Round 3: Numbers v Tenta

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 15, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Who deserves to win the WWE Championship/World Heavyweight Championship before they retire, Christian or Matt Hardy?

    This is a third round match in the Debater's League. Numbers is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    I will debate for Christian to be the more deservng. Tents, you can go first please.

    I now have internet at home so I look forward to doing a lot on this with you.
     
    Tenta likes this.
  3. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    As I do, Numeros. As do I.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I've been charged with the attempt to prove to you all that Matt Hardy is more deserving of a championship run than Christian. Both are names that have toiled in the mid card, both are names that have their own smarky little contingency of fans, and both are seen as "under utilized performers". Personally, I'm going to stay consistent, and at least state that I care for neither of these superstars that much. That said, Matt is far more deserving of a title run, and here's why:

    1. Anything Christian has done, so has Matt Hardy

    Tis true, really. Matt Hardy and Christian's careers have a habit of intertwining over time, partially because they were so involved in revitalizing the tag team division. As many times Christian has thrown himself off the ladder to do the flippy flips, so has Matt Hardy. As many times as Christian has crashed through tables, so has Matt Hardy. Matt has put himself through just as much peril, and actually did so in a much safer manner, than Christian has. Furthermore, what fame has Christian achieved that Matt Hardy hasn't? Mid Card Titles? Yeah, for every lackluster Intercontinental Title run with Christian, I see you with a US Title run by Matt Hardy. For all of Christian's time with the ECW Championship, Matt Hardy has done the exact same thing. The truth is, there is nothing that Christian hasn't done that Matt Hardy hasn't either. In short, these two are relative equals as it pertains to how much fame and relevance they've achieved in the company. And, as have been proven over time.

    2. The More Loyal Worker is the one who will get the push; that's Matt Hardy

    When I say everything Christian has done, so has Matt Hardy, I was wrong. Well, not wrong, just a little misleading. Christian has done something Matt has never done; he's left Vince in a time when he was going to get the big push. Let's rewind the clock back to 2005, shall we? Christian is in the middle of his biggest push of his life. He's working in the upper mid card, he's cutting admittedly entertaining promos, he even worked a main event or two against John Cena. He was drafted to Smackdown, and expected to become a breakout superstar on the show.

    What happened? He went to the competition. Say what you will, but that, to Vince McMahon, is the biggest no-no you can perform to Vince, aside from simply no-showing. Sure, he may bring you back, but you'll never receive be half the star you used to be. Lex Luger, Randy Savage, Tony Atlas, Ricky Steamboat, all are names that have jilted Vince at some point, and have left him. All of which, pretty much were ruined by the WWE machine, because of a lack of loyalty to Vince. Time and history have proven that once you leave Vince for the competition, you're name is mud.

    Meanwhile, Vince has proven over time if you're a loyal worker, who stays true to him, you're going to receive your run with the world title. Kane, Bret Hart to some extent, Chris Benoit. All are names that got a run with the title, because they have been loyal to Vince, only done as he has asked, and have been nothing but professional workers. That is Matt Hardy in a nutshell. His love of his life was stolen by him from his best friend, and he stayed loyal to the company. His crystal meth addicted brother left for the competition and urged Matt to join his pot smoking buddies, and he's stayed loyal. Matt has put over so many names, and has stayed loyal. Matt Hardy has proven to us all he will always stick with Vince, no matter what. Christian, on the other hand, has not.

    3. Matt Hardy has an intensity that screams World Champion; Christian doesn't

    At the end of the day, we like if our World Champions can kick it into another gear, and be more intense on matters. We like the tense energy that can follow a world champion. Matt Hardy has it; Christian does not. Christian never has proven he can get angry, or that he has a mean streak. Put simply, Christian just comes off as that nice guy who can be cocky, but overall just seems like a pushover. Matt Hardy, on the other hand, can play off an intense role, that we require in World Heavyweight Champions. Take a listen to this promo:

    [YOUTUBE]iKF7AcYQH_w[/YOUTUBE]​

    Yeah, while Christian has some funny one liners, he's never proven to make me buy into an angle for more than two months. His feud with Edge in 2001 was starkly disappointing, mainly because of Christian. And he overall hasn't done much in wrestling to make me think he can carry his own in a feud. I personally feel that is because of a lack of intensity. Hardy has had intense feuds with Kane, Edge, MVP, Drew McIntyre, Jeff Hardy, and has made these feuds more interesting than for a month. Matt Hardy has proven over time that he can make people pay attention for more than 3 months. Christian? Yeah, abso-fucking lutely not
     
  4. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    I'm enjoying this Tents. Not sure sure how much effort I will be able to follow this up with but here goes.

    Christian is the superior worker and works well with anyone.

    How have I arrived at this conclusion. Simple fact is, he has the best match on most card, has done so with pretty much anyone in the company. Since his return, he has consistently been paired with those in need of a capable talent. From a green Swagger to an over-the-hill Dreamer to a misaligned Edge, Christian is so versatile that he is now longer seen as a gimmick expert. However when he is put in such a situation, he can be relied on and get entertaining matches; he got a career best match out of Kaz remember? He is exactly what you need as a face champion.

    Christian benefitted from his time away.

    Much like Umaga in Japan, Christian returned a better, more experienced worker. More versatile in his abilities and able to work both as a face and a heel, his experience showed upon his return. Hardy learnt how to work the Internet and now, he seems to prefer spending time on Twitter rather than working out. Not surprised really that he is not in great shape at the moment and is often not booked in matches.

    Christian is more reliable.

    It is this Christian which has the IWC clamouring for him to be given a chance. Matt Hardy has had his chance in high profile programmes against Kane and Edge and floundered. Jeff Hardy worked his ass off by getting over and got his rewards. The less talented Hardy doesn’t seem to be able to put in the same consistent effort.

    Christian deserves his chance in the main event.

    His match with Edge just after the Draft was great and gave everyone a sneak peek of what he could do with top calibre talent. His ECW title run was more successful than Hardy’s and proved he was deserving. He was “overlooked“ for the IC title shot but he put over Kingston in another great match. Christian didn’t need the IC title because he is on his way up.

    When, not if, he gets his shot then he will not let anyone down, he is proven to be Mr Consistency at any level, so why should the main event be any different. I would rather see Christian be the next first time champ over anybody in the company right now and Hardy doesn’t even come close.

    Maybe, except he hasn’t developed as a personality or as a worker. Hardy’s reigns were unspectacular at best. As ECW champ for example, he was nondescript and exactly the opposite of Christian who was a breath of fresh air in that spot and elevated a future World Champion in the process. I certainly don’t see the evidence that Christian is less relevant when Christian is comfortably in the upper midcard and Hardy is barely getting booked, desperately pandering to his fans on Twitter and being McIntyre’s bitch.

    I point to Christian’s ability to work as a heel both in TNA and WWE pre-2005, whereas Hardy flopped against Jeff in that spot more recently and it only elevaqted Jeff – he didn’t prosper because he couldn’t develop in the role or keep healthy to come out of it. While Version1 was a success, he wasn’t trusted to develop it into a higher spot on the card.

    And I’m pretty sure that you didn’t just say him going to TNA is what is holding him back. There’s no evidence to back that up .

    Well we aren’t talking about Christian in 2001 but he is now a much improved worker. His one match with Edge was much better than their 2001 which was better than you gave it credit for. His program with Jericho over Trish is a much better example of the kind of level he was reaching and he didn’t look out of place against Cena either.

    A face World Champion doesn’t need to be intense, Rey Rey proved that. He needs to have the support of the fans which Christian can do better than most. He is very underrated on the stick and can work as well as anyone.

    Hardy’s best feuds are like a who’s who of average-ness. Every feud you listed was average – the MVP thing was hampered by injuries to both, the Kane one was a gimmick special and McIntyre is treating him like a jobber onto better things, just like his brother did. With the exception of the Edge one which was carried by Edge who was on a Rated R roll at the time.

    Christian’s recent efforts have been somewhat less-high profile but he made Swagger look credible before Cena did it, he has put Ziggler over in defeat better than Rey did and he teased a future program with Edge which has people begging for more.

    All the intensity Hardy has, I would swop for Christian’s charisma and personality. And if it screamed World Champion, then it would have happened by now.
     
  5. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    A completely subjective opinion, and wrong at that. Let's see exactly why

    Do you have any proof of this? Any ratings which say such? There aren't any, at all.

    Well, see, you're theory would hold up, if every man you mentioned, Matt Hardy hadn't worked with in the last year, either. Matt was the one to put Swagger over, he worked with Dreamer as well as Edge, so this idea that Christian can work with anyone must apply yo Matt, as well. As a matter of fact, I'd agree that is absolutely the case.

    You're using a mathc five years ago, against a guy no one gives a shit about, to support your argument?

    Right. Look, Hardy and Christian are comparable in talent in the ring.

    I'm sorry, when gthe fuck has Christian worked as a heel since he's returned to the WWE? Right, he hasn't. If you're going to give subjective arguments, you might as well be check up to make sure Christian has worked as a heel. Hell, they had tpo put Jack Swagger into his match with Tommy Dreamer at Extreme Rules, because Christian wasn't playing the tweener role effectively enough.

    Here we go, "Fatt Hardy is Fatt! Lardy, Lardy, look at Matt Hardy, LULZ!"

    Look, if we're going to go with body issues, you may as well jusdt give up your sword now. Let's take a look at Christian's scrawny body.

    [​IMG]

    Is that the look of a world heavyweight champion? Absolutely not. Christian doesn't have a lick of muscular build to his frame, and is literally just bones and organs. One of the knocks on Rey Mysterio is his lack of believability with how small he is. Christian, to me, still suffers from that same complex. He looks likes a strong wind will blow him away, and frankly, it isn't a good look. Especially for a champion.


    Again, his feud with Kane was a lot better than you gave it credit for, one in which never saw it's conclusion because Hardy was given time off due to an injury, and the whole Edge fucking his girlfriend took place. The Edge feud was hot as shit, and was the feud that catapulted Edge to the main event position he's in now. Tell me this isn't a hot pop, man, really.

    [YOUTUBE]JMPCfu7nu8w[/YOUTUBE]​

    Yeah, your claims are complete shit. Hardy has put on great feuds to put over others, and has cemented Edge's position in the main event. Without that Hardy feud, Edge is still languishing as the mid card face no one gives a shit about



    How's he on his way up, man? At least Matt Hardy has had a storyline going for him in the last month. That's more than I can say for Christian, who's done fuck all for the last few months. Hardy only put over Swagger because the WWE was sure he was going to be a top heel in the company, man. That's the only reason he gave up the strap, and because Christian had no one to work with at all.



    And what about that isn't true about Hardy? Hardy put over Swagger, too, so it's not like he's missing that. That's all Christian's reign amounts to, really.

    Humorous, because really, the ratings for ECW would argue otherwise. Let's see exactly what they look like for Matt Hardy, while on ECW.

    September 9: 1.3
    - September 16: 1.2
    - September 23: 1.2
    - September 30: 1.2
    - October 7: 1.2
    - October 14: 1.1
    - October 21: 1.3
    - October 28: 1.2
    - November 4: 1.0
    - November 11: 1.1
    - November 18: 1.2
    - November 25: 1.3
    - December 2: 1.3
    - December 9: 1.2
    - December 16: 1.3
    - December 23: 1.2
    - December 30: 1.3
    - January 6: 1.4
    - January 13: 1.1

    Now then, let's look at the ratings with Captain Charisma leading the ship.

    April 28: 1.2
    - May 5: 1.2
    - May 12: 0.9
    - May 19: 1.1
    - May 26: 1.0
    - June 2: 1.1
    - June 9: 1.2
    - June 16: 1.1
    - June 23: 1.1
    - June 30: 1.1
    - July 7: 1.0
    - July 14: 1.3
    - July 21: 1.2
    - July 28: 1.3
    - August 4: 1.3
    - August 11: 1.1
    - August 18: 1.2
    - August 25: 1.2

    You know what that tells me, Numbers?

    A. More people watched during Matt Hardy's reign, which contradicts your blatant opinion.

    B. More people were consistently watching ECW under Matt Hardy's watch.

    Well, now that you've been proven wrong by numbers, please, do go on about how more people will watch Christian as Champion? You know, the guy who was the Champion on a ship that ultimately sunk.



    LULZ. Upper mid card? He's tag teaming with MVP and jobbing to everybody not named Vance Archer. Last time I saw Christian, he was involved in a horrific feud with Vance Archer and Curt Hawkins. Let's call a spade a spade; both Hardy and Christian are struggling to get on TV. Simple facts on both men. Just that Hardy has been more loyal, which makes him a better candidate.


    Or, they were beginning hios run with Kane, one of the most underrated feuds in the WWE at the time You can't just cancel out Matt Version 1.0, man, that's just pulling my new favorite meme. Wanna see what it looks like?

    [​IMG]


    You mean like there's no evidence of Christian being more of a draw than Matt Hardy? :rolleyes:

    Look, I have enough historical knowledge about how Vince McMahon operates. When you leave him, you're instantly seen as less of a credible star for him. Just ask Tony Atlas, Ricky Steamboat, Lex Luger, so forth. When you cross Vince McMahon, you will never been seen as the superstar Vince once created you as. It's just simple history. So don't tell me I don't have evidence. I have plenty of history that says you're wrong

    Actually, he really did, honestly. He was the one to take the fall, so really, he came off looking like the braggart way over his head. They performed, not even in the main event, in a match that everyone knew the ending. No way Christian wasn't taking that pin, man

    Right, again, people never really buy Rey Mysterio as a credible champion. Pretty much for the same reasons as Christian. Hell, one of our debates this week is if Rey was a deserving champion. Any time there's any debate to it, it has to mean he isn't deserving

    Which was caused by hbis feud with Hardy, man. Seriously, check your fucking facts. Part of what Edge, if not all, of what made him a heel to the fans was how he treated Matt backstage. Otherwise, he was trying to be pandered as a face, before the fans turned on him for what he did to Matt. Kane was in the midst of one of his monster pushes, which saw him get a shot at Benoit's WHC, and appear like a dominant monster in the ring. Drew is a young guy, and for the record, Matt won the blow off to that feud on the 3 Hour Viewer's Choice, in case you remember

    Right... Tell me, what did Jack Swagger do before cashing in his MITB?

    [YOUTUBE]M9rCDpeWNWA[/YOUTUBE]​

    Yeah... Christian did wonders making Jack Swagger look legitimate :rolleyes:

    If by begging you mean mildly indifferent, well sure you're right

    And if Christian was the God you claim, so would he. Look, for once, Numbers, be fucking honest. We're talking about guys who are pretty much the same, in place on the card, work rate, and fanhood. The only difference is that one guy has been loyal to the company, while the other has done dick all, and is massively overrated by the IWC. Typically, the more loyal worker is going to get the title run, and is more deserving. Such is the case with Matt Hardy, at least compared to Christian
     
  6. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Right... Look, Numbers, I'm tired of waiting for an aswer from you, man. I waited for a response, but it seems as though you're so worried about being a mod, you've forgotten that you have this DL to continue with. Yes, I get it, you've dropped out to focus on the Mod battle. News Flash, Numbers: Not only can a good mod legitimately drive discussion, which you do well, but they also keep up the rest of their regulat activities on this forum. Perhaps you're getting the brunt of a lot of anguish from seeing plenty of people devote more attention to this mod battle, and I apologize if this comes off as harsh. But I overall sense you have absolutely no desire to finish this debate, something I consider completely disrespectful. So if you don't mind, I'm going to go ahead and wrap this thing up.

    My Conclusion

    First and foremost, let's all call a spade a spade here. This entire debate centers around two wrestlers who have seen the best years of their career pass by them, and thus, have had much of their chances used up. Neither Matt Hardy nor Christian will be major players in the future of the WWE, and I, unlike Numbers, am not going to do anything to convince you otherwise. No, the task brought before me was to persuade you that Matt Hardy is more deserving of a World Title run than Christian. Let's be frank, we're dealing with two good workers, who are passed their prime. Christian and Matt Hardy have seen the better days come and pass, and now we're dealing with who was more deserving, because of their overall body of work, and loyalty to the company. There's really no distinguishing factor that separates these two men, except for one thing, and that is loyalty.

    But Tenta, Christian is a better worker

    Not really. Tell me one Christian moment that didn't involve Matt Hardy in the mix, as well. Christian's best work involves matches which Matt Hardy was a part of as well. Simply put, both men are good workers, who bring consistently good matches, and perform well enough to warrant the position they're in.

    But Tenta, Christian draws more

    No, he doesn't. I've rolled out the stats, to prove my point. Matt Hardy as an ECW champion was more of a consistent draw over time than Christian was, period. The numbers don't lie, and what the numbers say is that when Matt Hardy was running the ship, ECW drew in more viewers consistently. Christian has proven nothing as a draw, at least to warrant he's a more deserving champion than Matt Hardy.

    In short, these men are pretty much equals, as it pertains to credentials to be champion. Except, Matt Hardy was more loyal to Vince over a longer period of time. History has shown that a wrestler who stays with Vince, no matter what, will be rewarded with at least a fair shake with the title. Kane, Mankind, Tommy Dreamer, all have had runs with the title for no other reason than a Lifetime Achievement Award, a thanks from Vince for all his hard work and dedication to the business, and that he acknowledges and appreciates his work for the company. Perhaps if Christian had stayed on board with the WWE, he too would see this kind of victory lap, a thank you for his dedication to Vince. Instead, Christian left Vince when the time was it's most oppurtune for Christian, and left Vince in the midst of a push. That, to Vince, is a huge no-no, the likes of which you can't ignore. Matt Hardy has had just about every ill of professional wrestling shoved down his throat in his time with the WWE, and has still remained a loyal company man, who has always done as asked by Vince. Time has shown, the loyal worker, to Vince, is the more deserving. That is Matt Hardy.

    Hope this mod thing plays out for ya like you want. I'll be just fine taking part in both the Mod Competition and the DL. The world doesn't stop for me when a mod position is open
     
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  7. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    Tenta, I had a huge rant ready and written to counter your piss-fit but then I figured that shit isn’t really that important.

    To counter some of the points made.

    Matt Hardy is a better draw:

    I find ratings used in this context to be a subjective point. They are highly dependant on content, competition, matches and segments, not to mention the previous nights’ content that I don’t see the relevance here. We are not talking PPV numbers after all. I won’t go as far as saying they mean dick all, but it’s not far off.

    No distinguishing factors:
    [​IMG]

    Apart from Matt’s food baby, which must be due in about three months. Hardy cannot keep himself in shape or off the injured list. How can he be the better worker in this instance? Good workers keep themselves in shape yb having great matches. Christian has had great matches, often the highlight of the program during his ECW run. He elevated Swagger on ECW, the same Swagger who went to Raw, faced Cena and looked awesome. Dismiss the Santino match as bad Raw booking. Swagger never looked better than he did before that Cena match. It wasn’t Christian’s fault that Raw’s bookers couldn’t continue his momentum.

    Christian helped to elevate both Ziggler and Kingston before their current feud. The same feud that many of the posters here are commenting on as one of the highlights on SD! right now.

    Vince is holding him back:

    Opinion but as you called me out on mine…

    If Vince wa going to give these guys a shot, it would have happened by now. But it still could happen for Christian while he continues to stay fit and have good matches. Unlike Tenta, I do believe Christian will get his chance. He is good enough to be built as a credible threat, it gives opportunity for new and fresh feuds and intriguing combinations. If built suitably, it could be successful.

    Until then, both men will suffer under-utilisation in the mid card and be used to put over the newest flavour of the month.

    There are no memes, no Youtube videos, no insulting and pointless flab within this debate. Cut through the shit and you will realize that Tent’s debate is founded on thin ground. Unlike him, I do believe Christian could and should be given the chance at a main event level. I firmly believe Captain Charisma is good enough to World champion one day and much sooner than Matt Hardy.
     
  8. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Draw
    I felt both men kept the subject strongly, they made their cases, countered their opposites and closed nicely.

    Punctuality: Tenta
    Numbers was busy and Tenta made a conlcusion before the last reply, so giving it to him here.

    Informative: Tenta
    Tenta didn't hold back with using information and youtube videos to assist his cause.

    Persuasion: Numbers
    That being said, after reading the debate a couple of times, I just kept feeling that Christian is the one who deserves the belt. This is nothing against Tenta's debate, he put out a superb job but I still keep coming back to feeling Chrisitan deserves it and Numbers kept it there despite how much of a strong opposition Tenta is.

    Final Score
    Numbers: 2.5
    Tenta: 2.5
     
  9. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Well thought out posts, neither drifted off.

    Point: Split

    Punctuality: Numbers was late and Tenta took initiative.

    Point: Tenta

    Informative: His use of videos was definitely a plus, and his television ratings help him with this point.

    Point: Tenta

    Persuasion: I'm with Phoenix on this one. I started out on the Christian side of this, and Tenta was trying his damndest to pull me to the Hardy side. His strong arguments aside, it didn't do pull me over to his side, or even to consider Hardy. I just can't see it.

    Points: Numbers

    CH David scores this Tenta 2.5, Numbers 2.5
     
  10. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of debate: Tenta
    Make sure to keep the opening post and opening rebuttal separate, Numbers.

    Punctuality: Tenta
    What Phoenix said.

    Informative: Tenta
    What everyone else has said.

    Persuasion: Numbers
    You had a tough side to argue, Tenta. Against an opponent less able than Numbers, you would have won the points here. Unfortunately, Numbers knew what he was doing, and I have to side with him: Christian does deserve a heavyweight title more than Matt Hardy.

    Final Score
    Numbers: 2
    Tenta: 3
     
  11. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Clarity of debate: Draw
    Punctuality: Tenta
    Informative: Tenta
    Persuasion: Numbers

    Final Score
    Numbers: 2.5
    Tenta: 2.5
     
  12. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, Tenta is the victor with 10.5 points to Numbers's 9.5.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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