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Religion

This is a very difficult topic to debate on, particularly with people who are sensitive. I'll try to tread lightly and if I cause any offense, I apologize.

Religion to me seems like a ludicrous idea. Any evidence there is a God is evidence that there could be other things as well, often more probable, logical things. Perhaps it is because I have a very logical mind I can invest very little of my life in faith, I like to be in control of as much of my life as possible. Religion is man-made, therefore meaning it is subject to the alteration and control of man. I see religion as a way to exert control. At least I think it was, until it was carried over into the wrong age. Australia is not mentioned in the bible, despite it apparently be God's words. This is simply because man, or the men creating the bible rather, had not discovered Australia.

The fact is, no matter how far you go against religion with evidence, it'll never be solid. The problem is, you're arguing against an all-powerful God. That means that no matter how many new things are discovered, those things are automatically related to God, even if those things are not mentioned in the bible. In addition to that, you cannot prove that there is not a God, as you cannot conclusively prove a negative. The only example I can think of is this:

Jake proposes that advanced gorillas create their own pornography, despite there being no evidence for it. I couldn't disprove this by monitoring gorillas and showing that they aren't creating their own pornography. Maybe they just don't do it when I'm looking? Maybe that particular group of gorillas are an anomaly? Maybe the gorillas that do do it are invisible?

I hope you see where I'm coming from.

ADDED: I just wanted to expand on this a bit. I think that perhaps religion can be a dangerous influence too. To me, to be religious is to be ignorant. It's to be lazy and to not look at the world around you and come to a logical conclusion, usually because people are frightened of what that conclusion may be. At least, that's what conclusion I've come to in my experience.

Ignorance, or supposed ignorance, can be dangerous in my view. Particularly when you are stubborn in your beliefs and you come into contact with someone else who is as well. It's also dangerous in the enforcement of pointless rules or misinterpretations of holy writings, etc. (or correct interpretations, for all I know). People of different races, sexes and sexualities have been oppressed simply because religion said (or was interpreted to have said) they should have been oppressed.

Here's an interesting quote that I came across that I think inadvertently proves my point:

Martin Luther (not King!), an early Protestant -

"Reason is the Devil's harlot, who can do nought but slander and harm whatever God says and does."

Granted, religion may have evolved since then but this is a quote from a man who created the roots of Protestant Christianity itself.
 
Mr. Sam said:
To me, to be religious is to be ignorant. It's to be lazy and to not look at the world around you and come to a logical conclusion, usually because people are frightened of what that conclusion may be. At least, that's what conclusion I've come to in my experience.

It's interesting that you say that religion is illogical. There have been attemps in the past to use logic to support religion. For example- Pascal's Wager was a "logical" arguement on why people should believe in God/religion. Of course I'm not saying anyone has to believe in God, but I like bringing it up when debating about religion since more times than not people tend to seperate logic and religion.

I'm Muslim myself, so I know what a true "strict" religion is more than most people do.

Flames Out
Dragon
 
It's interesting that you say that religion is illogical. There have been attemps in the past to use logic to support religion. For example- Pascal's Wager was a "logical" arguement on why people should believe in God/religion. Of course I'm not saying anyone has to believe in God, but I like bringing it up when debating about religion since more times than not people tend to seperate logic and religion.

I'm Muslim myself, so I know what a true "strict" religion is more than most people do.

Flames Out
Dragon

The whole "presenting religion as logic" thing sounds very interesting to me, could you quote it or cite where to find it? I find it difficult to think of religion as logic and I'm sure there would be some quite serious holes in the argument. An interesting question Dragon is, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, would you still be a Muslim if you hadn't been born into a Muslim family/culture? What type of lifestyle do you leave because you are Muslim. I am good friends with a Muslim, yet he does not strictly obey the rules of Islam. At least to my knowledge he doesn't.
 
The whole "presenting religion as logic" thing sounds very interesting to me, could you quote it or cite where to find it? I find it difficult to think of religion as logic and I'm sure there would be some quite serious holes in the argument. An interesting question Dragon is, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, would you still be a Muslim if you hadn't been born into a Muslim family/culture? What type of lifestyle do you leave because you are Muslim. I am good friends with a Muslim, yet he does not strictly obey the rules of Islam. At least to my knowledge he doesn't.

Yeah sure, there's more information about Pascal's Wager here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

I'd quote it, but it's long. There's some more information on other logical arguements in the article too. I actually learned about it in World History last year in school.

And sure I don't mind answering. I probably wouldn't be Muslim if I wasn't born into it. There's some stuff that I don't agree with or follow, like I don't cover my hair. I'd still believe in God though. I think everyone needs a higher power to believe in, especially with all the bad stuff that happens. It might not be the most logical explanation to believe in God (or maybe it is), but it's something to be hopeful about.

Flames Out
Dragon
 
How far down the family line does it go since you were born into? Mother/Grandmother/etc? What exactly do the muslims believe as far as a "god"? Interesting religion.
 
I myslef am Catholic. I go to church, I pray and beleive in God. I do beleive that God created everything, and God can take everything away. I have never judged anybody by their religion. There have been many different stories about Heaven and Hell, who gets in? I beleive that like Seniour Coconut said when we die we will go before God and he will tell us all our sins. My opinion is if we were good, we will go to Heaven and be in eternal happiness. If we were bad we will go to Hell and be in eternal agony. And if we are not good enough to go to Heaven, but not bad enough to go to Hell, I beleive we will go to refurgatory. If we make up for our sins we will go to Heaven, but if we don't we will stay in refurgatory for all eternity. I don't want to offend anybody this is just my opinion.
 
I'm an atheist. My mother's Christian and my Father's catholic, and when I told my parents I was atheist my father called me a heathen. I laughed. How can I believe in a God when there's so much evil in this world? How can I believe in a God when blood is always spilt in his name? If there's truly a God, he'll prove himself too me and not expect me too prove myself too him.

I also have a huge grudge against Relegion. I absolutly loathe it. There are those who use it to justify the horrors they commit on the world. There are those that use it to belittle others because they believe they themselves are above the others. Then again, I'm just basing that on the bad eggs within relegion. Sadly, they've soured it for me.
 
I don't really follow a certain religion per se. Personally, while evolution has technically been proven, I do believe in an afterlife and a higher power(s). However, where evolution and spirituality meet, I haven't a clue. For my views in a nutshell, read my signature.
 
I've got a simple question for anybody religious: how can you entrust your life into something for which there is absolutely no conclusive proof?

I mean, all other arguments are well and good, such as "how can there be a god if suffering exists?" but the most compelling and unavoidable is simply the fact that there is no solid proof for religious beliefs. As I've said before, faith by definition means believing in something for which there is no or little evidence. It just makes very little sense to me. Let's be honest for a second, religion is man-made. Perhaps there was some kind of divine intervention but it's undeniable that without men in the right places at the right time there would be no religion.

Again, I apologise if this causes offense.
 
I've got a simple question for anybody religious: how can you entrust your life into something for which there is absolutely no conclusive proof?

I mean, all other arguments are well and good, such as "how can there be a god if suffering exists?" but the most compelling and unavoidable is simply the fact that there is no solid proof for religious beliefs. As I've said before, faith by definition means believing in something for which there is no or little evidence. It just makes very little sense to me. Let's be honest for a second, religion is man-made. Perhaps there was some kind of divine intervention but it's undeniable that without men in the right places at the right time there would be no religion.

Again, I apologise if this causes offense.

Word, Sammy, Word.

Let me speak for myself and ONLY myself on this one. I am a relatively dedicated Episcopalian (think Catholic-light) and have a fair assessment of my faith. My fiancee is agnostic, and we don't fight about it.

I refuse to buy into the idea that all fate / happiness / suffering is the precise plan of a higher power. To me, that sounds like a total cop-out, an excuse made by folks who don't want to own the consequences of their actions, instead making themselves out to be a pawn in some celestial game. No no, I feel all entities #1 entitlement is free will - uncompromised and virginal.

I feel life is a series of choices that individuals make, and the consequences of those choices.

Whether a "God" exists, or a Heaven or a Hell, is somewhat immaterial. Placing one's faith into an unproven being's hands is 1) a humble way of admitting that there are greater things at work than we could ever understand or comprehend, and 2) a source of hope and stability, the idea that somewhere, somebody has our back for better or worse.

The concept of "Heaven," "Hell," and "Sin" create a fair moral compass for each of us. A guideine by which to live that allows for evolution to take place, and for rational society to exist. The fear that murdering another human will not only doom one's terrestrial life but also their celestial life deters us from taking the lives away from others. We could still do it (choice) but there would be consequences, both real (jail) and perceived (hell).

Like it or not, the 7 sins do represent the root of some of the most negative emotions we are capable of. Lust creates more problems than it is worth. Greed represents a lack of concern for the good of all people (though it serves to motivate and reward good performance). Wrath begets hatred for what is done to us. If humans lived in absense of the 7 "deadly sins" how much would be different, and how much better off would we be?

It's counterintuitive to think that "God" made these rules and yet makes us act in a way that is contrary to those rules as part of some cosmic prank. Like Al Pacino says in The Devils Advocate, "God gave man instincts, and then, I swear to God for his own sick, fucking amusement - he sets the rules in opposition." Free will gives us the power to make decisions. Religion provides us a moral compass to make the right ones and to have remorse for shortcomings, as well as the humility to apoligize for them.

Religion does not "expect" perfection. As Lexus states, it's about "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection." The idea that we can improve and continue to get better as people.

There you go - my assessment of religion. As a disclaimer, I DO NOT offend easilly. If you totally disagree with me, I welcome the spirited debate.
 
Let me speak for myself and ONLY myself on this one. I am a relatively dedicated Episcopalian (think Catholic-light) and have a fair assessment of my faith. My fiancee is agnostic, and we don't fight about it.

It's good that religious beliefs don't interfere with your relationship. I know that relationships, romantic or otherwise, can be seriously damaged by religious beliefs.

I I feel all entities #1 entitlement is free will - uncompromised and virginal.

Uncompromised free will sounds dangerous and impossible to me. I mean, none of us can have uncompromised free will, religion or no religion. That's if I understand the term correctly though.

Whether a "God" exists, or a Heaven or a Hell, is somewhat immaterial. Placing one's faith into an unproven being's hands is 1) a humble way of admitting that there are greater things at work than we could ever understand or comprehend, and 2) a source of hope and stability, the idea that somewhere, somebody has our back for better or worse.

Believing in science is also a humble way of admitting there are greater things at work, is it not? Perhaps even on an even bigger scale. The fact that we are in a impossibly alone in an impossibly vast, uncaring universe that will one day obliterate any sign that we every existed seems - to me at least - far more humbling than admitting that there's some kind of God. And as for a source of stability, I'll have to go back to my earlier argument that God and religion are invented to combat fear and unpleasant feelings It just seems... wrong to me. Like a delusion almost.

The concept of "Heaven," "Hell," and "Sin" create a fair moral compass for each of us. A guideine by which to live that allows for evolution to take place, and for rational society to exist. The fear that murdering another human will not only doom one's terrestrial life but also their celestial life deters us from taking the lives away from others. We could still do it (choice) but there would be consequences, both real (jail) and perceived (hell).

I think that decent human beings shouldn't need a strict moral compass. Besides, if we were all to believe that this life is the only one we'd have, we'd be far more reluctant to wreck it, wouldn't we? There's arguments that religion helps societies, and that it hinders it. I believe it did both, but that we no longer need it in this modern age. If people need to have the threat of eternal torment hung over them merely to prevent them from breaking the law - or, rather absurdly, doing something supposedly "immoral" or "wrong", like pre-marital relations or even eating bacon - then they are obviously not decent people and other people should not be subjected to them.

Like it or not, the 7 sins do represent the root of some of the most negative emotions we are capable of. Lust creates more problems than it is worth. Greed represents a lack of concern for the good of all people (though it serves to motivate and reward good performance). Wrath begets hatred for what is done to us. If humans lived in absense of the 7 "deadly sins" how much would be different, and how much better off would we be?

I emboldened the bit that I thought most important. You would think an all-powerful God would get things perfect, wouldn't you? I mean, things have been updated by God after God first apparently dictated them. It seems quite clumsy to me. And if you're a fan of a "it changes with the times" argument, then surely an all-knowing being could have found a perfect balance to begin with?

And again, properly enforced law would be just as effective as sins (most of which don't seem to be particularly deadly).

It's counterintuitive to think that "God" made these rules and yet makes us act in a way that is contrary to those rules as part of some cosmic prank. Like Al Pacino says in The Devils Advocate, "God gave man instincts, and then, I swear to God for his own sick, fucking amusement - he sets the rules in opposition." Free will gives us the power to make decisions. Religion provides us a moral compass to make the right ones and to have remorse for shortcomings, as well as the humility to apoligize for them.

Well, there you go then.

Religion does not "expect" perfection. As Lexus states, it's about "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection." The idea that we can improve and continue to get better as people.

But perfection is subject to opinion, is it not? People could be struggling to attain the completely wrong thing or - more likely - something which does not even exist.
 
I have been a Christian man all my life. I grew up in and still attend a small church in North East Mississippi. In fact, it is the oldest church in the entire North East section of the state as it was built as early as 1819, housing both black and white members. We're what people will often refer to us as "old baptists", but the more technical term would be "primitive baptist". We go to church for an hour of solid nonstop preaching on Sunday plus about 10 or so minutes of singing using no instruments or high tech equipment of any kind. We go to church first and foremost to hear the word of God and believe that a lot of the modern amenities of the larger churches distracts people from why they go in the first place. I, by no means, consider myself an authority on the Bible, and I can't quote many scriptures, if any at all. I do, however, find that most people who can never grasp the true meaning of what the scriptures are saying, and thus it does someone no good to memorize something in which they do not understand. I do not devote my time to memorizing verses, but instead understanding and interpreting them as they are read to me.

It's good that religious beliefs don't interfere with your relationship. I know that relationships, romantic or otherwise, can be seriously damaged by religious beliefs.

I would say as well that Irish's case is more the exception than the rule. Religion is just one of those things that people feel most passionate about, one way or the other. Some people can put aside their feelings, and some come off as rather unaccepting. A difference in religion is a pretty big wedge which is driven into many marriages. I know I'm probably not one to share my life with someone who doesn't believe the same as me and thus at this point in my life I don't believe I ever will.

Uncompromised free will sounds dangerous and impossible to me. I mean, none of us can have uncompromised free will, religion or no religion. That's if I understand the term correctly though.

It is my belief that God knows exactly where you're going to go in your life, but he also knows that your life could have been made better or worse by certain choices. In a sense, even though God already knows what you're going to go in life, you're still responsible for the actions that got you there. For example, God does not cause you to flunk out of high school and spend the rest of your life working at a construction job. Had you held up your end of the stick and worked hard, it is my belief that God will see to it that you succeed in life. Of course, as all religious people know, the Lord does work in mysterious ways and sometimes all efforts seem to go unanswered. however, even in the bible it speaks of men being thrust into hardship and through it all they kept their faith and found happiness in the end. I believe as long as one shares a strong faith in God that they will receive some measure of happiness in their life regardless of how big or how small.

Believing in science is also a humble way of admitting there are greater things at work, is it not? Perhaps even on an even bigger scale. The fact that we are in a impossibly alone in an impossibly vast, uncaring universe that will one day obliterate any sign that we every existed seems - to me at least - far more humbling than admitting that there's some kind of God. And as for a source of stability, I'll have to go back to my earlier argument that God and religion are invented to combat fear and unpleasant feelings It just seems... wrong to me. Like a delusion almost.

I think the major difference in is the fact that science is made up of theories and laws developed by man, therefore a man who places his beliefs in science tends to believe that he had a hand in discovering the mysteries of the universe. I think science is right on the money when it comes to some things, but I do not believe science should be considered the be all and end all of how the world works. Man, by his very nature is a flawed creation, and it is my belief that a flawed creation may only create another flawed creation. I view science as simply just another religion, with the major difference being that believers in science tend to worship their own kind before worshiping a higher power.

In theory, there really isn't anything wrong at all with worshiping a higher power. Some religions are radical and hazardous to the world, but Christianity and it's close cousins are not taught to blow up people who don't believe like them. The Bible teaches to ignore the problems of the world and focus on their relationship with God. Some people don't do that, and I consider that wrong as it's not up to us to determine whether or not someone believes in God. We should be more concerned with what we are doing and making sure we're living our lives the way we should, though in truth, we're all equally guilty of sin and all undeserving of a better life after this one. Few churches preach this way, but mine does. We simply believe that one's actions aren't enough to get him or her into Heaven, and who goes and who stays is a decision left up to God as we are all guilty of sin. That, my friend, is more humbling than anything. To think that we are not responsible for our own spiritual well being is a scary thought, but it is also a thought founded with a great deal of common sense. After all, are we really so naive to believe that God is powerless to determine who goes to Heaven and who is sent into Hell?

Those who choose not to follow a religion of any kind can be very nice people, although most I've met are not. There is always a slight hint, a twinge, if you will, of arrogance. That is the arrogance that they believe they are in control of their live and are living things the way they want to live them. Most of those people say they're happy with who they are. Mankind is not perfect, and thus we should never be happy with who we are. To say that is like saying that they believe they are perfect, which they most certainly are not. They simply don't have any moral perfection to strive for.

I believe that the desire to not believe in a God comes from a natural dislike for being told what to do. As early as childhood, all of mankind has disputed with authority in being told what to do. Believing in God is no different, only while national laws and parental control are visible, God is not and thus people who don't like to be told what to do tend to ignore him. They choose to excuse a lot of their bad behavior simply by writing things off as a difference of opinion, yet another tactic used by children to try and get away with misbehavior.

Let me say though that Christians, primarily those that believe their particular sect is the only ones getting into Heaven, are also arrogant, as are those who believe it's their responsibility to "save" nonbelievers from "hell fire and brimstone". It's those who get under the skin of the Atheist community and set a bad tone for the rest of us.

Also, let me say that the existence of God does not deny the vastness of the universe. There is a passage in the Bible, and forgive me for not being up to speed on the exact sections, but it states that the Lord has other worlds in which he watches over. Now this could be interpreted in several different ways. One could think of it as being many different dimensions, a topic covered in science, life on foreign planets, a topic also covered in science, or perhaps the Bible is just referring to Heaven. Even if that enter passage was taken out, God never once denies the existence of any other creations than what he placed here on earth, nor does he deny in any shape or form the vastness of the universe.

I emboldened the bit that I thought most important. You would think an all-powerful God would get things perfect, wouldn't you? I mean, things have been updated by God after God first apparently dictated them. It seems quite clumsy to me. And if you're a fan of a "it changes with the times" argument, then surely an all-knowing being could have found a perfect balance to begin with?

And again, properly enforced law would be just as effective as sins (most of which don't seem to be particularly deadly).

God did get things perfect. In the book of Genesis, he created Adam and the rest of the world as completely flawless entities. However, he made it clear to Adam what he could and couldn't do. Adam, however, choose to disobey God, and that is when he began to make life harder for them. Man brought sin into the world by his own actions.

Also, as mentioned earlier, our laws coincide well with the commandments written in the Bible. Most every country has laws that copy from the original ten commandments and this is simply because they are such an excellent moral guide to what is considered right and wrong. Yes, breaking the law results in sufficient punishment from the authorities of this world, but for believers in God, there is an additional weight that breaking such a law carries. There is also punishment from a devine power to fear.
But perfection is subject to opinion, is it not? People could be struggling to attain the completely wrong thing or - more likely - something which does not even exist.

All the more reason to believe that their is a god out there. Without any kind of guide to show us what we should and should not be doing, we're left all alone in the world without really knowing how we should or shouldn't behave. Perfection is indeed a subjective term, at least to a nonbeliever, although without a moral guide I would venture to say that no one can truly say anything is right or that anything is wrong. There are certain things in life that our society has determined is wrong, but to a nonbeliever, there's nothing besides a law, made up by more opinionated people, stating that they can't do something. Thus the only reason they don't do it is out of fear of getting in trouble with the law. The only reason some people don't kill is because they are afraid of jail, not because they know it is morally wrong. The only defense any nonbeliever can give me to what makes murder wrong is the fact that it just is. Well, I'm sorry, but that's a direct contradiction to the way most agnostics and atheists believe. For atheists especially, there has to be a reason for everything. There has to be direct, hard proof that something is wrong. They have to be able to see it with their own eyes. They have to touch it. They simply cannot have faith in mere written words. Though, as I just proved, man has to have faith in order to exist as cleanly and purely as he can in this world. The Bible is just a moral tool telling the people of the world what is right and what is wrong, just like the laws that govern our fair nation, and the plethora of nations around the world. The more man chooses to deviate from that word, and the more man choses to trust in his own flawed design then the farther we will fall.

Nothing to me is more evident of the existence of God than by just looking at our society today compared to our society as early as 50-60 years ago. In the 1940s and 1950s, moral values were strong, families attended church on a regular basis, and the influence of God was strong all throughout America. As time went on, the influence of God began to get smaller and smaller, and now no one knows how to act because our society as a whole is not looking at the world through a single unified vision of right and wrong, as we once were. Many years ago, families gathered together in the family room of the house and shared stories, played games, and enjoyed many warm moments. These days most families are to concerned with their computer, with their television, with their video game systems, and with themselves.

Families today are far more concerned with the amenities of the world than those given to us by God. Just look at television these days. One can't sit down and watch the television for more than a half our without seeing at least one morally questionable add, program, or action on television. We have late night porn adds, sexual stimulant commercials, constant swearing, and great portions of blood and violence filling our TV screens and our minds these days. I almost miss the days of feel good TV like Lone Ranger, I Love Lucy, Happy Days, The Jeffersons, etc.

Television these days wants to be as real as possible. Television produces want to try and bring the workings of the world on over to the TV screen. Television was never meant to be a reflection of our sad reality, but instead it was meant to be an escape from it. Television was meant to be one thing that families could use each and every night to escape from the horrors and hassles of the world, at least for a few minutes, just to relax and feel good about themselves. Was television a little overprotective in the past? Yes I'd say it was. I don't think it's hard to deny that television produces of today all try to take things to a much greater extreme than it needs to be. The whole point of all this is that the decline of such programming parallels the decline of morals in our society today. I could carry the argument over to anything from marriage life, to music, to school behavior, to clothing, and even to parenting.

Sure, a difference in religion has divided people in the past and continues to today, but having no religion and no true sense of right and wrong will only serve to divide people even more. As a world without a unified vision of peace and purity is a world of chaos.

In the end, do not think of this as preaching, yet merely an explanation of how we believe what we do and why. Should atheists change their ways? Yes, I believe they all should, yet I'm also not dumb enough to believe that through my own actions, any of them will. I believe that they are wrong, but I'm not going to condemn a single one of them to any kind of Hell. That's not my place to do so, and truth be told no one except God knows where anyone in this world is going to go after they die.

The concept of a higher power is nigh impossible for a nonbeliever to grasp just by listening to the explanations of man. It takes the Lord himself to open the eyes of his people. It's nothing that anyone can ask to happen. It just happens, and when it does they'll be able to understand. Until then, nothing will ever help them understand how we believe.
 
I believe as long as one shares a strong faith in God that they will receive some measure of happiness in their life regardless of how big or how small.

The thing is, I can't think of anybody who doesn't have some measure of happiness in their life, unless they are seriously mentally ill. It sort of goes without saying that someone will have some form of happiness in their life, it's merely coincidental that those with faith would have some, particularly if they find the faith they possess - which must be false for a large amount of people, if one is true and especially if none are - a comfort.



I think the major difference in is the fact that science is made up of theories and laws developed by man, therefore a man who places his beliefs in science tends to believe that he had a hand in discovering the mysteries of the universe. I think science is right on the money when it comes to some things, but I do not believe science should be considered the be all and end all of how the world works. Man, by his very nature is a flawed creation, and it is my belief that a flawed creation may only create another flawed creation. I view science as simply just another religion, with the major difference being that believers in science tend to worship their own kind before worshiping a higher power.

I wouldn't necessarily call it worship. In fact, I find it difficult to think of subscribing to science as worship. Religion involves faith, and faith by definition means believing in something that isn't backed up by hard fact or likelihoods. Science is believing in things, and furthering on things, that have been proven or are more likely than the other possibilities. There's no absolute and end all in most matters, unlike religion in my range of knowledge.

In theory, there really isn't anything wrong at all with worshiping a higher power. Some religions are radical and hazardous to the world, but Christianity and it's close cousins are not taught to blow up people who don't believe like them.

Have there not been misinterpretations of the Bible that have lead to violence? The most recent and prominent case I can think of is the man, I'm not sure of his name as the UK news tends not to go into much detail about things that happen in the USA unless they're particularly significant, who shot dead an abortionist, or number of abortionists, simply because of his faith. I don't agree with abortion, but I have no strict faith that would drive me to do something like this. Religion in most or all forms is a dangerous influence, or has the potential to be.


The Bible teaches to ignore the problems of the world and focus on their relationship with God. Some people don't do that, and I consider that wrong as it's not up to us to determine whether or not someone believes in God. We should be more concerned with what we are doing and making sure we're living our lives the way we should, though in truth, we're all equally guilty of sin and all undeserving of a better life after this one. Few churches preach this way, but mine does. We simply believe that one's actions aren't enough to get him or her into Heaven, and who goes and who stays is a decision left up to God as we are all guilty of sin. That, my friend, is more humbling than anything. To think that we are not responsible for our own spiritual well being is a scary thought, but it is also a thought founded with a great deal of common sense. After all, are we really so naive to believe that God is powerless to determine who goes to Heaven and who is sent into Hell?

I would love to think that way. In fact, I would look forward to eternal torment far more than an absolute death or an eternity in oblivion. Who knows, it could be true. But I find the scientific way of thinking far more frightening and humbling than any religious way, but I choose to believe in it anyway.

Those who choose not to follow a religion of any kind can be very nice people, although most I've met are not. There is always a slight hint, a twinge, if you will, of arrogance. That is the arrogance that they believe they are in control of their live and are living things the way they want to live them. Most of those people say they're happy with who they are. Mankind is not perfect, and thus we should never be happy with who we are. To say that is like saying that they believe they are perfect, which they most certainly are not. They simply don't have any moral perfection to strive for.

I think that the provision of a moral compass or of comfort is a poor thing to believe for. Most of my friends are Christians, and I am friends with people who are Buddhists, Muslims and Agnostics. If people by nature are arrogant it's not really anybody's place to blame that on what they believe. And if people believe that they are correct and you are wrong, of course they will come over as arrogant.

I believe that the desire to not believe in a God comes from a natural dislike for being told what to do. As early as childhood, all of mankind has disputed with authority in being told what to do. Believing in God is no different, only while national laws and parental control are visible, God is not and thus people who don't like to be told what to do tend to ignore him. They choose to excuse a lot of their bad behavior simply by writing things off as a difference of opinion, yet another tactic used by children to try and get away with misbehavior.

I've always been very obedient, even in my early school days. I don't dislike being told to do anything at all. In fact, I crave structure and have trouble with independence. I think that perhaps you could say that people who like being told to do believe in God as much as you could say those who don't don't believe in God.

Also, let me say that the existence of God does not deny the vastness of the universe. There is a passage in the Bible, and forgive me for not being up to speed on the exact sections, but it states that the Lord has other worlds in which he watches over. Now this could be interpreted in several different ways. One could think of it as being many different dimensions, a topic covered in science, life on foreign planets, a topic also covered in science, or perhaps the Bible is just referring to Heaven. Even if that enter passage was taken out, God never once denies the existence of any other creations than what he placed here on earth, nor does he deny in any shape or form the vastness of the universe.

That's the problem with the Bible. It's very open to interpretation. You can't disprove anything because people can just say "actually, if you look wherever then you'll see that vague passage can be interpreted to fit in with anything".

I'll carry this on later because I'm running out of time to type and you typed a lot.
 
Ok here is a question to you Sam....When was the last time you or anyone saw a monkey give birth to a person. Science is just as much a religion as being a baptist. There are so many missing links that it's amazing that there's an evolutionary chain to begin with. Hey I'll put it to ya like this I would rather believe in God and go to heaven. Then believe in my self and go to hell. At very worse If I believe in God and he doesn't exist then there is complete nothingness after life and I am no worse of then I started.
 
Ok here is a question to you Sam....When was the last time you or anyone saw a monkey give birth to a person. Science is just as much a religion as being a baptist. There are so many missing links that it's amazing that there's an evolutionary chain to begin with. Hey I'll put it to ya like this I would rather believe in God and go to heaven. Then believe in my self and go to hell. At very worse If I believe in God and he doesn't exist then there is complete nothingness after life and I am no worse of then I started.

Thank you!! Science and religion might seem completely different to some people because it's fact vs belief, but there are just as many unanswered questions relating to science as there is relating to religion. Like the Big Bang Theory. Okay so there was a lot of mass squeezed into a small volume, and then it all exploded, and started the expansion of the universe. Even though they found evidence of the Big Theory by finding background radiation it still never 100% proved the theory, and there's still a lot of speculation and quoting Mr. Sam "no conclusive proof"- which can be said for a lot of the theories in science. So in a way science is about believeing too, just like religion.

Flames Out
Dragon
 
What I love about religion is that Jesus killed a man and yet it's conveniently left out of the bible.

Anybody know how the bible came about? It's pretty much a collection of stories. A bit like Creepshow. Loads of people gave there verisons of stories that would eventually become the bible. They then put it together to make a thoroughly entertaining read. Although there was a cut off point that people could give there version of the story. Thus some very important facts have been omitted.
 
Ok here is a question to you Sam....When was the last time you or anyone saw a monkey give birth to a person. Science is just as much a religion as being a baptist.

I didn't. Science doesn't claim that. It figured out the most likely way we got to where we are today through centuries of debate. Currently, there is a massive amount of evidence for evolution, survival of the fittest, etc. It's all about what's the most likely thing. I mean, odds are that if there is a huge amount of evidence for something that it's true. Evolution could be false in the same way that my name being Sam is false. Maybe I just think it's Sam since everybody calls me Sam and it says Sam on my birth certificate. Surely that amount of evidence is pretty conclusive. Pretty much the same amount of evidence for evolution. Maybe my name is Joe, because it said "your name is Joe" in some old book I found.

Besides, there are plenty of religious scientists. Science and religion have never been completely separate entities, but that does not mean that science is a religion. Science is science, finding things out through theories and trying to prove those theories through experiments, observation and likelihood. Religion is religion, taking everything as it says it is in some book compiled by a bunch of men years after supposed events took place. I mean, was Moses really arrogant enough to write about himself in the third person? Of course, religion sometimes adapts to fit in with the latest scientific developments, but the basic belief forever survives.
 
I was raised Catholic. I still hold those beliefs, but I do not go to church. The church has proven itself to be a business, with its own agenda and its own interpretation of the bible. The abuse of children really turned me off to the church.

I do not believe in Adam and Eve, and support the big bang and evolution theories. I believe God may have set the Universe in motion, but I don't subscribe to the theory that we are all children of two people.

I also don't believe in this you'll go to hell if you get an abortion, curse, eat meat on the wrong day, etc. As long as you don't hurt anyone, and live a reasonably good life, I think you are fullfilling your religious obligations. I pray everyday to God and Jesus, but I do it at home, not in a building where they constantly beg for money.

All of this is just my opinion. If you like going to church, I respect and honor that.
 
The problem I see with these personal adaption, and belief, faith, whatever you want to call it generally is, how do you know this? OK, a lot of people say they comes from some divine intervention, instructions given from an omnipotent, omniscient eternal being - God, Allah, whatever you want to call "Him". The problem with that is, well there's a few. Firstly, many divine arrivals and instructions contradict each other badly, which would be OK if they were from different religious accounts, but they often aren't. The second problem is, these instructions could easily be interpreted or changed by humans. Case in point, Islam. Muhammad, who is a more genuine figure than Jesus Christ, just thought I'd point out, was an illiterate, was he not? And when a definitive version of the Koran was put together, they were parts that had been lefts out and others that had "been" censored, were there not? If there is any authenticity in these claims, they're likely to be blurred by human influence.
 
I'm an athiest, I find it hard to believe in something there is no proof for.
However I don't force these views onto anyone else. That's the only thing I don't like about religion, when people try and force me around to their way of thinking, or make me live by their religion's rules on certain issues e.g. what I can wear and abortion.
I like the way religion helps some people become a better person. I think it's good that God gives some people hope in their lives. But it just isn't for me.
 
I'm a christian, but not a very good one. Growing up, it was never a topic I though about. When I was a teenager, a friend of mine invited me to an afterschool Youthgroup. I went, we played games. There was a little bit of talk about God, but mostly games. I continued going for a while, even though my friends that went stopped going. 6 years later, I still go, and am now a Youth Leader. So basically, I'm supposed to be helping the kids of today learn about God. All I do is get them to play Dodgeball. Basically, I believe in God, but thats as far as being religious as I get.
 
I'm Irish, so your brought up Catholic, but i wouldn't say i'm religious, even though i have a religion, if that makes sense? I don't practice it, as in don't go to church, pray or live my life in accordance with the bible.
 
I am Muslim but i do not practice it, i feel that religion is merly a guide line that we can live our lives by, alot of people are now adapting religion into a form of business and a way to corrupt people who are nieve, its not a good thing and i feel thats whats turning alot of people away from it
 
I sincerely hope no one acts like a fool and starts insulting everyone's beliefs, but I'd like to know about this.

Do you believe we are all decended from two people, or do you believe we evolved from lesser animals.

I believe the latter, although I am Catholic. There is just too much evidence in museums and what we have seen in other animals. All the fossils that have been unearthed, and cave paintings that show us getting gradually smarter.

The Adam and Eve thing has some problems. Genetic problems for one, because we would all be related. It would have taken a long time too, because humans grow up slow. It's not like an ameba. 1 becomes 2, 2 become 4 and so on.

Again, just wonder what you think.

See ya in the trees. :D
 
I myself am a big Christian. I follow the bible and try to be the best christian i can be, sure i have flaws but who doesnt. I dont believe that we evolved from monkeys or the other science stuff, i believe that God created us and we would have eternal life on this planet, but as the bible said adam and eve ate the forbidden fruit and now us as humans have flaws because of that. I'm not the best at debating religion because im not gonna force my christian beliefs onto someone if they dont believe it. But as for me i read the bible and i believe it. I dont see how we can evolve from monkeys in the first place. If that were the case, like someone said earlier wouldnt monkeys be giving birth to humans now? Or if that were the case there shouldnt be any monkeys left on the earth because they should all be humans
 

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