Raw seems to be worse off post-superstar shakeup.

[AegonTargaryen]

For months, most of you had been saying Smackdown is the superior show, far more coherent and engaging, regardless of what the Ratings dictated, and I sort of had to agree. Last year, I liked Raw better, because for a while it gave me an Attitude Era-esque feel, with the intermingling of Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins, Chris Jericho and Kevin Owens on a weekly basis.

However, Raw seems even worse now, following the superstar shakeup(it could be a phase of course, some weeks, no matter what year in Wrestling history, are going to be terrible, and that's fine).

For starters, just check the comments section here on the Raw Results page, which is dripping in negative reviews and reactions, and understandably so.

Here's my Three reasons why I feel Raw is even worse now:-

1)Seth Rollins doesn't seem to be the big star he used to.

May be it's just me, but I have been feeling Seth isn't on the same level as Roman or Brock, and it has been so probably ever since his return in June, considering the way he was booked.

The whole thing where he doesn't turn face upon returning, then gets screwed by HHH, and this time when he does turn face, it doesn't feel that big of a deal, he fails to get the Universal title, all the way to his Wrestlemania victory over HHH.

Surprisingly, he seems to me somewhat similar to Ambrose(despite clearly being one with much more potential and calibre than Ambrose).

2)Raw programming over-all seems to be lacking in legit Stars, with the exception of Roman Reigns and an Absent Lesnar, and gravid with Mid-carders.

Smackdown feels HUGE, with Orton, AJ Styles as the top stars, and they've already established in an instant, Jinder Mahal into a future Star, at least in my estimate. He seems already to be a big deal. Whereas on Raw, Seth Rollins went from being a big deal to just MEH, recently.

Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, Dean Ambrose, Miz, Bray Wyatt, and Seth Rollins.

Time will tell whether Balor and Joe end up being as huge as AJ Styles or not.

For now, even Seth Rollins seems like "just a guy", and as for Ambrose and Miz, they're mid-card acts at best.

You can put it like "Miz or Ambrose are as big of Stars as Brock Lesnar and Roman Reigns", and it doesn't feel right or true.

3)With Jericho leaving, Bray being more of a Theatrical act, and Lesnar being a part-timer, what when one of two of their midcarders get injured?

If Raw seems so bad today, what's going to happen when Jericho is not even around, and one or two of their stars are injured- Rollins, Reigns, Balor, Joe, or Strowman ?

They already have less to work with, in terms of potential matches, because Bray is more of a theatrical scary promos guy, who wrestles mostly on PPVs, just like Taker.

Lesnar shows up 12 times a year.

So an injury or two, and they'll have even less to work with.

How do you feel about Raw lately?

Would you agree that Lesnar and Reigns are the only two legit stars, and the rest seem like potential stars or midcard acts ?

How do you feel about Seth Rollins?

How do you think would the WWE Raw creative team fare, when they have less to work with- no Jericho, no Lesnar, and possibly two injuries?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

For starters, just check the comments section here on the Raw Results page, which is dripping in negative reviews and reactions, and understandably so.

So Raw is getting bashed by internet fans who claim it's shit yet tune in each week to watch anyway. That's pretty much standard operating procedure. Raw has putting out solid shows for quite a while now, some are better than others as that's just how it is. From top to bottom, tonight's show struck me as decent. Nothing overly grand happened but what did happen was okay.

1)Seth Rollins doesn't seem to be the big star he used to.

May be it's just me, but I have been feeling Seth isn't on the same level as Roman or Brock, and it has been so probably ever since his return in June, considering the way he was booked.

The whole thing where he doesn't turn face upon returning, then gets screwed by HHH, and this time when he does turn face, it doesn't feel that big of a deal, he fails to get the Universal title, all the way to his Wrestlemania victory over HHH.

Surprisingly, he seems to me somewhat similar to Ambrose(despite clearly being one with much more potential and calibre than Ambrose).

You know, I'm just not at all sure what people are expecting out of these guys. I mean, it seems like nothing is ever good enough when it comes to Rollins. The ultimate goal upon his return was to build towards his match with Triple H at WrestleMania, then he was injured along the way, had his match and now he's in the midst of a program with Samoa Joe. I mean....I dunno, the guy's embroiled in interesting programs, he's back in the ring putting on good matches, etc. It just seems like everything they've done with Rollins upon his return is perfectly logical.

Also, given the issues with his knee, we have to take into account the possibility that WWE is going a bit slower with Rollins to see how he holds up.

2)Raw programming over-all seems to be lacking in legit Stars, with the exception of Roman Reigns and an Absent Lesnar, and gravid with Mid-carders.

Smackdown feels HUGE, with Orton, AJ Styles as the top stars, and they've already established in an instant, Jinder Mahal into a future Star, at least in my estimate. He seems already to be a big deal. Whereas on Raw, Seth Rollins went from being a big deal to just MEH, recently.

Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, Dean Ambrose, Miz, Bray Wyatt, and Seth Rollins.

Time will tell whether Balor and Joe end up being as huge as AJ Styles or not.

For now, even Seth Rollins seems like "just a guy", and as for Ambrose and Miz, they're mid-card acts at best.

You can put it like "Miz or Ambrose are as big of Stars as Brock Lesnar and Roman Reigns", and it doesn't feel right or true.

Again...I'm just not sure what you expect. Not everybody can be in the main event, nor can every program be pushed like it's a main event feud. I also don't see them as trying put it as though Miz or Ambrose are stars on the same level as Reigns or Lesnar. Personally, I couldn't really give a damn about Roman Reigns, I'm just indifferent to the guy now and really have been for a while. As for Lesnar, WWE just plain fucked up when they put a championship back on Lesnar. IF the ultimate plan Vince has is for Reigns to take the Universal Championship from Lesnar at next year's WrestleMania, then he's hamstrung any potential challenger Lesnar has between now and then. Whether it's Rollins, Balor, Wyatt or whomever, if they keep with the same formula they've been using for Lesnar, then all we have to look forward to in regards to main event title feuds on Raw are a string of disappointments that do nothing more than hurt the credibility of the challengers. That's all on Vince's shoulders, not the wrestlers themselves. Also, slow up just a bit on Jinder Mahal being a "future star." It's going to take a LOT more than Jinder winning a six pack challenge to erase the stink of low-card jobber from him. You can't go from being a low-card jobber to "a big deal" in less than a week's time. I'd like to see if Jinder has some real potential, I want to see how they do following up his big night last week over the next few weeks before I either get on board or write the guy off.

How do you feel about Raw lately?

Would you agree that Lesnar and Reigns are the only two legit stars, and the rest seem like potential stars or midcard acts ?

How do you feel about Seth Rollins?

How do you think would the WWE Raw creative team fare, when they have less to work with- no Jericho, no Lesnar, and possibly two injuries?

I've had no major complaints about Raw. From a consistency standpoint, the show is much stronger today than it was through much of last year. While booking isn't as consistently strong as it is on SmackDown Live and, nor is storytelling, it's still a much better show than it has been. There's not as much pointless filler as there has been and time has been put to better use. For instance, the Cruiserweight, Women's & Tag Team Division have all gotten solid use during Raw in the post WrestleMania season. The Intercontinental Championship has suffered during WrestleMania season and they don't seem to be getting back on track just yet. I wouldn't mind seeing Ambrose in a feud with Jericho, Miz and Wyatt, or possibly just Wyatt as one thing that Wyatt is missing has been a strong title run.

You know why Reigns and Lesnar seem like such big stars? Because Vince has creative twist themselves into knots by booking them with much stronger continuity than the vast majority of the rest of the roster. In the past 4 years, nobody has been booked in WWE as strongly as Brock Lesnar, not even Cena. Reigns is now being groomed as the man who will ultimately slay the Beast Incarnate, which means he'll receive stronger, more consistent booking than just about anyone else and he'll probably almost never lose; when he does lose, it'll most likely be some heavily overbooked protection in which Reigns still comes out looking good while his opponents, sometimes, not so much.

As for Seth Rollins, he's truckin' along just fine in my opinion. He's over with the fans, he's fun to watch in the ring, he's solid on the mic, his feud with Samoa Joe makes perfect sense, etc. I've got no real complaints, I'll just save those for when/if Rollins turns out to be one of Lesnar's sacrificial lambs sometime between now and WrestleMania XXXIV.

Well, when it comes to being able to do more with less, Raw is not on the same level as SmackDown. Being able to make the most of TV time and to use talents that may not be as high profile is what SmackDown Live has become known for since the Draft last year. Right now, Raw is doing a solid job overall. I could nitpick about any number of things, but I could do that with SmackDown Live, ROH, Impact or any other company for that matter. Nothing is particularly magical or epic on Raw right now, but that's very often the case during April and May before things start picking back up over the summer.

 

[The Perfect Max]

Raw at times seems a little directionless, but I'm not sure if that's because it's three hours long and it becomes easy to forget why certain things are happening. To be honest, Raw wasn't too bad this week. Some interesting and pretty good matches took place, and some segments were pretty fun as well.

As far as Seth Rollins goes, I do enjoy watching him perform. However, I do somewhat agree with you in the sense that I'm not OVERLY entertained by him, but that might just be preference of choice. I love watching Finn Balor perform but I'm seeing people quickly turn on him recently and it's a shame. But conversely they love Rollins, so you're never gonna please everybody I guess. Having said that, he's definitely a star. He's been involved in the world title program, the Triple H/WrestleMania feud, and is now going up against a guy people have been begging to see for years in WWE. And he's done an excellent job in all these scenarios. There's not much else he could have done to prove himself really.

If Raw are lacking stars, then SmackDown really is as well. You've got to think that a two hour show is easier to fill and so it seems as if their choices are above and beyond Raw's. I do agree that at times I wonder what it is and why it is that I'm watching absolutely dumb matches on Raw, but that's booking's fault. Raw have Reigns, Strowman, Rollins, Balor, Joe, Miz, Ambrose, Bray, Jericho and more who are main-stays. Raw are absolutely fine. And when Jericho goes and someone gets injured, they will figure it out. They always do.

And as far as Brock Lesnar is concerned, he is a bonus to Raw. I might not always enjoy the presence of these part time guys but I understand their value. If anything, I think Brock being the Universal Champion is a hinderence to Raw. While I think they have stars, nobody can really go anywhere at the moment because there's nothing but Ambrose's title to fight for. But he does bring value for him being himself. That's what puts him on another level. Roman Reigns is just being pushed far beyond anybody right now and so it's hard not to think of him differently to everyone else, but ultimately I don't actually consider him above most of the roster simply for this reason. I see him as another guy involved in another feud. Having said all of that, as the post above says, I'm not overly entertained by the concept of these top Raw guys being the victims of Lesnar's warpath on the road to WrestleMania 34. Now that would make Raw suffer.

 

[Navi]

To me RAW has always come off as being the poorer one between it and Smackdown Live. Some nights it seems like the flagship show is sailing without anyone at the helm. Last night's show was one of those nights.

While the wrestling was fine you can only work with who shows up and what they are given. Yes it was kind of a stinker for a go home show but I can't blame the wrestler's at all.

Reigns has been MIA for a couple of weeks now. I'm sure he is supposed to be after the beatdown by Strowman and of course with his brother's death. Rollins has just come back from another injury and they are probably nursing that so he doesn't get another one. I'll put Balor in that lifeboat as well.

Ambrose, Miz and Jericho are supposed to be midcard and they are holding down the fort pretty well. The Hardy's are in a feud with Sheamus and Cesaro and I'm interested to see where that goes at the PPV. I smell a heel turn coming.

The two bright lights are Alexa Bliss and Braun Strowman, although the dumpster match last night should have stayed in the dumpster. I don't know what I was expecting, but it was a little more than what we got. Really hoping that they change gears though and have Strowman take the title off Lesnar later this year. Don't want to think about a whole year of Lesnar not showing up just to get beat by Reigns.

Bray Wyatt once he finishes with Orton this coming Sunday should be freed up to start up with someone else, although I can't figure out who. Yea RAW last night wasn't the greatest they could have given us, but I watched and will again next week like clockwork hoping for a better show.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Raw put themselves in a tough spot last night. They focused the show on promoting a PPV that:

1) lacked some of their feature talent for said PPV (Orton, Reigns, Owens)
2) doesn't have it's main attraction and champion (Lesnar)
3) is rushing some of their stories due to the superstar shake up happening so recently
4) doesn't know what to do with Finn and neither do I
5) has Bayley as a champion

So yeah, last night was rough to say the least. Seth Rollins is who he is. You're just figuring it out later than most. But overall, it's been like two weeks since the Superstar Shakeup, not exactly much of a sample size to make a determination on quality.

 

[Br0k3n.Lucas]

I'm enjoying RAW currently more than i did during the lead up to Wrestlemania 33. There seems to be less pointless filler, the women and tag team division have felt refreshened and some quality feuds have lined up. Braun Strowman and Roman Reigns is really interesting for me and if the rumours of Strowman facing Lesnar for the WWE Universal Championship soon are true, then I optimistic that Strowman leaves Payback with the win. Rollins and Samoa Joe's feud feels logical, as Joe was the cause of Rollin's knee injury. The Hardy Boyz vs Sheamus and Cesaro seems interesting enough and Bayley vs Alexa Bliss feels fresh. My only real knock and that the Universal Champion is part-time and isnt around and I feel like this could be a great opportunity to give the Intercontinental Championship a real platform to be elevated. Ambrose and The Miz arent scheduled to face each other at Payback so I'll reserve judgement and see what they do in the coming months. Would love to see Miz hold the belt again in all honesty

 

[stingray11214]

Look, Raw, SmackDown and NXT have three very different purposes. Raw is the Soap Opera. It is written for Hollywood starlets, F-Listers, and casuals. If you did not think that was the case, Kalisto's promo last night drove the point home ("I have to do this as a man!") with a promo right out of Disney. SmackDown is written for the fan of Pro Wrestling, being mindful of the casuals that could be watching. NXT is for the Mark, Smark, and Indy fan. It is written for those who would have no problem sitting in St. Finbar's gym, paying $50 or better to watch 8 hours of wrestling, divided by 3 companies, having to use a plug in your derriere to avoid having to use a constantly flooded Men's room, that would make the Men's Room at the old ECW Arena look like the ones you find in Trump Tower. But still have a blast. (Tier1 Wrestling is rising in the Indy scene for a REASON!).

Look, Raw is what it is: a poorly written soap opera that drives you bats. With LONNNNNNNG segments that really have no business being there. The talent is there. But, as long as you have a 71yo man who still thinks Lex Luger should have been the face of the company, Raw will always be written schizo.

 

[TheLoneCharles]

I feel like Raw is heavy in the mid card but lacks at the top of the card. With Lesnar absent it basically leaves Strowman and Reigns as the only two believable contenders.

Smackdown on the other hand is stacked at the top of the card but is lacking at the mid card. AJ, Orton, Mahal being pushed, Corbin rumored to get a main event run, and Owens being a recent former Universal champion makes the top of the card interesting.

Raw also suffers from the ongoing Reigns push, but I won't go there.

 

[JoeMallard]

That's what happens when Vince and his buck tooth friend Kevin Dunn only care about creating one legitimate star.

 

[adam]

I'd like to see what Raw would look like if they turned Strowman face and flipped all 3 members of the old shield heel.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

I somewhat agree with the OP's points but I think the main reason why is what it's always been. RAW is too long. 3 hours is like a PPV every week. For a long time, I've felt like RAW is too long and they try to cram so much stuff into the 3 hours because they have 3 hours to fill. With SD being two hours, I think they are forced to focus more on the stories because they don't have as much time. IMO, RAW gets boring at times simply because there's just so much stuff happening in the 3 hours and it just doesn't seem focused. It seems like RAW has no flow and is sometimes just kinda random overall. I still enjoy RAW but I think dropping down to 2 hours would help RAW significantly.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

RAW is worst because all special attraction are gone after Wrestlemania. Goldberg and Lesnar gone. Undertaker retired. Reigns on hiatus after they squandered his heel turn after retiring Undertaker and building him as face. So we get to building Strowman. Who they are building as someone who apparently cant win in the match because he cant even beat Kalistio. But hey, he has superhuman strength. So much IWC tends to believe he can really lift ambulance car.

Should be OK once Reigns is back, they build Rollins, Balor and maybe Joe and Strowman properly.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

I somewhat agree with the OP's points but I think the main reason why is what it's always been. RAW is too long. 3 hours is like a PPV every week. For a long time, I've felt like RAW is too long and they try to cram so much stuff into the 3 hours because they have 3 hours to fill. With SD being two hours, I think they are forced to focus more on the stories because they don't have as much time. IMO, RAW gets boring at times simply because there's just so much stuff happening in the 3 hours and it just doesn't seem focused. It seems like RAW has no flow and is sometimes just kinda random overall. I still enjoy RAW but I think dropping down to 2 hours would help RAW significantly.

That's it.

I didn't mention the "three hours too long" because they would say "People complain Raw is too long and yet watch it. They need the revenue from the USA network" and so on and so on.

Everything you said is what each and every person here is acutely aware of, and yet it is hardly ever brought up anymore.

I don't know how it was before the brand split, but I would surmise it wasn't nearly as atrocious as 3 hr Raws are following the brand split.

1)They don't have the starpower.
2)They've done the same tag matches, singles matches, women's matches over and over and over.
3)Pointless, absolutely boring segments involving Mick Foley, Stephanie, and now Miz, Dean Ambrose, Jericho.
4)Too many women's segments.

I'm not a fan of Women being put in mainevents, and women's wrestling overall. Not to be a Misogynist, but women being in talk segments week after week is laughable. Who wants to see them bitch?

Even Dean Ambrose and Miz segments are boring as fuck now, so I certainly don't want to see Women bitching and whining(And if they have to, I'd prefer a Sable, Lita, or a Torrie Wilson) .

All of this can simply be prevented by reducing Raw to 2hrs and creating a more coherent, packed show similar to how smackdown has been.

I can't believe people here have been watching those weekly segments involving even Mick Foley and the Women. Then Mick Foley and Stephanie, and then even backstage segments involving Mick, Steph, Sami Zayn and so on. The problem isn't the segments themselves, but the fact that they were superfluous and simply put into the Raw script because they don't have anything else to fill on a 3-hr show.

If women wrestlers need 15-20 min talk segments on a weekly basis, that proves how atrocious 3hr Raws are following the brand split.

Now it's even worse.

I hope something, a divine intervention of sorts causes them to either reduce it to 2, or just end the brand split. May take 2-3 years, who knows.

At least Smackdown was interesting for me this week, despite many claiming how it was "fairly poor". Loved the Nakamura-Ziggler and Orton-Jinder confrontations.

Raw was just terrible.

 

[Navi]

That's it.

I didn't mention the "three hours too long" because they would say "People complain Raw is too long and yet watch it. They need the revenue from the USA network" and so on and so on.

Everything you said is what each and every person here is acutely aware of, and yet it is hardly ever brought up anymore.

I don't know how it was before the brand split, but I would surmise it wasn't nearly as atrocious as 3 hr Raws are following the brand split.

1)They don't have the starpower.
2)They've done the same tag matches, singles matches, women's matches over and over and over.
3)Pointless, absolutely boring segments involving Mick Foley, Stephanie, and now Miz, Dean Ambrose, Jericho.
4)Too many women's segments.

I'm not a fan of Women being put in mainevents, and women's wrestling overall. Not to be a Misogynist, but women being in talk segments week after week is laughable. Who wants to see them bitch?

Even Dean Ambrose and Miz segments are boring as fuck now, so I certainly don't want to see Women bitching and whining(And if they have to, I'd prefer a Sable, Lita, or a Torrie Wilson) .

All of this can simply be prevented by reducing Raw to 2hrs and creating a more coherent, packed show similar to how smackdown has been.

I can't believe people here have been watching those weekly segments involving even Mick Foley and the Women. Then Mick Foley and Stephanie, and then even backstage segments involving Mick, Steph, Sami Zayn and so on. The problem isn't the segments themselves, but the fact that they were superfluous and simply put into the Raw script because they don't have anything else to fill on a 3-hr show.

If women wrestlers need 15-20 min talk segments on a weekly basis, that proves how atrocious 3hr Raws are following the brand split.

Now it's even worse.

I hope something, a divine intervention of sorts causes them to either reduce it to 2, or just end the brand split. May take 2-3 years, who knows.

At least Smackdown was interesting for me this week, despite many claiming how it was "fairly poor". Loved the Nakamura-Ziggler and Orton-Jinder confrontations.

Raw was just terrible.

The general consensus for a long time now is that RAW is too long, but they are not going to cut it back. It's been 5 years and while many fans who watch and some inside the WWE like Mick Foley for example have said the same thing, it will not change. Foley described it as "an anchor around your neck". Trying to fill the time with backstage segments is the only thing they can do.

As for the women, you'd better get used to seeing them. They've all been pushed for over a year now and it will likely stay that way as well. Why don't you do what other's who watch do when these segments come on. Go get a snack, use the washroom, if you smoke go have a cigarette, it's not like someone it sitting there with a gun to your head making you watch it. Yes it can be quite boring and can take away from any momentum the show has, but 3 hours is a long time to fill on live TV and they have to do something.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

Braun Strowman, Roman Reigns and Brock Lesnar are carrying RAW on their backs. That's the sad truth. Their segments are the only segments that are interesting and fans are invested in.

I agree that Rollins feels lost and certainly doesn't seem on a higher level than the one he was two years ago. And it's sad. It feels like he has reached his potential, yet his pops lack loudness.

Bray is also lost at the moment. He needs to fit on somewhere and doesn't.

Balor and Joe seem fresh and out of place.

Ambrose seems like he has really lost his edge. And The Miz doesn't carry the same momentum as he did 3 months ago.

RAW really got shaken up after the shake-up. Lots of new names. Lots of talent to play with. I think that for the time being, all these new faces need time to fit in. The pool of talent is just too big and everyone seems to be in the same pond.

 

[Navi]

Braun Strowman, Roman Reigns and Brock Lesnar are carrying RAW on their backs. That's the sad truth. Their segments are the only segments that are interesting and fans are invested in.

I agree that Rollins feels lost and certainly doesn't seem on a higher level than the one he was two years ago. And it's sad. It feels like he has reached his potential, yet his pops lack loudness.

Bray is also lost at the moment. He needs to fit on somewhere and doesn't.

Balor and Joe seem fresh and out of place.

Ambrose seems like he has really lost his edge. And The Miz doesn't carry the same momentum as he did 3 months ago.

RAW really got shaken up after the shake-up. Lots of new names. Lots of talent to play with. I think that for the time being, all these new faces need time to fit in. The pool of talent is just too big and everyone seems to be in the same pond.

I would disagree that Lesnar is carrying the show, the guy is never there. As a matter of fact have we even seen him since Wrestlemania? And what happened to the "have to defend the title every month", that has caused others to lose it? Giving Lesnar the title was the worst decision the WWE could have made right now seeing what's going on.

Feel bad for Rollins as I'm sure he isn't 100% healed. Another injury like the one he suffered before could end his career. His knee can only take so much punishment, but I agree he doesn't seem as over as he was before.

Balor should have a shot at the title considering he had to give it up because of injury. An absent champion however makes that almost impossible. Besides does anyone really believe that Balor is a match for Lesnar? I don't.

Bray is lost and don't see what they will do with him. Ambrose is staler than 3 week old bread. The Miz really needs to win the US title as he is gold when he has one. When the highlight of the show each week is Strowman tipping things over, while it's great TV, you have problems.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

I would disagree that Lesnar is carrying the show, the guy is never there. As a matter of fact have we even seen him since Wrestlemania? And what happened to the "have to defend the title every month", that has caused others to lose it? Giving Lesnar the title was the worst decision the WWE could have made right now seeing what's going on.

Feel bad for Rollins as I'm sure he isn't 100% healed. Another injury like the one he suffered before could end his career. His knee can only take so much punishment, but I agree he doesn't seem as over as he was before.

Balor should have a shot at the title considering he had to give it up because of injury. An absent champion however makes that almost impossible. Besides does anyone really believe that Balor is a match for Lesnar? I don't.

Bray is lost and don't see what they will do with him. Ambrose is staler than 3 week old bread. The Miz really needs to win the US title as he is gold when he has one. When the highlight of the show each week is Strowman tipping things over, while it's great TV, you have problems.

First of all, for your previous post, LOL@ your suggestions as to how I could do something else during Women's segments.

I'm not sure I'd be motivated to watch an entire 3-hr Raw ever again, even if someone pays me to, so No. I usually fast forward through most of the segments and show, and I never ever watch anything Women-related, whether it's Raw, or Smackdown. I don't mind Lana, of course.

The WWE giving the title to Lesnar is indeed a bad decision, but it only points out to DNA's point that Lesnar's segments, as stale and bland as they happen to be, still generate more buzz and interest than your Miz, Ambrose, Owens, Balor, and even Seth Rollins segments. And I'd like to believe Roman, as much as he's booed and defiantly deprecated by the live audience and IWC alike, is the only guy that consistently derives that sort of a Buzz or Interest, even if fans want to believe otherwise(Case in point-his Post-WM Raw segment). Followed by Strowman.

Also, Roman beating Lesnar after all that build would make him far more of a bigger deal than he already is, and give him that stamp of credibility as "The big dog" once he beats Lesnar, clearly transforming him into a Megastar for years to come. That is why Lesnar has to be the Champion and lose the title to Roman on his way out of the WWE.

Would Roman beating Seth, Dean, Balor or Samoa Joe give him that credibility?

Also, with the exception of Cena, he's pretty much beaten every major star there is to beat- Randy Orton, Daniel Bryan, HHH AJ Styles, and The Undertaker.

Even if you dislike it, Reigns will be that guy carrying the company as their biggest attraction at the same level as Cena and Lesnar, with Seth Rollins and AJ Styles may be coming close.

Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, Dean Ambrose, and Kevin Owens won't. And as much as they're pushing Bray Wyatt and Braun Strowman, they'll always be side attractions, just like Jake the Snake, Undertaker(throughout the 90s), Mankind, and Big Show.

Also, I'd like to add this in response to the statement in BOLD- I don't believe Balor is a match for Lesnar either. I noticed on Raw, he's just so skinny? Basically looks like a cruiserweight.

I've always rooted for Kurt Angle over just about anybody, and even though Angle was considerably shorter than Rock, Austin, HHH and Lesnar, he just never seemed out of place with them. May be it's not just his physique but his downright intensity.

So I don't mean to seem like a Jerk who deprecates "smaller" wrestlers in favour of the Lesnars, Roman Reigns' and Rocks.

Kevin Owens and Samoa Joe are chubby, Seth Rollins looks like how a Wrestler ought to, and Finn Balor looks like he belongs in the cruiserweight division.

I just don't understand how you can take someone like that seriously, in matches against Orton, Reigns or Lesnar.

 

[ShinChan]

1)Seth Rollins doesn't seem to be the big star he used to.

May be it's just me, but I have been feeling Seth isn't on the same level as Roman or Brock, and it has been so probably ever since his return in June, considering the way he was booked.

The whole thing where he doesn't turn face upon returning, then gets screwed by HHH, and this time when he does turn face, it doesn't feel that big of a deal, he fails to get the Universal title, all the way to his Wrestlemania victory over HHH.

Surprisingly, he seems to me somewhat similar to Ambrose(despite clearly being one with much more potential and calibre than Ambrose).

He's a potential star. The best of Shield. You yourselves question his booking and that's the problem itself. The guy was losing multiple times to Kevin Owens in Championship matches while doing nothing about the backstabbing of Triple H. Dumb feud. Dragged until Wrestlemania and hurted Rollins a lot.

2)Raw programming over-all seems to be lacking in legit Stars, with the exception of Roman Reigns and an Absent Lesnar, and gravid with Mid-carders.

Smackdown feels HUGE, with Orton, AJ Styles as the top stars, and they've already established in an instant, Jinder Mahal into a future Star, at least in my estimate. He seems already to be a big deal. Whereas on Raw, Seth Rollins went from being a big deal to just MEH, recently.

Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, Dean Ambrose, Miz, Bray Wyatt, and Seth Rollins.

Time will tell whether Balor and Joe end up being as huge as AJ Styles or not.

For now, even Seth Rollins seems like "just a guy", and as for Ambrose and Miz, they're mid-card acts at best.

You can put it like "Miz or Ambrose are as big of Stars as Brock Lesnar and Roman Reigns", and it doesn't feel right or true.

There's no one near Roman Reigns or Brock Lesnar because of Superman booking. Tell me if anyone else got such booking? Nopes. So how can you consider them stars but not others who ain't booked well. Brock Lesnar leaving again as the champion is also dumb. That's why I didn't want another title reign for him.

Also, Jinder is nowhere near being a star. The guy was hotshotted suddenly. He lost to Mojo Rawley of all people a week prior to becoming a No. 1 contender. At least, give him some prior momentum.

Considering that there's no Brock Lesnar, the roster at Raw is more deep for upper midcard level. At Smackdown, we have to watch Jinder Mahal get an opportunity.

Also, you forgot counting Braun Strowman here.

3)With Jericho leaving, Bray being more of a Theatrical act, and Lesnar being a part-timer, what when one of two of their midcarders get injured?

If Raw seems so bad today, what's going to happen when Jericho is not even around, and one or two of their stars are injured- Rollins, Reigns, Balor, Joe, or Strowman ?

They already have less to work with, in terms of potential matches, because Bray is more of a theatrical scary promos guy, who wrestles mostly on PPVs, just like Taker.

Lesnar shows up 12 times a year.

So an injury or two, and they'll have even less to work with.

We'll most probably get a lot of repetition.

How do you feel about Raw lately?

It's been mediocre but better than in the past since Wrestlemania.

Would you agree that Lesnar and Reigns are the only two legit stars, and the rest seem like potential stars or midcard acts ?

No way. Reigns ain't a star for me. He has done it all and only needs a win against Brock Lesnar and John Cena. But I don't feel like he's a star.

How do you feel about Seth Rollins?

Mismanaged in one word.

How do you think would the WWE Raw creative team fare, when they have less to work with- no Jericho, no Lesnar, and possibly two injuries?

Fingers crossed on any injury.

 

[MWRedskins]

first things first....Jinder Mahal was on RAW and WWE was treating him like a jobber and it wasnt until he moved to Smackdown that WWE decided, hey, let's actually treat him decently and honestly, i am no fan of it because 1) i feel that he's better for RAW and 2) i wanted an Orton heel turn and for him to face AJ and Sami Zayn.

With that said, RAW is a bit directionless now, but it's only because it's a few weeks into the shakeup. give this time, they could still turn Ambrose or Balor heel (my hope is Ambrose) and move him up the card a bit. my guess is that eventually Miz will take the IC title off Ambrose and then lose it to either Balor or another young face....also, whenever they want, WWE could call up an nxt star and move him to RAW...but i think the issue right now is it's still early in the shakeup. Eventually Braun and/or Roman will feud with Lesnar....eventually the IC title will have a feud and now that Crews is off smackdown, maybe he can improve on a three hour show. as for the Women's division, they're clearly setting up a Banks heel turn and that will only bring intrigue to the Women's title as both Banks and Bayley will steal the show and have a great series of matches.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

That's it.

I didn't mention the "three hours too long" because they would say "People complain Raw is too long and yet watch it. They need the revenue from the USA network" and so on and so on.

Everything you said is what each and every person here is acutely aware of, and yet it is hardly ever brought up anymore.

I don't know how it was before the brand split, but I would surmise it wasn't nearly as atrocious as 3 hr Raws are following the brand split.

Please don't make me go back and quote one or all of your awful posts from before WM season where you consistently praised Raw and insulted SD. Because I'm pretty sure those were three hour shows as well.

1)They don't have the starpower.
2)They've done the same tag matches, singles matches, women's matches over and over and over.
3)Pointless, absolutely boring segments involving Mick Foley, Stephanie, and now Miz, Dean Ambrose, Jericho.
4)Too many women's segments.

I'm not a fan of Women being put in mainevents, and women's wrestling overall. Not to be a Misogynist, but women being in talk segments week after week is laughable. Who wants to see them bitch?

Are you really bitching about bitching?

And we get it, women are not your thing, now stop running it in our faces. We support your lifestyle.

Even Dean Ambrose and Miz segments are boring as fuck now, so I certainly don't want to see Women bitching and whining(And if they have to, I'd prefer a Sable, Lita, or a Torrie Wilson) .

All of this can simply be prevented by reducing Raw to 2hrs and creating a more coherent, packed show similar to how smackdown has been.

While I'm not going to argue I still find it really funny that you were praising the heck out of three hour Raws like four months ago.

I can't believe people here have been watching those weekly segments involving even Mick Foley and the Women. Then Mick Foley and Stephanie, and then even backstage segments involving Mick, Steph, Sami Zayn and so on. The problem isn't the segments themselves, but the fact that they were superfluous and simply put into the Raw script because they don't have anything else to fill on a 3-hr show.

Your original premise for this thread was Raw since the Superstar Shakeup, none of the people you mentioned above have been on Raw since then. All two weeks.

If women wrestlers need 15-20 min talk segments on a weekly basis, that proves how atrocious 3hr Raws are following the brand split.

Now it's even worse.

I hope something, a divine intervention of sorts causes them to either reduce it to 2, or just end the brand split. May take 2-3 years, who knows.

Agreed, except you were raving about three hour Raws like four months ago.

At least Smackdown was interesting for me this week, despite many claiming how it was "fairly poor". Loved the Nakamura-Ziggler and Orton-Jinder confrontations.

Raw was just terrible.

I didn't watch SD this week but yes, Raw was bad. It has been bad since the Superstar Shakeup, all two weeks of it.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Please don't make me go back and quote one or all of your awful posts from before WM season where you consistently praised Raw and insulted SD. Because I'm pretty sure those were three hour shows as well.

And there's a WWE or Wrestling Law which states that "A fan must be condemned to like one show and praise one show forever and if he or she were to dislike the other show, they must be steadfast and never change in their views, beliefs or opinions", right?

The booking changes, the stars change, the storylines change. You can totally hate what Smackdown is doing one year, and like Raw, and vice versa, depending on those particular storylines, wrestlers and the overall emphases.

Get it? Good.

If I liked 3hr Raws before, even slightly, may be it's because they were focusing on certain things and I was invested, but nonetheless it was still a lot of filler which I clearly wasn't a fan of.

Today I find much of it trash. I have that prerogative. If they cannot book a coherent and packed 3-hr Raw TODAY, then as a fan I have every right to complain and criticize.

Your "be consistent with your views through time" argument is specious.

But good effort.

Are you really bitching about bitching?

And we get it, women are not your thing, now stop running it in our faces. We support your lifestyle.

Women being given 20-30 minutes or more every week on two separate WWE shows in a "wrestling" role isn't my thing.

I wouldn't mind Kimberley Page(she was a bomb), Sable(in her prime), Torrie Wilson, and Lana doing things to one other for 30 minutes, every episode of Raw though. Put that on RAW and then that's my thing.

Do you support that? Please say YES.

 

[LBGetBack]

First of all, for your previous post, LOL@ your suggestions as to how I could do something else during Women's segments.

I'm not sure I'd be motivated to watch an entire 3-hr Raw ever again, even if someone pays me to, so No. I usually fast forward through most of the segments and show, and I never ever watch anything Women-related, whether it's Raw, or Smackdown. I don't mind Lana, of course.

The WWE giving the title to Lesnar is indeed a bad decision, but it only points out to DNA's point that Lesnar's segments, as stale and bland as they happen to be, still generate more buzz and interest than your Miz, Ambrose, Owens, Balor, and even Seth Rollins segments. And I'd like to believe Roman, as much as he's booed and defiantly deprecated by the live audience and IWC alike, is the only guy that consistently derives that sort of a Buzz or Interest, even if fans want to believe otherwise(Case in point-his Post-WM Raw segment). Followed by Strowman.

Also, Roman beating Lesnar after all that build would make him far more of a bigger deal than he already is, and give him that stamp of credibility as "The big dog" once he beats Lesnar, clearly transforming him into a Megastar for years to come. That is why Lesnar has to be the Champion and lose the title to Roman on his way out of the WWE.

Would Roman beating Seth, Dean, Balor or Samoa Joe give him that credibility?

Also, with the exception of Cena, he's pretty much beaten every major star there is to beat- Randy Orton, Daniel Bryan, HHH AJ Styles, and The Undertaker.

Even if you dislike it, Reigns will be that guy carrying the company as their biggest attraction at the same level as Cena and Lesnar, with Seth Rollins and AJ Styles may be coming close.

Finn Balor, Samoa Joe, Dean Ambrose, and Kevin Owens won't. And as much as they're pushing Bray Wyatt and Braun Strowman, they'll always be side attractions, just like Jake the Snake, Undertaker(throughout the 90s), Mankind, and Big Show.

Also, I'd like to add this in response to the statement in BOLD- I don't believe Balor is a match for Lesnar either. I noticed on Raw, he's just so skinny? Basically looks like a cruiserweight.

I've always rooted for Kurt Angle over just about anybody, and even though Angle was considerably shorter than Rock, Austin, HHH and Lesnar, he just never seemed out of place with them. May be it's not just his physique but his downright intensity.

So I don't mean to seem like a Jerk who deprecates "smaller" wrestlers in favour of the Lesnars, Roman Reigns' and Rocks.

Kevin Owens and Samoa Joe are chubby, Seth Rollins looks like how a Wrestler ought to, and Finn Balor looks like he belongs in the cruiserweight division.

I just don't understand how you can take someone like that seriously, in matches against Orton, Reigns or Lesnar.

Man, if anything the women should get more time. Sasha Banks and Alexa Bliss are as good as anybody else on the Raw roster.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

And there's a WWE or Wrestling Law which states that "A fan must be condemned to like one show and praise one show forever and if he or she were to dislike the other show, they must be steadfast and never change in their views, beliefs or opinions", right?

The booking changes, the stars change, the storylines change. You can totally hate what Smackdown is doing one year, and like Raw, and vice versa, depending on those particular storylines, wrestlers and the overall emphases.

Get it? Good.

If I liked 3hr Raws before, even slightly, may be it's because they were focusing on certain things and I was invested, but nonetheless it was still a lot of filler which I clearly wasn't a fan of.

Today I find much of it trash. I have that prerogative. If they cannot book a coherent and packed 3-hr Raw TODAY, then as a fan I have every right to complain and criticize.

Your "be consistent with your views through time" argument is specious.


But good effort.

Either you're intentionally being obtuse or your reading comprehension has gone to shit because you didn't understanding my point at all.

You complain about Raw being 3 hours yet you claimed to love Raw last year even though those Raws were also three hours. You're allowed to change your opinion on things that have changed, you're allowed to change your opinion but there is no changing the facts.

You are bitching about Raw being three hours now but they were able to do three hour shows last year to your pleasure.

Women being given 20-30 minutes or more every week on two separate WWE shows in a "wrestling" role isn't my thing.

Again this is nothing new.

I wouldn't mind Kimberley Page(she was a bomb), Sable(in her prime), Torrie Wilson, and Lana doing things to one other for 30 minutes, every episode of Raw though. Put that on RAW and then that's my thing.

Do you support that? Please say YES.

No, I have young kids and porn is better for titillation.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Women being given 20-30 minutes or more every week on two separate WWE shows in a "wrestling" role isn't my thing.

I wouldn't mind Kimberley Page(she was a bomb), Sable(in her prime), Torrie Wilson, and Lana doing things to one other for 30 minutes, every episode of Raw though. Put that on RAW and then that's my thing.

Do you support that? Please say YES.

Can't say that I do because when I watch a wrestling program, I'm interested in the aspects of a wrestling program including wrestling matches, promos, brawls, etc. To me, bra & panty matches, lingerie matches, pillow fights, bikini contests, etc. have no place. I admit that I may have gotten a thrill about that sort of thing 20 years ago, but I also thought cursing on television was the epitome of cool at age 16. If I want to see women reduced to airhead ****s with nothing to contribute except serving as *********ory fodder, I'll just use the internet.

If a person can work well inside the ring, has an interesting persona, can deliver decent work on the mic, then I don't really care what the gender is so long as I'm entertained. And for a wrestling program, that means actually being a wrestler, not a glorified fluffer.

 

[AegonTargaryen]

Can't say that I do because when I watch a wrestling program, I'm interested in the aspects of a wrestling program including wrestling matches, promos, brawls, etc. To me, bra & panty matches, lingerie matches, pillow fights, bikini contests, etc. have no place. I admit that I may have gotten a thrill about that sort of thing 20 years ago, but I also thought cursing on television was the epitome of cool at age 16. If I want to see women reduced to airhead ****s with nothing to contribute except serving as *********ory fodder, I'll just use the internet.

If a person can work well inside the ring, has an interesting persona, can deliver decent work on the mic, then I don't really care what the gender is so long as I'm entertained. And for a wrestling program, that means actually being a wrestler, not a glorified fluffer.

That's cool. Sure it shouldn't really matter what the gender is as long as they have a good persona, can wrestle, etc.

The stuff Lita could do was phenomenal.

I just don't really feel like watching women into bodybuilding(the very masculine ones like Chyna or to an extent Charlotte), MMA or any form of combat sport, and Wrestling. I find it absurd that women should decide to pursue something that's essentially masculine- war, fighting, aggression, violence.

On the one hand, most female wrestlers have such fragile bodies- like Carmella, Eva Marie and Summer Rae- one is afraid they might just break- and it hurts to see them being thrown around in the ring and put into submission holds.

And if they happen to have sufficiently strong bodies, then they're neither feminine, nor exactly masculine, like Chyna or Charlotte.

Can women be athletic or wrestle fairly well? Sure. Can they be interesting in wrestling ? To an extent.

Nature and Evolution designed the masculine biology and energy in a way that we're programmed to hunt, go to war, enjoy violence, aggression, domination, penetration, quest for freedom, and adventure. Feminine energy to be controlled, given a role, to take care of the young, nurture them, and qualities associated with that energy being compassion, warmth and such.

If it weren't so, the history of men would be Josephine and Cleopatra going to war, and Napoleon Bonaparte and Julius Caesar being the mistresses; Shakespeare being a stage actress, and some woman being Shakespeare instead.

Feminine energy is essentially about nurturing and supporting, masculine about conquests, warfare, violence, aggression.

HHH, Rock, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Sting, Taker, each talking about "going to war", beating the hell out of each other, talking about accomplishments and glory...makes sense, and is something any masculine man would be attracted to or driven by.

I can't say the same for Sasha Banks and Charlotte. They can have whatever persona, bleed, put up a great match. But there's still fundamental differences between them and the aforementioned. Those differences being not socio-political constructions of Gender, but evolution-determined energy and role.

On a side note, Aksana was just so hot and even though she was into lifting weights, she was quite feminine, and her on-screen portrayal- devastatingly seductive.

That's how I prefer women in wrestling. To admire Cesaro and Daniel Bryan's wrestling, and Aksana's hot body and feminine energy and role(subservient to Cesaro).

Also, I'd like to add that I'm not espousing that women should be reduced or relapsed into their previous portrayals as mere objects and insulted.

I just find the idea of more and more women "fighting" whether in MMA or Wrestling, to be quite contrary to their nature and not appealing for the aforementioned reasons.

Not everyone will agree with me(Mark Madden and probably Jim Cornette might) but in the end, Wrestling's past-present-and-future glory will always consist of and evoke images of Austin-Bret, Shawn-Bret, Roman Reigns- (some future epic opponent), Angle-Brock, Angle-Shawn, Taker-Shawn, and certainly the iconic Sting.