Round 3: Disarray v Falkon

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2010' started by D-Man, Aug 15, 2010.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Has Christian’s previous run with TNA affected his chance of winning one of the World Titles in WWE?

    This is a third round match in the Debater's League. Disarray is the home debater and gets to choose which side of the debate they will be on and who debates first, but they have 24 hours to make their choice.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Friday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck.​
     
  2. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    It has not affected his chances. Falkon is up first.
     
  3. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Good luck, Mr. Toyota.


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    Christian is an interesting prospect in the wrestling world. It has been said that the time he has taken to participate in the company Total Non-Stop Action, between his two World Wrestling Entertainment stints, have hindered his chances of gaining a World Championship during the latter WWE stint. Honestly, I concur with that statement and it's easy to see when taking a comparative analysis of his career.

    His First WWE Stint:

    Ever since Christian entered into the E, he has been on the rise to stardom. He's dominated the Tag Team scene, the mid-card scene and was well on his way to the Main Event... actually, no, scratch that, he reached that pinnacle. I am, of course, talking about when Christian was on RAW (the company's flagship show) in a feud with John Cena (the face of the company) for the WWE Championship (the most prized possession of the company and what one would classify as a "World Title"). People were buying into his stock as a character and wrestler, legitimising himself in the ME scene. He also had a chance at capturing the World Heavyweight Title as well during his short time on SD!

    If I say so myself, Christian was proving himself as a credible enough star to challenge for the championship... but then things got a little interesting.

    Departure & TNA Stint:

    Christian let his WWE contract expire and refused to sign another, during a time when he still had obligations to fulfill... essentially abandoning the WWE who could of had potential plans for him. After some time in the indy scene, he signed a contract with TNA wrestling and instantly became a classic (the pun intentions are up to you). When we saw Christian debut on the roster, he didn't debut under a new name like others had to (Kennedy becoming Anderson) or use his real name (Goldust going to Dustin)... he still kept the Christian name tag. All the time that the WWE spent on him making Christian a success ultimately went the way of TNA and basically won the Championship during the period of his "inception" with the company. Yes, Christian used a name that the WWE created and all the success behind it to win the NWA World Title. Not only once... but twice! That would be like a worker at McDonalds weening his way through the ranks and take all his success to Subway for the pay-off. Almost like Christian leeched off the big body to gain what he needed and left.

    His Second WWE Stint:

    When Christian had enough of TNA and didn't have anything else to achieve, he decided to take a deal with the WWE. Normally, one would think that a person with the previous achievements that he has had with the company would storm onto the scene a cause a ruckus. Well, in a sense, he did that... but to a very minor effect. The E decided they should throw him on their third-rate show, the then-ECW, and have him work a program with a mid-card championship that was relegated from being a World Title. Not exactly the most glamourous of comebacks, especially from what he used to mean for the company. Essentially, Christian was forced to stay on the brand until it's demise before switching over to RAW, and then later SD. One would think that because of how he performed, his former accomplishments and the crowd following he kept would push him to a chance for the World Title? Well... he was relegated back to the mid-card titles such as the Intercontinental Title and hasn't won a championship, or elevated from the mid-card, since.


    How can someone who has been so successful in the past and has proven why he deserves to be there on multiple occasions be denied his chance at the World Title during his second stint? We've deduced that he has gone for previous championships before in the WWE, so he can't be labeled as unfit to wear the gold. The man has a good performance record, considering the fans are always invested into his matches and during any match he can clap his hands to get the crowd behind him. Hell, he can overkill "firing up the crowd" and people will still cheer for him. So, it can't be the fans not wanting him to succeed or his ring skills. I can't think of anything but...

    His previous stint with TNA

    Let's look at the bullet points:

    • He became a CONTENDER for the World Title.
    • He had an UNTIMELY departure with the WWE.
    • He won the NWA WORLD Title (twice).
    • He used the success of his time in the WWE to WIN the title.
    • His name was the one he USED in the WWE.

    Sounds to me like Christian's time in TNA has prevented him from allowing to reach the brass ring in the WWE, considering he was able to get there in his first run with the company. There isn't any other explanation.
     
  4. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    A quick, concise opening for ya.

    Why Christian Has Surely Not Been Affected By His Run In TNA, When It Comes To Whether He Will Be A World Champion In The WWE.​


    Vince Hates TNA, He'll Hold That Against Him, Rabble, Rabble

    Someone would argue this, I know it. The fact of the matter is, it's not true at all. Christian isn't going to be punished simply because he left for a rival company and came back later. Need some proof? There was this Jeff Hardy guy that was in TNA for awhile, doing all kinds of crazy stuff. Lo and behold, this same Jeff Hardy finds his way back in the WWE and eventually becomes World Champion and is main eventing PPVs left and right. Not affected. Another guy - CM Punk. He was in TNA and then won the World Title in the WWE. Fact. So, if you were thinking of using this argument, it's invalid.

    He Wasn't Going To Win One Anyway

    Sure, he was near the main event for a little bit, but Christian was always more or less in the same spot in the card, the midcard, where he belonged. He's about a 9 time Tag Champ, 3 time Intercontinental Champ, European Champ, Hardcore Champ, a Lightweight Champ, etc. The true resume of a midcarder, which is all he was and all he was ever going to be. Don't think there's much more to be said.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    On to your post, fella.

    Who the fuck is that?

    Sure, he was close to winning the World Title. Hell, plenty of people have been close to winning the title. Just in the past few years, Kennedy, Shelton, Umaga, Koslov, Bobby Lashley just to names several. It's one thing to get near the main event, it's a whole nother monster to win one.

    The question ain't about challenging for no title, sonny. It's about winning one.

    What's the point of this, other than giving out info most people on here already know? Just because Christian won a title in TNA, it doesn't mean he would've won one in the WWE during the same time period. Hell, R-Truth was a World Champion during the early days of TNA. Same with Rhino. Rhino.

    Once again, you're merely stating the facts. Nothing about what you've said is surprising. As I said before, Christian has really been nothing more than a career midcarder, making his placement when he came back into the company perfectly reasonable. Sure, a lot of members of the IWC were clamoring for him to be thrust into the title picture, but the IWC is stupid. If WWECW, I mean the latest version, was around earlier in Christian's career, that's surely where he would've ended up after parting ways with Edge.

    Just because the fans are behind someone, doesn't mean that they will or even should get a World Title run. Kofi is way over, but that doesn't mean he's getting the World Titel. You know why? Because he's a career midcarder, just like our buddy Chris.

    His previous stint with TNA

    The problem here is clearly the fact you're trying to put winning the WWE Title and TNA Title on the same level, which is clearly not the case, especially in the earlier days of TNA. Rhino.

    But he didn't get there. He was a contender, which doesn't really mean shit, when you look at it.

    Besides the fact that Christian isn't World Title material.
     
  5. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Not sure if you've noticed this but Jeff Hardy and CM Punk didn't win a thing during their stint with TNA. Neither of them got to hold the World Championship at any point. There is nothing in the history books that prove either man was ever associated in TNA concerning accomplishments (i.e. titles and such). So, the WWE can simply ignore their time with the rival company and develop them into their own stars. Hardy didn't use the success he attained from the E to do anything important in the A. People like Christian did... oh wait... it's not just Christian that it happened to, there have been others as well:

    Gail Kim: She debuted herself in the E and won the Women's Title, being a viable contender with the Diva's. Then, using the name that she garnered success from, went over to TNA and won the KnockOut's Title. Due to Gail Kim, TNA developed a successful women's division that was held in high-regard... always OUT-DOING the Diva's division the E had to offer (providing an alternative that attracted viewers). Hell, Gail Kim was responsible for some of the HIGHEST RATED segments of iMPACT! What happened when she signed back with the E?​

    Same situation for the same people. They used the name and success from the WWE to achieve much better accomplishments in the rival company (at times hurting the E), only to sign back and not receive the highest title they can achieve due to that previous run. Sure, Kim's title's aren't directly labeled "World" Titles, but they are the equivalent in the Women's Division.

    Jeff Hardy could be defined as a career mid-carder considering the accomplishments he had during his time in the E before he won the World Title. Let's take a look:

    Championships:

    • Tag Team (x7)
    • Hardcore (x3)
    • European
    • Lightweight
    • Intercontinental (x4)

    Hell, with the issues that Hardy has had in the past, that also provided a hinderance to him reaching the brass ring. Christian hasn't had anything major happen to him... so shouldn't that give him the edge? Both guys have proven to be very over with the crowd and connect with the audience. Wrestling-wise, although with two different styles where Jeff works a more riskier style than Christian, are on par. As for charisma, a big thing in the E, Christian has proven to be high on the mountain... something Jeff has had trouble with his entire career.

    Christian and Jeff Hardy were on the same level concerning place on the card, yet Christian was the outstanding star of the two in ways that could ensure the WWE for a beneficial World Champion. The only difference I can see was that Christian used his name to win the big one in the rival company and use their invested time to create more success, whilst Jeff didn't do anything.

    Kennedy has endured a couple of road-bumps in the way (such as injuries & Wellness Policies) that ultimately labeled as an "unsafe worker in the WWE environment," stalling his pushes. Shelton and Kozlov couldn't get over. Bobby Lashley wanted to became an MMA Fighter who used wrestling as a catalyst to gain fame. Umaga managed to stay relevant and in the ME scene after his title opportunity, and could potentially of gone on to win the big one on SD... but he refused to visit rehab (and sadly passed away). These have proven over the past.

    Christian is a safe worker who is over with the crowd. He hasn't had a desire to quit wrestling at this point and knows how to professionally wrestle. All the tools are there and if you can't see it you might need to go to an Optometrist.

    You have to challenge for a title before winning one.

    What I've based my argument around are pure facts... all you have been deciding to do is speculate, without any full-blown evidence. To say Christian can't win the World Title if he stayed with the E is completely asinine.

    And yet, he got a chance at the WWE Championship... something a career mid-carder doesn't get in a one-on-one opportunity. Example, Chris Masters had to qualify inside an Elimination Chamber to get anywhere near there.

    Again, without evidence, you can't thrust Christian down the card (something I've already gone over). Almost makes you apart of that IWC you were referring to.

    Being over is one aspect that someone needs to become a World Champion, which both Christian and Kofi have... however, Kofi has been performing below standard in the ring as of late. Ask Randy Orton. You can't put someone as the World Champion if they can't perform simple spots on TV. Christian has never had a complaint about his ring work.

    In the perfect world, they would be only one World Champion. This isn't the perfect world, so there will be more than one. Both TNA and the WWE titles are considered on the same level because they are both "World" championships.

    He remained a contender for the title until his contract expired and didn't sign another. Everyone else you have mentioned were either going through their "15 minutes of fame" or were unreliable.

    Er... he has held a World Title... twice.
     
  6. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    Just because they didn't win anything in TNA it doesn't mean they were still, uhh, in TNA. I really don't think simply because someone wins a title or two in TNA, the WWE suddenly believes that they can't push them, but if they didn't win a title, it's ok. Really, does it matter that much?

    They'll push whoever deserves pushing, brother. Punk and Hardy won titles in the WWE because they deserved to have the titles and be in the main event. Punk is better in the ring than Christian ever was and Hardy was more over than Christian ever was. That's why they won titles and Christian didn't, not because of a few forgettable title runs in TNA.

    Invalid argument due to no one giving a shit about women's wrestling, especially the WWE. Not comparable to Christian's situation at all.

    Yes, these things happen, but I'm still not seeing your point. Vince doesn't simply screw people out of title chances because they were successful in TNA, doesn't make any sense.

    Jeffy is significantly younger though. About 5 years, in fact. Jeff won his first title at age 30. Christian was already 32 by the time he left for TNA. His time has passed, and he knew it, which is why he went to a company where they routinely gives guys in the 40s and 50s the belt.

    Jeff got the title because he was over as shit at that time. They tried everything they could to keep it off him. I believe he had about 783 title matches before he finally was victorious. The big drug charges didn't even come till after he won it. Anyway, like I said, Jeff was more over at that time than Christian could ever have dreamed of. Take a listen.



    Once again, it's an asinine argument to say that because Jeff didn't win a title in TNA, he won one in the WWE. How does that make sense? And as I said, Jeff was more over than Christian ever was, and it's not like Christian left immeadiately after him and Edge split. He was stuck in PPV matches with the likes of Tomko during his singles career. Doesn't scream main event to me.

    Proving my point. You assumed that Christian being in the title hunt was the same as him winning the title, which clearly isn't true.

    Sure, Christian's pretty good, but is pretty good enough to win a world title? Of course not. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Christian, but what does he have that sets him apart from the crowd. You could say About a dozen guys are "a safe worker who is over with the crowd. He hasn't had a desire to quit wrestling at this point and knows how to professionally wrestle", but that doesn't mean they get a World Title. Matt Hardy, Mark Henry, Kofi, R-Truth, Chavo, Ziggler just to name a few. Like Christian, they're serviceable guys, but not the best of the bunch that'll go on to win World Titles.

    What have you said to convince me otherwise? Your argument is "He left, won some in TNA, and came back and hasn't won." How does that prove anything?

    As far as I know, Christian hasn't had a 1 on 1 for a title. The one with Cena at Vengeance 05 was a Triple Threat with Jericho involved as well. His only title shot, as far as I can tell. I can't fine a 1 on 1 title match anywhere, which even guys who haven't won a title, like Kennedy, have had.

    I wasn't thrusting him down the card, I was keeping him exactly where he's always been.

    Orton complains about everybody, including the Miz, just a few weeks ago. That's not reason for someone not to win a World Title. At their core, Kofi and Christian are virtually the same.

    Technically, they are, but realistically, are you telling me that it isn't easier to win the World Title in TNA than it is in the WWE? Really? In fact, Christian was never actually TNA World Heavyweight Champion, only NWA Champion, held by the likes of Ken Shammrock, R-Truth, Raven, and Rhino in TNA. Not exactly cream of the crop. Surely these guys wouldn't have the same success in the WWE.

    Like I said before, 1 title match.

    It's not even remotely the same. Rhino
     
  7. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Hardy and Punk haven't done anything for TNA that is noteworthy. For the most part, Punk was a member of one of Raven's various Flock stables and was just there. Hardy is another member of the roster who is just there. A man like Christian was pushed to the top of the company and stayed there, because of his numerous abilities. Hell, someone as over as R-Truth who is a safe worker and does everything that's asked of him has yet to hold a championship for a decent amount of time. Why would someone like Truth be pushed back?... that's right, he held the World Title in TNA and was involved in a team that stirred some controversy in the sports world with Pacman Jones, essentially promoting the name of TNA... any publicity is good publicity.

    It's not about the division, it's about the workers in a similar situation. To say Gail Kim hasn't gone through what Christian has is quite stupid. I can actually go as far as to say that CM Punk isn't categorised in the same playing field as his path didn't transition from:

    Success in WWE - More success in TNA - Low chances of success in WWE​

    Actually, it does.

    By having someone transition over into the WWE where they achieved the large amount of success in TNA, and allow them to gain more success than the E's current homegrown talents would essentially inform everyone that the rival company's wrestlers and ability to create credible stars is much better than the company the wrestler in question works for. By having a look at the examples we've both given this statement is true:

    Christian:

    TNA = successful
    WWE = not so much

    R-Truth:

    TNA = successful
    WWE = not so much

    Gail Kim:

    TNA = successful
    WWE = none

    Jeff Hardy:

    TNA = none
    WWE = successful

    CM Punk

    TNA = none
    WWE = successful

    Jeff might be younger, but that's about all he has to go on behind the kayfabe character of Jeff Hardy. He has drug problems that have been well-documented. He's had legal issues that are currently going on. He can't handle the pressure of a tight schedule as he wants to perform more recreational behaviours... in other words, he isn't dedicated to the business. Christian has none of those problems.

    Hell, the WWE have given the title to Triple H, Undertaker and Batista... men who are far into their age yet have been quite successful. Age is irrelevant.

    FYI, I was referring to his drug problems and such... not the charges. That happened as soon as they released him... and to my recollection, Hardy didn't even hold onto the championship for relatively long anyhow. Why... simple, they couldn't trust someone so unreliable to keep the belt warm for any longer. He might have been quite over, but that's only one of the aspects needed to clasp onto the championship (especially as a face who usually hang onto belts a lot longer than heels).

    Like a person with drug problems, does? I've already explained my point further up for most of this... however, Christian had some great success after he split. The tag team/feud he had with Chris Jericho is a perfect example of how Christian can hold his own and provide for some great wrestling.

    No, I was stating that Christian has credentials that everyone you stated didn't... thus questioning as to why Christian can't get a championship around his waste, yet these men can.

    Little contradictory on your view of Christian, but I'll play along.

    Kane was once considered apart of those "serviceable guys" and who remain a mid-carder for life. I'm pretty sure he has just won a World Championship and is being pushed in the biggest angle of SmackDown! Why? Because the WWE gave him a chance. If given the chance, Christian could do just as well with the belt.

    First mistake I've made thus far. My apologies... still, for Christian to be involved in the main event of a PPV that has John Cena, arguably the biggest face of the roster, and Chris Jericho, arguably the best worker on the roster... that's something a career mid-carder doesn't achieve too often. Hell, being involved in a long, drawn-out storyline with Chris Jericho and coming out on top isn't something a mid-carder would essentially achieve (considering Christian was a heel).

    Yes, someone being the face of the brand for basically the entirety of their stay and proving why they are championship material... despite being on the third brand. If Christian can do it on ECW... to which guys like Kane, Jack Swagger and CM Punk have done and gone on to win the World Title... what about Christian?

    It all comes back to one common factor. The WWE built those talents up and created their success... but they didn't do it with Christian.

    So, that should mean that Christian is better than The Miz then... someone who is being pushed and groomed to be the next big star and possibly the face of the E?

    Yet the WWE has allowed people like The Great Khali to become World Championship holders... what the hell has he done to deserve a championship opportunity?

    I've explained this above.

    Still a World Title.
     
  8. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    Truth isn't winning a World Title in the WWE because he's clearly not an a main event guy. Anyone who watches the wrestling can see that. The fact that you think a guy's chances of success in the WWE are completely destroyed by the fact that he held the TNA Title for a few months just doesn't make any sense. Explain to me why that's the case.

    They haven't gone through the same thing. Christian has came back into basically the same place on the card, where he's always been. His run as ECW Champ was a success, I'd say. Kim has basically done jack shit, but that may be more because of that big botch she had when she was in the title picture. And like I said, you can't measure anything up agains the Diva's Division, which clearly no one cares about.

    That may have happened for a few, but like I said, not for Christian. He was a midcarder before he left the company and has come back with a successful midcard run. Nothing has changed, really.

    Not at all. If they guys are talented, they'll get pushed to the top. Are you trying to tell me if CM Punk has a little 2 month title reign in TNA, he would never have been successful in the WWE, despite being one of the best and most talented guys in the company? I don't think so. If they're good, they'll get pushed eventually, regardless of their success elsewhere. Hell, Bryan Danielson was in the main event of Summerslam.

    The WWE could give a fuck about drug problems when it comes to champions. Hell, Shawn Michaels did about 10 lines of crack every morning back in the day. The bottom line is Jeff was younger, more talented, and more over. That's why he got the title and Christian didn't.

    Batista started late. He was still a "new star" when he won his first title. HHH and Undertaker are completely different. They're the biggest stars in the company, they'll get titles until they're 50. The only way the midcard guys are ever going to get a title is if they're young and still have potential to get better. Swagger, Sheamus, etc. Christian ain't getting any better.

    Never said Christian is a good westler. Just being a good wrestler doesn't mean World Title though. Not to go all KB on you, but if it was only about the wrestling, Dean Malenko and William Ragal would've main evented 10 Wrestlemanias in a row.

    Christian accumulated a ton of his credentials before he even left for TNA. The fact that he could win so many lower level titles just proves that he's always been at the same level. Not main eventers have that kind of resume because they move up to the World Title picture after winning just a few titles.

    Ya, at this point the WWE is just going nuts with the World Titles, handing them out left and right. Kane, Mysterio, the first time Sheamus got it. They'll give a World Title to basically anyone nowadays, maybe even Christian. But if that's the case, Christian's time in TNA ultimately wouldn't have mattered.

    The feud was more about Cena and Jericho than anything. Christian was just there to add a little something to the feud. His 1 title match is by no means proof that he was on the cusp of winning a World Title. He's had the same number of title matches as Mike Knox.

    Punk and Swagger are obviously not comparable. They were being built up as young and up and coming stars. And Kane's World Title has nothing to do with his time in ECW. He's just keeping it warm for Taker.

    Christian would be more comparable to guys like Matt Hardy and Mark Henry who held the ECW Title. Career midcarders helping to elevate other talent and make them look good.

    By your logic why haven't Hardy, Henry, Chavo and John Morrison won World Titles? They were successful in ECW as well. Your logic makes no sense here.

    Where did I say that Christian was better than the Miz? He's not. Miz is going to win a World Title while Christian isn't.

    He's a 7 foot tall giant from India. I'd say he's unique and indimidating enough to be a beliveable and intimidating champion.

    About how you were wrong. Duly noted.

    If you're still convinced that the NWA-TNA Title can be placed on the same level as the WWE Title, I don't really know what I can do for you. There's absolutely no way that's the case, I'm not sure how anyone could think otherwise. Rhino.

    One last thing to add, as far as when Christian left the WWE in the first place, which was actually because he was unhappy with his place on the card, which wasn't chaning anytime soon. Clearly he wasn't heading up to the main event anytime soon, making your whole argument quite invalid. Since Christian wasn't going to win the World Title in the WWE anyway, it truly didn't matter whether or not he went to TNA.
     
  9. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Apologies for my tardiness. I just finished a 16 hour shift (if you were wondering).

    The concern lies with the WWE and the wrestlers it has. They take many upon many guys in the business and give them a go. For those that break the glass barrier and impress the higher-up's enough get pushed/developed. The company is investing their own time into a wrestler who they think can provide success and ratings for the E, ultimately resulting in them making a profit. You can't deny that Christian was one of those people. He became apart of a dominating tag team that defeated some of the best teams that were on offer, providing some epic matches that did quite well. Even after the split, they gave him a push to the top by having feuds with one of the biggest stars at the time Chris Jericho... going as far as WrestleMania.

    Now, for all that time Christian was involved in the E, you again can't argue that the E spent a lot of their time investing into him and his character, building him up to a high credibility. For him to turn around and go to another company, at one of his peaks and use that success and invested time the E gave him to capture a much higher success... wouldn't you be peeved off?

    That ECW championship proved to the E that he can handle taking an entire brand and being it's face (for a lengthy period of time), where it contained people like Jack Swagger that would go on to compete for the World Championship and win it (who also held the ECW title). If others can do it, what's stopping the E pulling the trigger on Christian?

    None of them took what the E had down to them for granted and played with their ball in a smaller company to gain maximum success.

    Yeah, someone who is involved in a high-profile feud with Chris Jericho and coming out on top at the grandest stage of them all is a career mid-carder. :rolleyes:

    CM Punk hasn't used the success from the WWE to go somewhere else and gain more... I'm sure if he did that, won some World Titles and then come back to the E they'd slow him right down like they did with Christian. I'm guessing you haven't seen a lot of the returning superstars re-debut, have you?

    Christian has what it takes to get to the top. Guys like Punk and Bryan are over with the crowd, so is Christian. All three have skills to pull of some great matches both as workers AND as wrestlers, going as far as being the people to carry the match in some circumstances. Punk has a lot of charisma, so does Christian (not including his nickname, of course)... you get the picture.

    Yes they do. Rey Mysterio got suspended whilst he was champion, despite the fact that it was a "mis-understanding." Regardless, Michaels has a history of backstage connections that allowed him to wriggle himself out of situations... as for Jeff, he was quite over... but the talent? Doing the flippies and providing a dangerous moveset is something worth warranting a champion? If that's the case, give Evan Bourne the championship and keep it on him.

    When Christian re-debuted in the company, he was quite old at that point. However, he still showed that he can still go in the ring... providing long, drawn-out matches against opponents who, for the most part, were younger than him. He carried matches against Shelton Benjamin, a man renowned for his highly-athletic ability. That's saying something considering the stamina a pure athlete should have.

    Christian is both a good wrestler and a great worker, the type of person that the E likes to pit as their main guy. I agree, wrestlers don't get far unless they are able to work like a horse. Christian has been an excellent worker from day on. His ability to get the crowd's involved in the match is something most faces dream of having. It takes a lot of charisma to get the crowd to cheer for you, both willingly and when you want them to.

    Have you stopped to look at Kane's resume? He has tag team championship reigns in the double digits... and that's about the best success that he has had. Yet, he has received a decent run with the title.

    If Chris Jericho and John Cena were the main aspect of the match, then why did Christian need to be added? Storyline purposes? If the E didn't feel he was a World Title contender and didn't need to fill a random spot, they wouldn't have included Christian in the match.

    Yet, Punk and Swagger didn't hold the championship for as long as Christian did despite the brand having quite a lot of name value and potential/young stars on the brand. Why are we nullifying the comparison? Also, guys like Hardy and Henry had to lose the belt to put over someone whereas Christian didn't need to. He as a character is good enough to win and make the other guy look good. So having him as a World Champion would make sense... it allows the challengers to come off strong whilst still losing.

    All of them haven't got the entire package that someone like Christian displays. Matt Hardy isn't in shape or has the wrestling skills to be top guy, Henry has a lot of issues and Chavo/Morrison will never get over enough with the crowd to rise up to a high rank on the card.

    You didn't, but other workers did. Orton is one of the company's biggest stars and hasn't made a complaint about Christian at all... yet someone with a prospering future in the Miz can get a negative criticism from him?

    Not entirely about the World Title, it was the success he used to gain further success in another company and allow others to use the same success to get over. He was using the E's success in a different company for that company's advantages. That's how the E viewed the situation... on a business level. As Christian was given a second chance, he showed and performed at a level why he deserved to hold a World Title and retain the championship within his grasp, ultimately generating success for the company... yet the E has been too busy trying to not allow the other company to get an advantage by showing that how they built up Christian is good enough to take down the E's way of building up their own stars (i.e. Christian beating home-grown talents would make TNA look credible).
     
  10. gd

    gd Plump, Juicy User

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    The lady and I have agreed to end it here, with a few eloquent closing posts, no doubt. Prepare to be amazed.

    The Conclusion Of My Argument As To Why Christian Has Surely Not Been Affected By His Run In TNA, When It Comes To Whether He Will Be A World Champion In The WWE In 5 Easy Points

    1. Christian Is A Career Midcarder

    Nice guy, no doubt. Pretty good wrassler as well. Of course, it takes more than this to be World Champion. As I said, Christian's been in the midcard his whole life, entertaining fans and having some damn fine matches. Of course, it takes much more than that to become a World Champion. Christian's won a multitude of nice, but ultimately meaningless midcard titles, never ascending to anything higher. He's been level for basically his whole time in the company, while there's nothing to suggest he would suddenly make an unexpected and huge leap after so many years of being the same old guy.

    2. Christian Was Never On The Cusp Of A World Title

    Going along with the previous point, one of my opponent's main arguments was that Christian was just about to win the World Title before leaving the company, when, in fact, it was only 1 title match he was involved in, and that match was only a triple threat at a meaningless PPV. It was certainly no indication that he was suddenly about to win a World Title, as plenty of guys have been in title matches without winning a World Title, Morrison, Koslov, Kennedy, and Mike Knox just to name a few recent ones. In fact, that was the whole reason left the company, because he clearly wasn't going to be in the main event any time soon.

    3. The NWA-TNA Title Does The WWE Title

    One of Falkor's big arguments is that since Christian won a World Title in TNA whilst he was gone from the WWE, it meant that he clearly would've won one in the WWE because the titles are equal, which is clearly not the truth. TNA was an upstart company that had been around for only a few years. Hell, even nowadays, it's probably not considered equal, and it was even worse back then. R-Truth and Rhino are just a few of the names to hold the NWA-TNA Title. You can't tell me Rhino would ever be anywhere near the WWE Title. Rhino

    4. The Confusing Connect The Dots Logic Makes No Sense

    The connections he tries to make with only guys who didn't have success in TNA being the only ones who have success in the WWE don't really work at all. First off, it doesn't makes sense that a simple 2 month or so title reign will completely change the writers' or Vince's view on a wrestler. If they're good, they're fucking good. By using a few examples of people who were successful in TNA, Kim and Truth, you certainly can't prove it's a sure-fire thing that anything good you do in TNA means you're fucked in the WWE. Perhaps their lack of success is due to the fact that that clearly aren't that good, at least not anymore. It's certainly not the case with Christian, as he's the same guy, more or less, so he's come back in the exact same spot on the card.

    5. Rhino

    Just think about that for a second.

    A few things from the last post, before I go.

    - I meant to say I "never said Christian isn't a good wrestler." My mistake.
    - Kane winning the World Title now is different because it's happening in the "helter-skelter I don't give a fuck who wins the title anymore" era of the WWE, where Christian certainly could win a title at one point, but if he does, his run in TNA would be meaningless in the whole matter.
    - Hardy and Christian's respective runs as ECW Champ are most certainly

    I also reserve the right to come back and mention anything I may have forgotten.
     
  11. Viola Moonlight

    Viola Moonlight I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW

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    Closing Statement:​


    World Wrestling Entertainment is a company that conducts itself both in the professional wrestling world and the business world. For them to gain any profits and make sure their product is the best out there, they use their wrestlers accordingly and precisely to achieve maximum success... using how well they do in the wrestling world to convert into the business world. For someone like Christian, there are many reasons why he should be world champion:

    1) The Total Package: There is no doubt that Christian is a fine wrestler and an excellent worker. From what he can do in the ring, he definitely has what it takes to create some World Title worthy matches.

    2) He Is Over: The crowd respects Christian and is always been behind him. At the snap of his fingers, Christian can get the crowd going. With his wrestling abilities, the crowd have a tendency to initiate their own chants.

    3) Ability To Carry a Title/Brand: Take a look at ECW. Christian was able to hold the ECW title and take it for almost the entirety of his stay, defeating others who were younger and had loads of potential. Other champions in the past who were successful became World Champions and his reign could indicate that he would be one too.


    Despite all the evidence piling up that Christian would be a successful contender for the World Title on a brand that has a lack of starpower, why hasn't the E pulled the trigger? Well, Christian might qualify in the wrestling world he has something that is holding him back in the business world. The reason... Christian left the WWE and used the success that he gained from it/the time that the E invested into him to create a star to gain a lot more in their biggest threat (in wrestling). On his return to the company, the WWE could not (in a business sense) make the rival company look good by allowing one of TNA's successful wrestler that they built up to be a World Champion... defeat the WWE's home-grown talents and become a World Champion. It's happened to others before in the past, like Gail Kim who was the face of a division that gain a huge amount of success for the company. It's just not good business for the E.

    So yes, Christian going to TNA and having a successful run there has affected him to gain a World Championship opportunity.
     
  12. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    With the direction that this debate went, I'm disappointed that GD didn't bring up one point that would have been a surefire 2 points of persuasion for me.

    Clarity: Both had well thought out opening and closing arguments. GD had some mistakes but helped fix them at the end, and they weren't enough to take a point away.

    Point: Split

    Punctuation: FalKon said he was late. I went over to clarify, FalKon was actually on time.

    Point: Split

    Informative: This was a little difficult to decide upon. GD went more with an opinionated argument, and it was suited well for arguing. FalKon tried to use the having success in WWE for gain in TNA as an argument, but it didn't click with me.

    Point: General Disarray

    Persuasion: As I said above, with the way the debate went, I noticed that GD never said that it took Hardy three years to win the WWE Championship, or Punk two years to win, or R-Truth about two years to win the United States Champion. For me that would have been the dagger. Now, even though he didn't go that way, he did sway me. I love Christian, but TNA has not been that factor keeping him from a World Championship.

    Points: General Disarray

    CH David scores this General Disarray 4, FalKon 1.
     
  13. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Clarity of debate: Draw
    While both opened and closed nicely, keeping tight to the debate with any slip up.

    Punctuality: Draw
    Both guys were on time.

    Informative: Disarray
    Disarray provide slightly more info, even used youtube for evidence and corrected Falkon on an error.

    Persuasion: Falkon
    That being said on the info, I felt as each post went by Falkon kept giving me reason to believe TNA is the reason as to why Christian is being held back from the title. Plus the continuous mention of Rhino without following up on it was getting a tad annoying.

    Final Score
    Disarray: 2
    Falkon: 3
     
  14. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity of debate: FalKon
    Split the opening argument and rebuttal up, GD.

    Punctuality: Draw
    No punctuality issues with either guy here.

    Informative: Draw
    Lots of information here from both guys, and they both used their information effectively.

    Persuasion: Draw
    Great back and forth, guys. Too bad this can't continue forever, as I'd like to see which one of you would eventually cave in.

    Final Score
    Disarray: 2
    Falkon: 3
     
  15. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Whew... that was a good one. Very nice job here, guys.

    I'll sum it up nice and simple:

    This was a dead-even heat in every way except for one small factor; I really enjoyed the way that GD structured his replies with a combination of good information and video footage as proof.

    Final Score
    Disarray: 3
    Falkon: 2
     
  16. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    After a complete judge's tally, GD is the victor with 11 points to Falkon's 9.

    Congratulations and great debating from the both of you!
     
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