Before I get started on this I just want to make sure you understand that I have the utmost respect for Will as a person and recognise he is entitled to his beliefs. This is in no way a personal attack, but rather an attempt to continue a debate. I am merely reacting to a point.
Sam, I wouldn't take any type of offense to what you, or anyone else would have to say regarding religion. The only people I generally dislike regarding religion, are those who refuse to think everyone should have their own opinion, especially if it isn't what "they" believe in.
I'm open to believing anything is possible, I don't know how many times I've said, or will continue to say that. And noone, religious or otherwise, is going to make me believe one set of anything, unless it can without a shadow of a doubt be proven true. With all that said.. you, my friend, have my respect in whatever your opinion is, even especially if it isn't my own.
If you do subscribe to the theory that God is all powerful, which I believe the Bible teaches, why not merely create perfect humans, ones that require no teaching and will not be tempted by things that aren't "pure"? If he's not all-powerful, it's a valid point. It is, however, contradicted by the fact that there's no remotely conclusive evidence God exists.
In my belief, the reason God didn't creat everyone perfect, is because how can you learn whats right & wrong? How can you live for yourself, or think for yourself? The human condition is to make mistakes.. & then to learn from them.
Noone in life can say they haven't did one thing that was wrong, or something in which they had to decide a path. Noone can say that they didn't have an at least small thought on having to decide upon one thing or another. That is what humans, to me, are. We have free will, & complete control to make our own decisions. If God made us perfect, without flaw.. then we wouldn't likely be where we are today. Because (again, my theory) I'm sure we've made several mistakes, to find the ultimate path.
I agree with you almost fully. However, I have no ideas why these feelings of self-belief and self-confidence cannot be presence without God. I believe it can be, and is. However, I believe the fact that religious people have these sorts of reactions faster and recover more often is merely a psychological reaction and nothing supernatural. What God wants doesn't factor into my life at all, although I like to believe I'm a good person; I don't go out of my way to hurt other people's feelings and am generally friendly, I rarely do anything that would be considered out of the ordinary or mean.
Like I said, perhaps its more of a mindset that people who believe a religious power is watching over them, helps them to succeed more. Its a personal belief in themselves, its what each person has to get by. You said you feel you're a good person, & you're generally happy with yourself, without knowing it has anything to do with God.
Thats not a bad thing, thats your decision to make. Thats your belief to have. However, just like when a religious person believes some "higher being" to be watching over them.. its not to say its a lie. Whereas just like you say God has nothing to do with it, its also not to say its a lie. Its really a stale-mate of sorts, as neither side can conclusively prove the other wrong, without a shadow of a doubt.
Sorry if this feels a little raw, but I believe that your last point merely validates mine more. It's the old "miracles are all around" argument. Well, yes, they are all around if you choose to merely point to the good aspects of life and say "that's a miracle". If you look hard enough for something, you'll often end up seeing it, even if it's not truly there.
Its very true that if you look hard enough to see something, your mind will create the illusions for you. Just like for me, for example.. I guess if I believe no matter what I do, something will always go wrong in the time between Thanksgiving & the end of Jan.. that I'll always find a way to create that to come true.
However you can't discount that there have been rare occurrences that have happened, in which all logic escapes. If you ask me what, I'd really have to think to find them, but I'm sure I could. (this is where someone who knows the bible, or history in general would come in more handy)
As far as pointing out everything good, claiming it to be a miracle, no, thats not what "I" would consider a miracle to be. Winning $20.00 off a lottery ticket, its a nice surprise.. not a miracle. Having your name drawn in a raffle, & winning a car.. again, its a great surprise.. not a miracle.
I see a miracle being something that is given to someone who doesn't "want" it, but instead "needs" it & simply can't get that on their own. Such as a mystical cure to something doctor's couldn't explain. A disease that randomly cured itself, which has happened.
If you take a closer look at life, I think the old phrase "life isn't fair" sums it up. You talk of balance; there is none. There's a remarkable amount when you compare to humanity's earlier stages; ironically, those when we were more spiritual, but there's still very little. The greedy and the "evil" often gain more than the selfless and the kind. The poor get poorer and the rich get richer. There's next to no balance and things, unless a human intervenes, do not fix themselves.
I think you're looking too hard at the negative things, to see all the positive things that balance it out though. Yes, crime rates are high, poverty & homeless situations are at outrageous numbers.. but that doesn't mean they out-weigh situations that balance.
You talk about rich getting richer, & poor getting poorer.. but do those rich people have the love of friendships, or solid family? Do they have the type of unity that poor people have? I highly doubt it. Because one of the negative sides of being rich, is you become greedy, & then untrusting. You never know who is true, & who is just after your money.
Personally, I'd love to be rich.. but I'd never wish to give up the feeling of true love for anything. And if it took living in a box, behind some rundown restaurant, eating trash.. as long as I had the true love of someone that made me happy to be alive, as long as I had my own happiness, its all I feel I'd need.
Of course I'd never wish or hope to be that low in life, but its an example of saying.. just because things don't look like they're the greatest, don't mean they aren't equally balanced out. Its all on how you look at it.
I don't really want to question you here as, by some cosmic coincidence, you could be right. However, I'd say your theory is like any other religious theory, without conclusive backing. Of course, it's fine for people to believe it, but I believe it's wrong.
Well, like I said. I'm definately not discounting that it isn't true. I'm not discounting that when you die, you're simply dead. I don't know what life is. I don't understand what keeps us alive, breathing, seeing, speaking. I don't understand what keeps us driven. Does that make sense?
As a result, I don't know where we'll go upon passing away. I like to believe there could be a Heaven, or a chance to relive this life over, or go into another one for that matter.
I've said it several times, I've been through world's of personal demons & hellish events. I've had my share of pain, & honestly at times I feel it doesn't equal out to the same amount of happiness. (But its not to say it doesn't, its again, all on how you see it) However, that all being said. I'd relive this life, through the world of torment & personal hell I've had.. simply to relive less than a handful of moments that make me love this life, regardless of the pain it brings.
Simple: coincidence. The universe is vast, uncaring and chaotic. We're not here on purpose. We're not here by mistake. We're just here.
That sounds like more of an opinion than a fact though. And as such, you, just like "I", have no solid proof that thats true. You mentioned the bible thinking the earth is only thousands of years old, whereas science claims its billions. The one thing I've come to learn, is while the bible may or may not hold truth.. it was written by man, & anything man says, can't always be taken for solid truthfulness, without questioning if something was even in the slightest, taken out of context.
Like I've said before, it's near impossible to prove a negative, particularly on these massive proportions. Absolute, conclusive proof is non-existent, for anything. Even the fact that we live this life is not conclusive evidence that it exists. However, the massive likelihood is that it is. Therefore, I live by what is most likely. What is most likely? That we're on our own on this desolate rock, for no purpose but that we give ourselves? Or that we're being watched by an omnipotent being that has a perfect plan for everything, no matter how imperfect everything may seem?
I'll go for the former.
Just like you said, I can not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt God is or isn't real. That we do or don't exist for a purpose, or that we're merely just "here." Its all in what you decide to believe.
My only question would truly be, what makes you not believe in God? Was it something cruel that happened upon childhood? Was it a prayer that never got answered? Or was it merely you don't want to put faith in the in-explainable?
I wanted to hate the belief of God so much when I lost my ex-fiance'. I wanted to take my own life, because I felt nothing was simply worth anything anymore, & I couldn't find an explanation on why God didn't intervene & help us to work. But that was me hating more of myself, & the course of life that just happens. You can't "make" one person see what you see, or live what you live.
And in that time, perhaps the "miracle" that truly happened was that I was allowed to see what I would've never seen before, in that I mean.. I found personal happiness in myself. I found personal belief that I would survive without anyone, without a relationship. And in that, I believe thats what God wanted for me to see, all along. So by that.. unfortunately, it takes a huge fall, to see the slight light. But even the smallest amount of light seen, would go further than the deepest fall. (if that makes sense to you)
Finally, had it not been for all of that. I would've never found my way to here, I would've never came across Erin, which in turn wouldn't of likely lead me to the forums, which finally connected me to Rebecca.. & who knows where my life will lead me next. Be it great things or the hardest issues.. all I know is, I'm just constantly looking around the next corner, constantly wondering what'll be next in this life.
