Randy Orton- General Thread

[Paradox]

The cutoff date of 2006 is very convenient with you man because in 2005 Orton had a much better year than Cena.

He did? He was Champ for nearly the whole year. He had a great I quit match with JBL. A solid feud with Jericho. A good feud with Angle. Orton did have a great feud with 'Taker, but not all of their matches where classics. Cena's I quit match was closer to a classic then the majority of Orton's match. Though his match with 'Taker at Mania was his best match of the year.

I think you have a low expectation rate for great matches Cena and Orton have had good matches but neither have had great ones.

No he doesn't. Cena since 05 has had some great matches. The I quit match was amazing. His match TLC match with Edge? One of the best 1 on 1 TLC matches. His last man standing match with Umaga. How about his Mania match against HBK, or the hour long Raw Match with Hbk? His match with Orton at SummerSlam was very good. His match with Triple H at NoC another great match.

In 2005 Orton had an amazing feud with the Undertaker he had at least two good matches and probably three. (WM SS and HIAC).

He did, but neither the HIAC or the SS match was near the level of the Mania match.

I like Cena I really do him and Orton are the future top face and top heel. I've always felt the WWE should keep them as far away from each other as possible in order to create a classic encounter obviously this didn't happen.

Agreed, but I don't think Orton is the top heel anymore. His character fell a lot after Mania. I believe Punk is the top heel.

If you want to compare the two don't use 2006 as a cutoff Orton had wayyyyyy better years than Cena in 2004-2005 while Cena had better years in 2006-2007.

Wasn't that when Cena had a great mid-card feud with Booker? I believe it was.

I feel Orton had a better year than Cena in 2008 partly because of his injury but oh well.

Really? Orton was out for a lengthy amount of time as well. What great match did he have last year?

 

[Christian Battlez]

He did? He was Champ for nearly the whole year. He had a great I quit match with JBL. A solid feud with Jericho. A good feud with Angle. Orton did have a great feud with 'Taker, but not all of their matches where classics. Cena's I quit match was closer to a classic then the majority of Orton's match. Though his match with 'Taker at Mania was his best match of the year.

He was champ for the whole year and bored the shit out of most people during it. His "solid" feud with Jericho lasted two months. His "good" feud with Angle also lasted two months and made Cena and Angle look like shit. Orton's match with Taker at WM and the HIAC were BOTH better than the I-Quit match.

No he doesn't. Cena since 05 has had some great matches. The I quit match was amazing. His match TLC match with Edge? One of the best 1 on 1 TLC matches. His last man standing match with Umaga. How about his Mania match against HBK, or the hour long Raw Match with Hbk? His match with Orton at SummerSlam was very good. His match with Triple H at NoC another great match.

The match with Umaga was shit. Of course he lloked great against HBK. His matches with Orton and HHH were both great. So you've proven to me that when working with talented proven performers Cena looks good in the ring.

He did, but neither the HIAC or the SS match was near the level of the Mania match.

All three were great though

Agreed, but I don't think Orton is the top heel anymore. His character fell a lot after Mania. I believe Punk is the top heel.

You mean the guy who beats up referees Explain to me how Orton has fallen off he has only become stronger.

Really? Orton was out for a lengthy amount of time as well. What great match did he have last year?

Randy Orton vs Jeff Hardy Royal Rumble 2008, Randy Orton vs John Cena vs Triple H Wrestlemania 24, Randy Orton vs JBL vs Triple H vs John Cena Backlash 2008, Randy Orton vs Triple H Steel Cage Match Judgment Day 2004.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

The only match out of that list that I consider a top match is his one against Kurt Angle at One Night Stand and just barely. Cena has had better matches with HBK, Umaga, HHH, Lashley, Edge, and even got two good matches out of Khali. Cena is a more consistent top notch performer than Orton can ever dream of. Orton was having good matches in 2005 but that was four years ago. His matches haven't improved any since then but they haven't regressed.

 

[Paradox]

He was champ for the whole year and bored the shit out of most people during it. His "solid" feud with Jericho lasted two months. His "good" feud with Angle also lasted two months and made Cena and Angle look like shit. Orton's match with Taker at WM and the HIAC were BOTH better than the I-Quit match.

Angle and Cena didn't look like shit... Come on, I don' think I've seen Angle ever look like shit and he's been in some weird feuds.

The match with Umaga was shit. Of course he lloked great against HBK. His matches with Orton and HHH were both great. So you've proven to me that when working with talented proven performers Cena looks good in the ring.

Did you even watch that match? It was one of the better matches of the year... What the hell has Orton done that makes him so great? His last great feud was with 'Taker who made that feud. Name a match that Orton has that was great with someone who was inferior to him? He had a feud with Edge who carried him. He had a feud with Foley who carried him. He had a feud with 'Taker who carried him. He was a member of RKO, where Edge carried him again. What did he do for the first part of 07? Nothing! It wasn't until he got in feud with Cena that he mattered again.

All three were great though

The Hell In A Cell wasn't even one of the better HIAC matches. Oh and who carried those matches? 'Taker....

You mean the guy who beats up referees Explain to me how Orton has fallen off he has only become stronger.

Let's think about this... Where was he before Mania? He was one of the most feared and hated men in the company. No one knew what he was going to do... Since then he's been made to look weak, his reign from backlash last to extreme rules was a joke! He looked like one of the weakest champion's I've seen. I'll be it, as of late he been getting back, but he's no where near the level he was beginning of the year.

Randy Orton vs Jeff Hardy Royal Rumble 2008,

Decent... not great, but not horrible... Who carried that match? It wasn't Orton.

Randy Orton vs John Cena vs Triple H Wrestlemania 24,

Since they've been doing triple threats this is the worst of them....

Randy Orton vs JBL vs Triple H vs John Cena Backlash 2008,

Yeah that was a great match... No....

Randy Orton vs Triple H Steel Cage Match Judgment Day 2004.

Not that great, and then he was gone until October....

 

[Christian Battlez]

Angle and Cena didn't look like shit... Come on, I don' think I've seen Angle ever look like shit and he's been in some weird feuds.

What about Survivor Series when Cena kept taking down Daivari and then taking Angle back down and he still overcame all the odds. it was a fucking handicapped match practically. Cena had everything stacked against him and he still came out on top. Woopdee do. It made Angle look weak and made Cena look like an idiot. Do you wanna know why people like Superman? Because he at least has one weakness. John Cena seemingly has none thus there is no hope that he could ever lose. This was the fear from 2005-2007 with John Cena.

Did you even watch that match? It was one of the better matches of the year... What the hell has Orton done that makes him so great? His last great feud was with 'Taker who made that feud. Name a match that Orton has that was great with someone who was inferior to him? He had a feud with Edge who carried him. He had a feud with Foley who carried him. He had a feud with 'Taker who carried him. He was a member of RKO, where Edge carried him again. What did he do for the first part of 07? Nothing! It wasn't until he got in feud with Cena that he mattered again.

I thought the match was shit. Two shitty wrestlers makes a shitty match. If it was one of the better matches of the year its because that was a shitty year. What has Orton done that makes him so great. How about being a 6 time WWE champion, or the youngest World Heavyweight Champion in history, or having one of the greatest Intercontinental Championship reigns of all time, or making a career out of killing legends, or taking out the entire McMahon family. I could go on forever. His feud with Undertaker was awesome yes but Taker didn't neccessarily make that feud. Both men helped make that feud memorable. From Taker barely pulling out the win at WM to Orton winning at SS, then beating Taker in a casket match at No Mercy and lighting it on fire, then Taker beats him up in HIAC. Orton was just as important as Taker in that feud. Besides Taker/Orton wasn't his last great feud. Cena/Orton was which just ended meaning he is still relevant and before that it was Orton/HHH. I don't know where you get all this stuff about Orton being carried in every major fedu he has ever been in. He was just as important as the other guy in every feud he has been in. In early 2007 he was in Rated RKO feuding with DX and planting the seeds for another feud with Edge before Kennedy got hurt again and Smackdown needed Edge. At least you admit Cena needed Randy too.

Let's think about this... Where was he before Mania? He was one of the most feared and hated men in the company. No one knew what he was going to do... Since then he's been made to look weak, his reign from backlash last to extreme rules was a joke! He looked like one of the weakest champion's I've seen. I'll be it, as of late he been getting back, but he's no where near the level he was beginning of the year.

If he is being booked to look weak you can blame creative, and if you think you know whats going on in a sociopath like Randy Orton's head then good luck explaining it. His reign was a joke blame Vince for playing favorites with big dumb dave. At the beginning of the year he had a ton of momentum but it was all killed when HHH got greedy at Wrestlemania.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Orton's long championship reign wasn't all that spectacular. Let's go through it shall we...

Cyber Sunday vs. HBK- Gets disqualified and receives Sweet Chin Music for his troubles.
Survivor Series vs. HBK- Beats HBK since HBK couldn't use SCM.
Armageddon vs. Jericho- JBL interferes
Royal Rumble vs. Jeff Hardy- Decent match, good but not great
No Way Out vs. Cena- Gets disqualified
WM 24 vs. HHH and Cena- Was more about HHH and Cena than Orton
Backlash vs. HHH, Cena, and JBL- Lost title

So Orton isn't that great champion everyone thinks he is. He is better chasing the title than holding it at this point.

 

[Christian Battlez]

Orton's long championship reign wasn't all that spectacular. Let's go through it shall we...

Cyber Sunday vs. HBK- Gets disqualified and receives Sweet Chin Music for his troubles.
Survivor Series vs. HBK- Beats HBK since HBK couldn't use SCM.
Armageddon vs. Jericho- JBL interferes
Royal Rumble vs. Jeff Hardy- Decent match, good but not great
No Way Out vs. Cena- Gets disqualified
WM 24 vs. HHH and Cena- Was more about HHH and Cena than Orton
Backlash vs. HHH, Cena, and JBL- Lost title

So Orton isn't that great champion everyone thinks he is. He is better chasing the title than holding it at this point.

All of those things were great ways for Orton to get heat. Getting intentionally disqualified or countend out. He was a great heel champion. The exception was Wrestlemania. It was built up that either Triple H and Cena were going to win either way and noone gave Orton a chance in hell to win based off of how his reign had gone down thus far. With all his intentional countouts and disqualification title defenses there was no way he was gonna beat HHH and John Cena. Then he beat them both thus solidifying the Age of Orton.

 

[Southwind]

I believe Punk is the top heel.

Wait the guy who has a gimmick that is failing now ? A gimmick than only works when your facing an actual drug addict like Jeff Hardy ?

CM Punk = Boring his matches put me to sleep yeah he can talk but so can Santino Punk can't work a crowd in the ring and doesn't have any clue what heel psychology is he could learn a lot from Orton.

How conveniant Paradox and LJL Orton was "carried" in all his matches yet Cena made all his great ?

Orton carried Cena in the Iron Man Match his twisted ideas made that match what it was.

If you have seen one Cena gimmick match you have seen them all JBL vs. Cena average Cena made Angle look weak and pathetic that's the guy Orton can't touch the guy who made Kurt Angle look bad ?

Randy Orton vs. Kurt Angle >>>> John Cena vs. Kurt Angle

Randy Orton vs. The Undertaker >>>>>> any John Cena fued.

Cena and Umaga a great match ?? That's a stretch wait that's a bigger stretch than the great wall of china that match was awful.

Paradox is a joke he claims he wants Orton to "succeed" yet he constantly bashes him when you confront him on it he takes the cop put "prove it" wow pathetic !!

Cena's title reign in 2005 was sub par at best his match with Jericho was no good his feud with JBL was average at best and he made Angle look weak so that feud failed.

If Orton had a feud with Edge it would surpass any of the Cena Edge matches.

I guess what I'm trying to say is John Cena can't lace Randy Orton's boots.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Wait the guy who has a gimmick that is failing now ? A gimmick than only works when your facing an actual drug addict like Jeff Hardy ?

CM Punk = Boring his matches put me to sleep yeah he can talk but so can Santino Punk can't work a crowd in the ring and doesn't have any clue what heel psychology is he could learn a lot from Orton.

How conveniant Paradox and LJL Orton was "carried" in all his matches yet Cena made all his great ?

Orton carried Cena in the Iron Man Match his twisted ideas made that match what it was.

If you have seen one Cena gimmick match you have seen them all JBL vs. Cena average Cena made Angle look weak and pathetic that's the guy Orton can't touch the guy who made Kurt Angle look bad ?

Randy Orton vs. Kurt Angle >>>> John Cena vs. Kurt Angle

Randy Orton vs. The Undertaker >>>>>> any John Cena fued.

Cena and Umaga a great match ?? That's a stretch wait that's a bigger stretch than the great wall of china that match was awful.

Paradox is a joke he claims he wants Orton to "succeed" yet he constantly bashes him when you confront him on it he takes the cop put "prove it" wow pathetic !!

Cena's title reign in 2005 was sub par at best his match with Jericho was no good his feud with JBL was average at best and he made Angle look weak so that feud failed.

If Orton had a feud with Edge it would surpass any of the Cena Edge matches.

I guess what I'm trying to say is John Cena can't lace Randy Orton's boots.

It's funny that I never said Orton was carried by anybody but I will work my way around that.

If the Cena/Angle feud was average and pathetic, it was because Angle forgot any heel psychology he ever learned if he learned any at all. He, the heel, tried to outpop Cena and it failed miserably. The Orton/Angle feud was average just like the Cena/Angle feud.

Umaga had has best match ever against Cena at the Royal Rumble in 2007 and you haven't explained why you think it's a terrible match. I'll be waiting for your explanation.

Pretty much Orton's best matches in his career have come from either Edge or Undertaker and that was before and during Cena's first championship reign. Since then, Cena has put on more consistently good matches with a variety of different opponents than Orton, plain and simple.

 

[Christian Battlez]

It's funny that I never said Orton was carried by anybody but I will work my way around that.

If the Cena/Angle feud was average and pathetic, it was because Angle forgot any heel psychology he ever learned if he learned any at all. He, the heel, tried to outpop Cena and it failed miserably. The Orton/Angle feud was average just like the Cena/Angle feud.

Umaga had has best match ever against Cena at the Royal Rumble in 2007 and you haven't explained why you think it's a terrible match. I'll be waiting for your explanation.

Pretty much Orton's best matches in his career have come from either Edge or Undertaker and that was before and during Cena's first championship reign. Since then, Cena has put on more consistently good matches with a variety of different opponents than Orton, plain and simple.

Angle can't help it if he was way more over than John Cena at the time. Umaga may have had his best match against Cena but to be fair Umaga was shit at the time and Orton never wrestled Umaga to prove if he could get a good match out of him or not. I won't say why I think it was a shit match yet seeing as how you asked southwind not me. Cena started putting on consistently good matches in 2008. His reign from 2005-2008 was terrible. Orton's big year was 2008 and overshadowed everything Cena did. Age of Orton more interesting than anything Cena has ever done. BTW you basically did say Orton was carried by his opponents when you said his best matches only came from Edge or Taker.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Angle can't help it if he was way more over than John Cena at the time. Umaga may have had his best match against Cena but to be fair Umaga was shit at the time and Orton never wrestled Umaga to prove if he could get a good match out of him or not. I won't say why I think it was a shit match yet seeing as how you asked southwind not me. Cena started putting on consistently good matches in 2008. His reign from 2005-2008 was terrible. Orton's big year was 2008 and overshadowed everything Cena did. Age of Orton more interesting than anything Cena has ever done. BTW you basically did say Orton was carried by his opponents when you said his best matches only came from Edge or Taker.

So if a heel is more over than a face then he should try to outpop the crowd. See the funny thing about that is, that means the heel is not doing his job. I don't care how over Angle was, he is the heel and he was supposed to display heel psychology during that feud which he did none of and you can't blame that on Cena.

How was Umaga shit at the time of the Royal Rumble. Nobody beat him before New Year's Revolution when he ran up against Cena and their Rumble match was better than that one.

From 2005-2008 Cena has put on great matches with Edge, HBK, HHH, Lashley, Umaga, Batista, got good matches out of Khali and even JBL.

Let's go through Orton's 2008 year....
Royal Rumble- Defeats Hardy
No Way Out- Gets disqualified against Cena
WM 24- Defeats HHH and Cena
Backlash- Loses to HHH
Judgment Day- Loses to HHH
One Night Stand- Loses to HHH and gets injured
Survivor Series- Defeats Team Batista
Armageddon- Loses to Batista

Wow what a great year. Three wins, four losses, and one disqualification. That was way better than Cena's three or four years as champion. Note the sarcasm.

 

[Christian Battlez]

So if a heel is more over than a face then he should try to outpop the crowd. See the funny thing about that is, that means the heel is not doing his job. I don't care how over Angle was, he is the heel and he was supposed to display heel psychology during that feud which he did none of and you can't blame that on Cena.

Explain how Angle used poor heel psychology Mr.expert.

How was Umaga shit at the time of the Royal Rumble. Nobody beat him before New Year's Revolution when he ran up against Cena and their Rumble match was better than that one.

Well maybe because all his matches were shit he was less than impressive and the only reason they stuck him against Cena was because Cena had already ran through pretty much everyone else in bad matches.

From 2005-2008 Cena has put on great matches with Edge, HBK, HHH, Lashley, Umaga, Batista, got good matches out of Khali and even JBL.

If Edge carried Orton in his matches then he obviously carried Cena too by your logic. Same with HBK. He had one good match with HHH, one with Lashley and one with JBL. Those matches with Khali were terrible as was the one with Khali. But I don't put that on Cena as both were inferior workers at the time.

Let's go through Orton's 2008 year....
Royal Rumble- Defeats Hardy
No Way Out- Gets disqualified against Cena
WM 24- Defeats HHH and Cena
Backlash- Loses to HHH
Judgment Day- Loses to HHH
One Night Stand- Loses to HHH and gets injured
Survivor Series- Defeats Team Batista
Armageddon- Loses to Batista

Wow what a great year. Three wins, four losses, and one disqualification. That was way better than Cena's three or four years as champion. Note the sarcasm.

Ok the tail end of 2007 starting in October till Wrestlemania Orton was at his best. and if you are going to discount Orton because of an injury you have no class. I can't help if HHH refused to put Orton over because he is a cunt as well. Cena's 3 or 4 year title reign was a down point in wrestling for sure. Sorry if im not comforming to whats cool and thats rooting for John Cena because the fan base has given up hope. Champions like Cena and Hogan don't work in this day and age.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Explain how Angle used poor heel psychology Mr.expert.



Well maybe because all his matches were shit he was less than impressive and the only reason they stuck him against Cena was because Cena had already ran through pretty much everyone else in bad matches.



If Edge carried Orton in his matches then he obviously carried Cena too by your logic. Same with HBK. He had one good match with HHH, one with Lashley and one with JBL. Those matches with Khali were terrible as was the one with Khali. But I don't put that on Cena as both were inferior workers at the time.

Let's go through Orton's 2008 year....
Royal Rumble- Defeats Hardy
No Way Out- Gets disqualified against Cena
WM 24- Defeats HHH and Cena
Backlash- Loses to HHH
Judgment Day- Loses to HHH
One Night Stand- Loses to HHH and gets injured
Survivor Series- Defeats Team Batista
Armageddon- Loses to Batista



Ok the tail end of 2007 starting in October till Wrestlemania Orton was at his best. and if you are going to discount Orton because of an injury you have no class. I can't help if HHH refused to put Orton over because he is a cunt as well. Cena's 3 or 4 year title reign was a down point in wrestling for sure. Sorry if im not comforming to whats cool and thats rooting for John Cena because the fan base has given up hope. Champions like Cena and Hogan don't work in this day and age.

Angle was using high impact after high impact move to try to get the crowd to cheer for him which is what a heel is not supposed to do. That's why RVD was a horrible heel during the Invasion. His moveset didn't change any and the crowd cheered for him so they had to turn him face. If Angle would have to what he was doing before, the matches would have been better.

How were Cena's matches with Edge bad because they were before his match with Umaga? I never said Edge carried his match with Orton. I think you need to learn what "being carried" means.

Orton was at his best from 2005-2006 when he was feuding with Undertaker and Mysterio. If Cena's reign was a downpoint for the WWE, then Orton didn't do anything to make it any better. And I'm not counting the months Orton was injured but still the rest of his 2008 wasn't as good as Cena's previous four.

 

[Southwind]

Angle was using high impact after high impact move to try to get the crowd to cheer for him which is what a heel is not supposed to do. That's why RVD was a horrible heel during the Invasion. His moveset didn't change any and the crowd cheered for him so they had to turn him face. If Angle would have to what he was doing before, the matches would have been better.

How were Cena's matches with Edge bad because they were before his match with Umaga? I never said Edge carried his match with Orton. I think you need to learn what "being carried" means.

Orton was at his best from 2005-2006 when he was feuding with Undertaker and Mysterio. If Cena's reign was a downpoint for the WWE, then Orton didn't do anything to make it any better. And I'm not counting the months Orton was injured but still the rest of his 2008 wasn't as good as Cena's previous four.

By saying that Angle was using high impact moves disqualifies you from ever saying Orton is boring again. I have argued with many over that fact that Orton can't use high impact moves that's not what heels do and it defies heel psychology. If you ever say Orton is boring again you are contradicting yourself as well as being hypocrite.

Your lame you implied up and down the line that Orton was carried don't take the cop out by saying that you never said it.

Cena's reign's were a down point just because a random group of people on these boards like you LJL have declared it "cool and smart" to root and defend Cena he has failed as the top face period.

I'll give you this your ten times more credible than paradox and actually have solid albeit flawed arguments.

What ices the cake to me is that most former wrestlers and promoters say Randy Orton is the best in the WWE including John Cena !!!

Read what DDP had to say in his interview he stated that the two wrestlers he wanted to face the most were the Rock and Randy Orton not John Cena.

DDP went onto say that when Orton turns into a babyface again "he will be the hottest thing in wrestling nobody will be able to touch him".

DDP's opinion >>>> LJL and Paradox's opinions.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

By saying that Angle was using high impact moves disqualifies you from ever saying Orton is boring again. I have argued with many over that fact that Orton can't use high impact moves that's not what heels do and it defies heel psychology. If you ever say Orton is boring again you are contradicting yourself as well as being hypocrite.

Your lame you implied up and down the line that Orton was carried don't take the cop out by saying that you never said it.

Cena's reign's were a down point just because a random group of people on these boards like you LJL have declared it "cool and smart" to root and defend Cena he has failed as the top face period.

I'll give you this your ten times more credible than paradox and actually have solid albeit flawed arguments.

What ices the cake to me is that most former wrestlers and promoters say Randy Orton is the best in the WWE including John Cena !!!

Read what DDP had to say in his interview he stated that the two wrestlers he wanted to face the most were the Rock and Randy Orton not John Cena.

DDP went onto say that when Orton turns into a babyface again "he will be the hottest thing in wrestling nobody will be able to touch him".

DDP's opinion >>>> LJL and Paradox's opinions.

You must be reading somebody's else post because I never said Orton was boring and Angle's use of high impact moves was bad for his heel persona. Read carefully next time.

When did I declare it was cool to root for Cena? I don't go around stating declarations about anything. If I see misconceptions made about another wrestler, I will try to clear them up. I don't care if it's Cena or anybody else.

I'll be waiting for that DDP/Orton match

If I thought Orton was "carried" in matches, I would use these words....

Orton was carried in that match against so and so....

Have I used those words in earlier posts. I believe I have not.

 

[Southwind]

Fair enough it was wrong for me to put you into the category with most Orton bashers. I apologize it's just that the whole "boring" argument is the main fallback most people have.

Maybe you didn't declare it but it's foolish to deny that it has become a fad around here people should have their own opinions not be herded into what some of the powers at be think.

 

[Paradox]

Wait the guy who has a gimmick that is failing now ? A gimmick than only works when your facing an actual drug addict like Jeff Hardy ?

Did you see his promo when he first started with 'Taker? Calling him out, and then turning around and calling him a fraud. Telling all the fans that they basically idiots for believing in the power that the Undertaker had. It was truly epic.

CM Punk = Boring his matches put me to sleep yeah he can talk but so can Santino Punk can't work a crowd in the ring and doesn't have any clue what heel psychology is he could learn a lot from Orton.

Your calling Punk boring, when it takes Orton longer to get to the ring than the Undertaker? The same man who hardly does anything in the ring? Go watch Punk's TLC match, or his Steel Cage match with Hardy and tell me he's boring. You can say Orton's slow because he's a heel, but when you take 2 minutes to walk down a ramp.... Come on.

How conveniant Paradox and LJL Orton was "carried" in all his matches yet Cena made all his great ?

You think that Umaga carried Cena? You think JBL carried Cena? You think that Shawn did every little thing in their match at Mania? Orton has the ability to put on great matches, we've seen it before. In every great match both men have to perform. I've been extremely annoyed with Orton as he can't do it....

Orton carried Cena in the Iron Man Match his twisted ideas made that match what it was.

Hmmm.... About that, I will give Orton credit he and Cena put on a hell of a match. They both did their share in the match. One man can't put on a great match. Orton did a great job, and it has me wondering where the hell has this been for the past four years?

If you have seen one Cena gimmick match you have seen them all JBL vs. Cena average

I'll break this here since you didn't put a period. His I Quit match against JBL was no where near his TLC match with Edge. His Last Man standing match was completely different than his match with Orton. How the hell are they even remotely close? Each have been unique, and very good.

Cena made Angle look weak and pathetic that's the guy Orton can't touch the guy who made Kurt Angle look bad ?

Isn't the heel suppose to look somewhat weak? I'm sure Austin, Rock, 'Taker never made Angle look weak in the slightest.

Randy Orton vs. Kurt Angle >>>> John Cena vs. Kurt Angle

Yes, I'll agree there. Cena and Angle never really fit well in my book.

Randy Orton vs. The Undertaker >>>>>> any John Cena fued.

I have to disagree, while Orton and 'Taker's feud was amazing. Cena has had some very good feuds. His feud with Edge was remarkable. Though I don't know if it was better. I still think a Cena 'Taker feud would top that... but will just have to wait.

Cena and Umaga a great match ?? That's a stretch wait that's a bigger stretch than the great wall of china that match was awful.

No it's not. That was a great match. Many here tend to agree with me on that one.

Paradox is a joke he claims he wants Orton to "succeed" yet he constantly bashes him when you confront him on it he takes the cop put "prove it" wow pathetic !!

I do want Orton to succeed. I saw what he was capable of in 05 and since he hasn't done anything! So I'm going to say I'm frustrated with him. Cop out? How? I'm asking you to prove that he's as great as you calm he is. If you can do that I might be able to change my mind, but what I've seen of him I think he's been lacking!

Cena's title reign in 2005 was sub par at best his match with Jericho was no good his feud with JBL was average at best and he made Angle look weak so that feud failed.

So if the heel looks weak then the feud is a failure? How many times has a heel looked weak? It wasn't Cena's best reign... Wasn't that bad though. His match with Jericho was good.

If Orton had a feud with Edge it would surpass any of the Cena Edge matches.

Doubt it, but time will tell.

I guess what I'm trying to say is John Cena can't lace Randy Orton's boots.

Really this again?

 

[Southwind]

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you Paradox, There's really no point in us arguing back and forth. You've stated your points and I have stated mine, There is no way your going to ever convince me John Cena can touch Randy Orton, and I'm never going to convince you that Randy Orton can touch John Cena.

So I'll end my part in this little debate by saying I respectfully disagree with your opinion that John Cena is better than Randy Orton.

 

[Christian Battlez]

Did you see his promo when he first started with 'Taker? Calling him out, and then turning around and calling him a fraud. Telling all the fans that they basically idiots for believing in the power that the Undertaker had. It was truly epic.

But Orton's impact was bigger. Hitting him with an RKO and costing Taker a WWE title match against JBL on his first night on SD. Truly epic.

Your calling Punk boring, when it takes Orton longer to get to the ring than the Undertaker? The same man who hardly does anything in the ring? Go watch Punk's TLC match, or his Steel Cage match with Hardy and tell me he's boring. You can say Orton's slow because he's a heel, but when you take 2 minutes to walk down a ramp.... Come on.

So is Taker boring or HHH boring because they have long entrances. Hardly does anything in the ring? Orton's gimmick is a sociopathic killer mindseted loose cannon. He stomps away at every appendage and takes solice in doing so. He walks menacingly to make his opponents think about it. Come on man thats good heel psychology. So what if Punk is good in stipulation matches. I have never seen a Punk match in WWE thats better than the best Orton matches that didn't have a stipulation attached. Orton > Punk and I like Punk.

You think that Umaga carried Cena? You think JBL carried Cena? You think that Shawn did every little thing in their match at Mania? Orton has the ability to put on great matches, we've seen it before. In every great match both men have to perform. I've been extremely annoyed with Orton as he can't do it....

No...No...Yes. Shawn wrestled circles around Cena. It was like Regal/Goldberg from WCW all over again. The last few minutes were good but otherwise HBK made Cena look like a joke. Your right both men do have to perform yet I fail to see where Orton hasn't. Show me examples where he hasn't.

Hmmm.... About that, I will give Orton credit he and Cena put on a hell of a match. They both did their share in the match. One man can't put on a great match. Orton did a great job, and it has me wondering where the hell has this been for the past four years?

Orton was calling the shots it was obvious. Cena did the same spots multiple times. An Ironman match with Cena and Orton without the weapons would have been terrible. The match was alright but far from either mans best work. He's been right in front of your face.

I do want Orton to succeed. I saw what he was capable of in 05 and since he hasn't done anything! So I'm going to say I'm frustrated with him. Cop out? How? I'm asking you to prove that he's as great as you calm he is. If you can do that I might be able to change my mind, but what I've seen of him I think he's been lacking!

I'm trying but your too stubborn to understand lol.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Did you see his promo when he first started with 'Taker? Calling him out, and then turning around and calling him a fraud. Telling all the fans that they basically idiots for believing in the power that the Undertaker had. It was truly epic.

But Orton's impact was bigger. Hitting him with an RKO and costing Taker a WWE title match against JBL on his first night on SD. Truly epic.





So is Taker boring or HHH boring because they have long entrances. Hardly does anything in the ring? Orton's gimmick is a sociopathic killer mindseted loose cannon. He stomps away at every appendage and takes solice in doing so. He walks menacingly to make his opponents think about it. Come on man thats good heel psychology. So what if Punk is good in stipulation matches. I have never seen a Punk match in WWE thats better than the best Orton matches that didn't have a stipulation attached. Orton > Punk and I like Punk.






No...No...Yes. Shawn wrestled circles around Cena. It was like Regal/Goldberg from WCW all over again. The last few minutes were good but otherwise HBK made Cena look like a joke. Your right both men do have to perform yet I fail to see where Orton hasn't. Show me examples where he hasn't.





Orton was calling the shots it was obvious. Cena did the same spots multiple times. An Ironman match with Cena and Orton without the weapons would have been terrible. The match was alright but far from either mans best work. He's been right in front of your face.



I'm trying but your too stubborn to understand lol.

Shawn wrestling circles around Cena is laughable. Cena was able to get an uninterested HBK to finally have a decent match for the first time in two years. I wouldn't say Orton RKO'ing Undertaker on his first night in SD was truly epic. It would be epic if that would have started the feud but it merely continued it.

 

[Southwind]

CM Punk is a bad argument he had a good character but looks like he is going back to the mid-card obviously the powers at be have no faith in Punk.

I find him to be boring yeah but I can see why people might think Orton is boring to why are we still arguing here it's pointless.

Battlez and Myself think Orton is better it's not going to change.

LJL and Paradox think Cena is better it's not going to change.

They are both great performers and will be the top heel and face for the next decade.

CM Punk doesn't belong in this argument he has had three cheap and overall unspectacular reigns and has been buried pretty often as well.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I was enjoying reading over this argument. This has been a good one. Then you had to go and say something like this:

I do want Orton to succeed. I saw what he was capable of in 05 and since he hasn't done anything! So I'm going to say I'm frustrated with him. Cop out? How? I'm asking you to prove that he's as great as you calm he is. If you can do that I might be able to change my mind, but what I've seen of him I think he's been lacking!

Double Standard much? And you say I apply double standards. HMMMMMM...

Isn't this the same argument that I have been using for Cena? Liked him in '07. Seen what he could do, but lately, he has been shit. Yea, I think that is the same argument that I have used for Cena. I've also stated the matches of his that I found to be horrible, but since you said that you liked them, that discredited me altogether.

Also, I have pointed out Orton matches to you that were good, but you just over look them.

The same bullshit arguments that you complain about in the Cena thread you are using against Orton. Sad.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Shawn wrestling circles around Cena is laughable. Cena was able to get an uninterested HBK to finally have a decent match for the first time in two years. I wouldn't say Orton RKO'ing Undertaker on his first night in SD was truly epic. It would be epic if that would have started the feud but it merely continued it.

Who says that HBK/Cena was HBK's first good match in about two years? You? So that makes it so, right? Please. Shawn was having great matches throughout '05 with Angle. He also had that great match with Benjamin in '05 on Raw. He was involved in a great feud with RatedRKO in '06 and those matches were good as well.

While Cena/HBK was a great match. It was just another day at the office for HBK. Cena damn sure didn't pull the best out of HBK. HBK needs no one to do that.

 

[E-Money]

i'd have to agree with the notion that orton is probably the best hell in the wwe right now. what puzzles me is why he is being put together with kofi?? Orton, going from wwe champ to mid card feud? Are they down playing orton or making a big push for kofi? If it's the ladder of the two i'm sitting asking myself why kofi? why not M.V.P.?? Just my thoughts.


side note here, Christian needs to get out of ECW and get on Raw or SD, he deserves better.

 

[mayhem]

Orton is a great heel but he rarely turns face so he's limited in who he faces as in top talent. Kofi Kingston can't really be classed as an established main eventer yet so Orton is wasting his talent in his career as he can only stay on Raw. Who agrees?