Round 3: Little Jerry Lawler -vs- Papa Grande

[D-Man]

Should Tyler Black immediately jump up to the WWE Roster to carry the current momentum he has from being ROH Champion or would he benefit more from being in FCW?

This is a third round match in the Debater's League. Little Jerry Lawler is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck.​

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I will debate that Tyler Black should not immediately jump to the WWE and Papa can go first.

Good luck.

 

[Megatron]

I'd just like to say good luck to LJL and sorry about the slight delay.
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For Tyler Black, it would be in his best option to immediately jump up to the WWE for two reasons:

NXT The second season will be finished within the next 2 months or so and, let's face it, the WWE do not have many guys that are ready for the big time anymore after giving us 16 different guys in only 6-7 months. He could quickly build himself on NXT like Wade Barrett, Daniel Bryan, and Alex Riley did/are doing and get the crowd behind him there before moving over to RAW or SD. He would have a few months to get over with his microphone and ring work, assuming he made it far. NXT has been a good source for building up guys and giving them a following, and there's no doubt in my mind that Black would be in the same mould as those guys.

He'd Finally Have 'Made It' Let's face it, when guys sign with the WWE, obviously they are looking for a chance to be on the biggest stage in the wrestling world. If they didn't, guys like CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, and Kaval wouldn't have signed. If the WWE offers him a spot on the main event roster and he can skip FCW, you think he would say: 'Nah, I just wanted to be on FCW, I'll pass'? Fuck no he wouldn't. Jumping up to the WWE right away would put his name out to the people and he could quickly get the buildup and fan support that CM Punk got when he first debuted in the WWE. If guys like Drew McIntyre, who doesn't normally get a great reaction but has been pushed, can be on Smackdown, then Tyler Black surely can.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Tyler Black best be wise to go to FCW before going to the big leagues. I only have one reason and it covers everything.

It is best to find out what you have sooner rather than later.

I've watched some Tyler Black matches the past few days and I admit that he is a good wrestler and I like his style. Most of your indy wrestlers have a style that appeals to the fan who is disinterested in what WWE and TNA do on a regular basis. Black is trying to succeed in the big leagues now which is a whole different ballgame. No matter how much success you have in ROH or TNA, the WWE can eat you up and spit you up if you don't have what it takes to make it.

Even some of the most accomplished independent wrestlers in the world failed to impress in the WWE. Colt Cabana is a example that comes easily to me. He worked in OVW and FCW before wrestling for the E but failed to have success. Obviously they must have seen something in his work in developmental but he just couldn't make it work when the stage was bigger and the lights were brighter. He may have had a bad gimmick but the best can make a bad gimmick shine.

When you go to the E, your moveset will contract as seen by wrestlers like Punk and Bourne to an extent. Tyler Black will benefit going to FCW because there he can learn how to work a WWE match and they can tinker with his moveset to see what will and won't work. Black has some decent promo skills but I feel they could improve and no what better place to start than FCW. You wouldn't want a guy with average ability on the mic to be thrown to the wolves so to speak and ask him to survive on his own. If you get good heat from the FCW faithful, improve on that when you go to the E. Even though I don't like Punk's in-ring work, I always loved his mic skills and that's something that he will always have.

Black could be successful by going straight to the WWE, but that's a slim chance. Look at the top stars in the E. Cena, Orton, Punk, and Sheamus all were in developmental before graduating and look how they turned out. Black can be another on that list and should be if he goes to FCW.

 

[Megatron]

I've watched some Tyler Black matches the past few days and I admit that he is a good wrestler and I like his style. Most of your indy wrestlers have a style that appeals to the fan who is disinterested in what WWE and TNA do on a regular basis. Black is trying to succeed in the big leagues now which is a whole different ballgame. No matter how much success you have in ROH or TNA, the WWE can eat you up and spit you up if you don't have what it takes to make it.

While that's true, clearly the WWE wouldn't be wasting their time with Black if they didn't think that he had it.

Even some of the most accomplished independent wrestlers in the world failed to impress in the WWE. Colt Cabana is a example that comes easily to me. He worked in OVW and FCW before wrestling for the E but failed to have success. Obviously they must have seen something in his work in developmental but he just couldn't make it work when the stage was bigger and the lights were brighter. He may have had a bad gimmick but the best can make a bad gimmick shine.

Colt wasn't nearly as accomplished as Black is. Cabana really was more suited as a tag-team wrestler, as shown by the amount of tag-reigns he's had in some of the bigger Indy Promotions (ROH, OVW). Black, however, is more suited for a good run and starting on NXT wouldn't be a problem at all.

When you go to the E, your moveset will contract as seen by wrestlers like Punk and Bourne to an extent. Tyler Black will benefit going to FCW because there he can learn how to work a WWE match and they can tinker with his moveset to see what will and won't work.

While they held back a tad, no doubt, if you can perform your moves crisp and with high accuracy (Bourne's SSP) then they'll let you use it, for the most part.

Black has some decent promo skills but I feel they could improve and no what better place to start than FCW. You wouldn't want a guy with average ability on the mic to be thrown to the wolves so to speak and ask him to survive on his own.

You could easily put him on NXT and he could get chances to cut promos there, since they do challenges and interviews and such throughout the show. And he could make a big splash and get over with the crowd in the same way that Danielson did in season 1.

Black could be successful by going straight to the WWE, but that's a slim chance. Look at the top stars in the E. Cena, Orton, Punk, and Sheamus all were in developmental before graduating and look how they turned out. Black can be another on that list and should be if he goes to FCW.

But Cena and Orton we're really green and needed the time in developmental. Punk didn't have that tool of NXT otherwise he more then likely would've jumped up rather quickly.

And there are a ton of guys that have spent little, if any, time in developmental and are quite over. Danielson is one of those examples. He spent less then a month in there because of 'ring rust', something that I doubt Black would have. Edge hasn't used developmental and he's a 9 time world champion. Triple H never was in developmental in either WCW or WWE. Rey Mysterio, a 2 time World Champion, also never was in developmental, and I think he turned out well. Developmental is more for guys who are green in the ring and need to improve their skill, which Black doesn't need to do.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

While that's true, clearly the WWE wouldn't be wasting their time with Black if they didn't think that he had it.

Why would it hinder him to go to FCW if they think he has it? If he's not successful in FCW, then he won't be in the WWE. Better to find out then as opposed him going to straight to WWE and failing. Braden Walker.

Colt wasn't nearly as accomplished as Black is. Cabana really was more suited as a tag-team wrestler, as shown by the amount of tag-reigns he's had in some of the bigger Indy Promotions (ROH, OVW). Black, however, is more suited for a good run and starting on NXT wouldn't be a problem at all.

Cabana is a guilty little pleasure of mine. I would have loved to see him start off in OVW if it was still around at the time or FCW first and then maybe debut in the WWE as a tag team wrestler and later as a singles competitor. I don't think Cabana would have been anything like D-Von or Bubba where he couldn't cut it going solo.

While they held back a tad, no doubt, if you can perform your moves crisp and with high accuracy (Bourne's SSP) then they'll let you use it, for the most part.

Notice how he is the only one. Morrison is a possible second but Starship Pain will be a thing of the past. Mark my words. Black isn't going to be anything like Bourne is. Tyler is about the same height and weight as Punk and we don't see Punk use high flying moves a lot and he has been successful even though I don't like him.

You could easily put him on NXT and he could get chances to cut promos there, since they do challenges and interviews and such throughout the show. And he could make a big splash and get over with the crowd in the same way that Danielson did in season 1.

He could cut promos in FCW and then go to NXT if need be. If he sucks on the mic when he is in FCW, what's going to be any different if he's on NXT? Baby steps.

But Cena and Orton we're really green and needed the time in developmental. Punk didn't have that tool of NXT otherwise he more then likely would've jumped up rather quickly.

Punk didn't find his niche until three years into his WWE career. Cena and Orton did it in a much faster period of time. If Cena couldn't freestyle, he maybe wouldn't be here today.

And there are a ton of guys that have spent little, if any, time in developmental and are quite over. Danielson is one of those examples. He spent less then a month in there because of 'ring rust', something that I doubt Black would have. Edge hasn't used developmental and he's a 9 time world champion. Triple H never was in developmental in either WCW or WWE. Rey Mysterio, a 2 time World Champion, also never was in developmental, and I think he turned out well. Developmental is more for guys who are green in the ring and need to improve their skill, which Black doesn't need to do.

Edge was the only one to find success right away due to him being in a tag team with Christian.

I want Black to succeed just as much as you and I want for him to go to FCW and learn how to work a match like the WWE wants and see if he can cut a good promo before going to the big leagues. He is not Braden Walker.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Closing

While there have been many wrestlers who have been successful without going through developmental, the list of those who failed are much longer. Tyler Black will be a success with the WWE but it would be much beneficial for him to go to FCW first. He can improve his mic skills there and work a match that the WWE wants instead of just immediately going to the E only to crash and burn. It's good that he wants to go to the big leagues but it's not automatically a quick process. If he dedicates the time and energy to be successful in FCW, he will reap the benefits that come with being the best in the best company. It takes time.

 

[Megatron]

Why would it hinder him to go to FCW if they think he has it? If he's not successful in FCW, then he won't be in the WWE. Better to find out then as opposed him going to straight to WWE and failing. Braden Walker.

Like I said earlier, the WWE is running low on talent to put in their NXT season 3, and Black certainly is a worthy candidate of being on the show.

He could cut promos in FCW and then go to NXT if need be. If he sucks on the mic when he is in FCW, what's going to be any different if he's on NXT? Baby steps.

You yourself said he was average on the microphone, and if they gave him a gimmick like Chris Benoit had, which was a guy who would show it with his actions rather then his words, he would be widely successful. If you have a great wrestling ability you can pass with only being average or possibly being below average on the microphone.

Punk didn't find his niche until three years into his WWE career. Cena and Orton did it in a much faster period of time. If Cena couldn't freestyle, he maybe wouldn't be here today.

Punk may not have been his best until last year when he turned heel, but that's not his fault, it was the booking. And I'm pretty sure he became ECW Champion in 2007 and World Heavyweight Champion in 2008, so it's not like he was treading water and doing nothing in the WWE from 06-09.

Edge was the only one to find success right away due to him being in a tag team with Christian.

Triple H made his WWE debut in early 95, didn't get a real program til the next year, and won the IC title a few months after that. Not a great deal of time. And Mysterio won the CW title in his WCW debut and was the 2nd ever WWE Tag-Team Champion, just debuting in June of that year. I think that's some early success.

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Closing: As I've said before, it wouldn't hurt the WWE or Black one bit to put Tyler in this next season of NXT. Their talent is running thin in FCW and the crowd could get behind him like they did with Danielson and Kaval in the seasons previous. You don't always need to be a great mic worker to get to the top of the totem pole. Chris Benoit, Jack Swagger, Rey Mysterio, and Batista are clear examples of this. Black will impress fans with his in-ring work and can pass with average mic ability. If they have NXT, why not put guys who are deserving to be on the show on it? Black is clearly deserving and should be on the next season of NXT.

 

[Phoenix]

Clarity of debate: Papa Grande
Good neat opening and ending, was good with his responses to LJL with some bulk responses than one liners.

Punctuality: Papa Grande
LJL took nearly two days with a response, so this point goes to Papa Grande.

Informative: Draw
Neither men provided much info.

Persuasion: Papa Grande
Papa's responses and posts felt more convincing to me, I think LJL's early closing did weaken his debate for me where Papa managed to respond to it and round it up nicely.

Final Score
Little Jerry Lawler: 0.5
Papa Grande: 4.5

 

[CH David]

Clarity: I liked both openers. LJL kept his point simple, and Papa Grande had two good points that were concise.

Point: Split

Punctuality: What Phoenix said.

Point: Papa Grande

Informative: Again, look at what Phoenix said.

Point: Split

Persuasion: This was tough. LJL brought up some good counter-points, but Papa kept answering. As Phoenix said, LJL's early close hurt him a little bit, as it could definitely have helped to have one more argument then a close.

Points: Papa Grande

CH David scores this Papa Grande 4, Little Jerry Lawler 1

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity of debate: Papa Grande
Phoenix said what I already wanted to say.

Punctuality: Papa Grande
Little Jerry Lawler took too much time to respond.

Informative: Papa Grande
Papa Grande probably doesn't know that much about Tyler Black, but at least he did a little bit of research.

Persuasion: Little Jerry Lawler
LJL raised the best point of the debate (when joining WWE, indy wrestlers' move-set DO contract), and this was something that I feel Papa Grande didn't overcome (he did mention Bourne's use of the Shooting Star Press, but that's it). Thus, I'm giving the points to LJL here.

Final Score
Little Jerry Lawler: 2
Papa Grande: 3

 

[D-Man]

LJL just seemed to get overpowered in most of the points in his debate. Papa Grande provided more information and gave a much more accurate debate.

Clarity: Papa Grande
Punctuality: Papa Grande
Informative: Papa Grande
Persuasion: Split

Final Score
Papa Grande: 4.5
Little Jerry Lawler: 0.5

 

[D-Man]

After a complete judge's tally, Papa Grande is the victor with 16 points to LJL's 4.

Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!