Round 3: DirtyJose v Spoodbeest

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 15, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Cody Rhodes vs. Ted Dibiase, who will be the first to win a World Championship?

    This is a third round match in the Debater's League. DirtyJose is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    I will debating that Ted DiBiase Jr. will pick a up World Championship before Cody Rhodes ever does. I will also be going first (though not quite at this moment). Best of luck to you, SpoodBeest.
     
  3. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Ted DiBiase Jr. vs Cody Rhodes: Who, if any, gets a world title first?

    This was a hard one for me to chose, as I'm a mark for the entire Rhodes family. However, my own personal preferences are hardly the determining factor in who rises to the main event and when or how. In an evaluation of their skills sets and history at the present moment, I'm inclined to believe that Ted would pick up a world title before Cody does. Before I can highlight their differences, and what makes Ted more likely to get the gold, I want to highlight their similarities first.

    1. Legacy/Randy Orton
      Both had a lengthy run during most of 2009 as top heel stable with Randy. Their tag team title reign let them feud with established stars like HHH and HBK, and their run with Randy lets both come back to a main even angle with Randy in the future.​
    2. Family History
      Both come from a wrestling family, and as such both benefit from the perks of such. This includes having been around the industry in some form or another long enough to learn the ups and downs quicker than most. This is also something tangible for creative to use at almost any time. ​
    3. Experience
      Both signed with the WWE in 2006 and have progressed up the ladder at a similar pace.​

    Now I'd like to highlight the areas in which I feel Ted holds and advantage over Cody:

    1. Image
      By image, I mean how they appear to the fans. While neither is a large man by WWE standards, Ted is much closer to the size and look that McMahon likes in his champions. Cody has a bit of a baby face that keeps him looking younger than he is while Ted has a look that can pull off a top heel role without looking like a goof. Cody feels slightly more natural on the stick some of the time (which is natural, because he's a Rhodes!), but his voice and his looks hold him back from coming across as too threatening. Meanwhile, Ted is getting better and better at being the trust fund kid we love to hate, and that includes his work on the mic.​
    2. Gimmick
      Since the Legacy breakup, both have developed new aspects of their gimmick. Cody has gone with a narcissist gimmick while Ted has gone with one molded on his fathers, including the Million Dollar Belt. "Dashing" Cody Rhodes is a fine gimmick that I personally enjoy, but Ted's "Trust Fund Baby" feels like a more natural growth from where he was. "Dashing" Cody feels like a new gimmick placed over the old one, and while entertaining will take a little bit more time to develop into something with legs. Meanwhile, Ted inspires excellent loathing from the fans as a heel.​
    3. Legacy/Randy Orton
      Also related to the end of Legacy, Ted DiBiase Jr. came out of that angle looking far better and carrying more momentum than Cody Rhodes. Cody disappeared briefly, and had also been booked as the weakest element in the Orton/Rhodes/DiBiase feud. Ted turned heads bringing back the Million Dollar Belt, and is now a featured part of Raw's mid-card scene, while Cody was drafted to Smackdown to rehabilitate his image.​

    I don't mean to bring hard times down on Cody, but I simply feel that he's got a longer road in front of him to a world title than Ted does.
     
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  4. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    Ted DiBiase Jr. vs Cody Rhodes: Who, if any, gets a world title first?

    Now this one is quite the chore to think about but I will try my best to explain why Cody Rhodes will gain a world title before his Legacy counter part. So without further ado, it's time to debate.

    Now we all know that for a while Cody was in the tag team division, basically his whole career until now. Shortly after he debuted he began a tag team with Hardcore Holly and won the tag titles with him. Then he turned on Holly and joined with Ted Dibiase to become the new champs. Then the two of them together joined Randy Orton to become "The Legacy". They stayed this way until WrestleMania, as the draft would separate the two. My main point being we don't really know how each one can work on their own, but we have seen a taste of what each former Legacy member can dish out.

    Here are the following reasons Cody has a much better shot at winning world title gold than Ted does:

    1. Interesting Personality

    We all now that it is a huge thing in professional wrestling to have an interesting personality. This is so the fans can stay interested as well as stay invested in you as a performer. Cody has found the right gimmick to get over with as it fits him to a perfect T. His ladies man "Dashing" gimmick is superb and the crowd is really starting to connect with him as a character because of this. Wether it is during a promo he is cutting or even while the grooming tip of week is playing, the crowd is always into the "Dashing" one. Ted Dibiase on the other hand is not very interesting. While he may have the body of champions, I don't think he will be pushed past the level he is at anytime soon because of the fact that he is boring to listen to and seems to have trouble connecting to the audience without having to be Orton's right hand man. "Dashing" Cody Rhodes has not had this problem since being repackaged with the proper gimmick.

    2. Living Off Of Nostalgia

    This seems to be an issue for Ted as well. Since Legacy's break up after WrestleMania Ted basically started walking around with his dad's old Million Dollar belt. This was basically used as a cheap way to get him over. It's basically a bad rehash of the days that Ted Sr. used to walk around with that thing. It is a prop that is essentially keeping Dibiase relevant. Ted Sr. is always brought up basically every time Ted appears as well. Since Sr. apparently gave his son the trust fund. The use of Virgil was even used as an attempt to get Ted over and an attempt tp bring back the past for a nostalgic factor. Cody Rhodes since the new gimmick has relied on himself to carry his promos and bring a fresh new feel to his character. There is no bringing up Dusty every time he's on screen and their certainly isn't an attempt to make Cody the next "American Dream". No this a is a fresh new gimmick being tried out on the absolute perfect person for it, that being: Cody Rhodes. Due to this factor the fans will connect more with him and therefore he will get more over as time goes on and will climb his way up the ladder quicker than Dibiase.

    3. Legacy Is Irrelevant

    Neither Rhodes or Dibiase while they were in Legacy were used better than the other. Randy Orton was always the more important and dominate figure in that group. The only thing people will remember about Rhodes and Dibiase's part in that faction was they only were there to serve Randy, they were his lackeys, his goons, what ever you want to call them. No will remember anything else about what they did in that group minus that one DX feud they had that did not involve Orton. And in that feud they were basically portrayed as equals. Never once during Legacy did either Dibiase or Rhodes stand out amongst each other. Therefore their time to shine right now is what is important. And as it stands right now, Cody is getting way more over than the Trust Fund Kid.
     
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  5. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    Let's go, bub.

    I think it's been a fair enough length of time since their split from each other after Wrestlemania to make an assessment of their status as singles stars and compare the two. Ted was kept on Raw after the draft; a Raw, mind you, that became loaded with top tier talent and names and sent many undercard stars in need of development to Smackdown, including Cody. This shows where WWE ranks the two of them on the totem pole, an important point of why I think Ted would pick up a world title before Cody does.

    What's problematic about this is that the crowd is digging Cody in a comedy/smark way. He's supposed to be a heel, and he's supposed to come off as a threat. His NXT rookies comes off as more threatening than he does right now. I admit, it's a great rehash of a classic gimmick, and it suits him perfectly. I'm not saying that this gimmick won't get him anywhere, but that it will take longer to get him there because it's harder to establish a babyfaced pretty boy as an established heel. For a similar comparison, look at how long WWE has been trying to get Dolph Ziggler over as a similar conceded superstar.

    Ted is getting better and better at getting some good heat. I've a friend who hates seeing Ted enter the ring every Raw, and not because he hates seeing Ted as the performer, but because of all the guys to come and go as heels recently, Ted actually gets to him with his actions and words. And this friend is hardly the only one to get this reaction from Ted. Cody shows a greater range of emotion on the mic, but I wouldn't say that Ted is worse than he is. Ted is taken as a more serious threat than Cody is, and part of that is because he can talk the talk. He looks and acts the part in a manner which is much easier to tap into as a booker. Everybody hates a rich asshole; we're still waiting on a reason to fear or hate Cody.

    WWE's rich history is an asset to the company against any competition they face. Stars like Randy Orton have proven that utilizing that history can help get you over, so what's wrong with doing that in the case of Ted? His father is one of the most recognizable heels in the history of the industry, they'd be foolish not to tap into that. Furthermore, it's not like they could just give that belt and the storyline trust fund to anyone just because they were related to Ted Sr.; Ted Jr. has the looks and the skills to pull of Million Dollar Man 2.0. Finally, any title is a prop to keep someone relevant, so I don't understand what you mean by pointing that out.

    Cody isn't using a Rhodes Family gimmick only because none of them fit him and because none of them were really as easily "transferable" as a "Million Dollar Man" gimmick. They have tried implanting parts of Dusty Rhodes' gimmick onto Dustin, and they failed. This is for the best for Cody, but I don't see how this causes fans to love him more and cause his rise sooner. The fans are an important part of who rises up the ladder, but if we alone were the reasons guys got pushed to the top, Matt Hardy and Christian would already have had multiple world title reigns. What's also important is what the brass backstage thinks of you, and I think that WWE has shown more faith in Ted than Cody.

    I disagree with your assessment of their time in Legacy. Since Summer last year if not earlier you couldn't escape talk of how Legacy would break up. Each and every version put forth by fans were the same; Ted DiBiase would face Randy Orton at Wrestlemania. Cody was written to be, and came off on screen as, the weaker of the three. This continued through until early 2010, while since the end of the year WWE had painted Ted as being the one ballsy enough to stand up to Orton. They both did to job to Orton at Wrestlemania, but Ted returned to TV quicker and with momentum provided by utilizing his father's legacy while Cody was written off with an injury. In my opinion, Ted looks much better than Cody coming out of Legacy.
     
  6. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    Good Luck to you too Dirty.

    I guess it is pretty fair considering the length of time after Mania, but while Ted was showing off his trust fund on RAW, Cody was selling a injury from the punt he took during that match. This is a move that has in kayfabe injured various superstars since Orton started using it. HBK, RVD, John Cena, HHH, and Batista is the short list of major stars that have sold the devastating affects of the punt. If the move took out big time names like that, I'm not at all shocked that it took out Cody for a good while. After this he was drafted to SmackDown and had a match or two before he was repackaged with a new gimmick. Since then he has donned the "Dashing" gimmick he has been on the rise of the mid-card. Where has Dibiase seems to be in limbo on RAW and doesn't know where to go following that blunder of a feud with Morrison (you know if you can call that a feud).

    It's really quite the quick fix if he is getting the favor of the crowd. This gimmick could kick off as a face if he were to target the right heel. I'm sure if he Rhodes wanted to give Ziggler and Vickie some tips to look better and began a feud with them it could work out decently. That's even if the crowd gets on his side and from what I've seen on SmackDown he is getting decent heat, don't get me wrong it's not the best and it's a work in progress but at least he isn't receiving overwhelming cheers. He has some work to go before he rises the ranks but he is getting somewhere and has the audience reacting. Cody isn't supposed to be a threatening character. Usually that role is for monster heels to always have a threatening presence about them. Cody is going to get under the skin of people by always making them sound inferior to him. He thinks of himself as the perfect male and is trying to make the fans look better than they already do for his benefit. The fact that he basically offers tips to make the audience think they have to do this to stop being ugly is enough for them to start hating this guy's guts. So due to this as time goes on Rhodes will build enough heat to climb up the card one baby step at a time. Dolph Ziggler is a completely different story than Rhodes. He went from a guy always introducing himself to a aggressive challenger that attacked Rey Mysterio to get title shots. Beyond that he didn't really have much of a character and didn't really connect with the crowd during his first push, which is the reason it got derailed. Cody Rhodes so far has not been having this problem and will reach a mid-card title a lot faster than Dolph did.

    Are you sure this heat you are talking about is the good heel heat a successful heel is supposed to get? Or could be that get the hell out of the ring/off of my TV heat that usually isn't a welcomed kind of heat? After watching Ted these past few months that is the vibe I'm getting from the crowd, which is the fact that they are bored and simply don't care to see him. You're friend may feel that way, but in the end that's just one person out of a huge amount of wrestling fans. He may give him legit heel heat, but plenty others just do want too see him every Monday night. Dibiase is a boring mic worker. He's very bland and that is why the crowd usually doesn't care to listen to him. Cody Rhodes on the other hand has a good charisma and presence to him and helps his usually solid promos. He's not perfect on the stick but I believe he's leaps and bounds better than Ted. The more entertaining you are in both fields of your character (meaning in ring work and mic skills) will benefit you when it comes to time to connect with a crowd. Which in the end Cody is better than Ted since he has the advantage of being good in both fields. Ted just seems to be solid in the ring and even than he can be quite bland, which doesn't help that he's boring pretty much everywhere else in his arsenal. Cody has that extra something that ted doesn't and it will benefit him much more in the end than Ted's typical "main event looking" physique will.

    The history is their for any next generation star. You have given Randy Orton as an example, and I will now explain why it is wrong to compare the two. Randy will always have previous family history as will both Dibiase and Rhodes. The thing is though WWE never tried to make Orton the next cowboy like his father. Now at the beginning of his career it was evident that Orton had a lack of character he eventually formed into The Legend Killer and Viper gimmicks that have turned him into a bigger star than his father ever was and have built up his legacy quite nice. When he was The Legend Killer he was a smug, brash youngster who disrespected and attacked veterans of the business to build upon his own legacy. As The Viper he is sadistic, calculating individual who picks apart everyone who gets in his way. Ss with Rhodes his gimmick(s) were not at all like his father's. With Ted Jr. on the other hand he has basically become a dull rehash of his father's once great gimmick. It's a new era and fresh new gimmicks are always welcomed and usually give performers that distinct edge to them. With Ted obviously walking around claiming to be rich and holding his dad's old belt it makes people just roll their eyes and complain about how he has to use his father's entire legacy to try and get over. This is something neither Rhodes or Orton have done, the history may be there but they are not relying on their father's pasts to get them more over.

    I'm glad they didn't use a Dusty Rhodes like gimmick on Cody. That would have been terrible and probably would have caused the crowd to give him "I don't want to see you" heat that I was talking about. Having a fresh, new and perfect gimmick for said wrestler will get them to connect with a wrestler more. When they do this that wrestler will get more over and with overness comes titles. These two will both try and work their way up the mid-card and win a title there before escalating to the main event where one of them will win a world title. Which at this rate due to this recent turn of events seems to be Rhodes. My next statement explaining why will be the response to your last paragraph.

    Now earlier you brought up the fact that WWE kept Dibiase on RAW, while sending Rhodes to SmackDown. Which apparently means WWE is in favor of Dibiase. This will also be a big down fall for "Million Dollar" Ted because on RAW it is a lot more difficult to climb the ladder of success than it is to do so on SmackDown. Just ask Jeff Hardy who was drafted there as a mid-carder and was so over he rose the ranks to his first world title months later. Now don't get me wrong I'm not comparing Rhodes' popularity to Hardy's but I was I just giving an example of how much more beneficial it is for mid-carders to gain their first world title while on the SmackDown roster. If Rhodes becomes so over to the point where it's time to bump him up from the mid-card, then WWE will do so and he will be competing for world titles while Dibiase is still struggling to make it to the top of RAW because of all clutter that constantly fill up the top spots of the brand.
     
  7. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    I'm not saying the Cody being gone wasn't written as part of the storyline well, indeed it was what they needed to reboot his gimmick as they did. However, it did kill any momentum he had and forced him to start back from scratch for the heat he tries to get. Ted didn't miss a beat switching into his new roll, moving him up the ladder quicker than Cody.

    Cody was drafted, won a match against John Morrison, then lost a match to Christian and then disappeared from Smackdown for a month. That's not ripping up the mid-card.

    But isn't he supposed to be heel? I'm not saying there can't ever be an in-between, but getting people to chuckle at his promos is not getting over. Well all, as fans, have soft spots for goofy characters and gimmicks like this, but does that make them main event ready? Cody needs to come off as a threat more than he needs to come off as a comedy guy. Part of what makes the guys in charge feel that you are ready for a world title is that you can get the crowd to react the way you want them to. I don't feel that about Cody when he's trying to get over as a heel and is only drawing luke warm face reactions.

    If he's not a threat, then what heck would he ever be doing around a world title? I think it's acceptable to have a mid-card champion use such a gimmick, but for a world title I think the champion should be able to appear like they can handle the threats to them somehow. They can just be that damn good, or they can be in with a crowd of guys to protect him, or they can have the ear of the boss. At least with Ted, it's believable that he could buy his protection as a world champion. What would Cody do? Drive away competitors by talking about facials all night?

    Agreed. Placing him more than a few baby steps behind Ted.

    They both reach for that "I'm so perfect" gimmick. Dolph's way of showing that was smug and earnest way he went about introducing himself and his reactions to being snubbed. Cody went a more obvious (and I'll admit more entertaining) path by being an out and out pretty boy. Still, the concepts are rooted in the same idea of "I'm so perfect".

    I'm sure that it's more heat than Cody gets. And I'm sure that it's not "X-Pac heat", as I don't think there is anyone in the WWE right now who truly pulls that kind of heat (besides perhaps Cena). His gimmick was designed to play on the jealousy and loathing people have for the "over-privileged", and as such pulls some real passion out of some people.

    Just as I'm sure you'll find plenty that think Cody Rhodes should never be a world champion. Until I start seeing a more negative reception from the WWE Universe, I'm going with the fact that both of them are accepted performers in the eyes of the crowd. And, again, I don't see Cody inspiring that same sense of loathing in the crowd.

    I distinctly recall Cody coming across as the noobie on the mic while in Legacy, while Ted was convincing enough to appear as the rising challenger to Orton's status as the leader of that group (so much so that the internet could not stop talking about it for a year). Ted's promo on his relationship with his father and the re-debut of the Million Dollar Championship was perfectly executed.

    [YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T1Hn0dtPj5Y?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T1Hn0dtPj5Y?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

    Starts at about the 3:00 mark. Here is the link since YouTube embedding doesn't always work right for me recently: 5/4/10 Raw (3:00 in is DiBiase).

    A simple twist on his existing gimmick that didn't need vignettes and a month off to perform. It was instantly effective, and utilized his natural strengths as an actor and his family's history well. I think he did a damn fine job of knocking this important promo out of the park.

    Cody has only recently come across as anything but a rookie on the mic. Only with his new pretty boy gimmick does he appear as anything else than wet behind the ears. That's hardly placing him leaps and bounds ahead of Ted in a world title hunt.

    The best Cody could hope for right now is winning the Intercontinental Championship, placing in a pool of talent like Dolph and Kofi, possibly McIntyre and MVP. Meanwhile, over on Raw, Ted could easily make a play for the United States Championship scene, placing him with The Miz and Daniel Bryan, two of the hottest stars in the WWE in years. Even losing he looks better being on the screen with more popular performers and more exposure than Smackdown can provide Cody.

    Randy needed to have his father's reputation to build the "Legend Killer" gimmick around. It was his motivation, and what enabled him to have the insider's advantage taking on the "Legends". And Cody Rhodes was introduced with his whole gimmick built around "Hey, my dad is Dusty Rhodes". Even his first segment with his father and Randy took full advantage of both's family history.

    You don't think that in a period of financial crisises and tight budgets that a reboot of the "Rich Man" gimmick is timely, relevant, and effective? I think that's some good creative work right there. That's more relevance to the real world than the WWE usually shows (besides Striker making Sandra Bullock jokes on PPV's). I recall this place buzzing again for Ted when he brought that belt back onto Raw in May. I don't think that's very dull at all.

    Because a "Cowboy" gimmick in this day and age would have been horrible (besides, WWE already had JBL), and as I mentioned in a previous post, trying to make Cody just like Dusty wouldn't have worked (namely because he doesn't have the look or the mic chops). Even then, Cody plays on his family history to this day; you don't think there's a little bit of Goldust in "Dashing" Cody? And I don't get where this criticism of Ted comes from, and I don't understand why it is so wrong of him to carry on his dad's gimmick. It's not like Cody is writing his own segments while Ted is just reading his dad's old ones: they both are subject to what creative gives them. Please explain to me how fans dig Cody more for "making his own gimmick" when both are in the age where everything is scripted down to the quotation marks on "Dashing" by a creative team.

    Matt Hardy is a performer with "overness"; where are his world titles? Christian is over with the fans? Where is his WWE world title?

    Which brings me to another point: It was never mentioned that either of them would win a WWE world title before the other, but that simply one would pick up a world title before the other. And judging the two of them based on their potential and their worth to TNA, I think that Ted would also be more likely to pick up a world title in TNA before Cody. Ted fits in great with the other up and coming main eventers in TNA, and you know that they would love to get their hands on his family name.

    This is simply not an accurate comparison by any means. Rhodes has nowhere near the cult following that Jeff had prior to winning his first world title. At all. And how good did that whole "stepping up from mid-card to world champion on Smackdown" bit work out for other guys with more realistically comparable followings like Jack Swagger? Finally, with Undertaker's return, Smackdown is not quite the "loser's paradise" it was after the draft: Undertaker, Rey Mysterio, Kane, CM Punk, and Big Show each could be in the title scene. I'm supposed to believe that "Dashing" Cody Rhodes could hang with Undertaker and Kane? Especially when the competition he had in the mid card was McIntyre, Kofi, and Dolph Ziggler.

    You keep making it sound so simple; that the fans are all going click on to Cody and that the WWE will see it and make him champion. Ha, if only it were that easy. Again, if that was the case, why isn't Matt Hardy a world champion? Or Christian? There is much more that goes into this than just "overness". Who's already starred in a WWE movie? Who looks more imposing and threatening, as opposed to scrawny and effeminate? Who has WWE already shown more faith in? Who had more shining moments in Legacy than the other? Why, I think the answer is Ted DiBiase Jr.

    Back to you, Spood.
     
  8. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    Ted didn't miss a beat because he was only hit with a mere RKO. Unlike Cody who was kicked in the skull and suffered a *kayfabe* injury. Of course it was believable that Ted would show up the next night on RAW, as he only got RKO'd. Cody had to sell the devastating affect of the punt.

    You seemed to have misunderstood me. I said everything since his return under the "Dashing" has been brilliant. He has got some important mid-card wins during this time and is solidifying himself to get a future opportunity for the Intercontinental Championship. Which is the first step in a wrestler's climb to fame. Going to the top of the mid-card and winning it's title. And from there the next necessary steps will be made.

    Yes he is a heel character before but why is it bad that fans think his promos are funny? There have been some successful comedic heels in the past. The Rock for instance when he was repackaged after his run as Rocky Maivia, cut funny promos all the time that I'm sure made a lot of the audience "chuckle" even though they hated him. I'm sure there could be a similar case with Cody. Also I'm going to flat out say right now that neither Ted or Cody are any where near ready to be in the main event. The two have some mid-card work to do and they need to win themselves a singles title. So in that regards I think Cody will even taste the IC title, before Ted wins himself a US title. Which will reveal that Cody is climbing the singles ladder faster than Ted.

    Also how do we know WWE just plans to use the way we have only seen him for the past month? The answer is we don't. Any week now they could have go out and savagely beat down a popular face mid-carder and then have him work as a goofy pretty boy but when he wants to be he can have a truly aggressive mean streak. Which if they decide to go a route like that (which does seem likely) than that will also help him generate some more heat as well. Also if he catches on as a face, if he has the right heel the gimmick could work as well. Maybe not as perfect as it would heel, but still good enough to keep the audience invested.

    Apart from his them music Dolph doesn't overly portray himself as "perfection". As I said he was a goofy guy who introduced himself every time you seen him to a aggressive yet smug young man who was title hungry. Cody is all about looking perfect and prides himself on being the "perfect" male. He even tries to "help" the fans with their look by providing them with the humorous grooming tip episodes. The two are very much different as Cody is all about looking perfect, where as Ziggler is only portrayed as perfection in his theme music.

    He may get better heat than Cody once in a while but it's not often. As I have seen from many RAW episodes the crowd is usually quiet and does not care about Ted. Heck I get bored with him often. He is just bland all the way around. His mic work is often abysmal and seems to have the personality of a dead rat at times. Also he may be solid in the ring, but that is also another area where he lacks a little bit. He is overall very plotting and slow which in the end doesn't help his cause. Cody on the other hand has great athleticism and can make matches exciting. Such as his few SmackDown matches he has had recently. Cody also has a charisma and presence about him that reflects his promos. These two advantages he has over Ted will benefit him. Maybe not by leaps and bounds as I exaggerated earlier, but it will benefit him nonetheless.

    Again it's only an aggressive side to be revealed and a total attack of the mid-card to get those fans to boo. He may not be doing so yet, but when he does it will benefit him in ways that greatly benefit his career.

    I never seen that way because in my eyes as well as many others both Legacy brethren came out as damaged goods. For the most part they were mindless followers of Randy Orton and did everything they could to please him. Also it was every other Orton encounter that lead to the both of them getting beaten up or laid out. The "stable" with Orton did nothing for either man really so in the end their singles careers were a start over for the both of them. Also their lack of mic time didn't help either of them but usually every time I watched them speak Cody always sounded more natural. While Ted on the other hand was as bland as wet cloth. But they both suffered from that "better seen not heard" feel from Legacy and Orton.

    The problem with that is it isn't working. This Million Dollar rehash gimmick is making the crowd care less about him than they did before. It's failing because it's not helping his cause for getting over with the audience. He is a perfect example of Generic Wrestler 101. Bland when he speaks and bland when he gets in the ring and competes (I made a rhyme). This rehash of his dad's gimmick is not working so why not repackage him with something new? Because they are relying on him to follow his father's exact foot steps to get over which isn't happening because Sr. had the type of charisma and personality that his son severely lacks.

    I may have been exaggerating there a little bit but Cody does sound a lot more natural when cutting a promo. Ted Dibiase on the other hand puts people to sleep when he speaks. In the end having an interesting personality will greatly benefit a wrestler's career which is the benefit that Cody has and Ted doesn't.

    Which is the first essential step in moving your way up in a career. Unless you happen to be Sheamus, wrestlers usually start off in the mid-card, work their way up that division and win the title, stay on top of the division before they move up to bigger and better things. Ted may get a shot at the US title once Bryan and Miz's feud is dead and gone, but before than the only title Ted will be sniffing will be his daddy's rehashed belt he wears. Cody may have an opportunity at the IC title as early as Night of Champions if they decide to have a multi-man match for it.

    Obviously next generation stars will always live off of their family's heritage or at least have a lot of reference to it. Orton used his dad as inspiration for his career much like Cody did with Dusty. They didn't flat out rehash their daddy's old gimmicks like Ted did.

    Are you sure WWE is that clever? Or is this an attempt to rehash an old gimmick on the "fortunate" son? I think it's a desperate attempt at getting Dibiase over more so than a clever gimmick to get heat over the financial crisis we have around the world. I really wouldn't look that much into it.

    No shit, I'm glad they haven't really ever tried a modern cowboy gimmick. If they did that poor wrestler would receive instant XPac Heat. Cody wouldn't have worked in his father's boots either because they are so different. Two completely different looks and I'll admit Dusty was way more charismatic than his son, but that still doesn't take away from he fact that Cody is the more natural mic worker when it comes to comparing him to Ted. I will say for the record that I do not see any Goldust in the "Dashing" character, do explain that.

    Both Christian and Matt Hardy may be over but not immensely. If they were WWE would have probably given them the nod as they would anybody who gets cheers like Cena or Jeff Hardy before he left. But since they aren't hugely over and WWE doesn't see them as main event caliber stars they don't move them up the card. But if they were as over as someone like Jeff Hardy was then they would have no choice but push them because it would be good for business. This could happen to Cody it might not. I'm going to be optimistic and say it won't. Also regarding TNA you're right because if either of these two men left to go there they would win a world title faster than the other because they would be in the lesser company.

    It wasn't a comparison at all, Jeff Hardy was my RAW mid-carder turned SmackDown main eventer example. I was not at all comparing him to Rhodes, yet another misunderstanding. No one thought Swagger would successfully cash in his briefcase. From what I remember many thought he would be the first to fail at cashing in and winning a title. So I would hardly call him a mid-carder with a good "following". Also yes Undertaker is back and will be in the top spot until he takes time off/gets hurt again, but Cody is going to be built up in the mid-card for the next good while. Of course I can't see him as legit contender against Taker because there is a lot more building in store for the "Dashing" one.

    I didn't mean to make it sound that easy. What I meant was over a good portion of time. In fact I don't see Rhodes headed up to the main even for a good while, but he will be there before Dibiase because he has a presence and charisma about him that benefits his character and makes his personality interesting. Dibiase does not have this advantage. Again Matt Hardy and Christian were never draws and get only a favorable reaction so WWE doesn't try their drawing power as headliners. Only time will tell if Cody follows the path of mid-carder for life or main event star. But I will be optimistic and say that gimmick will be get him far in his career.[/QUOTE]
     
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  9. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    You don't think that the somewhere in creative the decision was made to keep Cody off TV to give him the drastic reinvention that he needed and allow Ted to stay on TV because he had showed promise and potential during their Legacy run together? I see what you are saying, but that kind of booking isn't just done randomly; if they take you off TV, it's for a reason.

    I'll give you that, but barely. Anything before the last two/three weeks was rather weak looking.

    I addressed that later in my response, and I'll repeat again; Ted stands to gain from his peers on Raw being some of the best, and while Cody may tear up the ranks in Smackdown, he'll still have never competed against anyone as reputable as the stars on the Monday night roster. I've no doubt that Cody can cut his way up the ladder in time, but I'm not convinced that he can catch up to Ted that quickly.

    First of all, Cody is no Rock. He may be entertaining on the mic, but he lacks in plenty of other areas, namely his ring presence and his physique, that Rock just blows him away in. Secondly, it was because of those other talents and features that Cody lacks that Rocky was able to recover from his disastrous first push. I'm sure Cody can make this work for him in time, tonight was a good step in that direction, but these things don't change over night, even on a really good night.

    Sounds a lot like what you were saying Dolph Ziggler was/is.

    And they could easily give DiBiase a similar push to similar results. We can talk about the could be's based on potential booking all night, but based on what is going on right now I just don't see Cody catching on as a main even heel at this time.

    Ziggler was not nearly as obvious about it as Cody has been, but the whole heel appeal they were going for with his first push was all about him believing he was perfect, that he was God's gift to the WWE. Hence the smug attitude when introducing himself, and his disbelief when no one would return the gesture. I mean, let's look at the definition of smug: "Exhibiting or feeling great or offensive satisfaction with oneself or with one's situation". I'd call that acting as if one was perfect, or without flaw.


    I think he nailed this, like other key promos he's had, out of the park with the cocky attitude he carries himself with. I think many others would strike out trying to get under your skin the way he can.

    If Ted seems slower compared to Cody, it's because he's built more like what a world champion should be built like, unlike Cody's tiny frame. I don't find him all that slugish; even if he isn't moving as fast as a cruiserweight, he's got storytelling fundamentals down and he can do transitions and counters quite nicely. I'd like to share this footage of him in a match against Kenta Kobayashi in which he does some great back and forth and keeps a good pace going for a rather long match, by American standards.

    Part 1
    [YOUTUBE]5ojQs4glC3w[/YOUTUBE]

    Part 2
    [YOUTUBE]mlfaXHSx6i8[/YOUTUBE]​

    I'll give him the Rhodes natural charisma, but you haven't shown me how Cody is any better than Ted in the ring. Being smaller and quicker doesn't make him the better performer as far as match quality is concerned.

    Neither would be where they are at all if it wasn't for Randy Orton and Legacy. In time, you'll see that their time in the group will help them, if only to set up angles and feuds down the line. But that's getting off topic.

    When Ted would butt heads with Randy in Legacy, he'd be confrontational until Randy put him in his place. When Cody butt heads with Randy in Legacy, he cowered and apologized and got his "Cody Sad Face".

    Don't act like they are doing every little thing that they ever did with Sr with Jr, because Maryse is not a young Steve Austin, he hasn't dissed a kid with a basketball, and he doesn't cut the same kid of promos. Everything play he pulls from daddy's playbook gets a distinctly Ted Jr. feel to it. Ted Sr. came off as a big real estate tycoon-type millionaire, while Ted Jr. brings a tangible "Trust fund baby" aspect to it that his father never had. In short, while the gimmick is the same, he is very different type of "rich guy" than his father was.

    I think Ted "trust fund baby" "the fortunte son" DiBiase has plenty of personality. Obviously, WWE felt he had better screen presence too, as they cast him in the lead to their movie The Marine 2. I know that you and I may like Cody's personality more, but that doesn't mean Ted has none. There's no accounting for taste. What's important is how the people backstage and in the offices view you and your impact. It seems to me that until his recent stretch of wins on Smackdown, creative has had nothing for Cody ever, while they have been quite high on Ted Jr.

    And I stand by my statement that Ted has more to gain by being around Miz and Bryan than Cody has to gain by beating Dolph Ziggler or Kofi Kingston for the IC title. Merely holding the title doesn't put you at the front of the pack, otherwise Kofi and Dolph would be further up the card, as would McIntyre.

    And you keep saying this as a bad thing. I was quite pleased to see Ted taking on another aspect of his gimmick that fit naturally and within the confines of kayfabe/continuity. I know that you want to give Cody/Creative credit for trying something not related to Dusty (as his gimmick is not new or original, indeed it's an archtype), but that's hardly reason enough to declare that Cody will be champ before Ted.

    For all their follies, yes, I do think WWE is clever enough to have realized that a "rich man" gimmick in this day and age would stand out and play on natural feelings in viewers. I know we all like to knock WWE for some of their more silly policies and actions, but I think you are grasping at straws here trying to play off the gimmick as desperate as opposed to well timed and well read.

    The sense of vanity and the effeminate attitude. I wasn't trying to make it seem more than it is; like I said, a little bit of Goldust. Still, can you explain how Cody's stock is supposed to rise simply on the fact that he's not using a gimmick based on his father's legacy?

    I hate to admit it, but both Christian and Hardy have much bigger followings than Cody, and both get more reactions than Cody, beyond a shadow of a doubt. The only thing Cody holds over them is that he still seems fresh. However, the point remains that each had and still have a large fan following at shows and on the internet. You can't go a few days around here without another "why isn't Matt/Christian Champion yet?" thread. People obviously dig them, so what's holding them back? Maybe it's that there is a lot more that goes into choosing a champion than simply fan reaction.

    Even Jeff Hardy had to wait forever and day before WWE started booking him as a main eventer. And that guy had a following Cody couldn't hope to match any time soon. As I've said before, it's just not as simple as you try to make it seem.

    I meant that as if they both showed up on the same day. All things being equal, TNA would put Ted over Cody without a thought. Let us not forget that we are talking about a world title here, and Ted looks the part much much more than Cody does.

    He was getting more air time and a better push than Cody does usually, and he just came off of a spectacular run in ECW (minus one dropped belt botch). I'm not saying he was a well established star, but he certainly was leaps and bounds ahead of where Cody is today. He had held the US Title and the ECW title within the year prior, I'd call that being a decent mic-carder, at least.

    And this is where Ted's size advantage comes into play. Cody is no Rey Mysterio either; he'll have to work hard for a long time to develop Rey's reputation as a "Giant Killer". So how is Cody ever to be taken seriously against guys like that?

    If you don't consider Matt and Christian a draw, how do you consider Cody one? Or at least, what makes you think he is any better than either of them? I've never seen Cody once come anywhere near getting the reactions out of the crowd that either of them gets usually. While reactions aren't an accurate measurement of a performer's drawing power, how is Cody ever going to crack that ceiling if they never have?
     
  10. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    No kidding wrestlers are taken off of television for a reason. They are either injured, need to be repackaged, take time off, etc. But you still need to book them with a reason that they aren't on television for the time period they are missing.

    Not really, main eventing an edition of SmackDown, getting a chance in the MITB Ladder Match, and scoring a fair amount of mid-card victories doesn't tend to make a wrestler look weak.

    Ted may be going up against some arguable bigger names but thats depends solely on opinion. Right now Ted is working the mid-card on RAW for which has the likes of John Morrison and R-Truth for him to have matches with not really bigger time face stars in the mid-card to brag about, but then again they could have him feud with Daniel Bryan who seems to be next in line for a US title run. But really at the level Bryan is at is no lesser than Cody competing against Kofi Kingston for an IC title. Also getting victories over Christian and Matt Hardy are always considered major for a mid-card star. They may lose often but they always bring credibility to the stars who defeat them. Can you say the same about the mid-carders that fill up the spots on RAW for Dibiase?

    Of course he's not, I don't think there has ever been a wrestler since The Rock who has been able to match his promo skills. Cody's ring presence seems fine to me as I don't think he lacks anything in the ring, and the only thing that may hold him back may be his leaner, less muscular physique but did that stop CM Punk from his pushes in the mid-card or main event? I think not as before Punk hit the main event he was a very dominant mid-card figure. We also don't know how long it will take for Rhodes to make it to the top of th mid-card but I'm sure with the lesser talents on SmackDown it won't take that long. However for both Rhodes and Dibiase they are a long shot away from ever getting a taste of the main event scene.

    Time is a wondrous thing. It may cause great things to happen quick, or take a good while. Rhodes could have a quick boom of success in the mid-card or it could take him awhile. Either way he is no where near touching the main event scene and that also applies for "Million Dollar" Ted.

    He never believed in being perfection other than his theme song stating it. All he did was introduce himself for while he was on RAW, then when he got drafted he started to viciously attack faces. Albeit due to the fact that he has never really been given mic time, but we never really heard much from Ziggler until recently. Cody has done a lot of good work on the stick to further his gimmick and is doing a good job at it. That is where the difference lies in between the two.

    One promo doesn't mean a lot. I have found other promos where his voice trails off, he stumbles over his words, and truly just comes off very bland. I will post these videos here so I'm not just blowing smoke:

    [YOUTUBE]1yTNLB0Bqu8[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]wIhYhIYR4IM[/YOUTUBE]​

    Well those are examples from a different and foreign company. Also look who he is working with, KENTA is a great worker and could probably carry a lot of mediocre folk to a good or even great match. Let me provide you with a spectacular Dibiase snore fest which is a basic carbon copy for all of his matches:


    I'll now provide with you match where Cody was great in the ring and had MOTN with Christian. Christian had already previously worked with Dibiase and Rhodes had the better match with him. Here is my example of some great Rhodes in ring work:


    Not really, because if Orton had helped benefit their careers so much through Legacy wouldn't you think they would at least be at better state in both their careers? Legacy did nothing but over expose them as Randy's lackey and now both of them have to reinvent themselves all over again in hopes of being pushed. In my mind Cody is doing the far more superior job.

    I remember Dibiase being just as much of wimp when it came to dealing with Randy Orton. Other than those two times they had a random match against one and other and in one instance I believe he lied down for his master anyway.

    I didn't say that because it's obvious they can't do that. Still doesn't mean that Ted is rehashing a gimmick and trying to make it fit. Claiming you have a trust fund and being so fortunate while simultaneousness holding a Millon Dollar belt really doesn't make for a great gimmick, especially when the man portraying it has the personality of a wet noodle. His dad had the personality to pull off his version of the gimmick, Dibiase doesn't have that advantage when it comes to making the rehash work.

    Look above at the examples, he is often boring to listen too and when he doesn't have the right worker is quite monotonous to watch as well. He is basically the definition of a monotonous wrestler. Cody while he isn't the most exciting star ever has an entertaining quality about him, I haven't seen that from Dibiase no matter how much he has tried.

    Maybe more from being around The Miz but he's a heel so it wouldn't be relevant to talk about anyway. Feuding with Bryan would get some kind of notoriety but it would be the exact same equivalent to Cody feuding with Kingston for a mid-card title. They have the same star quality mid-card title contenders/champions so it doesn't give them a boom over each other but Cody is in favor of winning a mid-card title first. I have stated that it is time they should try Kofi as a headliner and that he should be up the card, don't know why they haven't done that yet. Also Drew McIntyre would have been higher up the card by now if management didn't lose faith in him and if he didn't suck so much.

    He will most likely be a mid-card champion first which will put him a step above Ted in terms of standings on the cards of their respective shows. The belt will also help get him more over in the process whil Dibiase flounders around aimlessly on RAW. As Rhodes gets more over, he will be essentially climbing up the ranks of the card wouldn't he?

    Sure you could think of it that way or you it truly could be a rehash. Which I believe it is.Sure it may got under the skin of an odd person, but during many Dibiase matches the crowd has shown they don't give a care much like when they tried to push McIntyre up the card fast. Yet they rely on him being rich and the fortunate son to Sr. to get cheap heat similar to McIntyre having to rely on Vince for heat being his "golden boy" and all.

    New fresh faces if they ended up having what it takes rise the ranks because the fans get behind them, whether it's booing or cheering. It's early to tell how far this gimmick will take Cody but from the initial reaction it has got in a short time, I think they might have something there.

    No kidding, I would expect them too since they are over ten year veterans in the business. Cody basically just had re-debut and is basically starting all over from scratch. I would say give the gimmick some time and a chance as it's already starting to pick up some kind of steam. If both Hardy and Christian were big time draws they would have a held at least one world title right now but neither of them ever became what they should have.

    Once again taking an example out of context and thinking I was comparing to Cody when in reality that wasn't the case at all.

    Maybe, but both of them aren't in TNA so it's kind of irrelevant to debate about don't you think?

    Not really before he won MITB he was having comedy matches against Santino and i think lost on one occasion. He never held the US title on RAW as only Kofi Kingston and The Miz were champions during his time on that brand so he didn't do much in RAW's mid-card and he ended up being a shocking MITB winner as well as a shocking new world champion. Hardly leaps and bounds above Cody at this time, and I'm glad they're not doing the same with him and instead are actually building him up properly.

    Cody is no where near the tininess of Rey Mysterio. He is taller and can actually look people in the eyes. So this statement right here is really invalid. I kind of picture Cody more of a Christian size which you're right may hurt him but only time will tell and I'm being optimistic and saying that WWE will look past that since they are more keen on pushing smaller less muscular guys. Just ask Evan Bourne, Daniel Bryan, and Kofi Kingston. Ted's size may give him an advantage if he can get over his overall blandness, but hey Batista was successful so I guess there might be some clout here.

    They don't put butts in seat unfortunately. And this is coming from a HUGE fan of both of these guys. Great workers, but they aren't money makers and due to that they sadly don't get the credit they deserve. But this is only revealed after ten years. Cody has just started his singles career, which I'll admit at this point can go either but you have to say the same for Ted as well. I'm sure though that Rhodes' natural charisma and unique presence will benefit him more than Ted's "money" and physique.
     
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  11. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    I understand that. My point is that at some place and time in a creative meeting, the issue was brought up, and the decision was made on which of the two was still ready for Raw, and which of the two needed time off. Since neither of them were legitimately injured, nor were there any reports of problems or other things which necessitated taking Cody off the air, the only other logical reason for the decision was that WWE creative simply feels that Ted was the more marketable star. That kind of support is necessary to ever come close to winning a world title in the WWE.

    I think what you meant was "no better than Cody", but I get it. Unless you agree with me that Bryan's current status is not lesser than Cody in a feud with Kofi for the IC title, but in fact it is greater. Cody just simply does not have the buzz that Bryan and Miz do right now.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Yeah, whatever happend to those guys that went over Christian and/or Matt Hardy recently? I know Zeke is out with injury, or was, but he wasn't exactly cutting his way up the charts off of his work with Christian in ECW. And McIntyre had such great momentum and potential until he tangled with Matt Hardy and that whole nightmare of an angle that went nowhere but would not die.

    About The Miz, Raw's MitB winner who's both the mid-card champion and flirting with the main event? Or Daniel Bryan, the "internet sensation" who alongside Wade Barrett is responsible for the start of the biggest angle in years? John Morrison has the same "fan reaction-no momentum" role that Christian and Matt provide, and mind you those are the two best on Smackdown's mid-card. But to his credit, he is a big part of why the Miz is over in the first place.

    I am talking about the subtleties of Ziggler's gimmick, and the things that he was able to convey without having to say it. Ziggler/Nemeth has only been around a tad longer than Cody has. Being good talking up your gimmick is priceless, but so is being able to get that message across without having to spell it out. Why was it that he was introducing himself the way he was? Why were people turned off by him that they usually rebuffed his introductions? It was his attitude, his "I am the perfect wrestler" demeanor, the tone in his voice when giving his promos. Being good on the mic isn't just what you say, but how you say it.

    [YOUTUBE]1yTNLB0Bqu8[/YOUTUBE]​


    I see one stumble, but a lot of great moments here. Can you not hear that heat, even through the poor recording? I suspect you are bagging on his pacing, and his delivery, but I find his slow drawl and pacing helps puts him over as a rich douche bag. Apparently, the live crowd thought so too.

    [YOUTUBE]wIhYhIYR4IM[/YOUTUBE]​


    He's worse here than in the first one, but he still served his purpose to both get he and Maryse over as a heel power couple and help build up John Morrison.

    Well, how about another great Ted DiBiase match.

    [YOUTUBE]4n58xMVM2vI[/YOUTUBE]​

    Many of the same techniques he used in Japan he uses to this day. He also helps cover up Christian's poor leap to the outside early on. A great match with great pacing and little of the sluggishness you mentioned.


    You are aware that Ted suffered a concussion very early in this match, right? I think it's hardly fair to criticize a match when Ted was legitimately injured, especially a serious injury like a concussion which very much affects his ability to perform. To his credit, he did still finish the match. In fact, it is believed that the finish was changed on the fly by creative to put R-Truth over instead of the injured Ted as they weren't sure whether or not he'd need time off.


    Rhodes got the better match because he got a better Christian on his way up the mid-card ladder. I do notice though that Cody isn't very good at playing the crowd. Compare to Ted's match with Christian earlier where Ted keeps interest alive in the match and pushes himself further as a heel by doing just that.

    You aren't thinking in the long term. Randy is one of the biggest stars in the WWE right now. Having their storyline history will be an asset to either later on if and when they reach the main event. The potential for any feud between them is great, just as Randy and Batista were able to go back to Evolution for feuds later in their careers.

    So much so that he had to be taken off of television? I think Ted came out with the better deal, while Cody came out looking the youngest child in the family upset that others are fighting. I do recall seeing Ted have to stand up for Cody a few times during their stable's run. As for overexposure, they got to feud with some of the biggest stars in the WWE during 2009, including DX and Batista.

    DiBiase was always more defiant, starting at The Bash in 2009. Cody watch Randy RKO his father, whined about it, and fell in line. At the Royal Rumble, Ted had to come out to save Cody who had failed Orton by getting him DQ'd. Again on Raw, Orton laid out Cody, and Ted stepped up to call him out on it. Cody was the red headed stepchild of Legacy.

    Can you please tell me why reusing a gimmick is so bad? Do you think Cody is the only pretty boy to have come around in wrestling? Concepts like these are what create the characters we know today. The same themes and ideas that went into creating stars now are the same as they were years and years ago. I just don't understand why you feel Ted utilizing the assets he has as a performer well is a bad thing at all.

    His dad was a very different type of "Rich Guy" in a very different time of wrestling. Ted Jr has taken the gimmick and made it his, with his own feel and his own style, and it works for him. It's memorable, it's relevant, and it's effective.

    I don't find him boring to listen to. The majority of his segments on Raw are usually received well by the live crowd, so they don't seem to think he's boring. We saw in an earlier video that he can draw heat well. Doesn't sound very monotonous to me.

    Ha! Again, there are far more eyes on Bryan right now than there are on the IC title scene. Even if you don't subcribe to the hype of Bryan being the best wrestler in the world, he's a much bigger draw than Kofi.

    And this I fear is also Cody's fate on Smackdown: an initial push with no support down the line. Some neat promos and maybe a few good matches and then to the back of the line of the mid-card. The problem with a show loaded with younger talent in the hopes of getting them over is that it you can only push so many people at one time. I just hope Cody doesn't fall into the cracks, as I believe he will.

    This is more of that simplistic view of getting over. I could easily just swap the names and it would just as valid and effective. As I see it, the one with who actually has a singles PPV match under his belt is moving up in the world at a quicker pace. And that would be Ted.

    Go back up and check out that heat again.

    Telling the crowd and people that you look better than them isn't cheap heat? People who rejected McIntyre did so not because of the gimmick, but because of his sudden string of "wins" with very little match work to show for it. Not at all like Ted Jr. beyond being heels in a position of privilege.

    And again, you keep believing in this idea that all fans love a wrestler based on the gimmick alone. Vince giving a similar treatment to HHH is what got him over as one of the biggest heels of all time. You may not like it, but it's been proven to work in the past.

    This is just a broad generalization, nothing unique to Cody. What is it about not using "rehash" gimmick that makes Cody's gimmick so much better?

    Did they not rise up the ranks the same way you envision Cody being able to? Aren't they "over" with the fans the same way you think Cody will be, and isn't that what you are saying is enough to warrant a world title? Why haven't they come to the big table yet? There is a lot more that goes into decisions like that, part of which is how much faith the company shows you. Time and time again, WWE has showed more faith in Ted than Cody.

    Well, it was never mentioned which world title, or that it was specific to WWE. Never say never.

    Which one has been a World Heavyweight Champion? That's what I thought. Regardless of the strength of his title reign, that still places him far above Cody in the order of things.

    Cody doesn't have Bryan's reputation and following. Evan Bourne is a great example of a start-stop push for an undersized guy, so is Kofi, who stepped up in a feud with Randy that just sorta ended in Randy's favor. Where is Jaime Noble again? I see an effort to push the smaller guys, but at the end of the day people usually want the bigger men in the main event.

    Ted isn't very very far ahead of Cody right now, but he is ahead of him. Cody has yet to have a singles match on PPV, and has yet to develop any angles beyond his role in NXT. Ted's gimmick just makes him easier to book, and his physique makes him easier to accept higher up the card than Cody.

    Almost to the finish line, Spood, let's go!
     
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  12. SpoodBeest

    SpoodBeest City Dweller, Successful Fella

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    Ok since we are cutting it close to the end of this here debate I will now provide the finale from my side of it:

    This was the subject at hand that we had to debate on, which I am going to clearly give my points in this closing more clearly than I did when we were going back and forth so that the judges have something to follow a little more easily

    So with that the following point Cody Rhodes has over Ted Dibiase that will benefit him in the long run are as follows:

    1. Cody Has a Natural Charisma and Presence

    What I mean by this is that Cody when he speaks on the mic he feels and sounds very natural and has this distinct presence about him that stands out. His recent work as "Dashing" has been some of the most entertaining promos I have seen in a while from and up and coming wrestler. That in itself should say that over time he will go somewhere, but as it may not be for a while the exact same could be said about Ted Jr. They are pretty much far down in the mid-card and both are neck and neck as I see it right now. However Cody's charisma and entertaining gimmick will benefit him and move him up the ladder at a quicker pace than Ted. Ted needs to work on not being so dry all the time, if he can get past that maybe then he will have a chance.

    2. Ted's Use of an old gimmick, isn't working

    As much as Dirty tried to make it seem like the crowd cared, they really just don't give Dibiase any kind of care at all. I guess it may depend on the cities as some may give him heat but most of the time when I watch RAW when "New Day" hits the crowd usually just doesn't give a shit. No matter how much he talks about getting a hot girlfriend, how much money his daddy gave him, or even about his hand-me-down Million Dollar Belt. The crowd tends to not give a care to Ted Dibiase. Cody is already starting to get a reaction from the crowd whether it is positive or negative Cody is getting the crowd to interact with his character. I do not see this trait with Ted currently.

    3. Cody is the superior worker

    I find Cody Rhodes to be the better in ring performer our of the two. He can have good matches basically whenever he can. His recent matches with Christian and Matt Hardy have proven such. He is fast, exciting, and goes for the higher risk offense only on occasion and when needed. Ted since he has been in WWE has seemingly followed the Orton path of slow, plodding, and tiring to watch matches. He may have a good showing with KENTA outside the WWE, but when has there been a match of the week from Dibiase since his WWE debut? I certainly haven't seen on yet when I have already seen, albeit not much from Cody.

    4. Size is mattering less and less

    WWE is beginning to form a new era that doesn't always seem intent on pushing the guys with impressive physiques anymore. They are looking to push the smaller and more athletic wrestlers of their roster. Which is a great thing because fans are getting more into smaller guys whipping around than bigger guys putting on a snore fest. Daniel Bryan and Kofi Kingston are getting solid mid-card pushes and they are in the class of the smaller wrestler. Cody is in that same class as he has a body similar to Kingston or even Christian if you were to draw the comparisons. His size in this new era that is building will hot hold him back and his in ring performances as well as mic skills will have climb the ladder faster than the "Fortunate Son".

    These and others I may have brought up in my rebuttals are solid facts on why Cody Rhodes (after good time that is) will eventually climb the ladder of success in WWE faster than Ted Dibiase. Thank-you for your time judges.
     
  13. DirtyJosé

    DirtyJosé Best angle of all: retirement

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    I see that the "wrap it up" light has come on, and before I continue I'd like to thank Spoodbeest for his excellent work and wish him luck as he continues in the league.

    That being said, I feel confident repeating my statement that Ted DiBiase Jr. will earn a world title before Cody Rhodes ever will. I present my final case for this:

    Ted DiBiase Jr has more support from creative than Cody has.

    Nice and all that WWE is starting to treat Cody a little more seriously these days, but for over a year it's been clear that they are hotter for Ted than Cody. PPV singles matches, top of the marquee roles in WWE films, and his featured role on Raw after a draft which drew a clear line between established stars on Raw and "not-quites" on Smackdown clearly demonstrate this. Cody is using his time on Smackdown well, but it's still very clear he was sent there because they felt he needed improvement.

    Ted DiBiase Jr has more momentum than Cody does.

    While neither came out of Legacy as the top dog, Ted clearly emerged with better momentum. Cody was taken off of television while Ted was moved quite quickly into his new gimmick and given ample time on television to develop it. Say what you will about his take on his father's gimmick, but it has drawn heat from the crowds. Ted was booked as the big brother to Cody during Legacy, standing up to Orton for Cody plenty of times. This isn't an image Cody will always have, but it certainly affects how quickly he progresses compared to Ted.

    Ted DiBiase Jr is just naturally closer to the type of performer WWE likes to push than Cody is.

    WWE has flirted with trying to put over more small guys with main event players, but beyond The Miz and Daniel Bryan, this endeavor has yet to pay off. In the case of Miz and Bryan, outside influences help drive their rise to popularity. Cody wasn't on a reality tv show, nor is he regarded in many circles as the best wrestler in the world. Ted, meanwhile, is much closer to the look and size that most people can accept in a world title scene.

    This is no knock on Cody, a performer who I enjoy watching, but Ted is just hands down better equipped and better positioned to pick up a world title first.
     
  14. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Great debate, guys. I split all the categories between you two besides punctuality. Although both of you were relatively quick in comparison to how long it takes other debaters to reply, one of Dirty Jose's responses took just a bit more than 24 hours to come in. I feel bad for splitting hairs, but I thought at least one of you deserved a victory here instead of making it a tie. Seriously though, I think you guys would have absolutely maimed anyone else that would've taken either of your places.

    Clarity, Informativeness, Persuasion - Split

    Punctuality - SpoodBeast
     
  15. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Well that was long

    Clarity: - Thought that Dirtyjose's posts generally came across as clearer, every point he made was well backed up

    Point: Dirtyjose

    Punctuality: - Being a latecomer I kinda have to go by what another judge says on this score, so I'll have to give this point to wannabe Dave

    Point: Wannabe Dave

    Informativeness: - Both used videos and some such to back up your arguments, split point I am guessing

    Point: split

    Persuasion: - Both did a good job trying to promote 2 wrestlers that are as bland as the day is long into future World Champions, that sort of thing has to be commended and I switched back and forth between the pair of you each time.

    However, apart from the claim that Cody was the superior worker which wasn't particularly well backed up I've got to say that it was in fact Dave Jr that won me over in the end.

    Point: Dave's penis

    So my scores are

    Dave Jr (Spoodbeest) - 3.5
    Dirtyjose - 1.5
     
    DirtyJosé likes this.
  16. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: DirtyJose
    Nicely laid out and gave thorough reponses without going line by line

    Punctuality: Spoodbeest
    He was the quicker of the two.

    Informative: Draw
    Information was great and plenty given by both of you with words to back them up, good use of video for visual examples.

    Persuasion: DirtyJose
    That being said, Jose was giving better responses and as already mentioned, he was very thorough with his posts and even threw Spood's evidence back at him. He convinced me that Ted was going to get the belt first regardless of the 'slump' he's going through currently

    Final Score
    DirtyJose: 3
    Spoodbeest: 2
     
  17. BooCocky

    BooCocky On A Nature walk with Daniel Bryan

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    Clarity- Dirty Jose had a nicely laid out opener. He also gave some nice replies. Never broke down info too hard. He did an all out nice job.

    Point- Jose

    Punctuality- Spoodbeest was quicker...

    Point- Spoodbeest

    Informative- both gave plenty of information and it was mainly useful info.

    Point- Split

    Persuasion- This goes to Jose because of his responses. They were well thought out and he actually got me to believe Ted was going to get his first. Spoodbeest did a good job but I thought Jose used his information in a very persuasion manner.

    Point- Jose

    Final
    Jose-3.5
    Spoodbeest-1.5
     
  18. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    After a complete judge's tally, both DirtyJose and Spoodbeest drew on 10 points each.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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