Where's the justification for the punishment? It's not just a withholding of a reward, it's the eternal damnation of hell that we're talking about.
On Religion & Faith - On Atheism & Lack Thereof
- Thread starter SalvIsWin
- Start date
Where's the justification for the punishment? It's not just a withholding of a reward, it's the eternal damnation of hell that we're talking about.
Truth. There has been evidence of a great flood happening. As a matter of fact many old civilizations have evidence of a great flood happening. The tower of babel really does seem like something that humans would do and a reaction that God would have. Adam and Eve is the same thing. Those stories tell that there are consequences for not respecting God's will.
So I am assuming from this that you think the world is several thousand years old, and you don't believe in evolution? What do you say to the evidence that would contradict this?
Well I'm kinda ashamed to say I havent looked into the world age thing. But as evolution goes I can lead to to my source for when I have questions about the bible http://www.gotquestions.org/flaws-theory-evolution.html
I've been long since overdue to get to this one. My apologies.
My opinion on God and religion? They're two entirely different things. To me, religion is adhering to a set of principles one is told to by a pastor/priest because it's based on obligation, or how they were raised. As for God, I believe in, and do, have a personal relationship with him. Do I live my life by certain principles and beliefs? Sure I do. But that's based solely on what I believe is right, and what I feel God has put on my heart. There's no obligation there except to the God I have a personal relationship with.
My position on athiests? They're my favorite group of people to talk to. I love having intelligent discussions with people I differ with. In fact, they have far more science on their side then I do mine, and most Ive encountered are well-informed about it. I loved reading and listening to Christopher Hitchens, and Harthan and JGlass are two athiests on here Ive had several religious conversations with, and have quite enjoyed. I respect their beliefs, and consider myself more well-informed having talked to them.
The only problem I have with some less then intelligent athiests is this: I've had several people ask me; "If your God is so great, why does he allow famine, fire, flood, and natural disasters?" To those people, you can't have it both ways. If you don't believe in God, how is he responsible for those things?
The reasoning? I've experienced God moving in my own life. I was born and raised in a Christian home, but it didn't become real to me until I was 25. I met a woman who is now my wife who exuded the love of God off of her. When I was around her, I truly felt like I was closer to God by proxy through her. It's not something I can explain, but it's faith. I've seen too many things and heard too many stories about miraculous events taking place that it's impossible for me to consider them anything but acts of God. Further, the more I attempt to draw closer to God, the more I feel he draws close to me, like a healthy personal relationship does. Pretty sweet, eh?
Dying and finding out that God was a figment of my imagination, a made up belief. But there's nothing in this physical world, no science, that could change my mind.
Misunderstood? That religion is simply a crutch, or a "go to" thing for those in duress, or weak-minded people. As a psychologist, I'm both a scientist of the brain and of it's chemistry. I like to think of myself as being pretty strong-minded, and capable of standing on my own two feet. And I know plenty of people that feel exactly the same.
The other thing I feel that's misunderstood is faith. I have faith in my wife that she won't cheat on, or ever leave me, just as I have faith that Christ is the Son of God who died for my sins. Can I prove either? No. But I believe them nonetheless. So many people believe that this thing called faith is just a way of avoiding admittance that I have no proof for my beliefs. Well, for many of my beliefs, I don't. That's why I have faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen, you know?
The positives regarding it, and the overall message. So many people point to the Old Testament as being harsh and cruel, and perhaps it was. But when Christ came, he abolished most of the OT, establishing things such as grace, mercy, and hope. Those may seem like such simplistic things, but to live a life free of feelings of condemnation and guilt is a wonderful life to live. No scientific evidence could ever take those things away from me.
My opinion on God and religion? They're two entirely different things. To me, religion is adhering to a set of principles one is told to by a pastor/priest because it's based on obligation, or how they were raised. As for God, I believe in, and do, have a personal relationship with him. Do I live my life by certain principles and beliefs? Sure I do. But that's based solely on what I believe is right, and what I feel God has put on my heart. There's no obligation there except to the God I have a personal relationship with.
My position on athiests? They're my favorite group of people to talk to. I love having intelligent discussions with people I differ with. In fact, they have far more science on their side then I do mine, and most Ive encountered are well-informed about it. I loved reading and listening to Christopher Hitchens, and Harthan and JGlass are two athiests on here Ive had several religious conversations with, and have quite enjoyed. I respect their beliefs, and consider myself more well-informed having talked to them.
The only problem I have with some less then intelligent athiests is this: I've had several people ask me; "If your God is so great, why does he allow famine, fire, flood, and natural disasters?" To those people, you can't have it both ways. If you don't believe in God, how is he responsible for those things?
The reasoning? I've experienced God moving in my own life. I was born and raised in a Christian home, but it didn't become real to me until I was 25. I met a woman who is now my wife who exuded the love of God off of her. When I was around her, I truly felt like I was closer to God by proxy through her. It's not something I can explain, but it's faith. I've seen too many things and heard too many stories about miraculous events taking place that it's impossible for me to consider them anything but acts of God. Further, the more I attempt to draw closer to God, the more I feel he draws close to me, like a healthy personal relationship does. Pretty sweet, eh?
Dying and finding out that God was a figment of my imagination, a made up belief. But there's nothing in this physical world, no science, that could change my mind.
Misunderstood? That religion is simply a crutch, or a "go to" thing for those in duress, or weak-minded people. As a psychologist, I'm both a scientist of the brain and of it's chemistry. I like to think of myself as being pretty strong-minded, and capable of standing on my own two feet. And I know plenty of people that feel exactly the same.
The other thing I feel that's misunderstood is faith. I have faith in my wife that she won't cheat on, or ever leave me, just as I have faith that Christ is the Son of God who died for my sins. Can I prove either? No. But I believe them nonetheless. So many people believe that this thing called faith is just a way of avoiding admittance that I have no proof for my beliefs. Well, for many of my beliefs, I don't. That's why I have faith, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen, you know?
The positives regarding it, and the overall message. So many people point to the Old Testament as being harsh and cruel, and perhaps it was. But when Christ came, he abolished most of the OT, establishing things such as grace, mercy, and hope. Those may seem like such simplistic things, but to live a life free of feelings of condemnation and guilt is a wonderful life to live. No scientific evidence could ever take those things away from me.
Questions for the believer
- What is your exact position on God & religion, and on Atheists?
Atheists have their rights. Let's face it, the more public figures of Christianity haven't been as friendly as they claim God to be. Religion is about love and harmony. But we've all grown up to see it as a discipline. Another thing religious people forget is that God made humans different by giving us free will. Funny enough, humans want to force us into Christianity. And ignore that free will God gave us.
- What is the reasoning for your personal belief?
Despite the constant shoving of Christian beliefs and rules, I was always surrounded by a peaceful environment. Adding to that is being taught of the Bible. And how you decide how to view it. When you think about it, most of the rules set are designed with an idea of order and how to live a peaceful life as opposed to being obligated guidelines. It's the people who wanna force it on you.'
- Hypothetically, what would it take for you to change your beliefs on God & your religion?
I've heard a lot of stuff on religion. How God is, by definition, an alien. How that "flaming carriage" that took Elijah to heaven is pretty much a spaceship and such. Yeah, it's something I got heavily tested on. I guess death is the only thing. To those who follow Christianity, we live in wait for the return of God or for us to head to the afterlife once we die in this mortal world. My idea is that I'll keep being as good as I believe I am and hope that when I die I head for heaven. If there's no God, I guess I'll be stuck underground with the worms.
- What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about your religion, and/or your belief?
For one, "God loves all". People lose sight of that quote. They go on rants about how God disapproves of homosexuality when in reality it's the act of sodomy that should be frowned upon. It has degenerated the message Christianity is supposed to be sending because people want to force it.
- What stock do you put into the Old Testament? Not true? Completely true? An interpretation of the truth?
I guess I'll go with true. I mean, they did discover Noah ark if I recall. Not to mention how it's how I believe dinosaurs became extinct. I don't recall where, but it is mentioned that dinosaurs were crossbred animals and as such not pure or made by God and the reason God caused the flood was because civilization was just too revolting. Imagine. If God is real and watching and today's crime infested world isn't deemed "flood-worthy" just how bad was it back then? Christianity is a hell of a mystery. But just like with wrestling, we suspend our disbelief out of faith in it.
I agree with this. I can't stand primitive arguments from either side, but especially from atheists because I am one.
I disagree with some of this. I don't think it's appropriate to say faith in the scenario you described with your wife. I'm assuming a lot here, but I assume that you've wife hasn't cheated on you before, and I assume that you know she feels strongly against cheating, and I assume you would regard her as a person of high moral fiber. I would say those are a form of soft evidence and thus it's a pretty reasonable conclusion to reach, I don't think I'd call it faith - but that's a semantics argument that's really not too important to your overall post.
I'm pretty sure you're referencing the 1993 'documentary' by CBS titled, "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark". This was actually a hoax. What happened was that CBS would air literalist bible documentaries from a group called Sun International Pictures. Sun International Pictures didn't bother to do any research or really look for any evidence before making their documentary, they only cared if it was pro-bible. So Gerald Larue & George Jammal worked together and successfully hoaxed both the network and the film company into airing a documentary based on no evidence, and only the testimony of Jammal who pretended to have been eye-witness to the ark on top of a mountain.
------------------------------------
Further question for the religious folk:
I noticed a lot of you have said nothing would change your mind, that there is no science that could come out that would make you rethink your position. Here's a multi-part question:
- Are you saying that no matter what science said you wouldn't change your mind because you don't trust science, or is it because you don't think there is a science that could possibly be epic enough to cast doubt on God?
- To follow that up - Quantum physics is developing theories that would suggest that ( 1 ) Parallel universes can/do exist. ( 2 ) This universe has a beginning and a end, but that a cycle continues infinitely. AKA, we could explain this universes' origin.
Would that change your mind if shown to be true?
Abiogenesis. The work of a Nobel prize winner in the matter is neatly sumarised in this video.
[YOUTUBE]U6QYDdgP9eg[/YOUTUBE]
Yeah, that site is down right wrong at points. Especially about Microevolution and Macroevolution.
'Twas disproven, I believe. And in any case, the wood would have rotten away so it couldn't be found.
Wouldn't explain the different layers of dinosaurs in the fossil record, or the fact that Dinosaurs were long since extinct long before our distant ancestors were standing on their own two feet. Evidence for that is present in the fossil record.
Yeah, aside from the time being off by a few dozen million years you couldn't create crossbred animals and end up with a new species. That's actually the definition of a specie. A donkey and a horse when mated do not produce a new species of animal. It makes a mule. Which is sterile.
Simply put, if the world of the dinosaurs was floodworthy we wouldn't have been there to build a boat.
I wouldn't say I was brought up in an "atheist household". It was secular, sure, but religion was almost never discussed. Not because it's a touchy subject (which, by the way, it shouldn't be in society), it just didn't happen that often. My parents are both atheists, but they are a lot more tolerant of religion than I am.
There's no doubt in my mind that being born into a non-religious family has shaped my beliefs somewhat. But I would put my firm, Richard Dawkins-loving atheism down to a mixture of rationality and, you know, intelligence.
Proof. Some irrefutable, reliable, valid proof.
That atheism is close-minded. It's the most stupid fucking thing for someone to say. Especially when it's said by someone who believes in a certain dogma. I mean seriously, you can't get more hypocritical than that. Science is open to change, religion is not.
Absolutely not. I'm pretty much certain that I'm right. That sounds arrogant, but I don't think there's a way of saying "I'm right" without sounding a tad over-confident. If you're looking at whether a god exists, atheism has every scientific finding ever made by mankind on it's side. Religion has a collection of short stories.
That atheism is a broad church (yes, I know, irony...). Not every atheist is "militant". Many, many atheists just get on with their lives, keeping themselves to themselves and not wishing to enter theological debates. I, on the other hand, reserve the right to mock you if you believe there's a big man in the sky who cares about everything you do.
FitFinlay4Life
What's the craic?
Sorry for the slow response, the main example I can give is Noah's Flood. Now there are many examples of the scientific, historic and theological proof that it did happen, but science cannot find the reasoning how it could happen.
Now, there are scientists who try to refute the findings but, then again, religion tries to refute scientific findings too. Should the same rules not apply to both sides of the fence?
At the end of the day, most things in science are referred to as theories and most things in religion are taken on faith. However, science has one big advantage - most scientific theory is new, whereas religious faith is built on history millenia old, hence harder to prove.
As I first stated, there are many many geniuses and experts who can argue why science is right, why religion is right and why one religion is more right than another. I'm sure that they can all put up brilliant cases to laymen and I'm equally sure they'll be just as good at circular arguments with each other.
If religions are right, I'm not aware of any that accept agnostics into 'heaven', so I'm screwed as far as everlasting salvation. If atheists are right and there is no higher power then I'm no worse off. Guess I'll just continue trying to be the best me I can be, after all, we're all here for a good time not a long time, right?
Bull. There's no scientific evidence that Noah's flood. There is however plenty that goes against it.
Also, find one valid historical source that verfies Noah's flood. Excluding religious texts.
Yes and no. Yes scientific theories should be challenged. However they should be challenged with evidence. Not beliefs.
Ok, I'm going to put this simply. The scientific usage of the word theory is different from the common usage. Common usage is synonymous with guess. The scientific usage is an explanation of the accepted, verified peer reviewed facts. In case you've forgotten gravity is just a theory too.
And age has nothing to do with it. Lots of scientific data is millions of years old. Like the geological evidence that points to there being no worldwide flooding, or the fossils which provide evidence against there being a creator.
And then there are millions of peer reviewed papers providing definitive evidence that there's no need for a god. At all.
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Questions for the person who just hasn't decided
What is holding you back from being one side of the discussion instead of the other?
For myself its very simple none of them have given me enough reason to believe one way or the other. Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a god, I think something had to happen in order for us to be here. If you look at science's explanation the big bang created the universe. Although I think this is what probably happened the real question is what caused the big bang, not only that where did the dense hot dense state that existed before the big bang come from? Whatever made that hot dense state that eventually became the universe is god. Because this is what I believe I don't believe in any specific religion because all religions discredit this theory.
So in short I think god (whatever god is) created that hot, dense state, hit the trigger and let everything else create itself over billions of years which created many different galaxies and planets with life (which includes earth itself).
I think both religion and science are somehow intertwined together, I'm not sure how or when but there is just too much stuff in the earth and universe that I've seen and felt that makes me truly believe there is a higher power.
I don't believe any religion got it right for the simple fact I don't see god one day telling us how it all happened, I think god made the universe that put us here and expects us to figure it out for ourselves using the knowledge we use.
What is your personal history with religion and/or disbelief?
Growing up I didn't know much of religion or faith, because of a scuffle my dad had with my public school principal he got me into a catholic school (not sure how I got in because I wasn't baptized) because he thought they had a better education system. When I was in catholic school I started to learn about the catholic religion, god and Jesus. Because I have always believed in thinking for myself I never bought what they were feeding me. I had a hard time believing that you need to confess your sins and live by gods rules in order to make it into heaven or hell. I realized religion doesn't make you a good person, but why would god punish someone who is a good person and went with a different religion? To me that ideology is very shallow and short sighted and if god was really the higher power who knows better, he would look at the big picture and not at every little thing you did wrong against the bible.
It also didn't help because I did question things I was basically treated like shit at that school (by students and teachers) which made my life miserable. It was funny because the second I was out of there I was happier because in public school stuff like that doesn't matter. For whatever reason I couldn't accept the catholic religion (maybe from poor teaching or just short sightedness by the school itself). I tried to go in with an open mind but there was nothing in that religion that made me feel like this was the way it works.
Upon learning about Christianity and other religions on my own I've realized that there is a lot of good you can take from religion but you can't expect religion or higher power to "save" you, I believe a person has to save themselves and if they can do that, be a good person and live their life to the fullest they will be rewarded in the next life (whatever that may be).
I've done some major digging in the religion department but to this day still haven't found one for me, probably never will, but that's ok. I'm happy and doing well in life so there is really no reason for me to follow a religion, I feel I have everything I will ever need already.
What would it take from the believer side, and what would it take from the disbeliever side to convince you of their position?
A hell of a lot of convincing and proof that someones belief system is the way to go. I just don't buy religion. I like what religion's often show and teach to people, I believe if you don't take it too literal and take it for what it is religion can teach you a lot about life, but most religions are so closely intertwined its hard to pick one over another. Most of the differences are minimal, most teach the same stuff in a different way but its crazy how those little differences have caused so many problems in the world. I just don't understand how people thinking differently and believing differently is cause for so much death and destruction. I think religion has caused more problems than it ever solved so I don't like to associate myself with any particular religion. I just believe what I believe, people will disagree but that doesn't mean we can't get along.
Question for everyone
What is one thing that you really want people to know about your belief and/or position?
My belief system is based on what I've seen and the knowledge given to me over time. My belief's are my own, they aren't someone elses, just mine alone. Find the belief system that works for you as a person, if religion or certain beliefs make you a happier and more well rounded person go for that. Everyone believes what they believe but believe what is best for you. If you are a good person and happy at the end of the day religion won't matter. Heaven is what you make it and if you are a good person and happy, you won't need heaven because you will already be there.
What is holding you back from being one side of the discussion instead of the other?
For myself its very simple none of them have given me enough reason to believe one way or the other. Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a god, I think something had to happen in order for us to be here. If you look at science's explanation the big bang created the universe. Although I think this is what probably happened the real question is what caused the big bang, not only that where did the dense hot dense state that existed before the big bang come from? Whatever made that hot dense state that eventually became the universe is god. Because this is what I believe I don't believe in any specific religion because all religions discredit this theory.
So in short I think god (whatever god is) created that hot, dense state, hit the trigger and let everything else create itself over billions of years which created many different galaxies and planets with life (which includes earth itself).
I think both religion and science are somehow intertwined together, I'm not sure how or when but there is just too much stuff in the earth and universe that I've seen and felt that makes me truly believe there is a higher power.
I don't believe any religion got it right for the simple fact I don't see god one day telling us how it all happened, I think god made the universe that put us here and expects us to figure it out for ourselves using the knowledge we use.
What is your personal history with religion and/or disbelief?
Growing up I didn't know much of religion or faith, because of a scuffle my dad had with my public school principal he got me into a catholic school (not sure how I got in because I wasn't baptized) because he thought they had a better education system. When I was in catholic school I started to learn about the catholic religion, god and Jesus. Because I have always believed in thinking for myself I never bought what they were feeding me. I had a hard time believing that you need to confess your sins and live by gods rules in order to make it into heaven or hell. I realized religion doesn't make you a good person, but why would god punish someone who is a good person and went with a different religion? To me that ideology is very shallow and short sighted and if god was really the higher power who knows better, he would look at the big picture and not at every little thing you did wrong against the bible.
It also didn't help because I did question things I was basically treated like shit at that school (by students and teachers) which made my life miserable. It was funny because the second I was out of there I was happier because in public school stuff like that doesn't matter. For whatever reason I couldn't accept the catholic religion (maybe from poor teaching or just short sightedness by the school itself). I tried to go in with an open mind but there was nothing in that religion that made me feel like this was the way it works.
Upon learning about Christianity and other religions on my own I've realized that there is a lot of good you can take from religion but you can't expect religion or higher power to "save" you, I believe a person has to save themselves and if they can do that, be a good person and live their life to the fullest they will be rewarded in the next life (whatever that may be).
I've done some major digging in the religion department but to this day still haven't found one for me, probably never will, but that's ok. I'm happy and doing well in life so there is really no reason for me to follow a religion, I feel I have everything I will ever need already.
What would it take from the believer side, and what would it take from the disbeliever side to convince you of their position?
A hell of a lot of convincing and proof that someones belief system is the way to go. I just don't buy religion. I like what religion's often show and teach to people, I believe if you don't take it too literal and take it for what it is religion can teach you a lot about life, but most religions are so closely intertwined its hard to pick one over another. Most of the differences are minimal, most teach the same stuff in a different way but its crazy how those little differences have caused so many problems in the world. I just don't understand how people thinking differently and believing differently is cause for so much death and destruction. I think religion has caused more problems than it ever solved so I don't like to associate myself with any particular religion. I just believe what I believe, people will disagree but that doesn't mean we can't get along.
Question for everyone
What is one thing that you really want people to know about your belief and/or position?
My belief system is based on what I've seen and the knowledge given to me over time. My belief's are my own, they aren't someone elses, just mine alone. Find the belief system that works for you as a person, if religion or certain beliefs make you a happier and more well rounded person go for that. Everyone believes what they believe but believe what is best for you. If you are a good person and happy at the end of the day religion won't matter. Heaven is what you make it and if you are a good person and happy, you won't need heaven because you will already be there.
BK Styles
Certified Nerd
If I had to define myself as anything it'd be agnostic, but it isn't quite as simple as that. do I believe that there is a God? I believe that there is something, not neccessarily a God, but maybe something outside of the realm of our own consciousness. I'm not a believer in heaven as such, but I do believe there is something after death. My view is 'there's no smoke without fire.' Religion came from somewhere, and that somewhere has to contain some truth, in my eyes. But the answers provided by science have always appealed more to me, primarily because the evidence is fact-based, as opposed to a book written by man supposedly by God himself.
I've always had doubts but have never fully discarded religion. The closest I came to becoming a full-blown athiest was last year, when one of my closest friends passed away. She was on the same Theatre degree as me, and she had just been accepted onto a Masters degree in creative writing; something she was brilliant at. I know people always say this, but she was one of the nicest human beings to have ever graced this earth. She rarely spoke ill of anyone, and was always there for anyone, and was just a catalyst of energy and happiness. And I can't help but think, if there is a God, why would he cut her life so short. I mean, she had just turned 21. Twenty one years of age. Why did she have to die when she had so much in front of her. How could a God do that; not just to her, but to her mother, her family, and pardon me a second for being selfish, but to her friends?
I'm not blaming God directly, because to do so while I am not religious would be foolhardy, and I don't wish to insult people. But this is a question that I, personally, cannot accept a pro-religious answer to. I'm aware the question is not as clear-cut as I have stated it, but the point remains; why?
I will always respect someone for their religious beliefs, will always entertain the possibility of truth and will never completely discount it, and, in a way, if you are a believer in God, I envy you. But until someone or something proves me otherwise, I cannot follow religion. There's too much for me factually and personally to believe.
I've always had doubts but have never fully discarded religion. The closest I came to becoming a full-blown athiest was last year, when one of my closest friends passed away. She was on the same Theatre degree as me, and she had just been accepted onto a Masters degree in creative writing; something she was brilliant at. I know people always say this, but she was one of the nicest human beings to have ever graced this earth. She rarely spoke ill of anyone, and was always there for anyone, and was just a catalyst of energy and happiness. And I can't help but think, if there is a God, why would he cut her life so short. I mean, she had just turned 21. Twenty one years of age. Why did she have to die when she had so much in front of her. How could a God do that; not just to her, but to her mother, her family, and pardon me a second for being selfish, but to her friends?
I'm not blaming God directly, because to do so while I am not religious would be foolhardy, and I don't wish to insult people. But this is a question that I, personally, cannot accept a pro-religious answer to. I'm aware the question is not as clear-cut as I have stated it, but the point remains; why?
I will always respect someone for their religious beliefs, will always entertain the possibility of truth and will never completely discount it, and, in a way, if you are a believer in God, I envy you. But until someone or something proves me otherwise, I cannot follow religion. There's too much for me factually and personally to believe.
I am happy that you think the bang bang 'created' (best phrase would be, the cause of, in my opinion) this universe because there's a lot of evidence to show that it did.
As for what created the hot dense state, we don't know. You're using the term God here pretty loosely because you say you would call God whatever created the hot dense state - so would you cause a naturally occurring phenomena God? What I mean is, you don't necessarily think God is/was an intelligent being?
What do you guys think about this. I seriously love this site, the paragraphs a little hard for me to grasp but I think it poses a good argument:
This definition would hold true even if no triangles existed at all. Therefore, a triangle's nature—what it is—does not guarantee that one exists (like unicorns—we know what they are, but that does not make them exist). Because it is not part of a triangle's nature to exist, triangles must be made to exist by something else that already exists (such as I drawing one on a piece of paper). But it also does not exist simply because of what I am. So, I have to be given existence as well. This cannot go on forever (no infinite series, remember?). Therefore, something that does not need to be given existence must exist to give everything else existence. Now apply this example to everything in the universe. Does any of it exist on its own? No. So, not only did the universe have to have a first cause to get started; it needs something to give it existence right now. The only thing that would not have to be given existence is a thing that exists as its very nature. It is existence. This thing would always exist, have no cause, have no beginning, have no limit, be outside of time, be infinite . . . sound familiar? It should! It is God!
http://www.gotquestions.org/cosmological-argument.html
This definition would hold true even if no triangles existed at all. Therefore, a triangle's nature—what it is—does not guarantee that one exists (like unicorns—we know what they are, but that does not make them exist). Because it is not part of a triangle's nature to exist, triangles must be made to exist by something else that already exists (such as I drawing one on a piece of paper). But it also does not exist simply because of what I am. So, I have to be given existence as well. This cannot go on forever (no infinite series, remember?). Therefore, something that does not need to be given existence must exist to give everything else existence. Now apply this example to everything in the universe. Does any of it exist on its own? No. So, not only did the universe have to have a first cause to get started; it needs something to give it existence right now. The only thing that would not have to be given existence is a thing that exists as its very nature. It is existence. This thing would always exist, have no cause, have no beginning, have no limit, be outside of time, be infinite . . . sound familiar? It should! It is God!
http://www.gotquestions.org/cosmological-argument.html
It's an old argument that's ultimately not very satisfying, here's why:
First of all, not everything has a cause, which is the main assumption of the cosmological argument. Radioactive decay is an example of this.
Secondly, if you want to get technical, the argument doesn't even actually make sense. The big bang theory states that time began with the expansion of the universe, thus you can't invoke cause and effect in an argument about the beginning of the universe because there was no 'before' as that's an aspect of time, a dimension which didn't even exist.
Thirdly, there are other scientific theories which would explain how a universe could come to be without a first cause, such as an infinite loop of big bang - big crunch.
Lastly and most importantly, the argument doesn't explain anything. "God did it" isn't a very satisfying answer. If everything has a cause, what caused the designer? The argument says, "Oh, no, God doesn't need a designer or a cause - he/she's above all that", what that's a case of special pleading if I've ever heard it. Everything needs a cause until there's something that the arguer doesn't want to have to explain.
----
As an aside, I think you'll find that any argument or proof from a website like gotquestions.com or christiananswers.net are ultimately either:
- Not telling the whole story.
- Simply incorrect.
- Taking something that can't be explained at the moment, saying 'God did it' and then cleaning their hands and walking away as if that really explains anything.
Two other very popular arguments from believers are:
- Pacal's Wager - Basically states, if there is a God and you don't believe, you're going to hell (infinite punishment), however if you did believe you're going to heaven (infinite reward. If there is no God and you don't believe, nothing happens (no reward), and if there is no God and you did believe, nothing happens (no punishment). Therefore it's only logical that you believe, even if for no other reason than to save your ass just in case.
- Watchmaker Argument - Basically is saying, imagine you're walking down a beach and you see a watch. Even if you didn't know what a watch was, you can tell it was designed, there's no way it could have just materialized or come to be through random chance. Logic follows that, because organisms such as humans, animals, etc are just as complex (and would be argued, much, much more so) than a watch, it makes sense to also assume that these organisms were designed by a designer - God.
Ultimately though these arguments are just as fallacious as the cosmological argument.
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
I guess my point is we don't know if that hot dense state was created by an intelligent being or not. To be fair the term god has never been stated as an intelligent being, no one knows exactly what god is so its really up for interpretation.
To rephrase I think there is a higher, intelligent being that created the hot dense state and triggered the big bang and let everything do the work. Its one of those mysteries though that will never be solved. It could be a natural phenomena and I certainly wouldn't discredit that, but I do think I higher intelligent being created it, started the chain reaction and let the universe do its thing.
Why is that? Faith? Reason?
Poop Master Flex
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Let's just say through my life I have seen some things that I couldn't explain. 1 was a near death experience where I almost drowned and something (not sure what) got me out of there and we never saw what, if it was a person or something else entirely. The same thing apparently happened to a family member. A few other things happened too but that was the big one that made me think maybe there is something else out there, whether its spirits or what it made me think there is a higher power.
There's been a good bit of discussion so now I'll answer the questions I put forth in my OP.
I grew up in a family that was Catholic but didn't go to church. I went to a Catholic school from JK - Grade 4, and I was baptized and had the holy communion. I didn't really ever think too much about God or religion, I always just assumed that God was real and that everyone had baptism, communion, and confirmation. I switched out of Catholic school at the beginning of Grade 5 because my folks didn't think it was a good fit anymore for me and went to public school from that point onward.
I began to question God and religion more and more as I got older. I remember thinking in 2006 that I was agnostic and that meant I wasn't sure if there was a God or not (not what the term means lol). Over time I just realized I didn't really think there was a God and then I began actually watching a lot of videos, reading books, following the debates and arguments and then I firmly became opposed to God and religion.
Evidence. The best argument I've ever heard from a believer was to point out the things that science couldn't explain and then shoehorn God. Any of the popular arguments like the watchmaker argument, or the first-cause argument are all flawed logic and are only useful for confusing someone who isn't versed in their fallacious nature.
However the evidence against a God has become so great at this point that there would need to be a lot of very credible evidence to come about before I would even entertain the idea of there being a God.
Few things:
Sometimes I find it's not a good time to bring it up. My fiance's family are very religious, and even though some of them know I am atheist, I've never openly mentioned it and we don't talk about it. I'm fine discussing religion and God with anyone, and if someone chooses to get offended and not like me or want to talk to me, I'm fine with that, but when I'm also associated with someone who doesn't want to/can't do that, it makes it hard.
Example: my fiance has a very religious aunt and the people who know I am an atheist just omit telling her that information because apparently she'd freak out.
I usually won't volunteer the information, but if I am asked or the discussion comes around when I would be forced to lie, I'm honest with it.
I grew up in a family that was Catholic but didn't go to church. I went to a Catholic school from JK - Grade 4, and I was baptized and had the holy communion. I didn't really ever think too much about God or religion, I always just assumed that God was real and that everyone had baptism, communion, and confirmation. I switched out of Catholic school at the beginning of Grade 5 because my folks didn't think it was a good fit anymore for me and went to public school from that point onward.
I began to question God and religion more and more as I got older. I remember thinking in 2006 that I was agnostic and that meant I wasn't sure if there was a God or not (not what the term means lol). Over time I just realized I didn't really think there was a God and then I began actually watching a lot of videos, reading books, following the debates and arguments and then I firmly became opposed to God and religion.
Evidence. The best argument I've ever heard from a believer was to point out the things that science couldn't explain and then shoehorn God. Any of the popular arguments like the watchmaker argument, or the first-cause argument are all flawed logic and are only useful for confusing someone who isn't versed in their fallacious nature.
However the evidence against a God has become so great at this point that there would need to be a lot of very credible evidence to come about before I would even entertain the idea of there being a God.
Few things:
- Evolution isn't the creation of life, it explains how life got here.
- Big Bang Theory isn't about the creation of the universe (although a creation theory would likely involve it), it's about how the universe today got to be here (expansion of space).
- Atheism isn't a belief in no belief - that's not how it works. By default, anything someone says, the default position is no-belief until there's reason to believe. I don't like it when someone says, "might be a God, might not" as if it were 50/50, or if someone says, "you just believe something different" - No I don't, I don't believe anything, that's the point, no belief.
- Atheists (most) don't know God doesn't exist, they just think there's no reason to believe so at this point, it's highly, highly unlikely.
Sometimes I find it's not a good time to bring it up. My fiance's family are very religious, and even though some of them know I am atheist, I've never openly mentioned it and we don't talk about it. I'm fine discussing religion and God with anyone, and if someone chooses to get offended and not like me or want to talk to me, I'm fine with that, but when I'm also associated with someone who doesn't want to/can't do that, it makes it hard.
Example: my fiance has a very religious aunt and the people who know I am an atheist just omit telling her that information because apparently she'd freak out.
I usually won't volunteer the information, but if I am asked or the discussion comes around when I would be forced to lie, I'm honest with it.
I still find some of the stuff written in the Old Testament to be possible solid facts.
Further question for the religious folk:
There is. We're just stubborn to it.
I do trust science. The problem is that there really anyway to perfectly disclose that theory. What if God caused the Big Bang? What if he was made by the Big Bang? What if he's just one big alien that made and shaped this planet in particular? Religion is like a tradition and if you're born to it, your heritage makes it very hard to disclose it because it's what shaped your life and you don't want to change that..
See the above part. There's an endless amount of possibilities as to what God is if He's indeed real. We're got a speck of proof that He may be real in the form of the world's oldest book and tradition. Telling a devoted Christian is like telling the Amish that it's time to move to the 21st century.
I see your point, but what I would ask is: Why are you so intent on squeezing in God? Like, God is an omnipotent being that transcends any form of understanding we have, so it's very easy and convenient to shoehorn him in anywhere you want. Why unnecessarily make a theory more complex by putting God on top of it? If we could show the universe was created by natural means, etc, I'm sure there are religious folks that would be like, 'And God oversaw all of this!'
Have you ever heard of occam's razor or the law of parsimony? It's a principle that states that the best theory is the one that explains all the facts with the fewest assumptions and complexities. Example: We have our explanation for gravity, but we could tack on that the gravitational pull is controlled in a distant planet lightyears away by purple aliens. That would still explain everything we observe here, but it's not parsimonious, it's needlessly complex. I find God does the same thing.
Isn't there that same speck of proof for Judaism or Islam?
