Round 4: Tenta -vs- Mr. Steve

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 22, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Which steroid controversy has made a bigger impact on the industry, the McMahon Controversy or the Benoit Controversy?

    This is a fourth round match in the Debater's League. Tenta is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    I'm going to go ahead and take the Benoit Case. Note: it's likely I'm going to lose the punctuality point, as I'm currently traveling from Florida to move in my sister to going to my own school. I already know I'm going to lose that point, to which I apologize to Steve. Though, I'm going to give you the best I got.


    My opening post, I'll keep brief; While the Benoit is merely an extension of the media's contempt for Vince McMahon and his product, which perhaps one could say stemmed from the issues with one Dr. Greg Zoharian, Vince McMahon was ultimately acquitted from the charges filed against him. Sure, that was pretty much based on the Nailz testimony, but that said, no one was dying under the watch of Vince, at least at this case. When Chris Benoit passed away, we were finally forced to take a look in the mirror, and pull back the curtain. The results found something we all never have had to acknowledge, until now, and until Benoit passed away.

    Chris Von Erich - 21
    Mike Von Erich - 23
    Louie Spiccoli - 27
    Art Barr - 28
    Gino Hernandez - 29
    Jay Youngblood - 30
    Rick McGraw - 30
    Joey Marella - 30
    Ed Gatner - 31
    Buzz Sawyer - 32
    Crash Holly - 32
    Kerry Von Erich - 33
    D.J. Peterson - 33
    Eddie Gilbert - 33
    The Renegade - 33
    Owen Hart - 33
    Chris Candido - 33
    Adrian Adonis - 34
    Gary Albright - 34
    Bobby Duncum Jr. - 34
    Yokozuna - 34
    Big Dick Dudley - 34
    Brian Pillman - 35
    Marianna Komlos - 35
    Pitbull #2 - 36
    The Wall/Malice - 36
    Leroy Brown - 38
    Mark Curtis - 38
    Eddie Guerrero - 38
    Davey Boy Smith - 39
    Johnny Grunge - 39
    Vivian Vachon - 40
    Jeep Swenson - 40
    Brady Boone - 40
    Terry Gordy - 40
    Bertha Faye - 40
    Billy Joe Travis - 40
    Chris Benoit - 40
    Larry Cameron - 41
    Rick Rude - 41
    Randy Anderson - 41
    Bruiser Brody - 42
    Miss Elizabeth - 42
    Big Boss Man - 42
    Earthquake - 42
    Mike Awesome - 42
    Ray Candy - 43
    Nancy Benoit (Woman) - 43
    Dino Bravo - 44
    Curt Hennig - 44
    Bam Bam Bigelow - 45
    Jerry Blackwell - 45
    Junkyard Dog - 45
    Hercules - 45
    Andre the Giant - 46
    Big John Studd - 46
    Chris Adams - 46
    Mike Davis - 46
    Hawk - 46
    Dick Murdoch - 49
    Jumbo Tsuruta - 49
    Rocco Rock - 49
    Sherri Martel - 49

    Say what you will about how these men died, but the numbers don't lie, all of these men had passed away since 1985 because, either directly or otherwise, because of the wrestling lifestyle. The Benoit case? It was just the tip of the iceberg in unveiling the massive death toll of professional wrestling.

    Look, I'd like to see Mr. Steve argue that deaths are less important than federal charges. The WWE has blood on their hands; pretending otherwise is absolutely ignorant, especially after the Benoit Case.
     
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  3. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    It's cool, Tenta. You got your reasons for posting late, so it's fine by me. Let it be said that they should at lest be flexible with you on the punctuality point.

    Opening post


    The reason the Benoit case got as much infamy that it did was because of WWE's reputation with steroids. Which can be pretty much attributed to the legal trial he went through. The trial was the beginning, so to speak. Besides, the reports indicated that the Benoit murder suicide can be attributed to Steroids. Wasn't it the fact that he developed major concussions to the head and developed advanced Dementia?

    from the ABC news article here:

    Dementia Caused by Multiple Concussions, Doctor Says

    After hearing the news that his son had murdered his 7-year-old son, Daniel, and wife Nancy and then killed himself, Michael Benoit struggled to understand how it could have happened.

    Michael says Benoit was a "kind and gentle" man who volunteered with the Make-A-Wish Foundation and visited U.S. troops overseas in Iraq.

    "First we needed an understanding. The person that did this is not the man we know and love," Michael said today on "Good Morning America."

    After the suicide and murders, Michael was contacted by a former wrestler, who suggested he investigate whether years of trauma to Benoit's brain could have contributed to his actions.

    "I was grasping for anything," Michael told ABC News' Bob Woodruff. "The world was very black. I mean, we didn't even know how to deal with this."

    So Michael turned over part of his son's brain to Bailes, the head of neurosurgery at West Virginia University and former Pittsburgh Steelers team physician.

    Bailes and his research team had also analyzed the brains of former NFL players such as Andre Waters and Terry Long, who both committed suicide. Bailes and his colleagues theorize that repeated concussions can lead to dementia, which can contribute to severe behavioral problems.

    "There is a constant theme in the failure of their personal lives, their business lives, depression and then ultimately suicide," Bailes said.

    The fact of the matter is, limiting the topic to steroids, it's clear that the steroid trial that McMahon went through back then was all the more impactful. It was the very reason that people started to look into the Benoit muder-suicide. Of course, it was very unfortunate, and rather grim to a man like that, but you can't say it was attributed to steroids, since it's been said over and over that it was the concussions that did him in. The fact of the matter is, The McMahon controversy was pretty much starting to affect it when it was in its prime (Hulkamania was running wild back then), and thus, it lost what grip it had on culture after that.

    Also an excerpt from the same article.

    Bailes said that while he can't be certain that the brain damage caused Benoit's actions, he believes it is the leading cause.

    "We think these changes are not due to steroids," Bailes said. "That has never really been studied, but it's never been in the medical literature or any research that shows steroids do this to the brain. These changes [in the brain] were found in the 1920s before steroids were even invented."

    For Michael Benoit and the family, these test results provide a small amount of comfort.

    "Bascially, once the findings came out and I had the opportunity to talk to the doctors, we certainly had an understanding of what could have contributed to the tragedy that took place that day," Michael said.

    The message Michael would like Benoit's surviving children to take away is that "their dad loved [them] dearly and what happened wasn't his fault."

    Let's make it rain, and bring the draws, Tents.
     
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  4. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Steve, for you sir, I'm going to do as well as possible, man.


    Yes, yes, Benoit was clearly suffering from Concussion issues. I believe it was Chris Kanyon, Bret Hart, and plenty of others who had pointed out that Benoit's reckless style caused perhaps dozens of concussions, at the least. But the truth is, you're right, Plenty of people had been on McMahon for his brand of entertainment. Still, no one had the ammunition to state that Vince's business was life threatening. That is, until the Benoit case. Now, when we hear wrestlers pass away, what's the first thing we wait for? That's right; the toxicology reports. When Umaga and Lance Cade passed away, we assumed the worst, something we never did until Benoit passed away. The truth is, The Benoit case forced us all an introspective look at a grisly, life altering profession. It's a result the likes of which have given plenty of people ammunition to stay away from professional wrestling.


    Saying the steroids didn't do anything to Benoit's brain is purely ignorant. Sure, the concussions led him to a road of Dementia. From Global Change.com

    Steroids also affect the brain, and high doses can make people feel happy, euphoric, hyped-up, with disturbance of sleep and even serious psychiatric illness such as mania, very aggressive behavior and psychosis (delusions, pananoia, loss of touch with reality). If steroid users are also taking other drugs which affect mood or brain function, these side-effects can be far more common.

    Steroids are really useful in the care of those with advanced cancer when short life expectancy from their condition means physicians are far more relaxed about long term side-effects.

    Brain tumours often respond dramatically to steroids. The reason is that the brain is contained in a bony box inside the skull and pressure can build up inside the head, resulting in headaches, sickness, drowsiness and other problems. Brain scans often show that a tunour the size of a wallnut can be surrounded by a big immune reaction, with brain swelling and inflammation. Steroids reduce the additional swelling, often reversing symptoms and buying time - maybe a few weeks. The underlying cancer continues to grow and if the person finally begins to deteriorate death often follows rapidly as the steroid dose is reduced.

    So steroids are really powerful, with wide ranges of actions, producing dramatic effects ranging from pain relief to mood elevation, and if it were not for the very serious side effects they would be used even more often.

    The body becomes dependent on steroids and when used in health care, most physicians reduce dosage gradually, even though they may start in an acute illness with a very high dose.

    Look, steroids make the brain chemistry one in which is volatile, and change our behavior exceedingly. Saying it was merely concussions is flat out irresponsible



    I'm sorry, but are we forgetting that little "Attitude Era" that caught endless media attention, that lasted after the McMahon case?

    I'm listening

    Do you see what I highlighted there?

    Look, I get what you're saying, but disagree here with you. Yes, concussions had some effect, and I won't deny that. But steroids do, in fact, affect brain chemistry. It's simple; another added hormone to your body makes your brain go haywire. And again, we're dealing with the court of public opinion, and either way, people are going to assume steroids

    McMahon has faced his time in federal court, and was acquitted. No one can acquit him from the damage of this Benoit case, and the public stain that comes from being put into responsibility for these men's death. Something most people didn't attributew until Benoit's death
     
  5. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    True, but one can also attribute it to the backlash the wrestling world suffered when the steroid trial came about. Besides, it's become a recent trend to think like that. To suddenly pin a wrestler's death on steroids is pretty much a recent thing. The stigma of wrestlers TAKING steroids comes from way back.

    Exactly!

    I'm not saying it's merely concussions. All I'm saying is, that the concussions played a bigger part. Besides, for all we know, in his episode of Dementia, he just took the hormones at a higher dosage than recommended for him (he was being treated for that, I think. Might be wrong). Stuff like that can happen, sadly.

    But that happened right where there was a low point in the company. You got to admit, it took a huge hit itself. Same as how Benoit's case forced people to look at the wrestlers, the trial forced people to have a second look at them itself. And that's how the company spiraled downward. It literally took them out of the niche they were in at the time, which forced them to change their product when in competition with WCW at the time. It was a "bad place, bad time" thing.

    Yeah, but look at how people started to pin the blood on Vince's hands. HE was in a trail for steroids in teh first place. They just pinned it on him, didn't look at the whole picture. Benoit had those concussions, and he was found with hormones on a high above dosage(that he was taking for a deficiency problem). Again, his type of demetia is advanced to the point where they get suicidal. He had it at the level of some football players that killed themselves, right?

    Thing is, that looking at both the cases, one can see that the McMahon trial really stands out as the more controvesial. It involved the very owner being accused of giving steroids to them, and taking it himself. He was acquitted, sure. But the stigma remained, and still does to this day. Hell, people that were around during that time will most likely remember how it went about when they looked at the Benoit suicide-murder.
     
  6. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    To the Zahorian case? Yes, wget it, but at the same time, all charges were dropped on Vinnie Mac for this. So, again, in the long run, McMahon's case doesn't seem as pressing as the Benoit one



    Brother, we absolutely agree in principle here. That said, we seem to differ on the role of steroids in Brain Chemistry. It's really nothing more than simple 10th grade Biology.

    A class I got a C- in, but still.

    Well, yes, but one thing you can't account for when it comes to Concussions; the rash nature of his actions. The anger in which Benoit killed his wife, the signs he used his Crippler Crossface to subdue Daniel; one can absolutely argue his actions were of rash anger. One in which can be tied to steroids, perhaps more than Concussions



    Well yes, but you're argument stems that the WWE's popularity was hurt by the McMahon case. From 1993-97? Sure, you have a point, but then it did the best business ever known for any company. Trust me, if McMahon's case was that impactful, no way the Attitude Era happens

    Well yes, but that's implying football players don't take steroids, something in which we all know isn't exactly true, no?

    That said, you bring up a fair point, I concede, but that said, Vince may have been pinned, but was acquitted, man. Read: McMahon got off scott free. Maybe if he were charged, we'd have a story, but he was free of all charges


    Well, not necessarily. The stigma wasn't that strong, if the WWE's business skyrocketed after, with the Attitude Era. Benoit's case has forced us all to recognize the dangers of this business, one in which are far more lasting, and evidential, than the proof found in the McMahon case
     
  7. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    Does it? I tend to think that it does, since it's one of the topics for debate here. It's still something that lingers in the old wrestling fan's mind.

    Well, not so. We're differing in the "which one hurt the business more"

    C average. Like a Boss.

    You can't neither. What did him in, the "roid-rage" or the

    Yeah, but what's the stereotype for a wrestler? Souped-up body 'cause of steroids, right?

    Right?

    True, but take into account the amount of shots they take. Benoit took some fucked up shots as well, didn't he?

    Still, the cloud looms. Once he got accused, people thought twice of his business. They would have just gone "Wow, he's really just disregarding his workers' well being for fame".Which lasted well into this year. And also, it was accentuated by Benoit's death. People want to pin it on their hands because of that.

    But thing is: it was already accused in the case. It pretty much has its shadiness already. Was he giving them steroids? why didn't he suspend or fire anyone back then? all those sorts of things. It's not the case itself, it's Vince. Vince was the one that people accused of overworking them and forcing them to take the steroids so he could propel them to stardom. That's what it's about, and that was the undertone of the case. Same undertone that's carried into the Benoit case.
     
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  8. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    But the fact is, most fans who watche wrestling now, they associate Chris with Steroids. I bet if you ask a hundred fans, 85 to 90 will associate steroids with Chris Benoit. Maybe they'll say Dr. Zahorian, but it's highly unlikely. Face it; Chris Benoit has become the poster child of steroid abuse in wrestling

    Not exactly. Again, the biggest boom in wrestling history after the McMahon case. Did it hurt the business? Sure. Permanent damage? Uh, you bet not


    ... ?

    Yes, I get where you're going at here. You're saying the Concussions did him in. A little bit tricky, but ok. Again, it's a combination; The steroids and the concussions did him in. And the media isn't going to focus on the concussions. Again, you're looking at the matter as a wrestling fan, easily understood. The non wrestling fan, though, is not going to focus on the concussions, because there's no juice to it. Pardon the pun, huh?


    Actually, the typical stereotype is a greasy guy who wrestles around with men in tights. I should know. My girlfriend is sitting right next to me to tell me.

    Though, noted. But now the situation is right in front of us all. We know that steroids lead to wrestlers early deaths. We'ver never had proof before. Well, we did, but the Benoit case forced us all to re-examine it, and see how responsible the steroids were to the wrestler's death


    Agreed, but once again, you're looking at the matter like a pure wrestling fan. A non wrestling fan doesn't give a shit about concussions. They care about the roids.

    No, don't get me wrong, this is true. That said, people ignored the cloud for the Attitude Era. People didn't give half a shit. Hell, there was a whole storyline done about drug addiction in wrestling, with Road Warrior Hawk and no one was the least bit caring, as long as Steve Austin was on the screen. I see what you're saying, but really, the McMahon case didn't stop the biggest boom in wrestling. And really, as long as Vince was acquitted, it didn't even matter much at all in the long run.



    I haven't had to throw this one out there yet, but personal choice. At the end of the day, Vince got off because he could argue that it's a wrestler's personal choice to intake whatever they do. Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, all have agreed that Vince isn't responsible for what performers take into their system. At the end of the day, Vince's case doesn't matter, because every wrestler makes a personal choice to take whatever they want. Benoit is personally responsible for himself, and has stained professional wrestling with his own actions
     
  9. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    But Vince was the center of steroid in wrestling as well. Should another unfortunate death come that involves steroids, people will claim that it became the center of attention when it comes to steroid abuse in wrestling. Our case is, which one has lasted more. Which one has had the more impact in its notoriety. The trial lasted a good while; Benoit was literally cast out of the 'E.

    Same as Benoit. Was it permanent damage to the business? No. Did it hurt it? Yes. It's a matter of what type of view we're looking at it. Are you seeing it as a wrestling fan or not? I got no other choice BUT to look at it like that, especially with Benoit.

    That's the thing: What way do we look at it? We got all these differing scenarios, and people took sides. In the case, it was either Vince did it and got away with it, or he didn't supply wrestlers with steroids.


    All the more reason to examine the trial again. What the fuck was going on at the time?

    Again, it's the scenarios that come into play here.

    That's the part where it goes iffy for me. I mean, You got this boss trying to get more attraction for their wrestlers, and he literally made this subtle rep of giving steroids because of the trial. It makes me think twice about them both, is all.

    True, but back then, he took it upon himself, or so he was accused, of giving them the steroids. Of literally telling them what to put in their bodies. It's quite fucked up if you think about it. And it lingers to this day, because of the very fact that you're wanting Vince to answer for the blood on his hands when it shouldn't be there in the first place. Benoit chose to take chair shots to the head, and do the flying headbutt, an do all of those things. Yet, it's Vince's fault?
     
  10. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    I see what you're getting at; The WWE is going to get the brunt of the media attention. Dude; that's going to happen anyway. Simple logic here; Because the WWE is the biggest market available, and there isn't even remotely close competition to the matter, the WWE is going to get blamed anyway. Simple logic there, really

    Well, you could take a step outside the wrestling world, and try to see it like a non-wrestling fan. Because frankly, we can argue like wrestling fans how the Benoit and McMahon cases affected the actual wrestling product. We can moan about how because of Benoit, no one takes head chair shots, but really, that is the tip of the iceberg as it pertains to how it hurts the business. As a fan, looking outside the bias of a wrestling fan. And really, the outside wrestling fan never noticed the names who died before the age of fifty, and have had their loves severely affected by the wrestling business.

    That is, until Benoit's grisly demise. The true fact is, the media never reported the deaths, or really cared to, until this story came around, and it was too juicy to pass up, really. And the Bill O'Reilly's, The Anderson Cooper's, all the other talking heads could now discuss how horrible the wrestling business is, and why we should be horrified by the WWE, and TNA, and the like.

    None of it matters, because at the end of the day, Vince was cleared of all charges, and is therefore not legally responsible for the steroids. I see that you''re basically arguing that the McMahon case let the world know wrestler's did steroids. News Flash, Steve; people were well aware that wrestlers were taking steroids before the Zahorian case. Come on, you don't think people watched the massive physiques of wrestlers, and didn't smell a rat?


    Again, hindsight being what it is, doesn't matter, because Vince was ultimately acquitted. You could argue the roids hurt the WWE's business, but that really isn't all that true. The fact is, The WWE was shooting itself in the foot with horrible fiscal decisions, and the competition was slowly getting better. C'mon Steve, IcoPro? The WBF? All of these are ventures that Vince tried around the same time as the steroid case, which were all dramatic failures. That, if anything, was more responsible for the WWE's fiscal woes


    But the problem with your side is simple; Vince has been acquitted of all charges, man

    Vince gets partial blame, yes. But any owner would be responsible man. Just the nature of being a boss
     
  11. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    True. Rather unfair, but if you look at it, both subjects come up when it happens. It's either "McMahon was indicted on a steroid distribution charge" or "one of his workers murdered his family then killed himself on a roid-rage/dementia episode". Very grisly, yes.

    Man, there are plenty more cases that we can argue how the product is affected. Hell, the goddamn McMahon Senate Race can be included, as well as the big sponsorships in the 'E, and how TNA is bringing in the old guys. That affects the wrestling product, doesn't it?

    Onto the topic: Partly the reason the changes in the product are made stems from BOTH the cases. McMahon can't afford another trial, and he was damn near close to it in 2005, and he got a senate hearing not too long ago, remember. Stephanie even had to say what they were going to to do with Benoit the weekend of his death (how he was booked to win the ECDub title).

    What, you thought that wasn't what happened back then? It's fact, the media will pretty much pick anything apart.

    No shit. But again, they'll want to know what exactly is going on. So they place a scapegoat for it: Vince. Is it an ethics case? yes. He's being seen as a man that wasn't looking out for the well being of his employers. It's an ethical issue, which honestly, has a very bitter aftertaste. They pointed out that he distributed the steroids back then, and in 2005, the company was still distributing? Something's up. And it gets people to think: Why isn't he keeping a tighter reign on things. The genesis of it, so to speak, was back in the trial. I'm just taking the ethical standpoint: He got accused for placing the needs of the company well above the well being of his employers. Especially employers that tend to take the bumps that the wrestlers take for Vince.

    But how do you think those things came about. No one wants to get into bed with a guy being on trial. The trial wasn't the end all be all for the company, but it gave way for a huge dent.

    Doesn't matter if he did. The damage was done at that point.

    Exactly. Which is the very reason he was indicted in the first place. And also, it was the reason there was a drug policy implemented to get them out of their backs. Let's face it, though: The policy wasn't probably the paragon of drug monitoring, but it was done. The Benoit just made them enforce it in a more stricter way. But this policy was pretty much borne of the trial.
     
  12. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Well, your point on TNA would hold more weight if the older names could work, and work like they used to. Trust me, TNA is really no problem for the WWE, and if Vince wanted to, he could crush them.

    That said, the Linda campaign is fair. But most people know it as a publicity grab, one in which is supposedly for positive publicity, and a good name in the US. Most people know this to be damage control for the bad publicity doled out from the Benoit case.

    True, but again, The WWE never really changed it's product after the Steroid Era. As a matter of fact, steroids were more, if not as, prevalent, in the Attitude Era, man. Sure, Bret Hart was given a run with the strap, but otherwise, the same muscle men were around the WWE. Lex Luger, Adam Bomb, Brian Adams, all men who were known to have taken steroids, and all who got pretty damn big pushes in the WWE's steroid era

    True, but the Benoit case was filled with far more grisly details, the likes of which made for more media attention. Even under the Steroid Era, no wrestlers died from poor hearts while under Vince's watch. By the time Benoit passed, the WWE was filled with skeletons of wrestlers who died due to steroid abuse, that they could no longer hide

    You'll get no arguments there, that Vince doesn't treat his employees greatly. That said, Vince still was never responsible for wrestler's personal choices, and again, all of his charges were dismissed. So the issue is, again...?



    Perhaps, but there was no real damage done. the WWE did astronomical business even after McMahon's case. Show me where they were hurt by that.

    Doesn't matter if he did. The damage was done at that point.



    Well, the Wellness policy was created in 2006, after Eddie's death. Vince's drug testing was filled with one huge loophole, and that was prescriptions, as described in Bret Hart's book. Vince's drugn testing was made to keep wrestlers from getting busted really
     
  13. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    No protesting there.

    I think it stretches out far beyond the death of Chris. Remember, she served on the Conneticut board. Wait, what's she have to do with anything? Oh wait, she was placed as CEO of the company as a move.

    WHAT?! She tipped off Zahorian of the charges through a memo found here?

    "Although you and I discussed before about continuing to have Zahorian at our events as the doctor on call, I think that is now not a good idea," McMahon wrote in the memo. "Vince agreed, and would like for you to call Zahorian and to tell him not to come to any more of our events and to also clue him in on any action that the Justice Department is thinking of taking."


    Some time that month, not long before Zahorian was arrested and charged with illegally selling steroids, federal prosecutors alleged that an unnamed Titan Sports official called the doctor and instructed him to "destroy any evidence of his contact with WWF or WWF wrestling personnel."


    Well, that's cause the focus on the trial was on Vince himself. As well as Hogan, who was called to testify and the Nailz testimony (lulz). Given the fact that if the Nailz testimony would have been taken into account, we'd be looking at a totally different scenario now, since it would have pretty much overshadowed things more than it has now.

    Face it, even the lesser evil has some echos tonight.

    Thing is, people were dying of steroids way before Benoit did. Mike Von Erich killed himself with an overdose, Eddie died due to an enlarged heart because of steroids. Rick Rude as well. True, Benoit was the one that opened the floodgates, but the water coming out wasn't as much as you'd think. Meaning that people were already aware of these things. Of wrestlers that had a tryst with steroids and paid the price long before Benoit's. But it was starting to be more apparent after the trial.

    He almost went to jail for that. He was damn near close to being passed around like a peace-pipe if not for Nailz.

    Didn't you say it? the bodybuilder federation took a huge hit because of it. An actual business shut down due to one trial.

    The wellness policy was made before that. Not in the same way as now, since as you said, there were plotholes. But it stemmed from that. He didn't want to end up in another hearing, and get damn near close to a sentence again, so he implements the policy. Hell, Benoit and Eddie just made him enforce it more
     
  14. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Well, no crap, Linda was involved in the Zahorian case, she was the effin' CEO. The same CEO that was in charge during Benoit's meltdown.

    Society and weak minds prove. We're more drawn to the more recent, more gruesome story


    But we aren't, now are we?



    Ya see what I highlighted there? That's why the Benoit case was the correct answer



    He almost went to jail for that. He was damn near close to being passed around like a peace-pipe if not for Nailz.



    Man, I get what you're saying. The WBF flopped because it was a sucky idea. Pro wrestling mixed with body building? Does that really sound like a money making idea?



    No, you're right, but that loophole was something you could drive a mack truck through. Prescriptions; They saved so many wrestlers from getting their asses busted.


    You mean, enforce it in earnest. Something Vince never had to do before Benoit and Guerrero.

    And yes, I may have screwed up a tad. Guerrero was the kicking point for the Wellness Policy. I must say, you're doing well, Steve. Too bad you're still wrong
     
  15. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    She was MADE CEO during the trial. Hell, it was because of the trial she became CEO. To prevent any legal ramifications towards the company if Vince got indicted.

    But we're also drawn to the trials. To watching these powerful people being brought down to our level even by an accusation. Hell, the last PR governor got indicted DURING his term. He walked away clean, but his rep is shot to shit. Which isn't to say it's the same situation, because it's not. Just something to point out.

    But look, McMahon pretty much got stifled because he was being accused of not keeping an eye on the wrestlers. Steroids go illegal, Vince is suddenly fucked because he's owning a company whose wrestlers juice. He's on the hotseat now. and because of the trial, we start to see the end of Hulkamania

    I never said it's the wrong answer. I just said mine's a more appropriate answer than yours.


    Does it sound like it would last during a steroid trial.[/quote]

    Didn't save the British Bulldog. One of the first to get suspended. That's the thing, though. Vince just tried to find ways to circumvent the policy. Makes the trial all the more controversial since he's defying it in front of the feds.

    Again, it's probably his way of saying fuck you to the federal government. Same way that he doesn't call wrestling "wrestling" to avoid the taxes. That poofy bastard is like Danny Ocean: Will think of anything creative to get his way.

    Which pretty much nulls the debate. Should have been Eddie/Trial. Hell even Eddie/Benoit would have been even better since the latter just augmented the controversy surrounding the other. In the same way that both these mens' unfortunate deaths are just amplifying what went on back then in the trial and how Vince dealt with it afterwards.

    You haven't proved me wrong yet. Same way I haven't proved you wrong. This one's for the ages, my friend.
     
  16. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    I'm going to just keep out your Linda point. Doesn't do anything to further either our points




    No, I get you. People like trials. But when a person is acquitted, the worst is merely over. Sure, you can argue public point of view, but it becomes quite null when you consider they did their best business ever after this trial.

    Hulkamania was waning about as early as late 1991. Did you not hear cheers when Taker beat Hogan? The charges against McMahon weren't levied until mid 1992. Ahem, lest I bring up the 92 Rumble, where Hogan was boo'ed out the building to the younger, bigger, Sid Justice. Truth was, Hulkamania was already wearing thin before the steroid case, man. The steroid case did not kill Hulkamania. Vince's constant over pushing of Vince, and protecting babyfaces too much did.

    In what way? Fiscally they did the best business. And McMahon was acquitted on all charges


    Probably not. But the point is, it was never going to last anyhow

    And Warrior, you can lump him in. But the truth was, Vince was happy to see those two sacks of shits go. But the point is, the wellness policy after the steroid case was something in which you'd have to be an idiot to fail the test





    But the Benoit case is what forced it into the public image, and has totally screwed over any good will the WWE has gained over the years
     
  17. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    It what? Void? You serious?It took them a while to get their best business. The attitude Era didn't kick in until 1997. The trial ended in '94. That's 3 years of WWF facing bankruptcy. The buyrates went to shit, remember?

    Still, you can't deny Hogan wasn't in his good graces after the trial. Hell, Hogan's testimony was one of the main factors of him losing the favor of Vince, and it was a testimony that favored Vince. It was the coup de grace on the relationship, so to speak.

    No. During those 3 years inbetween that and Attitude, they were ass deep in shit. It's the perfect example of how publicity works: it fucked them over even if Vince was acquitted.


    Same as now, right? You got to be a real idiot to fail the test as well.

    Remember that WWE had a family-oriented product back then. The trial pretty much ruined the public view of the company, acquittal or not. Compare the aftermath of both cases. One seriously put the company in peril, the other was basically a disassociation. Which one is worse? Benoit's murder-suicide forced the WWE to remove all content related to him, lest they get another steroid trial on their hands. They got a Senate Hearing, yes. But it's not the same. Last trial the company went through put them in serious trouble.
     
  18. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Well, again, plenty of reason for that. True, you're very right, but business wasn't just down because of that, it was suffering from the sins of IcoPro, the WBF, and a lack of product in which fans actually wanted to see.

    Yet, it didn't stop Vince from bringing him back for 2002, now did it? He was given the friggin world title! I mean, yes, it hurt the friendship, but Vince sees his talent as money bags, and Hogan was still a big old bag of cash

    But did it really, or did bad business decisions doom the WWE for that time?

    Plenty of names are failing left and right now. Cade, Regal, Umaga. Hell, even the cosumate professional, Rey Mysterio, failed a test. Doesn't sad that easy to pass.

    But again, was that because of families, or because fans wanted a different product. Wasn't this the beginning of ECW's rise to glory?

    Trust me, try as he might, the WWE is still married to Benoit, for worse.... Or, well, worse
     
  19. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    Let it be said that I'm running on Daniel Bryan's theme song for this bitch.

    Why do you think they didn't want to see it? The 'F was making the IcoPro and the WBF, and the trial happens? Vince literally picked the two worst things to make when faced with a steroid trial.

    Mixture of both. You're still not proving me wrong here.

    What, because they can't tell the doctors "Look, I'm taking this as a prescription, so it's going to show." Mysterio failed it because his prescription expired early yet he still took the pills. Same as Cade, who was said to have made a "major league mistake". Umaga DENIED treatment. Regal had an addiction as well. that affects Vince, since people will probably go "Jesus, he can't reign them in. He's going to end up in a trial and have his business fucked over."

    Wait....are you confusing the timelines?

    Same as the trial. Same as how people couldn't lie in bed with Vince after he just put out a line of supplements and a bodybuilding federation when he was being indicted for steroid distribution. That's just a dumb as shit move.
     
  20. Tenta

    Tenta The Shark Should've Worked in WCW

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    Steve, for a lack of time, and it's been fun, man. But I feel as though it may be best to have a conclusion to this whole matter, man. Really, we've put all that matters on the line in this contest, but the truth of the matter is, it all boils down to the bodies. At the time of Vince's trial, we didn't have to worry about the body count. Did people use steroids? Perhaps. But we didn't have a clear cut number of the deaths caused by wrestling. The Benoit case opened up a vault the likes of which has caused us all to ponder wrestling.

    Steve, fantastic job, man. Really waas
     
  21. Mr. Steve

    Mr. Steve Everybody calls me Ruxin, Rupert.

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    Cool. As always, I got nothing but the best out of you. If anything, I got what I really wanted out of this league.

    There have been bodies way before Benoit. There have been steroids before benoit. There have been people that have put their health on the line in such a maverick way as Benoit. Understandable, yes. But what it boils down to now, to me, is pretty much the face that Vince pretty much had his back against the wall. He was just making bad business decisions, and as a result, he couldn't be the CEO of his OWN company. He was forced to hand the whole business reign to Linda, and as a result, he pretty much got involved in wrestling more. Remember that controversy can be good or bad. He just rolled with it. He made a stupid as fuck decision to open a bodybuilding federation and a supplement line during a steroid trial.

    Did people use steroids? Of course they did! it's the whole reason for the damn trial in the first place. The aftermath was pretty much abyss for Vince, and somehow, he got out of it, and rolled with it. The result that came after years of being down was the Attitude Era, which in retrospect, is plenty controversial seeing as the product did a huge 180 to what was going on in the early 90's.

    Which I think just accentuates what had happened back in the trial, and maybe. Just maybe Vince had some degree of responsibility to what happened to the wrestlers. If he did have a sense of responsibility or at least some type of common sense, the Benoit case doesn't happen.

    Excellent debate, man. We got a good one on our hands here.
     
  22. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Tenta made the more persuasive of the two arguments, but Mr. Steve had him beat (or at least tied) on punctuality. Steve, in my opinion, clearly beat Tenta in when it came to the categories of informativeness and clarity.

    Final Score
    Tenta - 2
    Mr. Steve -3
     
  23. Miko

    Miko WATCHA GONNA DO, BROTHER!?

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    Clarity: Going with Mr. Steve on the clarity stakes

    Point - Steve

    Punctuality: what the digglet said about being tied

    Point - Draw

    Informative: Tenta's debate was the more informative on the two I thought, a good use of information from him there

    Point - Tenta

    Persuasion: A really long debate, which while interesting on some points mostly added up to both posters each giving their opinions to an equal degree and not really proving the other wrong. So for this reason I have to call it a draw.

    My scores;

    Tenta - 2.5
    Mr. Steve - 2.5

    Like the woman in my basement, this one is all tied up
     
  24. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Mr. Steve
    Nicely laid out and gave a good conclusion to wrap up his debate, good understanding of the subject.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Equal amount of time put in by both men.

    Informative: Mr. Steve
    Steve corrected Tenta a couple of times and also had thorough info to back up his cause, a prime example being that Linda was made CEO because of the Vince trial.

    Persuasion: Draw
    While there was repetitiveness and the debate did start to drag on at the end, both debaters really went all out, neither would back down and we got some great points from both, it ended in a true stalemate.

    Final Score
    Tenta: 1.5
    Mr. Steve: 3.5
     
  25. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Clarity: Mr. Steve
    Very well done debate.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Both guys tore this one up in the proper time frame.

    Informative: Mr. Steve
    Steve facts outed Tenta on a few occasions.

    Persuasion: Draw
    This debate was one of the best so far. I can't decide on just one winner. Great job by both.

    Final Score
    Mr. Steve: 3.5
    Tenta: 1.5
     
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