Round 8: Little Jerry Lawler -vs- Numbers

[D-Man]

Will ROH continue to be successful despite losing a number of their talent to WWE and TNA?

This is a eighth round match in the Debater's League. LJL is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I will be debating that ROH will continue to be successful and I will go first.

CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, and Nigel McGuinness are just a few of the wrestlers currently employed by WWE and TNA who have wrestled for Ring of Honor. It has been criticized by many who believe that ROH are just full of indy wrestlers who can do 2000 flips and fans have been labeled "mindless sheep". Nevertheless, you cannot deny the success that Punk and Joe have had in their respective companies. Obviously, somebody saw something in them that was good enough to be promoted to the big leagues so to speak.

When I think of success, I relate it to the expectations that are levied upon it. ROH was never meant to take the world by storm and rival the WWE like TNA is currently trying to do. I believe ROH is trying to appeal to the fan who likes pure wrestling, the fan who likes entertaining wrestling, the fan who likes their wrestlers to show personality and not be hold back from wrestling the style that they want to employ. Fans of ROH hate the WWE mainly because the movesets are dialed down. Imagine if Punk could do in the WWE what he did while he was in ROH.

It will not take years for ROH to find the next Danielson or McGuinness as it did for the WWE to find the next Austin or Rock to be the top guy of the company. ROH will get behind anybody that has personality and entertain the crowd each and every time they step into the ring. Another added bonus is that TNA wrestlers like the Motor City Machine Guns and Homicide wrestle in ROH occasionally so name recognition is always there.

 

[a0161613]

For ROH to grow, they need to grow and keep their own stars. Growing them has not been a problem. LJL points out the four most obvious examples in Punk, McGuiness, Danielson and Joe.

These four all had the tools; there is no doubt there. But they all developed and improved once they out of ROH. They were having better matches with better talent and getting more exposure in the process.

But keeping this talent has been a major struggle for them. Why? Because WWE are the dominant company and this will never change. ROH struggle to keep their talent exclusive to them. They cannot ensure their biggest stars are on their biggest shows because they are also contracted elsewhere.

Getting a TV deal and a pay-per-view set up has not stopped their top guys bolting for the big leagues. What do ROH have to do to keep their talent? The real question is, what can they do? The answer is not a lot because WWE and TNA will always go after incredible talent.

They are extremely fortunate to have an almost constant flow of talent. The best thing that ROH can do is adapt the ECW approach when it comes to their talent. Get as much value out of them as possible while they are contracted to you. And ensure that when they do leave, that it does as little harm to their business as possible.

So far ROH have been relatively successful. It may mean that they are able to keep going a lot longer than ECW ever were. But ultimately is it going to allow them to succeed on an international level? Are they ever going to take a substantial chunk of WWE’s audience. It’s unlikely.

WWE know how to market their talent. For every Punk or Danielson, there is a Cabana who is deemed not to be good enough for them. Cabana is a great talent and I don’t know why he didn’t survive in WWE. Simple fact is, that Samoa Joe and AJ Styles had trials with WWE and never got a shot. CM Punk had to spend a year in developmental because HHH didn’t think he could work. The ROH style is not conducive to the WWE style so while ROH talent will always leave for pastures new, they can always come back because sometimes it doesn’t work out.

The successes are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

For ROH to grow, they need to grow and keep their own stars. Growing them has not been a problem. LJL points out the four most obvious examples in Punk, McGuiness, Danielson and Joe.

There are more who made the transition from ROH to WWE or TNA and have not been successful sadly to say.

These four all had the tools; there is no doubt there. But they all developed and improved once they out of ROH. They were having better matches with better talent and getting more exposure in the process.

I find that to be subjective. The consensus I have gotten from fans of Samoa Joe and CM Punk is that their best work was in ROH. I've watched them in ROH and I liked most if not all of their matches and they haven't impressed me as much since then. I guess it's because they don't do half in the WWE what they did in ROH but that's just me.

But keeping this talent has been a major struggle for them. Why? Because WWE are the dominant company and this will never change. ROH struggle to keep their talent exclusive to them. They cannot ensure their biggest stars are on their biggest shows because they are also contracted elsewhere.


Getting a TV deal and a pay-per-view set up has not stopped their top guys bolting for the big leagues. What do ROH have to do to keep their talent? The real question is, what can they do? The answer is not a lot because WWE and TNA will always go after incredible talent.

I was going to reply to these two paragraphs separately but my point ties them both together. What you're saying is true but you have to look at the amount of time guys like Danielson and McGuinness stayed in ROH. They were there for multiple years. It's not like you have a wrestler debut in ROH and then get called up to the WWE or TNA in less than a year. They are there for a good while so they can build up a fan following and thus make ROH successful in the process but they don't get called up quickly.

They are extremely fortunate to have an almost constant flow of talent. The best thing that ROH can do is adapt the ECW approach when it comes to their talent. Get as much value out of them as possible while they are contracted to you. And ensure that when they do leave, that it does as little harm to their business as possible.

ECW never did get much out of their talent as they possibly could. RVD was TV Champion for two years and he was the best thing ECW had going yet they never made him world champion. While in the WWE, he was main eventing a pay-per-view three or four months in. ROH always ensures that their top stars are champion and when they leave to WWE or TNA, the next top guy gets the belt.

So far ROH have been relatively successful. It may mean that they are able to keep going a lot longer than ECW ever were. But ultimately is it going to allow them to succeed on an international level? Are they ever going to take a substantial chunk of WWE’s audience. It’s unlikely.

I don't believe ROH was never meant to take a substantial chunk of WWE's audience. To me, ROH is an alternative to the mostly entertainment based style of WWE and TNA. If you're a fan who wants to watch pure wrestling and be amazed by the flow of a match and how hard the competitors work, then ROH is for you. It's also seen as a place for the big promotions to look for top talent. As long as ROH keeps doing those two things, then they will be successful.

WWE know how to market their talent. For every Punk or Danielson, there is a Cabana who is deemed not to be good enough for them. Cabana is a great talent and I don’t know why he didn’t survive in WWE. Simple fact is, that Samoa Joe and AJ Styles had trials with WWE and never got a shot. CM Punk had to spend a year in developmental because HHH didn’t think he could work. The ROH style is not conducive to the WWE style so while ROH talent will always leave for pastures new, they can always come back because sometimes it doesn’t work out.

The successes are the exceptions, not the rule.

I've mentioned before that there are as many failures as there have been successes but that doesn't mean ROH is a failure. I understand that ROH is not conducive to the WWE style but that style will always pull in fans and it has and will continue to do so.

 

[a0161613]

There are more who made the transition from ROH to WWE or TNA and have not been successful sadly to say.

Name them?

I'll give you Cabana, Aries and Strong, even Castagnoli for luck. Don't mention guys like Haas & Benjamin because that's not what we are talking about here.

I find that to be subjective. The consensus I have gotten from fans of Samoa Joe and CM Punk is that their best work was in ROH. I've watched them in ROH and I liked most if not all of their matches and they haven't impressed me as much since then. I guess it's because they don't do half in the WWE what they did in ROH but that's just me.

A good match is subjective. The fact is as good as CM Punk was in ROH, working with ROH talent is nowhere near the same as working in WWE main events with DX, Undertaker, Edge, Jeff Hardy etc.

Being able to do more than WWE allow is not a reflection on talent, rather than an ability to do moves. WWE require their talent to do significantly more.

I was going to reply to these two paragraphs separately but my point ties them both together. What you're saying is true but you have to look at the amount of time guys like Danielson and McGuinness stayed in ROH. They were there for multiple years. It's not like you have a wrestler debut in ROH and then get called up to the WWE or TNA in less than a year. They are there for a good while so they can build up a fan following and thus make ROH successful in the process but they don't get called up quickly.

You can't have it both way. ROH fans make up a small part of the WWE's fanbase and as such, they cannot be the judge of how good they will be in WWE. McGuinness and Danielson in particular could have gone to WWE at any point in time because of how good they are.

And what happened? McGuinness entered a program with a super-worker in Kurt Angle who made him look like a star in the making. And Daniellson is associated with The Miz, who is WWE's fastest rising talent.

I wont go as far as to say that their time in ROH held them back BUT they had the all-around talent to make it regardless.

ECW never did get much out of their talent as they possibly could. RVD was TV Champion for two years and he was the best thing ECW had going yet they never made him world champion.

Have to address this point separately because I think a disservice is being done to the likes of Jericho, Benoit, Mysterio, Corino, even Funk.

While in the WWE, he was main eventing a pay-per-view three or four months in. ROH always ensures that their top stars are champion and when they leave to WWE or TNA, the next top guy gets the belt.

RVD didn't get the belt for years and only sporadically main evented while WWE rode the wave of his momentum.

The ROH tops guys are NEVER akways champion. That is simply false. Roderick Strong would not be champ if Davey Richards had been around.

I don't believe ROH was never meant to take a substantial chunk of WWE's audience. To me, ROH is an alternative to the mostly entertainment based style of WWE and TNA. If you're a fan who wants to watch pure wrestling and be amazed by the flow of a match and how hard the competitors work, then ROH is for you. It's also seen as a place for the big promotions to look for top talent. As long as ROH keeps doing those two things, then they will be successful.

I've mentioned before that there are as many failures as there have been successes but that doesn't mean ROH is a failure. I understand that ROH is not conducive to the WWE style but that style will always pull in fans and it has and will continue to do so.

I agree it is the alternative but the truth is that many see it as a stopping off point. An ECW-like brand where they can learn they craft and also know that it will probably be the first place TNA or WWE look when they hire talent.

Also success is also objective. As good as the talent are, ROH have a long way to go to even match the other two. Their production standards are as average as it was when I first got into it a few years ago.

They cannot rely on their work ethic and the fact that their talent regularly gets poached. That is not success, that is being a farm system.

And they are not pulling in a huge amount of fans. They are pulling in the same fans when when they do the same routes around the country.

 

[a0161613]

I'm not sure where the week or LJL has gone but I want to follow up on this. It may or may not be the final post I make.

ROH is great but no wrestler thinks "I want to be in ROH for the rest of my career." They simply don't have the infrastructure to compete with the other two companies or even Japan. Sure, they are the wrestling alternative to the sport-entertainment dominated product but since the normal wrestling is used to that product, how many people would choose ROH over WWE, TNA or any other company?


The answer is a tiny percentage.

This is the reason the company has barely grown in eight years. There has been no change or progression. They got a TV & PPV deal but it was something which HAD to happen.

They are still so ingrained in their wrestling philosophies that they may never reach the level of the other two. The structure is not in place to grow. They can have the best wrestlers in the world but how has this helped the company? How has creating two of WWE's hottest talents helped ROH? It hasn't.

They are very fortunate that their production line of talent always seem to find a gem.

It's a damn shame because I would love to see a product like ROH succeed alongside WWE & TNA but they will never do so because of their refusal to adapt. A modern wrestling company has to tour big arenas and attract hundreds of fans , have a TV deal on a major channel and put out a TV product which can draw a big chunk of PPV buys.

ROH have not achieved that basic standard so why should their talent not immediately head on to a company who has. And that is just one reason why the company will not be successful. They cannot keep their talent when bigger companies come calling.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity of debate: Draw
Both arguments could have used some tidying up. However, there were some merits to both participants' arguments, which I'll get into in just a bit.

Punctuality: Numbers
LJL was late at one point, and he didn't come back to finish up the debate.

Informative: Numbers
He presented a nice amount of relevant information, so he gets the point.

Persuasion: LJL (0.5), Numbers (1.5)
LJL did an excellent job on his rebuttal, but it looks like he just vanished after this. So, I give him half a point for that rebuttal, but Numbers gets the rest.

Final Score
Numbers: 4
LJL: 1

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Draw
Good understanding of the Debate from both guys here.

Punctuality: Numbers
Slight lateness from LJL and no conclusion to give Numbers the point here.

Informative: Numbers
Information was better used by him here where LJL would throw out examples and Numbers would correct or expand upon them.

Persuasion: Numbers
Much like my information point, Numbers was good at countering a good counter from LJL and he kept some momentum going, had LJL given another reply, it would have been a different story here.

Final Score
Little Jerry Lawler: 0.5
Numbers: 4.5

 

[BooCocky]

LJL had no conclusion therefore he should automatically lose the debate. LJL was a little late, Numbers used more information, had a more precise and clear argument and he was a little more persuasive. Numbers got me to agree with his side of the argument because he used some solid info.

Final
Numbers-5
LJL-0

 

[Miko]

Clarity: LJL never closed while Numbers did

Point - Numbers

Punctuality: Apparently LJL was late so Numbers gets the point, also he ran out on us.

Point - Numbers

Informative: Numbers had the more information, and even had the cheek to demand more information from LJL at one point which LJL never provided, I liked that.

Point - Numbers

Persuasion: The question was whether ROH will continue to be successfull, Numbers made me believe that ROH will never go mainstream, LJL convinced me that it will continue the way it is. I was tempted to drop him a point for not finishing but I've already punished him in the other 3 categorys

Point - LJL

My Scores;

Numbers - 3
LJL - 2

 

[Phoenix]

After a complete judge's tally, Numbers is the victor with 16.5 points to Little Jerry Lawler's 3.5.

Congratulations and great debating by the both of you!