Round 7: Numbers -vs- jmt225

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by Phoenix, Sep 12, 2010.

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  1. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Which wrestler is the better asset to the Professional Wrestling World, Randy Orton or Terry Funk?

    This is a seventh round match in the Debater's League. Numbers is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    A random combination to compare for sure. But I'd have to go with Funk. I'd like JMT to go first.
     
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  3. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Terry Funk is perhaps the most notorious hardcore wrestler of all time. He's done spots at the age of 60 that wrestlers at the age of 25 shouldn't try doing. He's also notorious for the "crazy" stories behind the scenes, and for his numerous retirements. He's basically the poster child for the "out of control" wrestler and the wrestler who doesn't know when to quit.

    Terry Funk was a tremendous wrestler, no doubt, but he was also a very dangerous one. He's injured himself, and his opponents numerous times throughout his career. For example, he once picked up a steel railing from the crowd and suplexed it on what he intended to be the back on Stevie Richards. The problem was, instead of it landing on Stevie's back, it landed on the back of his neck instead, which would plague pretty much the rest of Stevie Richards career, considering he had to get numerous surgeries to fix the injury he withstood with that spot.

    The fact of the matter is, when you wrestle the style Terry Funk is notorious for, bad things will happen. How exactly is that a good asset to the business?

    Another point I'd like to bring up is that Terry Funk could not grasp that pro wrestling was entertainment. He didn't know how to blur the line between real and fake, and because of this... the guy caused numerous riots throughout his career, which put both himself and his opponents lives in jeopardy. Today we look back and laugh at that stuff, but the fact is, people could have been hurt, and even killed. Terry Funk himself once got stabbed by a fan during a riot. STABBED. Again I ask, how is that being a great asset to the business, especially when you're not drawing big numbers to begin with?

    Now, with Randy Orton, it's still early on in his career, but thus far he's easily proven himself to be a great asset to WWE and the business as a whole.

    Orton can simply work any style. His hardcore match at Backlash 2004 was easily was one, if not THE, greatest hardcore matches in WWE during the ast decade. But Orton can of course do more than just have hardcore matches, which he has shown with instance classics against guys like Benoit, The Undertaker, Edge, Cena, etc. Orton brings out the best in every wrestler he faces.

    When he became a part of the faction, Evolution, back in 2003, it was unquestionable that Orton was the brightest up-and-coming star in the business. And it was while in Evolution he was able to have, in my opinion, one of the best feuds from the last decade between himself and Mick Foley. He also had one of the coolest gimmicks in dubbing himself "The Legend Killer." Everything he did during this point people bought into, and he actually brought interests back to the mid-card, something WWE was having a lot of trouble doing at the time, and what now they're having a lot of trouble doing again.

    And since then Orton has been one of the most consistent wrestlers in WWE, whether face or heel. The fact of the matter is, without Orton, WWE would have been absolute trash for the most part these past few years. WWE knows they can count on Randy Orton if they need a quick fix to something. Whether it's him filling in a best of seven series when a wrestler gets injured (for instance Benoit vs. Booker T when Booker got injured and was no longer able to compete), to bringing the best out of The Undertaker after you've thought there was nothing left for the Undertaker to do, to giving Jeff Hardy the best feud he's ever had to that point, and to always being reliable to keep WWE fans interest in the product, even when in rehashed feuds against guys like HHH Cena, Jericho, Edge, ect.

    Right now Orton is currently in the process of bringing the 'tweener' back to WWE and because of this, he's gotten the best crowd reactions the last couple of months. He's easily the most over wrestler currently on the "A" program, and because of this he couldn't be a bigger asset to WWE. When was Terry Funk ever this important to one company?
     
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  4. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    Terry Funk is one of the best ever, a true legend. He was at the top of the business at its peak in both the 1970’s & 1980’s having wrestled hundreds of matches all over the world. Not content with that, he would revitalise his career, becoming a hardcore legend in both Japan and the US. By doing things in his fifties, that no wrestler should consider doing, he put over ECW and in earnest, played a hugely significant part in the Monday Nights Wars.

    His influence can be directly traced to modern day wrestling through his work with his opponents, Harley Race, Ric Flair to Mick Foley, through to HHH and Randy Orton. He remains relevance through his in-ring style. He was very underrated technically as he was able to match many of his opponents hold for hold. But he is of course lauded for his “hardcore” run, which began in earnest in the late 80’s through to his second WWF run and then in ECW and put Mick Foley over as his successor along the way in Japanese gimmick matches. He would simply be known as tough as nails, crazy old guy who didn’t know when to quit.

    Then there was his promo style, with his harsh, grainy Texas accent, he could be very softly spoken and have a crowd in the palm of his hand or he could incite riots such was his way with words.

    He would go on to have classic matches, when gimmicks were truly meant to be feud-ending and career-defining. His I Quit match in 89 with Flair showed how good he could be at a main event level. Alongside a talent on his level, they tore the house down and while it pales to some of the bloodier matches later in his career, it truly set a standard to inflicting violence. This is the match that shows that Terry Funk should be just remembered for his extreme run.

    He would feature matches that would define the early Attitude era WWF when he featured at Wrestlemania in a Dumpster match with Foley against the Outlaws and then against Foley in a Falls Count Anywhere match. And this was after his run in Japan and ECW where he would more regularly feature in the bloody matches that he would become known for.

    Paul Heyman credited Funk for his influence in putting ECW on the map. His performances were incredible. At a time where no one was expecting anything on him, he would perform at a level that men fifteen years younger than him would struggle with. By putting over the names that would form ECW after his time, he proved to be an asset that money could not buy. And while ECW ultimately failed, his impact there could not be refuted.

    Funk would do this everywhere for the entirety of his career. For all his efforts, it will be a crime if he isn’t credited with having the most lasting impact on the business.

    I would agree to a point. He and Flair should have quit years before.

    It’s a dangerous business and it’s something that have happened to anybody at any time. Everyone has been injured at some point. It’s part of the business, part of the risk involved.

    Not suggesting that Funk was not at fault it could have happened to anyone. Flair survived Funk. As did Foley (maybe not a good comparison) but there are many guys who emerged healthily from their matches with Funk.

    I can’t be certain without the stats but I’m sure Funk drew plenty during his run as NWA champ.

    But the point about the riots, it happens with every great heel. The Dudleys did it regularly. Of course, being stabbed is a bit far but if he got that much heat, isn’t that all part of being a great character. And Funk was certainly great at that.

    A good asset, he has proven to be loyal when all around him have left the business to do other things.

    That match was awesome. It is no doubt that it was Foley’s best effort when it comes to putting talent over. The right talent at the right time, after a great storyline.

    I would question the instant classics though. Sure he is capable of having *** star matches but every WWE main eventer should be.

    When opposite a super talented worker like Benoit, Undertaker, Michaels, he can be part of a great match. But his series with HHH and Cena were overbooked and repetitive. And I don’t place any blame him at all; it’s the writers who can’t come up with better.

    Funk has had two ***** matches that I know of.

    Absolutely. It’s poor booking. He was ideal to bring credibility back to the midcard. But like with all good things with potential, they rushed the Evolution split, his WHC run and face turn. It was handled appallingly. Orton can take no blame there and he deserves credit for being so loyal. Of course, the program with Taker helped him back to where he was but he shouldn’t have been booked to lose that momentum in the first place.

    He has not been given a true, consistent run as a face. I would love to see WWE pull the trigger but I’m not sure that the higher-ups trust him. Whether that’s because of his antics a few years back or because someone in Vince’s ear recognise his potential as a threat to their spot, I don’t know. But due to injuries and what not, he has never really been given the shot.

    Even as a heel, he was never the number one guy.

    His reactions are currently epic, especially as he is getting little promo time and is getting the pop from posing and the RKO. If WWE actually committed to a title run with the guy then Christ knows what could happen.

    They had pulled the trigger with Cena by this point. The question I am asking is why do they not trust him over someone like Sheamus?

    ECW. You could argue that the NWA valued him for his work too. And he was highly regarded in Japan too.

    I would argue that Orton has not fully shown how good he can be. WWE may not realise how important he is until he leaves. If he leaves at all.
     
  5. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Yeah, but did he ever really draw, Numbers? I mean, sure... he had a long run with the NWA Championship, but what exactly did he do with the belt, Numbers?

    The fact of the matter is, the only reason Funk is so highly regarded today is because of the I Quit match with Flair, and for his run in ECW and Japan. If he didn't have those things going for him, he would be as remembered as Tommy Rich and Ronnie Garvin are.

    He had no other choice. The only way he could separate himself was to become this brutal maniac who put himself and his opponents in complete danger every time they stepped in the ring.

    Exactly.

    He helped ECW, sure, and he was a valuable asset to that company, but people do overstate how valuable he was. But, I'll get more into that in a minute.

    How so? By playing Chainsaw Charlie?

    This is extremely false, man.

    The ONLY "technical" hold the Funker is known for is the Spinning Toe Hold. That is literally it. Besides that one move, when have you ever seen him use technical holds that weren't basic stuff anybody could pull of? Please provide examples.

    Which, as I said in my opening post, isn't necessarily a good thing, is it?

    Funk was undoubtedly a great promo cutter during his time, but he still couldn't use it to the point where it was such a great asset for a company to have.

    Literally the only truly great match Funk has ever had. Orton, while you could argue none of his matches are THAT great, still has had PLENTY of GREAT matches throughout his career regardless.

    It's just one match though, Numbers. What other matches in Funk's career can you considered great besides that one and maybe the tag match between the Funks and Bruiser Brody & Stan Hansen?

    The fact is, if you put together a DVD of Orton's best matches, and you put together a DVD of Funk's greatest matches... while Flair vs. Funk is probably the best match, Orton still ends up with way more better matches overall on his DVD.

    That Dumpster match is a fun spot fest, but you can hardly give Funk any credit for it. The match involved four people, plus an insane amount of weapons... hardly anything worth bragging about.

    As a big ECW fan, I can say with confidence that the majority of Funk's matches there were shit, especially the one-on-one matches. Case and point, check out this match against Chris Candido while Funk was ECW Champion. It's boring as shit, and the only thing that saved it from being a complete disaster was a brutal chair spot.

    [YOUTUBE]UoiD-qBfZdw[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]JOLps8yUcPk[/YOUTUBE]

    That's Paul being really modest. Everyone knows that if it wasn't for Paul Heyman's booking, then ECW would have gone under by the end of 1993. ECW needed Heyman way more than they needed Funk.

    They really weren't though, man.

    Funk in ECW is remembered for three matches:

    The highly boring, OVERRATED triple threat match between himself, Douglas, and Sabu.

    Winning the ECW Championship at Barely Legal.

    And the Barbed Wire Match against Sabu.

    Outside of that, what exactly was memorable about Funk's stay in ECW?

    Very true, but the risk of injury HIGHLY goes up when your involved in the matches Funk was involved in.

    Again, very true, but it's still not a great asset to have when the only thing the guy can do is have matches with hardcore spots. That's all he could do throughout the majority of his career.

    He drew alright, not terribly, but then again... nothing impressive, either.

    Yeah, but how many heels have you heard about getting stabbed because they took it too far?

    That's a big misconception. But, I won't go there since this isn't about The Dudleys. I'll just stick to this point... did either Dudley ever get stabbed because of something they got a crowd so riled up over?

    Yeah, I agree, but sometimes you must know your limits, and Funk could never grasp that.

    Well, if that's the case... why did he abandon ECW to go to the WWF during the late nineties?

    Which is why WWE main eventers are great assets to that company, but I would argue Orton is more so since his body of work destroys that of his competition.

    Takes two to have a great match, man, especially when it happens on more than one occasion.

    Is that Orton's fault? No, I'm sure if Funk and Flair were constantly booked against one another they would have had some stinkers to go along with the I Quit match.

    One was a tag match, and a pretty overrated one at that. It wasn't really a wrestling match... just a huge, bloody brawl, and the only reason it got five stars was because it took place in Japan.

    And how many people have seen this match, anyway? Have you? Shit, I would have never saw it or heard about it if it weren't for the internet, and I was a fan of wrestling for pretty much 15 years before I ever got a computer of my own.

    And yet, even with all that against him, Orton has still been able to make it work and become one of, if not THE, most over wrestlers in the entire company. Do you not see why that makes him such a valuable asset?

    Again, like I said earlier... there's no telling what the future will bring Orton, but we all know he's going to be a huge star.

    And if you ask yourself this question, "Who would you rather start your company around, the Randy Orton of today or a prime Terry Funk?" I guarantee you and most wrestling fans would choose Randy Orton.

    That's not true. He was easily the number one guy when feuding with Hardy. And right now I would argue he's the number one guy. Last week he was in the main event, RKO's the champion and pretty much every contender for the title, and this week he defeated John Cena. Raw is building itself around Randy Orton right now. There's no arguing that.

    I agree.

    Because they know Orton doesn't need the belt, Sheamus does. It gives Sheamus heat to have that belt, whereas Orton can get heat without it.

    Thank you for bringing that up, because it another great point on just how much of a valued asset Orton is to the company.

    But he really wasn't that important to ECW, man. ECW needed Paul Heyman way more than they ever did Funk, as I said earlier, and when Heyman came along, he built ECW around talent like Public Enemy, Shane Douglas, and Sabu. Funk was just a big name for him to use to put younger talent over... but there's no doubt that he could have made it work without Funk there.

    Nah, his championship run meant dog shit to the NWA. Harely Race could have had the belt all throughout that time and it wouldn't have made a single bit of difference.

    Again though... Japan would have done just fine had Terry Funk never existed.

    But if that's true, then there's absolutely no telling just how great of a wrestler he'll become, considering how great of a run he's already had for himself in WWE.
     
  6. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    I didn't want this to become a sentence by sentence debate :D

    I can't be sure but I'd be fairly confident that he worked the same amount as Race and Flair as a journeyman champ.

    You know that's not true. Those guys are awful.

    He was a fantastic character. He was playing the Austin like character before Austin knew what he was doing. And did he hurt anyone as seriously as he did Richards?

    And being crazy doesn't mean you are guaranteed to hurt guys. Owen Hart broke Austin's neck remember.

    My point was that he is noted a big part of ECW's legacy by the mastermind of that company.

    My point was that in putting over Foley in ECW and WWE, he helped legitimise one of the main stars of the Attitude Era.

    I said he could work hold for hold and was not dominated. Brisco, Flair, his brother, all apparently superior technical guys and Funk went hold for hold with them all.

    He did it plenty but this one is a stand out.

    [YOUTUBE]cFfNWJaSTwU[/YOUTUBE]

    Funk was crucial to Dreamer's career.

    Name them because I can think of only a couple that can stand up. I think your harsh on your assessment of the triple threat, given the talent involved it was OK. He isn't a miracle worker (sorry, I dont rate either Douglas or Sabu).

    Personally I enjoyed his ECW stuff for what they were - you can't expect the earth. Foley's last match was a fun brawl. His match with Bret Hart is very good also. I think we can agree he has had plenty of good matches, at a time when few thought he could have good encounters. And I am sure that if you put him in with any reasonable talent, like his brother or Race or Flair or Foley, then you will get a good match out of it.

    I felt it was worthy. He was involved so of course he deserves credit.

    Orton has had his share of stinkers and on a bigger stage. The main event of WM25 against HHH, HIAC vs Cena last year.

    Paul E does modest? :)

    Eastern Champonship Wrestling stayed afloat thanks to Heyman.
    Extreme Championship Wrestling became famous/infamous in no small part to Funk's contribution.

    Like I said, I first came across him in Foley's last match. He did of selfless work in his time there.

    Compared to some of the workers who were known for being stiff. Vader? Goldberg? Both of whom who have caused much more serious injuries. Goldbergs can be attributed to inexperience but Vader? A much more talented worker. Similarly tough, just as dangerous.

    You could say the same for Mick Foley and most of the ECW roster.

    The fan took it too far. You can't blame Funk for playing his character so well. Did he really cause it? I doubt it.


    Like I said, he was a great heel. Orton only got close to that kind of heat when he punted Vince. Funk did it on a regular basis. If he wasnt successful with it then he wouldn't have been at it for so long.

    Everyone did it. So it is more than likely he didn't get paid. He saw his last opportunity on a big stage and seized it with true success.

    WWE main eventers are less valuable than they were in Funk's era. That's what no competition and two World titles will do.

    A great match is a subjective opinion.

    Everyone has had stinkers. You pointed out one for Funk against Candido. I would repeat my point about Orton & HHH at Mania. A horrific match for a Wrestlemania.

    That last point is reaching a little. Funk excelled at brawls. Orton doesn't have something that he specialises in. He is just OK at most things.

    I'm trusting research. Hansen and Brody were talented guys, perfectly suited to work with the Funks.

    It took a long and well booked feud with Taker for him to regain his momentum. He should not have lost the position to begin with had WWE booked the feud correctly to begin with.

    I hope so. It hasn't happened already. The business needs a believeable figurehead because Cena can't do it.

    The same wrestling fans that would vote Orton over Funk in the WZ Tourney. Where you voted Funk.

    Between the two, it's currently Funk.

    I'd argue that in 2008, Cena won the Rumble and instantly became the number one guy again, supplanting Orton immediately.

    Any heat Orton had in that great story in the build up to 2008 was destroyed by the match with HHH.

    If he is a valued asset without it, why have they not shown a sign of giving him a run with the belt? WWE normally doesn't hesitate.

    Thanks for bringing that up. Funk put a lot of people over in ECW. Orton has done exactly the same this year with Swagger and Sheamus.

    Dog shit? So what does that make Garvin or Rich then?

    And if it was as insignificant as you say then they would have given him a 14 week reign, not 14 month.

    Funk was accepted as a gaijin in a way that few ever were. His rep over there is significant.

    I dont think his run has been fantastic outside a few highlights and I hope that he evolves into this fantastic character. All the signs are there, but at this point, over a legendarily tough mo'fo like Funk, who in one career turn, gave his career a second wind, I don't see it.

    Not yet anyway.
     
  7. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    But did anything memorable happen while Terry Funk was champion?

    Tommy Rich vs. Buzz Sawyer is one of the greatest feuds of all time, and Ronnie Garvin had some fantastic matches in his day. They just didn't wrestle predominately in the nineties, which is why they aren't remembered like Funk is, which was my point.

    Again, if this were true, his territory days would be more memorable. Instead, for most fans Funk's career started with the Flair "I Quit" match.

    Not as serious as that, no, but I'm sure plenty of people have been hurt working with Funk due to his stiff style. I've heard plenty of wrestlers say Funk throws the hardest punches in pro wrestling.

    That was Austin's fault though, wasn't it? He was supposed to protect himself, whereas Stevie laid there defenseless.

    I know that's your point, but I'm saying he wasn't as valuable to ECW as most believe him to be, or as valuable as Orton has been to WWE these past few years.

    No, he didn't. Foley legitimized himself with his matches in WCW against guys like Vader and the Nasty Boys, and in the WWF as Mankind. Him and Funk are just notorious for their brutal matches in Japan, but it didn't "help" Foley at all.

    Watch those matches again, Numbers. No he didn't. Funk was a brawler through and through. He didn't go "holds to holds" with anyone.

    And of course he wasn't dominated; it's a scripted match where Funk is supposed to look good, so of course he's going to be given spots throughout the match where he is in control.

    No he was not. That was part of a storyline, not legitimate.

    vs. Rob Van Dam @ Armageddon 2003
    vs. Cactus Jack @ Backlash 2004
    vs. Edge @ Vengeance 2004
    vs. Chris Benoit @ Summerslam 2004
    vs. Chris Benoit @ the Raw after Summerslam
    vs. Ric Flair @ Taboo Tuesday 2004
    vs. The Undertaker @ Wrestlemania 21
    vs. The Undertaker @ Summerslam 2005
    vs. The Undertaker @ Armageddon 2005
    vs. Chris Benoit @ a January edition on Smackdown in a No Holds Barred Match
    vs. John Cena @ Summerslam 2007
    vs. HHH @ No Mercy 2007
    vs. John Cena @ Bragging Rights 2009

    Off the top of my head, there you go. All these matches range from very good to great, and this is not including tag matches, triple threats, elimination chambers, etc.

    Sorry, but the match sucked, man. End of story. It was an hour of just boring nonsense.

     
  8. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    Did anything memorable happen while anyone was champion until the mid to late 80’s? The NWA went from strength to strength following his reign.

    I had never heard of Rich until I came on here and I will look up Buzz Sawyer because I really have not heard of him.

    I would guess the vast majority of Funk’s matches took place before the 90’s. So this point is really moot. Maybe not moot but he had plenty of decent matches and must have been a name of some value to get that spot.

    Isn’t this just a slight on the memory of most wrestling fans? His territory days are plenty memorable because he raised plenty of hell during his time.

    I’ve heard the same about Vader.

    How is Austin to blame for this? That was ALL Owen’s fault and I know you know that too. If Austin was sat too low, Hart when delivering the move, should have adjusted himself.

    Plenty have said how influential he was. Again, I know that you know that to dismiss his role there is to do a disservice to his rep he forged in the second part of his career. Orton has been valuable but is he above HHH? Or Cena?

    Vince McMahon’s mindset means Foley’s achievements in WCW and Japan would have been almost entirely dismissed. His work in ECW would have played a big part in getting Foley in that position. If Foley and Funk were notorious for brawls, then Vince was happy to exploit it for his own product.

    Again, I’m saying through his career, he was never dominated by anyone. Even those who are more technically sound.

    I know you are a big fan of his so I know you are capable of naming plenty of matches that would stand up. There are plenty out there. You don't become an NWA world champion without putting on good matches

    The problem with the HIAC bout was that it was a decent match that didn’t use the gimmick to its full capabilites.

    Having a guy with that much experience and credibility was a big boost to the company. Young guys loved working with a guy like him.


    I didn't finish that sentence properly. My point was supposed to be that they were of similar reputation for toughness and being dangerous in the ring, but they would more regularly hurt their opponents.

    You name the Mind Games match, one of my faves and a classic without a doubt. But for every great worker there, there was a garbage guy who couldn't work for shit and a brawler. ECW needed brawlers otherwise the hardcore aspect was pointless.

    But did he care? He was still toughest SOB around, he was probably at work the next day. :D


    But he was booked all over the place, so he must have been popular.


    Wherever he went, he was an asset. He had the credibility to win over the most popular face and lose while being strong, which is a remarkable talent. Orton has it but he has suffered many tiimes from jobbing to the same names with the belt on the line (not his fault I know.)

    While he is over now, it is because he is being presented differently. We are not seeing the headlock-using heel who gets beat in title matches every month. He is being used opposite new faces, the fans recognise this and this plays a big part in his reactions.

    I am a big fan of that Taker match at Mania, love the ending to that.


    HHH has done very little for his career.

    But when Funk is as good as he was, it's hard to deny his value in that role.

    I'm certain of the fact, because of their reliance on Super Cena.

    Except Swagger was a poor champion and Sheamus is struggling still.

    Isn't that more credit to Race and Flair who excelled in the role.

    Except Race had been champ in the 70's, so why would they need to groom him for his second run. He was already a vastly capable worker at this point.

    Names like these deserve much more credit than what they get.


    And he got that belt, that push to the main event level far too early because WWE couldn't resist pulling the trigger time and time again.

    Funk got the belt when he was ready, not when bookers changed their whim. Winning the NWA title at the time was an amazing achievement, 31 was a good age, he had at least ten years experience at that point. When he had his career match, the Flair I Quit, he was a more than capable worker. If he wasn't then I doubt Flair would have allowed him to choke him with that plastic bag. Surely that shows the difference between playing crazy mother fucker and a capable worker, playing his character to the extreme

    He got it at the right time. Orton could have been riding this wave of success a lot sooner. I dont blame him fully, of course he could have shown more mature behaviour in 2007, that cost him a lot.
     
  9. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Exactly, which shows how insignificance that title was during Funk's reign.

    The fact is, that title didn't become worth a damn after the Lou Thesz era until the early eighties. And you can't blame it on the times, because there are numerous memorable matches and runs with the WWWF Title during the 60's and 70's.

    Then trust me... the odds of you hearing about Terry Funk without the "I Quit" match and his run in the nineties are very low, especially when you never heard of those two.

    But which one's are memorable that aren't on Dave Metlzer's five star ranking?

    Then how come we don't hear more about it?

    Austin will tell you himself that he didn't protect himself properly. Is Owen at fault too? Sure, but it could have been prevented if Austin knew how to take the move, which he didn't. I've seen Owen and others deliver that exact move in the exact same fashion without the guy getting hurt.

    Right now? Yes, he is, because he's the most over wrestler on the roster. It's that simple.

    Then how come Vince didn't give Funk a more predominate role in his company, in the nineties or in the eighties when he had Funk signed?

    I may or may not, but it's your job in this debate to show what made Funk a valuable asset, not mine. ;)

    But that was because EVERY match that night was a Hell in a Cell bout, and since Orton vs. Cena was a mid-card match, building to a much bigger, more meaningful match a month later, they didn't go all out for this match, which was completely understandable.

    I agree, but I'm just saying... it's a false statement to attribute him as the reason ECW was a success, when that certainly is not the case.

    So you're saying Funk is in the category of the garbage guys with this statement, right?

    And that's the problem; he should care. Had he died that night, there's no telling how much the business as a whole would have been affected.

    Sure he was popular, but his drawing numbers are still nothing to write home about.

    That's not true. WCW treated him like shit when they had him in the late nineties after he left the WWF. And the WWF treated him like shit when they had him in the mid-eighties.

    Even when Orton was playing that headlock-using heel he was still over as shit. Again, that speaks of his talent to make people care about him.

    I agree with you, but how important is it for a company to have an asset like that? Certainly not as important to have an asset like Orton, who has much more to offer.

    Which has now basically become Super Orton. These past few weeks prove that, man.

    I agree, but they need other stars in the company, and the best way to make a star is to put an important title around their waist. Orton has been talented enough throughout his career though where he didn't need a title to be a star.

    Sure, you can say that, but what does that say about the people who held the belt before them that they couldn't bring such popularity and prestige to it like Race and Flair could?

    Race only had one run before Funk, and after that he had 7... they gave him that one run to prepare him for the future. They did the exact same thing with Dusty Rhodes a couple of years later.

    No, it wasn't too early. Orton's matches with Foley, Edge, and Benoit by this point proves it wasn't too early.

    What hurt Orton was HHH burying him a month after he won the title, not that he won the title too early.

    But Randy Orton was ready for the belt as I just explained, man. It wasn't his fault that WWE booked him as a shit face, and that HHH constantly buried him after he beat Benoit. Orton could have easily taken that belt and the "A" show and run with it, even at the young age of 24. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind about that.

    That's a fair point, and I'm not saying Funk ever purposely hurt someone, but that doesn't make him any less of a dangerous worker to work with, and much more dangerous than working with someone like Orton.
     
  10. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    This will be my final rebuttal as I always struggle to get a final post due to the deadline time being a little awkward over here.

    So you are trying to discredit Brisco and Race (1st run) and all the other champions in the 80's, because they weren't getting the exposure that Sammartino was?

    The fact remains that Funk has a successful 14 month run. The length of time was matched by only a few ever. Since Thesz's last reign, only Flair bested Funk's reign.

    Didn't know much about him until I read Foley's first book. The guy is absolutely effusive in his praise for their work in Japan and ECW. While we know now that Foley didnt need Funk after WCW, Foley credited Funk hugely after WCW nearly ruined his career.

    Me too, but the footage is clear. Austin's head was too. The best workers have been guilty of hurting their opponents. Benoit and Hart are two of the best. Aside from Richards Funk has not made a career of going around hurting people and wrecking their careers.

    Until HHH gets back

    Funk got a match on the WM2 card in a match that got more exposure than any other in his career to that point. And the Outlaws feud was full of great intense matches.

    Given that Funk did not fit Vince's bodybuilder type guy, he got plenty of exposure.

    I know, but the fact that I can't recall many of his early matches is irrelevant. He had plenty of great matches.

    What made him such an asset was that he was a tough SOB, not afraid of doing anything, would do anything a promoter asked of him. Vince has plenty of guys like that. Cena, HHH, Taker, Kane, Orton is not unique.

    Wrong. Only three matches were inside the HIaC. They didn't go all out because of poor booking. Only one match that truly was deserving of being called a HIAC match, but Punk vs Taker and Orton vs Cena could have been cage matches as the cell wasn't used fully.

    PG era sucks

    Not the reason, but one of a few.

    Not at all. I'm referring to him as a brawler. One of the best.

    He got stabbed twice actually. And he cared plenty. He said in his autobiography that he saw the attacks as a reward, an honor, that he had done a great job as a heel.

    I know what you are saying but he accepted it as part of his job. He was booked to be a heel, the invader of a babyface's territory. He was supposed to draw heat and he acknowledges that by being attacked, he did his job.

    It's an old-school point of view but you can appreciate what he is saying.

    Orton's drawing ability isn't anything to shout about either. With Orton as the number one guy (according to you) the PPV buys are poor and have been since before Mania. It's difficult to compare but I doubt he did could even match Funk.

    Then can you blame him for being "disloyal". The kind of guy that he is means he knew he could get work easily elsewhere and that he didnt have to put up with the crap.

    Was he though? He wasn't getting the heat and he was often being booed instead of cheered.

    Funk is unique as a character. Orton's current tweener thing is playing off the kind of things Austin was doing more better and more successfully in the 90's

    Super Cena is totally different to Randy Orton at the moment. Randy is being booked on Raw as the last guy standing, a role deserving given that he is being booked as a heavily favoured guy going into PPV's. Fans are rightly eating it up.

    Super Cena is not a compliment.

    He didnt need the world title at that point. The IC title was plenty for him but WWE sped up the push to the World title, the Evolution split. It hurt that character massively. We didnt know Orton could be a star without a title until the Taker feud. That was when we knew he could be a potentially great heel.

    But what I meant was that Funk didn't need (or maybe even want) the belt back afterwards. Race and Flair (from what you are saying) needed it.


    But Rhodes got his runs in a short space of time. Race had ten years. His first reign was 57 days, his subsequent runs were mixed. He had a couple extremely long ones and a few that were barely significant.

    Orton's reigns have almost always come off as transitional, like he was warming the seat.His first was like that, his most recent was too.

    Because he felt threatened most likely. Yeah he had great matches with three great performers, performers who should be able to work well with a young talent. What I am saying is that if WWE wanted to run him with the title, then beating HHH and holding off Evolution could have worked or at least switch the storyline around. They couldn't resist turning him face, which he couldn't yet do and most likely didn't want to do (given that he was so obnoxious at the time.)

    He may have been ready for the belt but not the face turn and not the HHH problems that came with it. Thus he wasn't ready.

    But he didnt hurt people often enough to warrant this as a point in the argument.
     
  11. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Fair enough.

    Also, let me say I deeply respect the fact that you've held up this debate, while also contributing to the NXT Mod Contest. Trust me when I say I will not let it go unnoticed.

    First of all, not 80's, but late 60's/70's. But anyway, they were getting as much exposure as Sammartino was... but yet none of those runs are renowned or respected as Sammartino's run. Why is that? Because they didn't do anything special. If they had... then it would be more documented.

    But it doesn't mean much when nobody remembers anything from that run.

    Well, if you want to give Funk credit for helping Foley get his passion for the sport back, then that's fine. But I feel it's a huge overstatement to attribute any of Foley's success to Terry Funk. Nothing they did together or against each other ever help Foley's career.

    Which speaks highly of Funk's exposure throughout the majority of his career. Think about this... when you say his most exposed match ever is a tag match nobody cared about against The Junkyard Dog and Tito Santana, doesn't that make him seem like dog shit?

    They had one fun match, but that was literally it.

    That is absolutely false, Numbers. Funk didn't do anything there. Sure he got exposure, but everyone did who got air time. But Funk did absolutely nothing worth noting during his first run in the WWF. If Vince was so into him as you seem to think, then Funk would have been used a lot more than he was.

    If you can't name them, then they don't exist. ;)

    And Orton has shown himself to be the same way, so that cancels that fact out and leaves us with everything I mentioned in Orton's advantage.

    My bad, I thought every match was, but still... 3 matches is 3 matches. My point remains nonetheless; if Cena/Orton was the sole HITC match that night, or the main event, then you'd have a point. But it wasn't, so it's not right to criticize the match, especially when a month later they would tear the house down in a one hour Iron Man match.

    Yeah, which speaks of his intelligence, and only helps my point that the guy didn't know when to stop. The fact of the matter is, Funk was a liability, and I don't know how someone who is such a liability can also be considered a great asset to the business.

    Yeah, but guys can do that, get as much heat, and still not put their lives in danger. That's the difference.

    Orton as the number 1 guy lately, as in the past month or so. There's no way you can attribute WWE's piss poor numbers to Orton.

    And even if you did, he still drew more than Funk ever did in the states.

    No, I can't, but at the same time, I cannot call him loyal like you falsely did.

    Numbers, that's the point of being a heel. There's no way you can fault him for that; he did his job.

    How is being a Texas redneck being unique? You don't think there were characters like Funk before he came along? Of course there were.

    And you could say Austin stole from The Sandman and Taz, so there's no point to be had either in saying Orton is playing off the kind of things Austin did, because Austin was guilty of that himself.

    I agree he didn't need the title, but at the same time... I do believe he could have made it work, if given a true chance with it, but he wasn't, which is why it's unfair for you to discredit his first championship win.

    Funk didn't need it because he was completely irrelevant after he lost it until the "I Quit" match against Flair. It would have been extremely stupid for the NWA to hand that title back over to him while guys like Race and Flair were so hot with it.

    That still doesn't discredit my point, Numbers.

    Because as I've mentioned, he's never needed the belt. He'll get his long run soon enough (which will probably end up being with the Unified Championship).

    Everything you're saying though doesn't discredit Orton. That was all WWE and HHH's fault... not Orton's. As you even said yourself right above, he could have made it worked if it were booked better, but since it wasn't... you can't blame him for what happened.

    That's on booking, not Randy Orton himself. He was ready to be a champion, just like you said. That's all that matters.
     
  12. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    JMT, I’d like to thank you for your part in this. I really wanted to drop out of this a couple of weeks back but now I want to see it out, especially as the mod thing ends this week. Knowing you are a huge fan of Funk (and having seen your posts in his Tournament thread) has not made this any easier. But it has been real fun.

    *****

    I don’t like WWE much any more but this is not difficult for me to say. Randy Orton has to emerge as the guy to lead WWE in the next 15 years if the company is going to remain as the pinnacle of their industry.

    The guy has all the tools and even if he is weak on the mic, he doesn’t need to be strong in order to get the reaction he is currently getting. He barely needs to speak.

    But in the WZ Tournament this year, the fact that Orton got past Funk is sheer indictment of how the majority of this site thinks. They don’t even remember him for his best qualities. While his run in ECW was memorable for the unthinkable nature of it, they don’t remember the fantastic character that he was or even his best match against Flair. They only remember the bat-shit loopy old guy doing hardcore shit in a bingo hall.

    ECW was better than that and Terry Funk was a damn sight better than that. The guy had a 400 days plus long NWA title reign. Randy Orton has the WWE equivalent seven times and the length of times in total falls below 300 days. That makes Orton a dependable guy to hold the ball, not to run with it. It shows that WWE rate him as a reliable guy, a placeholder, but no moreso than Edge or Batista (in his most recent heel run) or any other guy who has lost their belt as soon the opportunity allowed it.

    Terry Funk in his prime would not be put down for a three count by a young punk like Orton. Having spent the best of three decades doing the territories, raising hell and kicking ass in a way that Steve Austin would have been proud of. Nobody was getting heat like he was for his actions. Funk showed himself to be as versatile, entertaining and interesting as any one else in history. Period. I stand by my earlier point that his all-around work carries influence today, just through to some of the great workers that Orton worked with in his earliest days (Race, Flair, HHH, Foley).

    In an era where WWE has no competition, a huge roster and two world titles, Orton’s run in WWE cannot yet be compared to some of the all time greats. The product and the era simply can’t compare.

    This is what makes him a great character and an incredible asset to the business as it was in his day. In seven years Orton cannot be compared to Terry Funk, he barely deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence at this point in time. In thirty years, maybe he will be remembered as fondly. If he has achieved half as much then he could be very happy with his efforts.

    Funk, just like other great brawlers like Brody and Hansen, will be one of many who are harshly underrated by the fans who have only been exposed to the current, modern product.
     
    jmt225 likes this.
  13. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Nice back and forth, guys. Maybe you guys will have a chance in the playoffs to debate a topic that actually makes sense.

    Clarity: Numbers gave the better opening argument.

    Point: Numbers

    Punctuality: Neither ever took more than 24 hours to respond.

    Point: Split

    Informative: jmt225 was able to name some PPVs when Numbers asked a question that may or may not have been rhetorical. Anyway, I liked that, so jmt225 gets the point here.

    Point: jmt225

    Persuasion: Numbers picked what was in my opinion the right choice. While jmt225 made a valiant effort to defend Randy Orton, it wasn't enough to overcome the fact that Numbers didn't take his having the easier argument for granted: he still brought in a wealth of knowledge and squeezed out of every last drop of this knowledge's usefulness.

    Points: Numbers

    Final Score

    Numbers: 3.5
    jmt225: 1.5
     
  14. BooCocky

    BooCocky On A Nature walk with Daniel Bryan

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    Clarity: Numbers had a better opener. JMT's was nice and all but I thought Numbers went the extra mile...

    Point: Numbers

    Punctuality: No one took too long..

    Point: Split

    Informative: I don't believe either used a lot of information but I like JMT's use of the PPV's. Similar to what Tdigs said. I give JMT the point...

    Point: jmt225

    Persuasion: Honestly, one debater had the edge but he didn't take advantage. I wasn't a fan of the topic because it gave the one side no room to work with. Therefore I'm splitting the point. Numbers didn't go off, and JMT really had nothing to work with. I am splitting the point.

    Point- Split

    JMT- 2.5
    Numbers 2.5
     
  15. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Numbers had good opening and closing posts

    Point - Numbers

    Punctuality: Neither ever took more than 24 hours to respond apparently

    Point - Split

    Informative: jmt was providing more information, Numbers had to admit that he didnt know whether Funk had great matches or not for a certain time period

    Point - jmt225

    Persuasion: Honestly glad these topics are over, "who's the better asset?" and then comparing guys which truth be told is fucking impossible to compare as "assetts". Both guys did well in their attempts though and I am splitting the point as a result, well done.

    Point - Split

    My Scores;

    Numbers - 2.5
    jmt225 - 2.5
     
  16. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    The subject of "better assets" is a tough one to debate. But both guys really took it to each other here. I have to award a split down the middle in all categories here.

    Final Score:
    jmt225: 2.5
    Numbers: 2.5
     
  17. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, Numbers is the victor with 11 points to jmt225's 9.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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