Round 7: Unsex -vs- DirtyJose

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by Phoenix, Sep 12, 2010.

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  1. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Which wrestler is the better asset to the Professional Wrestling World, Shawn Michaels or Randy Savage?

    This is a seventh round match in the Debater's League. Unsex is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    I'll take HBK and go second. Good luck Jose. Let's have a good clean debate no hair pulling, eye gougeing or shots below the belt.
     
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  3. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Randy "Macho Man" Savage is a better asset to the world of professional wrestling than Shawn Michaels.​


    Sorry for the delay Remix, let's rock!

    I like the phrasing of this week's topic: "better asset". This is not a comparison of each other's technical skills, nor one of their respective collection of titles. What this is a comparison of is their lasting legacy in the industry, on the screen and behind it. In this regard, I feel that Macho Man does indeed hold the advantage over Shawn Michaels. I base this evaluation on two criteria:

    1: Snap it to a Slim Jim

    "Macho Madness" has infiltrated pop culture far deeper than Shawn Michaels has. Randy Savage is simply a more widely recognizable figure than HBK, and has attracted more outside viewers to the product. While HBK was popular to most modern wrestling fans, even non-wrestling viewers can recognize Randy Savage as a result of his movie and television roles and his commercial work.

    2: The Golden Era of the WWF

    Randy Savage was one a few superstars of wrestling which defined the WWF brand during the 80's. He was one the first superstars to develop national recognition, especially during his work with Hulk Hogan. His work helped establish new PPV events like WrestleMania and SummerSlam. Shawn Michaels helped start off the "Attitude Era", but was injured and relegated to the sidelines for the most successful parts of it.

    "Macho Man" has done more for the industry.

    Shawn Michaels had a short run in the late 90's, and an impressive return run in the 00's, but the better part of his work is recognized only by those of us already fans of the product. Randy Savage at his peak was a more recognizable and marketable superstar the likes of which have rarely been matched in the modern industry. His prestige helped establish professional wrestling on a national scale as a success, and is a bigger asset to the industry than Shawn Michaels.
     
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  4. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    Thank you DirtyJosé for that excellent opener.

    Why Shawn Michaels is the better asset than Randy Savage

    Like DirtyJosé, I think that the statement we're supposed to be debating is very well worded, and allows for multiple interpretations. I did, however interpret it in a different way to my opponent. I interpreted asset to mean wrestler, and all of the facets that being a good pro-wrestler means. After all, the WWF/E is a wrestling company, and therefore a the best asset is a the best wrestler.

    Reason 1: HBK has Mad Skillz

    Of the many wrestlers that have worked in WWE throughout its history there have been few better than Shawn Michaels. From his humble beginings as the star of successful tag team "The Rockers" his skill has always been recognised. This is exemplified by the fact that he has won a record 10 PWI match of the year awards in addition to two of Dave Meltzer's rare five star matches. Now, while this achievement only reflects the opinions of a small proportion of the fans of how good he is, they are still impressive achievements.

    As for why Shawn Michaels is the better wrestler, the answer is because he is incredably diverse. Shawn Michaels can be put in long matches (like the Iron Man match vs Bret Hart) short matches (like the standard TV match), hold for hold technical masterpieces (like vs Angle at 'Mania 21) or high flying matches (like vs Jericho in a Ladder match) and produce an excellent match He can go with high fliers like Rey Mysterio or Brawlers like John Cena and still produce brilliant results. If the quality of a wrestler is measured by the volume of top notch matches, Shawn comes out tops, plain and simple.

    Reason 2: I think I'm cute, I know you're not down with that

    Another thing about Shawn Michaels is that he is every bit as versatile as a character as he is in the ring. From his debut in 1984 to his retirement as Wrestlemania 26 Shawn Michaels was able to keep his character fresh by constantly evolving as a performer as well as updating his image to fit with the time he is performing in. From his debut as a rocker, to a rebelious Degenerate entering the arena to rap music Shawn has been constantly changing, constantly evolving. Randy Savage... well, I'll let the footage speak for itself.

    Randy Savage in 1992

    [YOUTUBE]mT5b5-VQZxg[/YOUTUBE]

    Randy Savage in 2010

    [YOUTUBE]1mi2kH087E0[/YOUTUBE]

    As you can see, 18 years has made little difference in Randy Savage's personality. Shawn is a more diverse performer, and can thus be booked in a variety of different angles which require he character to be played in different ways. From being obsessed with the Undertaker to dicking around with BFF Triple H, Shawn Michaels can play a diverse set of characters, making him the better asset in this category

    Reason 3: I'm a professional wrestler

    Ideally the best pro-wrestler should act like, well a professionbal. I.e. he should be someone who puts the company above themselves, who isn't hated by people backstage and in general isn't a complete and utter cock. Let's be honest here, none of those things apply to the men in question. Shawn was a notorious polititian and Randy Savage's idea of professionalism seemed to constitute propositioning the Boss' underage daughter. Pedophilia is worse than politicing.

    And if we put aside Randy Savage asking Steph if she wanted some of his Macho Madness, Shawn Michaels spent the latter stages of his career making ammends for his former misdeeds. Look at him and Bret Hart kissing and making up on Raw. Going by what Natalya has said, that was a legit moment. Last I checked, Randy and Hogan still don't like one another. So yeah, despite backstabbing and asskissing his way to the top, Shawn Michaels is less of a legit dick than Savage.

    I think I've talked enough about why I think HBK > Savage in the asset department. I'll go about disproving your arguments for the opposite now.

    While I have admitedly interpreted the statement differently, I still disagree with you on yours.

    Now, this might be because I'm a British person from the '90s but as far as I'm aware, HBK is more ingrained in popular culture than Savage. Power Rangers, Pokemon and WWF, sure. But Savage? Not so much.

    That depends who you ask. If you ask people who were in the '80s they'll spot Savage in a flash. If you ask people who were young in the '90s they'll say HBK. Niether man was the biggest wrestler of their age. That was Hogan for Savage and The Rock and Austin for HBK. In my opinion, HBK is more intwined in pop culture than Savage, but I don't follow it in any detail.

    The same could be said of HBK and the Attitude Era.

    You said it there. Hulk Hogan was the star, Savage was just coming along for the ride. As soon as Hogan was free, Savage fell by the wayside. Without Hogan, Savage would forever have been an uppermidcarder at best.

    He helped by giving the real draws someone to fight. He was the equivaltnt of The ladder Shawn Michaels wrestled at Wrestlemania 10. There for the ride but not who the fans paid to see.

    And in the short time he was active in the AE, his actions were incredably important to it. Without the screwjob he was involved in (and even partially came up with) there would be no Mr McMahon, no Anti-Authority Stone Cold, in short, the Attitude Era would have died in the womb and the WWF would have died with it.

    Disagree completely here. Savage was the number 2 or 3 guy at any given moment. Even when he had the ball, it was never his to run with, he was just holding it for the big, important guys. Michaels was a top guy; maybe not for a long time, but he was a top guy none the less.

    He's also done more for the future of the buisness. The reason can be summed up in seven words. He made Bryan Danielson what he is. Without Shawn Michaels the American Dragon as we know him would not exist. Michaels trained him and got him his first tryout. After he was signed and sent to Memphis he met William Regal. Who not only taught Danielson one hell of a lot, but also got him his first European tour.

    In short, by virtue being the man who in no small part made one of the best pro wrestlers ever to have stepped into the squared circle, I think it's fair to say that HBK has done more for the buisness than the captain of the good ship Second Fiddle, Randy Savage (ahoy matey).

    DirtyJosé, I await your responce.
     
  5. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Without getting sidetracked into the separate debate of what exactly makes one a better wrestler, I feel this statement is only looking at this topic from one angle. For example, a guy like John Cena is hardly the "best" wrestler in the world by any measure of technical skill, but his value as an asset to the WWE is enormous regardless. Wrestlers can contribute to the industry outside of the ring. Being a good performer is no doubt of importance, but it isn't the sole measure of worth to the industry of professional wrestling.

    There's no doubt Shawn Michaels has picked up more accolades such as the PWI award and Dave Meltzer's five star rating. But these are all recognition from within the industry. This goes back to what I stated earlier, and that is that while Shawn Michaels is quite renown within the industry, beyond 2 years in the 90's his mainstream exposure is quite weak. Exposure and marketing are what drive this industry. And not many came close to the level of exposure that Randy Savage had in his 18 year career.

    Good thing we aren't talking simply about who the better wrestler is. What impact did his matches make? How did they benefit the industry? Shawn was good at putting on matches that dedicated wrestling fans loved, but did he ever become the icon to the industry that Savage became? At the same time, while Randy has been no stranger to controversy in his career, he's never fielded the accusations of sabotage and politicking that Shawn has. For all of Shawn's great ring work, he will always have the shadow of his selfish endeavors backstage which only served to hurt other performers. This hardly sounds like behavior becoming of one who is a great asset to the world of professional wrestling.

    Shawn's flexibility on the card is only an advantage when thinking of this only as what good either man is as a performer on this day. Certainly during his day Savage had great flexibility, from working heel against the likes of Ricky Steamboat and Dusty Rhodes to pairing up with Hogan as one of the biggest babyface teams of all wrestling history. These are some nice videos, but I fail to see how they demonstrate any lack of ability on Savage's part, nor do I see how they prove Shawn's superiority in any way.

    Savage's reason for departing the WWF have never been confirmed as having anything to do with Stephanie McMahon. Contrast this with reports of Shawn Michaels, reports he himself owns up to in his book, coordinating a "big boys club" which looked out for its own at the expense of many other performers. This isn't just about Bret Hart; it's about guys like Owen Hart, Dustin Rhodes, Shane Douglas, and others who Shawn decided selfishly didn't deserve a chance. See the difference here? Even if Savage had slept with Stephanie, it didn't affect his ability to contribute to the industry, while Shawn's selfish behavior of screwing over guys backstage for personal gain had a clearly detrimental effect on those guys' careers, and in the end only did harm to the industry of professional wrestling.

    Again, what is up for debate here is which man was the better asset to the world of professional wrestling, not which guy is the bigger asshole. Shawn did indeed come around and cross bridges many had long thought burnt, but that 1/4/10 episode of Raw wasn't record setting by any measure. The shock value of seeing Shawn and Bret hugging was overwhelming to watch, but it didn't make up for his years of sabotage behind the scenes.

    [YOUTUBE]SkkRj1aDNw4[/YOUTUBE]

    Originally, Ultimate Warrior was selected as the initial WWF/Slim Jim spokesman. However, like his ring work, his acting skills left much to be desired. The position then fell to Randy Savage, whose campaign with Slim Jim became iconic on American television. Savage carried the ad campaign for years. His success helped solidify a working relationship between WWF/E and Slim Jim that continues to this very day.

    [YOUTUBE]OQxyD0Q7GtU[/YOUTUBE]

    This is Macho on a popular late night show of 1989 being interview by Arsenio Hall, along with guest Morgan Fairchild. This was prime mainstream exposure of Macho Man at the top of his game. Note Randy's ability to remain in character throughout the segment, and yet the crowd is still very much into him. He does a much better job of making wrestling seem cool and important. Now for comparison...

    [YOUTUBE]rc8L6Ac6Q40[/YOUTUBE]

    This is Shawn, in one of the few public appearances of his career (outside of his church programming). This is sometime late into the second part of his career. Sure, Shawn can put on some good matches, but he doesn't do a very stellar job here of assisting the industry in any way. Any other performer could have delivered the same vanilla interview had it been their hometown. Besides being on a local area network, and not a national one, does this strike you as providing nearly as much mainstream exposure to the industry? Does this strike you as someone who is more ingrained into pop culture?

    Plenty of people went through the 90's unaware of who Shawn was. Even today, fans of wrestling who know Shawn through his recent work only had to have explained to them why Montreal '97 was important or why Bret and Shawn were hugging and making up. And Shawn followed more than just Austin and HBK. Shawn was on top of the wrestling world for 2 years at best. Randy's "Mega Powers" angle with Hogan, one of biggest storylines in wrestling to date, lasted longer than Shawn's initial main event run. Shawn saw the start of the Attitude Era, but retired before it reached the heights comparable to Randy's era. Undertaker, HHH, Rock, Austin, and even McMahon became bigger figures in the WWF by 1999, only one year after Shawn's departure. Macho left WWF for WCW in 1994, and within a few years was competing for the World Championship and became part of the biggest angle in wrestling history, the formation of the nWo. Macho was not forgotten by the 90's, and indeed still rivaled Shawn Michaels in terms of star power.

    Those are some pretty steep words to use against Randy. Especially since WWF made far more money during Randy's time at the top than they under Shawn. After the established stars like Savage and Hogan left, WWF proceeded into a downward spiral it wouldn't recover from fully until after Shawn had retired. And while you can list off all the PWI and Wrestling Observer awards you want to, downplaying Savage as merely a prop is foolish and shortsighted, especially in light of his reputation as an immaculate worker with a bit of perfectionist streak in him when it came to planning out great matches. I'll take Savage/Steamboat over Michaels/Angle or Michaels/HHH/Benoit any day. Neither of those matches stole the show from Hogan on his biggest night.

    Stone Cold was already a rising star by November '97. And while the actions of Montreal put into motion the events which helped WWF recover from the damage done the prior few years (under Michaels in the main event, mind you), they don't cast Michaels in a flattering light. Indeed, by many accounts, the screw job was HHH's idea, and Michaels' only role in the ordeal was that of a stubborn ass who simply would sink to whatever low to protect his place in the company pecking order and his pride. Keep in mind, these events took place before computers in most every household had internet access, so many fans never knew the story behind the scenes for a long while. As far as they were concerned, Montreal wasn't nearly as important as the characterization of McMahon coming out of it.

    Savage was number 2 during the WWF's biggest boom in decades; Shawn Michaels was number 1 during its deepest lows. And once again, having been champion longer is not what is critical for this discussion. Randy was present on two different promotions at two different times when both experienced a massive boost in business, and he was involved in groundbreaking and historic angles on each. Shawn oversaw WWF's lowest numbers in decades and contributed to an atmosphere backstage which divided the locker room for years.

    Really? I mean, don't get me wrong; I love me some Bryan Danielson. But once again, this is Shawn Michaels doing something only those in the know of professional wrestling would appreciate. I love the guy, but I'm not foolish enough to declare Bryan Danielson the absolute future of professional wrestling. Maybe 5 or 6 years from now we can have this discussion, and by then maybe Bryan will have accomplished enough to merit crediting Shawn with doing a lot for "the future of the business". Training one great wrestler hardly makes him a bigger asset than Randy, who has also taught wrestling in the past.

    Wait no longer, amigo. You're up.
     
  6. Remix

    Remix Is a thin rope

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    I'd like to appologuise to DirtyJosé for getting to this late. Yeserday was a crazy day for me, and I was thus unable to formulate a responce.

    Indeed, that was merely my interpretation of the statement. But before I move onto subsiquent sections Cena and HBK are great assets for different reasons. Cena because of his massive drawing capacity, HBK because of his tremendous ring ability.

    I disagree there. What drives the industry is the capacity of the few men to draw megabucks. HBK and Savage were never those guys. The best they could do is help the people who do draw in whatever way they can.

    In a wrestling company the best assets are the best people at what they do. People like Hogan, Cena and Austin draw like the Dickens; Shawn and Savage make guys look good. At the end of the day, HBK was better at that than Savage.

    As for how HBK's great matches benefitted the buisness, not only were they things of beauty to behold, they also enabled revolutions to take place. Without HBK vs 'Taker in the Cell there would be no "WITH GAWD AS MY WITNESS HE IS BROKEN IN HALF" when Foley crashed through the announce table. Shawn Michaels is the Marx to other people's Lennin. Without him to prime the gun, pulling the trigger would have been useless.

    Without Shawn, Foley would be a footnote in wrestling history, not a full colour picture. Without Shawn there would be no MitB. Shawn benefits the buisness by enabling other people to lead revolutions. He may never have intended it, but that is a big part of his legacy, and that lagacy has left permanent marks on the face of pro wrestling.

    You're right, Shawn puts on better matches and Savage isn't a famous politicker. He blames other people for not being a success though, such as spending a couple of decades blaming Hogan for everything from him not being a star and his failed marriage. Shawn was a dick backstage, but even so, I'd take him over Savage any day of the week. especially Wrestlemania Sundays.

    Shawn's character was evolving consistently from his Rocker days to his 'Taker obsession. Shawn was able to play a number of different characters very well, whereas Savage more or less played the same rambling, OTT character for 20+ years.

    they're evidence of Savage's static nature as a performer. even 20 odd years apart the promos are near damn identical. Whereas Shawn can play a diverse selection of characters, making him the better asset in that department.

    Shawn was an ass, I never denied that. But inspite of being an ass he never (alegedly) propositioned an underage girl and burned bridges so badly that he wasn't able to form a buisness relationship for a decade and a half.

    And which person was blackballed for 16 years by the McMahon family? Shawn may have been a douchebag who screwed guys left, right and centre but he was still thought of as someone worth the shit he did. Unlike Savage, who was blueballed by Steph and blackballed by Vince.

    No it didn't, but Shawn's second career (i.e. when he came back from retirement) where he wasn't a dick, was refusing the title and in general being a great guy to work with does go some way to making it up. not all the way, but some of it. At the end of the day, both men were assholes backstage, but Shawn's assholishness never cost him his job.

    Until this year, I thought that Slim Jim were a make of pajamas. Not really relavent to how well Randy performed in the adverts, but it is a testament of how tuned in to pop culture I am. Because of this, I'm going to conceed that Randy Savage is more of a pop culture icon than Shawn because it's a subject I don't have the knowledge about.

    That depends on when they started watching wrestling. The ones who started watching wrestling after Montreal would, understandably not know about it. Equally people have needed to be told why it's a big deal that Randy Savage is getting a new action figure.

    Very true, Shawn was never the top guy for long. Savage rose to the top by hanging out with Hogan and then he dropped down the card after their bromance and feud ended.

    They became bigger figures in the WWF than a guy who was retired? Not a huge shock on that front.

    i.e. he played second fiddle to Hogan again, just like he did when he was a 'star' in the 80's.

    Correction: They made more money in Hogan's time than they did under Shawn. Savage was only given the title when Hogan had other things to do, and when he was done with Hogan he dropped down the card like a stone, got pissed about it and left.

    Hulk Hogan is the best draw in wrestling history. Take him out and your revenue is going to drop. Savage's departure was beating the horse that died when Hogan left.

    Um, it's not exactly hard to put on a better match than Hogan. Hogan, massive ability to draw aside wasn't a great wrestler. Stealing shows was what Michaels did. He couldn't draw for shit, but he could wrestle a great match.

    We'll never know who's idea it was. Michaels was in the meeting, and no doubt pitched some ideas in. This was one instance that Michaels was completely in the right on though. Bret Hart was the one refusing to job, and it was either risk Bret showing up on Nitro and trashing the belt, or screw him. Bret's ego left them with no choice.

    That's why I mentioned it. Without the screwjob, Mr McMahon wouldn't exist. If McMahon never existed Stone Cold would have lacked an ultimate authority figure to feud against, and WWF could have lost to WCW.

    Angles that centred around the number one man who was the company's top draw. Savage was never anything more than someone to give Hogan a reason to be in the spotlight or keep Hogan's seat warm.

    Shawn's ability to draw is nonexistant, we'll never know about Savage's. Shawn, on the other hand sews seeds that grow into greatness. Without Shawn, there would be no HiaC, No Mr McMahon (Bret either wouldn't have been screwed or dropped the title cleanly), no DX, no Ladder matches or matches derived from it). Shawn never drew, but enabled other people to.

    He is a part of the future of WWE though. He's a valuable part of WWE's new guard that they're building. he will be a star, whether he'll be the biggest of the era is debatable, but he will have a successful career, one that he owes, in no small part to Shawn Michaels.

    Him getting ladder matches over with the crowd has also done alot for young stars. See MitB matches, TLC matches and HiaC matches.

    He has? Never knew that. Who has he trained?

    Once again, I apologuise for my tardiness but it was sadly unavoidable.
     
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  7. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity: Dirty Jose presented the best opening argument I've seen so far this season.

    Point: Jose

    Punctuality: Jose was late, Remix gets the point.

    Point: Remix

    Informative: Remix gets this point too, as he provided a wealth of information that he didn't just pile it on and expect us to connect the dots.

    Point: Remix

    Persuasion: Jose gets the points here. With his opening argument, he set up himself up for success by clearly defining "an asset to WWE," and he stuck with this definition all throughout the debate. Remix, you simply took on too big of a task; there are many ways to define what makes a professional wrestler an asset to their company, but your definition encompassed so many things that it made it virtually impossible for you to make a compelling case for Shawn Michaels. If I would have been in your shoes, I would have done either one of two things: either accepted Jose's definition and brought in hard evidence for why this definition better suited Michaels or created a much more simpler, opposing definition that emphasized just a few of Michaels's strengths as a professional wrestler.

    Points: Jose

    Final Score

    Dirty Jose: 3
    Remix: 2
     
  8. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Jose presented the clearer overall argument

    Point - DirtyJose

    Punctuality: Whats already been said

    Point - Remix

    Informative: I thought you matched each other all the way for information, well done

    Point - Split

    Persuasion: Snap it up to a slim jim, it was hard to argue with Jose's argument of Savage's crossover appeal as Remix found out the hard way

    Point - DirtyJose

    My Scores;

    Dirty Jose - 3.5
    Unsex - 1.5
     
  9. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: DirtyJose
    Beautiful opening and the stance taken on the question was more open minded than what Unsex said

    Punctuality: Unsex
    As pointed out, Jose was late slightly so it goes to Unsex.

    Informative: Draw
    I was swaying for Jose until Unsex's last post, both guys had errors called out such as the Stephanie rumour or who came up with the screwjob. Top job here.

    Persuasion: DirtyJose
    Jose's presentation and stance along with his rebuttals made a superb argument. Nothing to take away from Unsex, but Jose really brought his A-game here and had him covered. His flexible debating won me here, I felt Unsex had to repeat points at times just to make sure they were heard.

    Final Score
    Unsex: 1.5
    DirtyJose: 3.5
     
  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Clarity: Dirty Jose
    He drew the line in the sand about which way he wanted the topic to be interpreted very clearly.

    Punctuality: Unsex
    We all know why.

    Informative: Draw
    Both gave great information to back up their interpretations of the topic.

    Persuasion: DirtyJose
    Both men did a great job here but DirtyJose really made me proud. His game was spot-on. Every point he made was right on the money and won me over.

    Final Score:
    DirtyJose: 3.5
    Unsex: 1.5
     
  11. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, DirtyJose is the victor with 13.5 points to Unsex's 6.5.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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