a close quarters fight and while Punisher may be very good in that regard Achilles is better as that's his style. Even if you want to take away his weapons Ancient Greek warriors knew grappling and wrestling so Achilles could get Punisher down and snap his neck
     
    #6
  7. Jack-Hammer

    Jack-Hammer YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    12,990
    Likes Received:
    3,813
    I have be in the minority and go with the Punisher here. If you've ever read any of the Ancient Greek myths, and I have, one thing you'll note is that nearly every character featured, whether it be a god, hero king or what have you, is incredibly, mind numbingly overconfident. Achilles himself was killed in the myth due in no small part to his own arrogance and it's not as though Punisher is ignorant as to what Achilles vulnerability is.

    Could Achilles possibly decide use some sort of protection for his heel? Of course. Would he? Eh, it could go either way really but Achilles strikes me as someone who wouldn't consider a purely mortal adversary any sort of significant threat.

    Also, if I remember correctly, it's not as though Achilles has a whole lot in his arsenal that's going to do a whole lot of damage to the Punisher. Achilles didn't have any sort of special armor or weapons crafted for him and given to him by the gods, so javelins and Greek short swords won't do a whole lot against the Kevlar armor the Punisher uses.

    If someone wants to go for Achilles, more power to 'em. However, I think a lot of people see the word "invulnerability" and just automatically write off the Punisher without looking below the surface. Achilles uses ancient, archaic weapons of human creation, he has a specific vulnerability that's well known and Frank Castle has the ingenuity and resourcefulness to be able to take advantage of it. I'm going with Punisher on this.
     
    #7
  8. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
    Staff Member Moderator E-Fed Mod

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,795
    Likes Received:
    1,474
    This cannot be argued. But I do wish to sport with you about the rest of your post.

    Kevlar wasn't meant to hold up against piercing blows. Achilles had a sword in The Iliad. It's also worth noting that whereas Achilles would be wearing a helmet, Punisher doesn't, leaving more exposure for an attack.

    When it comes to armor, Punisher might as well be wearing a plate of armor that sucks. Achilles is like 99% armor.

    Achilles is a Greek hero with nymph blood. Punisher is a human. How is Punisher going to overpower the same guy that the gods had to forcibly restrain from sacking Troy? It's not about who knows more fighting techniques. It's who could execute them better. Achilles would beat Punisher old school.

    Incendiary weapons were used in Ancient Greece. The soldier would most likely think the gun was some siege weapon. Achilles might raise an eyebrow to the machine in Punisher's hands, questioning Hephaestus on giving a mortal such a weapon, but he isn't scarred for life. Imagine some random child hitting you with something you don't know except that it's loud but harmless. That's Achilles looking at Punisher.

    How is Punisher going to respond when Achilles runs towards him? How is he getting a shot of his heel then?

    How can Achilles be brutalized if he is impervious to the bullets? You're banking on Punisher getting a clear shot of his heel, which as a marksman isn't a huge leap, but you have him suffering psychological trauma and being physically tortured by things he can't be hurt by in order for Punisher to get the perfect shot in. If his weaponry was shattered into pieces by the bullets, Achilles would go in for the kill. Close range Punisher is as good as dead.

    I agree Frank Castle should know Achilles's weak spot. But The Punisher would need a lucky break in order to get to it.
     
    #8
  9. JGlass

    JGlass Unregistered User

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    2,635
    Achilles doesn't need armor? That's weird, because he sure wore a lot of it...

    What do you think is going to happen to Achilles when Punisher is shooting him? He might be bulletproof, but that doesn't mean the laws of physics don't apply to him. The force of the bullets would likely knock him on the ground, or at the very least make him unable to advance. I don't think this fight would ever get to the point where it becomes hand to hand. Punisher would use bullets to pin Achilles down, toss in a grenade, and that's the end: the explosion would easily rip Achilles' heel out, thus killing him.

    Even if it did come to a close combat fight, I still think the fight easily swings in favor of Punisher. Greeks may know how to grapple, but Punisher is also an immensely talented hand to hand combat, and is an master practitioner of Nash Ryu Jujutsu, Ninjutsu, Shorin-ryu Karate, Hwa Rang Do, and Chin Na, as well as Krav Maga knife combat.

    Punisher has been fighting bad guys with guns for a long time and has only gotten shot in the head a handful of times. If he's able to avoid getting shot in the head by bullets, he'll surely be able to avoid arrows and javelins.

    To your point regarding Achilles's sword... I don't think he'd be able to get in range to even use it. Punisher would use guns and grenades to keep him at bay until the opportunity to shoot Achilles in the heel presented itself.

    Yeah, the gods restrained him from sacking Troy, but not from sacking Troy single-handedly: from leading his army to sacking Troy. And the gods weren't so much concerned about his strength, but his rage. The whole point of the Illiad is that Achilles is driven by rage and slowly loses his humanity until he ruthlessly kills Hector with the intent of desecrating his deceased body.

    I would argue that Achilles's rage works against him in this battle: Punisher will stay cool and execute a plan while Achilles will blindly charge into battle as he did against Hector.

    Incendiary weapons are not the same as guns...

    And again, the bullets may not cause any grievous injury to Achilles, but that will only make the force of the bullet push Achilles back even more. The Punisher might not be able to do any damage to Achilles (apart from his ankle) with his guns, but he can certainly use them to control the pace and geography of the battle.

    How about shooting him with a shotgun that sends Achilles flying back? Again, Achilles isn't immune to the laws of physics, he's just invulnerable. He's not the Juggernaut.

    Again, Punisher is far from "as good as dead" in a close range scenario. He's probably killed more people in hand-to-hand combat than Achilles has (he does some of his best work in close range), and he definitely has the knowledge and physical ability to counter a charge even if Achilles managed to pull that off before being knocked on his ass with a shotgun blast or a grenade.

    Punisher doesn't need luck. Punisher needs you to start recognizing the shortcomings of Achilles' invulnerability and respect his strengths.
     
    #9
  10. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
    E-Fed Mod

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,294
    Likes Received:
    1,698
    I see that this thread has taken off. This seems like a pretty good and close contest. When I was researching Achilles I found that by age 6 he was fast enough to catch deer, which can run at least 40 mph, and he could kill a full growth lion. So as a full grown man he'd obviously be well beyond this. I wasn't able to find much on his combat speed, but I assume he was probably superhuman on top of his invulnerability.

    Punisher though, surprised me. The official Marvel handbook lists him as being as fast and as strong as Hawkeye, who can fire arrows faster than the human eye can track and can lift and flip over cars with just one arm. So Punisher should be able to hold his own with the Greek hero should they get into a fist fight.

    Speed and strength really aren't the issues here. It's Achilles invulnerability versus Punisher's superior weapons. Punisher, despite being slightly superhuman himself, can still be killed by arrows or a sword or spear through the chest.

    Punisher's strategy would most likely be to pepper Achilles from a distance and use trial and error until he uncovers Achilles weakness. Both of these men were military trained and have loads of combat experience. Achilles has arrows, but obviously not as many as Punisher has bullets to spare. His best strategy would be to just plow through a barrage of bullets and try to hack the guy with his sword. But considering from what I've grasped their comparable speed would allow Punisher to duck and dodge or even counter with a knife. Punishers superior weapons actually give him the advantage. I'd say it would be only a matter of time before Punisher finds Achilles weakness.

    Unless someone can present to me a superior Achilles speed feat that I may have glossed over, then I'd have to say that Punisher would win this war of attrition.
     
    #10
  11. Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.

    Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. Kamehamehaaaaa!!

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,439
    Likes Received:
    370
    Is this a hand-to-hand combat? Then Achilles wins.

    Is this a battle where you can just beat your opponent any means necessary? Then Punisher would shoot Achilles, see that does not work.
    And then he would blow him up with some sort of missile thrower.

    Or you mean to tell me that a bullet or that explosion wouldn't reach his heel?

    Remember people, the one thing that Illiad teaches us, is that you may be a strong OP mofo, like Achilles, but in order to win and become great, the brains is what matters, like Odysseus.

    So, vote Punisher.
     
    #11
  12. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,908
    Likes Received:
    708
    Achilles is not invulnerable - this was a myth created 8 centuries after the Iliad. Why would Achilles wear body and head armor if he was indestructible? Why would he even bother avoiding Hector's attack? He was the greatest warrior of his time but he was so in a time of simple weapons.

    Here is another problem for our ancient friend - he's living, so he doesn't know he has a weakness! Frank Castle is an expert marksman and strategist and (coming from the same planet we inhabit) knows all about the heel.

    I see no evidence why an armor piercing bullet or a head shot wouldn't drop Achilles but even giving the invulnerability theory kudos, the poor guy doesn't even know to protect it and Castle would drop him like a bad habit!
     
    #12
  13. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
    E-Fed Mod

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,754
    Likes Received:
    1,807
    Guns over swords y'all.

    Seriously though, The Punisher presents something that Achilles has never seen, a hail of gunfire. I can't to I've ever been shot at, at least to my knowledge, but I have to say if I were being shot at, that it would cause me to panic and take cover. Granted I'm not great warrior like Achilles, but the dude has never been shot at with a gun. He would definitely panic.

    Invincible or not, it isn't like bullets would just bounce off him. They would definitely knock him back or on his ass. I'm sure The Punisher, with his mass arsenal, would be able to pull something out to knock Achilles down long enough to go for the kill, even if he only can go for the fabled Achilles heel.
     
    #13
  14. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
    Staff Member Moderator E-Fed Mod

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,795
    Likes Received:
    1,474
    Achilles IS a myth, so I don't understand this line of reasoning. His mythology doesn't just encompass The Iliad.

    Soldiers are supposed to keep to a strict dress code. He'd look pretty funny wandering around a battlefield in nothing but a smile. Also because Achilles's armor is an important plot device that made Hector believe he had killed Achilles when in reality it was Patroclus.

    Before then Achilles avoided Hector and never wanted to kill him. When Patroclus died, he wanted Hector to suffer. What better way to show you're a better soldier than by dodging attacks you never had to dodge? Even the Troy movie shows Achilles was mostly toying with him:

    [YOUTUBE]NQ62frK74u0[/YOUTUBE]

    Achilles is a prideful character. That and his harsh military training would have him impulsively dodging anyways. Modern soldiers in full body armor don't just ignore their training and run through everybody not wearing armor. Achilles wouldn't either.

    Swords and arrows still kill human beings.

    I don't know where this idea of Castle being an expert marksman came from, but it isn't based on fact. When he made his debut in The Amazing Spiderman, he missed me with every shot. Daredevil, missed his shots. Captain America. Even against Bullseye, another "expert marksman" it turns into a wrestling contest. He can kill your average thug and mercenary with his skill no argument there, but against superheroes and villains he isn't that good a marksman. Punisher is going to have to hit his heel (which heel?) and he can't even get body hits in on the Marvel Universe whose names we recognize. Why does anybody believe he can get the job done?

    Achilles is a superhero from Ancient Greece. That alone is a problem for Castle.




    In this tournament I completely forgot Achilles would carry his personalized shield. A shield made by Haephestus himself. The Punisher isn't going to cut through that thing with guns. He would have a hard enough time breaking through a regular Greek shield.

    I see yours and JGlass's argument that Punisher's firepower would surprise Achilles and maybe even have him recoil due to Achilles being unfamiliar with modern weaponry (Let's not pretend The Law of Physics is respected in comic books, please). I expect the final round to consist of nothing but Sci-Fi characters by this logic.


    When it comes to being tough in their own universe, Punisher has died several times. Achilles died once and it was from an arrow dipped in the blood of a Hydra. Punisher will have to get a lucky shot in, and that's IF the bullet is stronger than the toxin of a mythical beast. Vote Achilles.
     
    #14
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"