Round 6: DirtyJose -vs- Dave

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Sep 5, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Was Mike Awesome in the right to keep the ECW Championship when he jumped ship to WCW?

    This is a sixth round match in the Debater's League. DirtyJose is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    I can't lie; I've been waiting for this for weeks.

    I will argue that Mike Awesome was indeed in the wrong bringing the ECW Title to WCW, and I will argue first, once I finish my morning cup of coffee.

    Let's dance, Dave.
     
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  3. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Was Mike Awesome in the right to keep the ECW Championship when he jumped ship to WCW?

    Let's get one thing out of the way: Mike Awesome was totally justified in taking WCW's offer. He was owed a large amount of money from Heyman (not an uncommon occurrence at the time), and at the end of the day he had his family's welfare to look after. I don't want to come off as saying Awesome shouldn't have gone to WCW, because while it was a disaster and did no real favors for his image and career, it did keep him paid.

    However, let us take a look at some of the consequences suffered as a result of Awesome bringing the title of ECW Champion with him to Nitro in April 2000:

    Victim #1: Mike Awesome

    A move from ECW to either WCW or WWF should have been good business for Awesome. I won't kid that I thought he was anything spectacular, but he was one of the last big names ECW had left and that should have been worth something more than "Fat chick thrilla". The truth of the matter is that WCW was never interested in Awesome as a performer; they were only interested in Awesome, the ECW Champion. WCW only wanted another big surprise which they hoped would magically change their fortunes (because, you know, all their other tricks had worked so well before). Once the controversy blew over, all Awesome was left with was a fan base that was bitter with his decision and an employer which no longer saw him as valuable.

    Victim #2: ECW

    By April 2000, ECW was already in dire straights. The television deal with TNN was bleeding them dry, and most of the marketable stars which had popularized the ECW brand had already left. Awesome was one of the last few stars ECW was able to create. Losing a guy they spent the better part of early 2000 building up was hard enough without having the ECW Title complicate the matter. Though Heyman in the end was able to secure a six figure sum from WCW as part of the resolution, the damage was already done, and neither the money from WCW nor the historic "WCW vs WWF in an ECW ring" match from Indianapolis was of any help to ECW. Part of Heyman's plan to attempt to turn a profit from all of this was to book Awesome (a WCW employee) to lose the belt to Tazz (a WWF employee), and then have Tazz (now ECW Champion) face HHH (then WWF Champion) before losing the belt to Tommy Dreamer. Of course, Awesome's loss to Tazz was a spectacularly boring match, and a very quick one (at 1:13). HHH going over Tazz on an episode of Smackdown sealed the deal on the total devaluation of the ECW title by the time it was passed to Dreamer. The whole affair was just another nail in the coffin for ECW.

    Victim #3: WCW

    ECW tried to fight WCW from taking Awesome, claiming that his verbal agreement with WCW was invalidated by his signed contract with ECW. Heyman realized, however, that losing Awesome was inevitable since his contract was due to expire, and Awesome wasn't going to sign another one until Heyman could pay the money that Awesome was owed. He reached an agreement with WCW that would allow Awesome to go, provided he get clearance to wrestle one last show and that said show could be promoted on his debut on WCW. Naturally, WCW did not follow through with these terms, and Heyman was able to extract a six figure sum from WCW to help settle the matter without going to court. What did WCW get out of all of this? Nada. Zilch. Nothing. If one thing is clear during these days at WCW it's that they had no idea how to stop the bleeding, but were convinced the solution had something to do with throwing money at it. Lots of money. For no real reason. Where does Mike Awesome fit in the whole scheme of things regarding the end of WCW? Was Awesome a part of why WCW went under? As part of the trend WCW had developed of bending over backwards to pick up talent which would just end up criminally under utilized and forgotten, yes, the ordeal with Awesome and the ECW Title is evidence of the mismanagement which sunk WCW.

    And the winner is...

    Only one group got anything positive out of the whole experience: The WWF. At the peak of the Monday Night Wars, Vince was practically handed the ECW Championship by Heyman to do with as he pleased for the ten days Tazz held it. Naturally, he fed the ECW Champion to his own, HHH, in a long match that made one thing clear to viewers: WWF was #1. While this moment isn't what ended the wars, it was many many moments like this which saw WWF claim victory by 2001. With the only group to benefit from the incident being the one group not involved in it, I think it's safe to say that Mike Awesome shouldn't have debuted in WCW as ECW Champion.
     
  4. Dave

    Dave Administrator
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Sorry for the delay, Jose. I have been really looking forward to this debate for a couple of weeks and I hope that the reason I have given you is enough to explain my lack of punctuality. Good luck and let’s have a great debate.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------​


    Mike Awesome was the ECW Champion. He moved to WCW, whilst still in possession of the ECW Heavyweight Championship… Hilarity ensued!

    That is a very brief summary of what actually happened between Mike Awesome, ECW and WCW. However, the whole situation is the subject of many debates. Not least this one. Over the history of Pro-Wrestling, we have seen many people change promotion as a Champion. We have also seen the length that some promotions have gone to ensure that their Champion does not leave with that title attached to their name (Read: Montreal Screwjob). In this debate, I will be telling you why Mike Awesome was well within his rights to leave ECW as the ECW Champion.

    My esteemed opponent has taken it upon himself to tell you why people were victims. However, I would very much like to turn this idea on it’s head and tell you why all parties involved were actually winners.

    Winner 1 – ECW


    [​IMG]

    Let us make no mistake, at the time of the Mike Awesome invasion to WCW, ECW was the third pro-wrestling promotion in the United States. It came behind World Championship Wrestling and the World Wrestling Federation. Now, this may seem like a digression but it is actually a very pertinent point in my debate.

    WCW was a hell of a lot bigger than Extreme Championship Wrestling. They had more recognisable talent and a better overall product. They had way more fans and a greater amount of weekly viewers. Ask any small business owner and they will tell you that the best thing for small businesses that want to get on and make some waves is an advertisement. If we reduce this to the most basic of factors, Mike Awesome was a huge advertisement for ECW. People were talking about ECW then and we are still talking about the incident now.

    I, for one, would be very surprised if Paul Heyman was not rubbing his hands together as he got into a tussle with WCW over Mike Awesome. ECW came out of the matter with more people talking about them than ever before.

    Winner 2 – WCW​


    [​IMG]

    Make no mistake; Eric Bischoff was probably doing the same thing!

    Not only had WCW managed to bring one of the biggest names in ECW to WCW, he had managed to do it with the ECW Heavyweight Championship around his waist. WCW had been known to have done this one more than one occasion and the trend suggests that WCW didn’t exactly care about the way these situations were handled. The incident involving Alundra Blayze is evidence enough of this as the then WWF Women’s Champion defected to WCW and dumped the Championship into a trash can.

    At the end of the day, what WCW were always trying to do at this stage, was to try and get people watching and talking about their shows. Defections were all the rage and people were jumping ship frequently. They were big talking points in the wrestling business and still are to this day. WCW brining in a Heavyweight Champion from another promotion is a talking point, no way around it. WCW had achieved their goal and Mike Awesome was a part of that.

    Winner 3 – Mike Awesome


    [​IMG]

    Yes! Even Mike Awesome was a winner out of this whole conundrum.

    Not only was he out of a company that owed him a lot of money, he left with a middle finger to Paul Heyman. He took the Championship that was the top prize in ECW and took it to another promotion. For the rest of Mike Awesome’s career, he would forever have that attached to his name. He would forever be the man who gave a lasting middle finger to ECW and Paul Heyman. He would forever go into the same category as people like Lex Luger, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart and (more recently) Ric Flair to join another company as one of the original companies top stars.

    More importantly, it gave Mike Awesome some exposure as a both a Champion of ECW and a competitor in WCW. It gave him an easy springboard into competition in World Championship Wrestling and was competing with the likes of Hulk Hogan and Kevin Nash in his breakout feuds. Not many people can say that they had that effect but Mike Awesome is one of the few.
     
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  5. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    No worries. Real life takes precedence over pleasures like these.

    It's no doubt that either man (and don't forget Russo!) was excited to somehow spin this to their advantage. However, Heyman still held the legal high ground, and could have taken any number of precautions to ensure that the ECW Title didn't appear on WCW television, even in name alone. He chose to make it a business deal with WCW; Paul was always keen on getting promotion on someone else's dime. The provisions of this deal included that WCW announcers would hype the upcoming April 13th ECW show from Indianapolis, where Awesome was already booked to lose the title.


    No mention of the April 13th show. No extended promo as was agreed upon with Heyman. WCW merely took Awesome and threw him out at Nash, and just as quickly shifted to Hogan. WCW had no interest in fulfilling their end of the deal, and Awesome's willingness to go along with it voided the deal brokered with Heyman and allowed ECW to take legal action against WCW. Was that within Awesome's or WCW's right? Clearly not, as a price was eventually paid to ECW to prevent matters from ending up in bigger courts.

    In one of the few miracles of latter day WCW, somebody higher up seemingly learned their lesson from the Alundra Blayze fiasco. WCW refrained from having Awesome carry the belt on his Nitro debut. It was one of the few terms of the initial agreement with Heyman that they did fulfill even as they willingly broke the others. Had they allowed Awesome on TV with the physical title, Heyman and ECW would have had even more ammunition against WCW and Awesome in court.

    But what did it get them compared to the trouble it caused them? Through their actions, which broke the terms of the deal that allowed them to rightfully mention the ECW title, allowed Heyman to take legal action to void his prior obligations to Awesome and extract a large sum of money from WCW. WCW got an unproven talent who flopped quite hard and never matched the main event level status that he had achieved in ECW.

    Awesome would not have been able to leave with the title of champion without Heyman's blessing as part of an arrangement; an arrangement Awesome and WCW broke and paid the price for. I can't argue that these events didn't place Awesome into the discussion of such high profile defections, but Awesome is far and away the least important of the list of men you have given. With the exception of Bret Hart, each of those men went on to do good business after their moves.

    Awesome got steady employment for another year or two, but was never made to be a true main event star. After some initial work with Hogan (which isn't too surprising when you realize that Hogan's nephew Michael (Horace Hogan) is a cousin of Awesome's) and a go-nowhere feud with Nash, Awesome went on to work with mid card guys like Kanyon, Lance Storm, and Vampiro for the remainder of his WCW career. WCW even saw fit to reboot his gimmick twice in the span of one year. No big feature or hype was made of him being the ECW Champion past his initial Nitro debut because they had screwed the pooch on the deal with Heyman. He could have debuted and started feuding with the injured Nash and doing run ins for Kidman without the need for the title of ECW Champion; again, WCW was clearly more interested in the shock value of having Awesome debut than they were in utilizing any talents Awesome had. He shows up, lays out Nash, and BOOM! We're back to Hogan and Bischoff/Kidman to close the show.

    There's no doubt Paul Heyman and ECW needed all the promotion they could get, as TNN acted as if they didn't exist. What Heyman didn't need however was to lose a top star. On top of that, he was forced to damage the image of the ECW Championship by having Awesome practically lay down and lose the title in a matter of minutes. In fact, in an attempt to get any kind of promotion out of the situation, he used Tazz, a WWF performer, to try and max out the exposure and excitement level of the event.


    You can hear in Styles' voice that he's trying to make this sound important. He's trying to make it sound exciting. It's too bad that Awesome barely showed up. No sell, no sell, no sell, Dreamer run-in, submission. All that attention, all that free promotion (which WCW never gave anyway), all so viewers could tune in to watch men from two other promotions put on a mockery of a title match. As WCW also found out during this era, damage like that to your flagship title can be difficult to recover from. On top of this, during the 10 days in which WWF found itself in possession of the ECW Championship, ECW found itself even more free promotion; millions of viewers tuned in to watch Tazz come up short to the WWF Champion. The title Dreamer won off of Tazz later was irreparably damaged goods.

    At the end of the day, the decision to bring the title of ECW Champion to WCW was wrong: wrong because their (Mike Awesome and WCW) actions broke the agreement with Heyman, and wrong because it benefitted no one but McMahon in the end.
     
  6. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Good opening post by Dave. I'll give him the clarity point since Dirty Jose beat him by miles in everything else.

    Final Score
    Dirty Jose - 4
    Dave - 1
     
  7. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Split point on this one, both opening posts were good and all the posts were very clear

    Point - Split

    Punctuality: Dave was late and then no showed as they call it in wrestling circles

    Point - DirtyJose

    Informative: Jose again, Dave only made one post and Jose went all out on his

    Point - DirtyJose

    Persuasion: Jose again easily, much more persuasive argument, backed up by a lack of a rebuttle from Dave, not to discredit Jose at all as his posts were very good.

    My Scores;

    DirtyJose - 4.5
    Dave - 0.5
     
  8. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Draw
    Great opening posts and understanding of the debate.

    Punctuality: DirtyJose
    Lack of a Dave after opening gives this to Jose.

    Informative: DirtyJose
    What Miko said, Jose went all out and Dave only had one post.

    Persuasion: DirtyJose
    While Jose did superb to continue in the debate with a great post, without Dave it made it a more or less default victory which is a shame as this looked to be a great one.

    Final Score
    DirtyJose: 4.5
    Dave: 0.5
     
  9. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Like tdigs said, Dave put out a GREAT opening post. But DirtyJose edged him in all other categories here.

    Final Score:
    DirtyJose: 4
    Dave: 1
     
  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, DirtyJose is the victor with 17 points to Dave's 3.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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