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[Hard Hit Prince]

Here's the thing: you can't prove the chair shots/headbutts/suplexes/everything else didn't make Benoit do that. Are kicks to the head and piledrivers worth taking the risk of it happening again? They certainly aren't to me, and I don't think they are to most others.

Look at brain damage in the NFL. It's very, very real and the effects are terrifying.

But it is also very, very hard to believe that that was the reason. Far worse examples can be put in here and none of those guys killed his family, if Benoit did it with less, why aren't other guys going nuts?

And you're overreacting, a Davey's match isn't made of kicks in the head, he probably gets like one or two kicks in the head in a 15 minute match, however he does work a lot with his feet, but most of the times it's kicking the body or pretty much "dancing" - and it's his gimmick, it's what made him successful and as long as he can tell a story with that, we should be pleased.

I'm pretty sure Daniel Bryan is using kicks a lot more often than Davey nowadays. Bryan running dropkick to the turnbuckle looks something that could probably knock me out easily. Also everybody botches, it doesn't matter if you are Owen Hart or Sin Cara, you'll botch some days, it's part of wrestling. Davey isn't a paramedic to try to kill people in the ring, he was worried with London's injury, he knew he fucked up. BJ Whitmer had his injury and he was the first to appear to help him.

 

[klunderbunker]

But it is also very, very hard to believe that that was the reason. Far worse examples can be put in here and none of those guys killed his family, if Benoit did it with less, why aren't other guys going nuts?

How do you know they won't? And again, it's not worth the risk.

And you're overreacting, a Davey's match isn't made of kicks in the head, he probably gets like one or two kicks in the head in a 15 minute match, however he does work a lot with his feet, but most of the times it's kicking the body or pretty much "dancing" - and it's his gimmick, it's what made him successful and as long as he can tell a story with that, we should be pleased.

Here's what I know: I've watched a lot of wrestling. Like, a whole lot. Davey Richards was so ridiculously boring and kick based that it made me change the channel. if that's what you like then so be it, but he is painfully uninteresting most of the time.

I'm pretty sure Daniel Bryan is using kicks a lot more often than Davey nowadays.

Is that supposed to make Davey more interesting? It doesn't.

Bryan running dropkick to the turnbuckle looks something that could probably knock me out easily. Also everybody botches, it doesn't matter if you are Owen Hart or Sin Cara, you'll botch some days, it's part of wrestling.

Name more than one Hulk Hogan (not Hollywood Hogan) botch. I can't think of any.

Davey isn't a paramedic to try to kill people in the ring, he was worried with London's injury, he knew he fucked up. BJ Whitmer had his injury and he was the first to appear to help him.

Oh yeah Whitmer: another guy with a neck injury from a move done to the head. Much like Austin, Edge, Angle, Benoit etc. Hence why they should be banned.

 

[Coco]

Hopefully this thread results in the sort of epic humiliation that leads to The History changing his name again.

 

[klunderbunker]

Nolan is the History?

Suddenly this makes so much more sense.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

No you can't, hence why he was on Smackdown most of the time: he wasn't good enough to be live on Raw.

But lets ignore when they brought him back to Raw for several months after they'd finally let him settle in and he didn't make a single mistake, right?

No but I do know more about it than you do, and I'm pretty certain those kicks would be less dangerous if they didn't exist. But then again what would I know?

Then like I said, and I was being serious, contact Chris Nowinski and join the fight. He needs all the help he can get.

Actually all he could have done to protect London was used something other than kicks.

You didn't see the match, very few kicks, he hit him with the foot stomp which isn't a kick, it is a stomp.

As for rolling him on his side, that wouldn't have been necessary had he knot knocked London silly would it?

Like I already said - and read it this time - how many wrestlers do you know who have not injured another. Gimme some names? And I'll throw back a laundry list of top names who have hurt another performer. Because it happens. It is wrestling. Not a pillow fight. Shit happens. You get over it.

 

[Gelgarin]

Here's the thing: you can't prove the chair shots/headbutts/suplexes/everything else didn't make Benoit do that.

Seriously?

Do me a favor, pick that one apart for yourself.

 

[klunderbunker]

But lets ignore when they brought him back to Raw for several months after they'd finally let him settle in and he didn't make a single mistake, right?

It's what you're doing with Richards so why not.

Then like I said, and I was being serious, contact Chris Nowinski and join the fight. He needs all the help he can get.

Yes, the fight against bloodthirsty fans who would rather cheer for someone being kicked in the head than care about the well being of the people they claim to be fans of.

You didn't see the match, very few kicks, he hit him with the foot stomp which isn't a kick, it is a stomp.

Feet meeting flesh with impact. Sounds like a kick to me.

Like I already said - and read it this time - how many wrestlers do you know who have not injured another. Gimme some names? And I'll throw back a laundry list of top names who have hurt another performer. Because it happens. It is wrestling. Not a pillow fight. Shit happens. You get over it.

Who haven't injured others? Very few. Wrestlers who don't wrestle a reckless style and call it American strong style to write it off? Hundreds.

 

[klunderbunker]

Seriously?

Do me a favor, pick that one apart for yourself.

I'll be watching CM Punk's Grammar Slam.

 

[Gelgarin]

Sigh. Fine, I'll do it myself.

Here's the thing: you can't prove the chair shots/headbutts/suplexes/everything else didn't make Benoit do that. Are kicks to the head and piledrivers worth taking the risk of it happening again.

You can't prove that open hand punches, steroids, over strong coffee, pyro fumes and having to listen to that awful music played at an ear splitting volume didn't contribute to the Benoit situation; but I think we're content to risk all of those. You can't prove anything is not causally involved, just like you can't prove that Unicorns don't exist. I don't ever particularly disagree with your argument (which is a say that I do disagree, I just don't think it's an inherently stupid argument) but that was a really fuckin' stupid way to express it.

Concussions on professional wrestling are a really big deal, the importance of which is seriously hampered by people persistently acting like fucking idiots whenever it is discussed.

Professional wrestling forums need their own version of Godwin's law, whereby the first person to invoke Benoit in a serious discussion automatically loses the debate - because it's almost never appropriate.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

It's what you're doing with Richards so why not.

Once again, if Bryan Danielson, a guy in the business, a guy who main events SummerSlam for the WWE this Sunday with John Cena for the WWE Championship believed Davey was a better wrestler than him, you have no argument. You have no say. And a source for these comments are Wrestling Road Diaries, he spends a good five minutes speaking about how Davey surpassed him.

Yes, the fight against bloodthirsty fans who would rather cheer for someone being kicked in the head than care about the well being of the people they claim to be fans of.

Soooo wrestling fans then? Good luck with that one.

Feet meeting flesh with impact. Sounds like a kick to me.

It can sound like whatever you wish it to sound like, it was a stomp to the chest that went wrong. On behalf of Davey Richards I apologize to you for him making a mistake, it won't happen again.

Who haven't injured others? Very few. Wrestlers who don't wrestle a reckless style and call it American strong style to write it off? Hundreds.

Its puro.

 

[klunderbunker]

Sigh. Fine, I'll do it myself.



You can't prove that open hand punches, steroids, over strong coffee, pyro fumes and having to listen to that awful music played at an ear splitting volume didn't contribute to the Benoit situation; but I think we're content to risk all of those. You can't prove anything is not causally involved, just like you can't prove that Unicorns don't exist. I don't ever particularly disagree with your argument (which is a say that I do disagree, I just don't think it's an inherently stupid argument) but that was a really fuckin' stupid way to express it.

Concussions on professional wrestling are a really big deal, the importance of which is seriously hampered by people persistently acting like fucking idiots whenever it is discussed.

Professional wrestling forums need their own version of Godwin's law, whereby the first person to invoke Benoit in a serious discussion automatically loses the debate - because it's almost never appropriate.

I prefer grammar slam.

I don't particularly see how Benoit is inappropriate to bring up. Is there a better case to discuss for head trauma in wrestling/

 

[Gelgarin]

When your entire argument is to wave Benoit (a man only tangentially connected to the issue) around like some kind of contemporary Boogie Man and expect it to validate your assertion that head kicks are bad - yeah, it's pretty inappropriate.

 

[klunderbunker]

Once again, if Bryan Danielson, a guy in the business, a guy who main events SummerSlam for the WWE this Sunday with John Cena for the WWE Championship believed Davey was a better wrestler than him, you have no argument. You have no say. And a source for these comments are Wrestling Road Diaries, he spends a good five minutes speaking about how Davey surpassed him.

This idea of "well so and so said this and therefore he's automatically right" doesn't work.

Using this logic, there is no need for movie critics, literary critics, people talking about the weather, people talking about music and a litany of other things. They can't predict it or do it themselves, so therefore they have no say in the matter right?

Bryan's opinion is his own opinion. I don't agree with it. If there's no point in debating these things, why have the forums at all? Instead we can just post what wrestlers said and be done with it.

Soooo wrestling fans then? Good luck with that one.

I'm a wrestling fan. I see no need for moves like kicks to the head or piledrivers or rolling German suplexes.

It can sound like whatever you wish it to sound like, it was a stomp to the chest that went wrong. On behalf of Davey Richards I apologize to you for him making a mistake, it won't happen again.

Given Richards' track record, I doubt it.

Its puro.

The Japanese word for "bad wrestling."

 

[klunderbunker]

When your entire argument is to wave Benoit (a man only tangentially connected to the issue) around like some kind of contemporary Boogie Man and expect it to validate your assertion that head kicks are bad - yeah, it's pretty inappropriate.

Not what I'm doing entirely.

For one thing, this started with Richards being bad because the majority of his offense is kick based, thereby making him one dimensional.

As for the shots to the head, I'd think I've listed more than just Benoit as reasons they're unnecessary.

 

[.]

https://twitter.com/IndiesWrestler

when i read this Twitter, Davey Richards is all i can think about.

 

[Gelgarin]

As for the shots to the head, I'd think I've listed more than just Benoit as reasons they're unnecessary.

Not so much. You've been banging the head kicks might make people kill their wife and child drum about as hard as you possibly can, despite it being a really stupid argument.

So to clarify, you're fine with someone getting his head kicked in and possibly becoming Benoit II as long as you get to enjoy the kicks?

Here's the thing: you can't prove the chair shots/headbutts/suplexes/everything else didn't make Benoit do that. Are kicks to the head and piledrivers worth taking the risk of it happening again? They certainly aren't to me, and I don't think they are to most others.

No but I do know more about it than you do, and I'm pretty certain those kicks would be less dangerous if they didn't exist. But then again what would I know?

But it is also very, very hard to believe that that was the reason. Far worse examples can be put in here and none of those guys killed his family, if Benoit did it with less, why aren't other guys going nuts?


How do you know they won't? And again, it's not worth the risk.

I legitimately couldn't find another reason you've posted in this thread why they should be outlawed. Point it out.

 

[klunderbunker]

Not so much. You've been banging the head kicks might make people kill their wife and child drum about as hard as you possibly can, despite it being a really stupid argument.









I legitimately couldn't find another reason you've posted in this thread why they should be outlawed. Point it out.

The mention of the shots to the head in the NFL and their effects.

 

[Gelgarin]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that American Football involved head kicks.

 

[klunderbunker]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that American Football involved head kicks.

The scarier thing about someone like Benoit is that it wasn't the direct shots to the head but rather body jarring hits that caused him to snap. That's more what I was trying to get across. The head kick thing came up because Richards' offense is so kick based.

 

[Gelgarin]

But that kind of jarring impact can be caused by pretty much any inexpertly executed throw, as can considerably worse injuries such as a broken neck. Now the normal excuse for this, which I subscribe to, is that these moves are being performed by trained professionals who are taught how to do them safely... except you've been banging the "we can't be sure this might not happen" drum over and over again during this discussion.

We've already seen a person crippled by a simple backdrop lift; we can't be sure that John Cena isn't going to fuck up and kill Danial Brian with a Protobomb on Sunday any more than we can be sure that Davey Richard's next opponent isn't going to go on to murder his wife and child due to head kicks. Neither of these is a remotely reasonable expectation, but if you're stance is "why take the risk" then it should at least be consistent.

A botched throw is more dangerous than a botched head-kick - which brings me on to another aspect of your "head kicks should be banned argument" which doesn't hold up. Head kicks aren't inherently dangerous. They're only potentially dangerous if the guy throwing them is stiffing his opponent - in which case exactly the same argument can be made for punches, forearm shots, elbows and knees - in fact you could actually do a fuck ton more damage from a head trauma perspective with each of those than you could with kicks to the head. Should we be outlawing strikes as well?

Take this together and, using the arguments that you've outlined in this thread, we should probably be outlawing any overhead throw, elevated lift or strike above the midsection.

I don't think that's a very farsighted solution to the problem, and making a ridiculous hoohar over cherry picked aspects of it only serves to take attention away from the actual reasonable steps that should be taken to protect wrestlers and their ilk.

 

[klunderbunker]

But that kind of jarring impact can be caused by pretty much any inexpertly executed throw, as can considerably worse injuries such as a broken neck. Now the normal excuse for this, which I subscribe to, is that these moves are being performed by trained professionals who are taught how to do them safely...

Completely agree.

except you've been banging the "we can't be sure this might not happen" drum over and over again during this discussion.

Indeed I have, because it could. We've seen it happen, though it is indeed the extreme end and so far a one off case.

We've already seen a person crippled by a simple backdrop lift; we can't be sure that John Cena isn't going to fuck up and kill Danial Brian with a Protobomb on Sunday any more than we can be sure that Davey Richard's next opponent isn't going to go on to murder his wife and child due to head kicks.

This brings me back to what you said about the trained professional part. Cena and Bryan are less likely to botch something like that due to their level of experience and training. We know that those two are going to work a safe style more often than not due to their track records. If Richards is facing someone who doesn't have that level of experience, we can't be as sure of that. Of course anything can happen at any time, but as you mentioned, it's less likely for a trained and experienced professional to cause such an injury.

Neither of these is a remotely reasonable expectation, but if you're stance is "why take the risk" then it should at least be consistent.

WWE has done that for the most part with the banning of most piledrivers and shots to the head on at least one of their shows. They've also toned down the German suplexes over the years which have kept more people's necks from being damaged and requiring surgery.

A botched throw is more dangerous than a botched head-kick - which brings me on to another aspect of your "head kicks should be banned argument" which doesn't hold up.

I never said I wanted them banned. I complained about them being used in excess. I wouldn't have a problem with them being banned though.

Head kicks aren't inherently dangerous. They're only potentially dangerous if the guy throwing them is stiffing his opponent - in which case exactly the same argument can be made for punches, forearm shots, elbows and knees -

Which is the style Richards uses, and is a style not often seen in WWE or TNA.

in fact you could actually do a fuck ton more damage from a head trauma perspective with each of those than you could with kicks to the head. Should we be outlawing strikes as well?

Excessively hard and repetitive strikes such as those used in strong style, likely so.

Take this together and, using the arguments that you've outlined in this thread, we should probably be outlawing any overhead throw, elevated lift or strike above the midsection.

The excessive and repetitive usage of them in an unsafe manner, probably so.

I don't think that's a very farsighted solution to the problem, and making a ridiculous hoohar over cherry picked aspects of it only serves to take attention away from the actual reasonable steps that should be taken to protect wrestlers and their ilk.

A good solution for me would be to ban the strong style, as it's the sloppy and excessive force style you mentioned.

 

[Gelgarin]

You can't ban the strong style any more than you can ban "being unsafe" - it's not a reasonable idea. Guy's are going to get hit and dropped - that can't be removed from professional wrestling, and you can't regulate how hard a guy can be hit or dropped because it's not a measurable scale. Guy's shouldn't act like wankers in the indies, but unless you're in the ring, you've strapped sensors to the competitors limbs or you're watching a New Jack match, it's incredibly hard to tell how potentially hazardous a performer is. You see a lot of head kicks and automatically assume dangerous performer - but that's failing to consider a myriad of other factors such as scheduling and how good Davie Richards is a pulling his kicks (I have no fucking idea, but if his offence is as one dimensional as you claim then I'd imagine he's gotten pretty good at it).

Additionally I have to point out that, when performed properly in a sensibly constructed environment, the strong style isn't a problem. As I alluded to in the previous paragraph, scheduling and medical observation are the areas that a person should be looking at if they want to address the problem of head trauma in professional wrestling - not random-move-de-juer that people feel like obsessing over. First it was chair shots, now it's kicks, next it'll be backdrops and then clotheslines... and we'll still be no closer to solving the problem. This is why I get short with the idiotic parroting of the "Professional wrestlers shouldn't do that - it's dangerous!" rhetoric.

Blows to the head should be avoided when unnecessary - builders wear hard hats for a reason - but there are professions out there where head trauma is an unavoidable consivence. You can't take the head trauma out of boxing, MMA, American Football or Professonal Wresting - and unless you want to ban those sports (not totally unreasonable) then trying to change their content to make them "safe" is utterly missing the point.

The real solution, in all the sports I've mentioned (though most are well ahead of pro wrestling in this regard) is to pay a fuckton more attention to what happens when guys aren't performing. Boxer's don't fight every week for a very good reason, and pro wrestlers should not be bumping four times a week with no time off to heal for a very similar one. Head trauma isn't inherently bad - it's repeated head trauma with no recovery time that becomes a problem. Similarly, wrestlers should be submitting to extensive medical screenings to monitor for things like concussions when they do happen. To save a thousand words of discourse on how to regulate the industry, guys need time off or reduced schedules or preferably both.

You can't stop professional wrestling being dangerous, that's ludicrous. You have to address the actual problem, not the perceived cause.

Not that head trauma is ever the biggest health problems professional wrestling has. Heart failure holds than honour, and it ain't really close.

 

[klunderbunker]

You can't ban the strong style any more than you can ban "being unsafe" - it's not a reasonable idea. Guy's are going to get hit and dropped - that can't be removed from professional wrestling, and you can't regulate how hard a guy can be hit or dropped because it's not a measurable scale. Guy's shouldn't act like wankers in the indies, but unless you're in the ring, you've strapped sensors to the competitors limbs or you're watching a New Jack match, it's incredibly hard to tell how potentially hazardous a performer is. You see a lot of head kicks and automatically assume dangerous performer - but that's failing to consider a myriad of other factors such as scheduling and how good Davie Richards is a pulling his kicks (I have no fucking idea, but if his offence is as one dimensional as you claim then I'd imagine he's gotten pretty good at it).

I don't assume Richards is a dangerous performer because he does a lot of kicks. I assume he's a dangerous performer because of how many times I've heard of him either knocking someone silly or being knocked silly himself.

Also stay on one topic. Stick with either professional wrestling or New Jack. You can't have both.

Additionally I have to point out that, when performed properly in a sensibly constructed environment, the strong style isn't a problem. As I alluded to in the previous paragraph, scheduling and medical observation are the areas that a person should be looking at if they want to address the problem of head trauma in professional wrestling - not random-move-de-juer that people feel like obsessing over. First it was chair shots, now it's kicks, next it'll be backdrops and then clotheslines... and we'll still be no closer to solving the problem. This is why I get short with the idiotic parroting of the "Professional wrestlers shouldn't do that - it's dangerous!" rhetoric.

That's basically WWE anymore, which is a good thing. It's practically impossible to have that kind of medical care available elsewhere other than maybe TNA.

Blows to the head should be avoided when unnecessary - builders wear hard hats for a reason - but there are professions out there where head trauma is an unavoidable consivence. You can't take the head trauma out of boxing, MMA, American Football or Professonal Wresting - and unless you want to ban those sports (not totally unreasonable) then trying to change their content to make them "safe" is utterly missing the point.

That's the crux of what got this whole thing started: Richards needs to mix up his offense more often. I don't find him so much dangerous but rather really repetitive.

The real solution, in all the sports I've mentioned (though most are well ahead of pro wrestling in this regard) is to bay a fuckton more attention to what happens when guys aren't performing. Boxer's don't fight every week for a very good reason, and pro wrestlers should not be bumping four times a week with no time off to heal for a very similar one. Head trauma isn't inherently bad - it's repeated head trauma with no recovery time that becomes a problem.

Such as from the rolling German suplexes which I mentioned earlier.

Similarly, wrestlers should be submitting to extensive medical screenings to monitor for things like concussions when they do happen.

I'd assume you don't follow American football or the concussion problems being brought up recently but that's pretty much the main solution proposed.

To save a thousand words of discourse on how to regulate the industry, guys need time off or reduced schedules or preferably both.

This is true. Things are better now though in WWE with less gimmick/weapons matches and a shift to a safer style.

You can't stop professional wrestling being dangerous, that's ludicrous.

Completely agree.

You have to address the actual problem, not the perceived cause.

Which has been done, primarily through toning down the amount of repetitive high impact blows.

Not that head trauma is ever the biggest health problems professional wrestling has. Heart failure holds than honour, and it ain't really close.

Which hopefully the Wellness system can help slow down.

 

[Gelgarin]

It's practically impossible to have that kind of medical care available elsewhere other than maybe TNA.

If I was in the mood to go on a legislative flight of fancy I'd say professional wrestling, boxing and the like should require a permit (as it does already in a lot of places) that expires regularly and requires a medical screening to renew. Prohibitively expensive, but the indies can sort themselves out.

Such as from the rolling German suplexes which I mentioned earlier.

No, no, no. I mean you spend the evening accumulating whiplash head traumas. They you travel to another town and spend the evening doing exactly the same thing. Repeat ad infinitude or until one of your quads tears itself out of self defense.

Rolling Germans are perfectly fine.

I'd assume you don't follow American football or the concussion problems being brought up recently but that's pretty much the main solution proposed.

I don't, but good. That's probably because it's the only solution proposed by anyone anywhere that makes a lick of sense.

 

[klunderbunker]

Rolling Germans are perfectly fine.

Benoit, Angle and Edge all did that spot over and over and all required major neck surgery. That doesn't sound perfectly fine to me. The neck isn't designed to take all that weight crashing down on it over and over again night after night.

I don't, but good. That's probably because it's the only solution proposed by anyone anywhere that makes a lick of sense.

Indeed it is. The Benoit situation caused a lot of the new research to start.